ESPN has issued its reply brief in their case vs Ohio. I've used up all my Christmas cheer and would still like to see ESPN win this case and Ohio get LOIC as a result. Even if there are no further NCAA sanctions, I'd enjoy watching more Ohio arrogance go down in flames.
ESPN reply in Ohio FERPA case
I wish it would happen but I'm not feeling confident in our court system to do what's right.
Why is that? Simply because its in Ohio?
Yes because it's in Ohio and because courts are overly cautious about setting precedence.
I'm no lawyer, but ESPN's response seems to show that the precedent for this type of case not being covered by FERPA has already been set. I hope this case has enough national attention that the Ohio SC won't do anything improper. I think that's why they got the Feds involved so that they can have another level of blame if tosu doesn't win this case.
Cases have been decided in that direction, but none in Ohio. That would make this precedential, even if it isn't groundbreaking.
Although, as this is Ohio's highest court, they likely won't be that cautious in setting precedent since that is what the highest court is supposed to do/does on a daily basis.
public records decisions have trended towards narrowing access to public records in a wide range of cases. I'd be surprised if they reversed course in this case. My guess is a 5-2 or 6-1 decision in Ohio State's favor with Pfeiffer and maybe McGee Brown dissenting.
Also, under Ohio State's record retention policy, they've probably destroyed a lot of the records ESPN requested. There's no reason they'd still have emails from 2005 forward.
According to the schedule you provided, if the University considered this correspondence to be part of the student's record, policy would require them to be retained until one year after the departure of the student from the school.
First, I think the court has all of the documents anyway. Second, wouldn't there be a court order in place to specifically not destroy any documents involved in the case? It doesn't make sense for OSU to be able to destroy documents when the court hasn't ruled one way or another.
True, but how many students from 2005/2006/2007 are still in school?
How many were still in school 12 months prior to the date of ESPN's request?
Could this bust them down to Community College level? I think tOSCC has a great look to it.
If the NCAA gets definitive evidence that Ohio lied to them, they can revisit the case or open another one. Ohio avoided the punishment they deserved, but ESPN is a pretty powerful enemy to make. ESPN will probably deduce that if Ohio is hiding something, it's because they actually have something to hide.
At any rate, Ohio is keeping their investigation in the news, even after the "punishment" has been handed down. That can only be a positive for Michigan.
ESPN has devoted quite a lot of time and money to taking on Ohio in Ohio via this court challenge. One suspects that they have some knowledge of what is contained within the emails or else they would not be pursuing it with this type of legal action. I suspect that Ohio is probably more worried that someone else in possession of these emails (Sarniak for example) flips.
Certainly, for all their limitations as a media/news source ESPN is disturbingly powerful and influential in the modern sports landscape. They are the wrong enemy to make for Ohio; this is good for us.
If Sarniak turns over the tressel emails that specifically mention that Smith had knowledge of "tat-gate" .... then tsio gets nuked.
... and this isn't just a "pipe dream". This could happen because one email with a "cc" on it would be enough.
...and these aren't mutually exclusive, is messages between the athletic department and DiGeronimo. From the reaction of Posey's mother, I've suspected that it was the athletic department that had arranged those jobs for the players. Anything showing that they knew they were getting them jobs they weren't qualified for or were getting paid for work they weren't doing would be another nuke.
A third possibility is internal documents relating to Pryor's free run of the equipment lockers. Or anything relating to a coverup of the cars. There's no end to the mines that could possibly go off if anyone ever gets uncensored access to internal communications.
The second situation is very possible. After all, it was Tressel who got his start qb at Youngstown State (Ray Isaac) a "job" that turned out to be bs years ago.
And we already know that the car dealer that provided Archie's car also employs football players during the summer. It's about halfway down in this article:
Ohio State's Top Compliance Person Drives Courtesy Car
Yes, I know that's not a violation, but there are plenty of ways things could have gone wrong.
Information showing that the whole athletic department knew about Pryor, Tressel, Sarniak, etc. well before any action was taken.
Walks like a duck, sounds like a duck. Ohio is at it again. Tapdance some more Smith and Gee.
is providing some great entertainment - how come people do not appreciate them more just for that reason
I stood up for Posey for what seemed his disproportionate punishment and got pilloried, so I don't expect this to go over well either, but two things should be considered:
1. ESPN, in this situation, has motivations that are not far detached from those of the Freep in their witch hunt. ESPN is not looking for justice, but for readership, and nothing about this sort of request is inherently for the good of football, the players or the institutions.
2. OSU is not alone in their resistance to this request. Student privacy is important, and several university assocations have submitted briefs defending OSU's position.
This is not a trivial matter (more important than whether players got free tattoos or deals on cars), and there are few reasons for coming to a preference that are more trivial than the downfall of the Buckeyes.
I somewhat agree with you, but by breaking the rules, don't you think it is somewhat reasonable that the students lose some of their privacy? If someone breaks the law, their name and crime are usually released and covered by the press (there are exceptions). This is basically the equivalant in the sports world.
Sure, I think that is fair. I don't have any sort of legal background so I can't really comment on where the privacy line actually is. I just know that some people are way too flippant about this, and I won't be be bothered if OSU wins.
This isn't about student privacy Brad; this is about covering up inappropriate communication between a representative of Ohio and an external individual. This is not relating to education records at all; rather, Ohio taking a scorched earth approach to protection of their interest. Certainly, the institution could care less about Pryor's privacy.
This is true to an extent. But as they say in the legal world, bad facts make bad law. There isn't a solid legal boundary between the release of these documents and the release of documents elsewhere when an innocent student is harmed.
is the task before the court. They won't negate FERPA altogether and I'll be very surprised if they create a situation in which all University correspondence that might in any way reference a student is protected under any and all circumstances from any open-records request.
As I am aware from my reading about university obligations related to my own academic information/records FERPA is hardly an iron clad protection from any/all open records request. Indeed, the questions before the court relate to student related communication and neither student records/academic information. I suspect the court will rule a limited exemption for ESPN related to the specific emails between Sarniak/Tressel (unredacted) with clear instruction regarding student records/academic information to instruct future questions.
which you suggest to be requisite for such cases. All too often, the invocation of this fantasized boundary is the work of lawyers who seek to further their own ends. Granted, student rights to privacy are important, but now the talk of this right seems to be a transparent effort to protect an unethical school---not to protect an innnocent student.
Remember, the information sought by ESPN is not the record of a student but the conversations between a lying coach and a "low life" who once tried to bribe police and who now has been paying a player under the table. Regarding the payments, Pryor waived his privacy rights to that information when he himself publicly revealed the payments (in an effort to avoid further penalty from the NFL).
If there is truly personal information that relates to his school performance, fine--let us consider his rights to keep that confidential.
But do not forget that he and his school admittedly lied and violated rules--and in so doing, cheated other students and their schools.
-what about the rights of innocent students who were harmed by OSU's cheating---eg the athletes in the Sugar Bowl who lost NFL draft value when they had to play ineligible players?
-what about the monetary losses of schools that had to play vs. a school that disregarded the rules?
-what about the public's right to know if the NCAA is not doing its job in policing t'o the schools?
So, when lawyers conveniently ignore such questions about competing rights, please spare us here from the song and dance about a "solid legal boundary.."
And please do not tell us that OSU is stonewalliing to protect the rights of the rights of a student against the release of academic information. It is seeking to cover the tracks of the admistrators and board--who are responsible for this scandal.
Did Pryor sign a release allowing for this information, whatever it is, to be communicated to Sarniak?
They've already demonstrated their concern for confidentiality.
at the very least, OSU would look hypocritical if it released private information about a student to a "low-life" who was known to have paid Pryor in the past , who was told by the NCAA he could no longer do this, and who nevertheless continued to do so.
The obvious question is: why did Tressel spend hours on the phone and use scores of text mails and emails to communicative with Sarniak (and not with TP's own parents or those of any of the other Tat-five)? I have heard no convincing explanation so far, have you?
I wonder: Did Tressel know Sarniak was still paying TP? Was Tressel so unusually communicative with Sarniak in the hopes that further payoffs from Sarniak could keep Pryor from leaving school (which he at first promised to do). Did Tressel also hope to keep TP from squealing?
I am quite certain that the three (if not more) national university associations that submitted legal briefs in support of OSU is not particularly concerned with OSU's athletic sanctions either.
If this gets resolved so that OSU never has to release the information and the spector of "Ohio got away with it" lingers on for eternity, I am perfectly willing to right that off as the cost of universities providing for the well being of their students.
Brad, I am aware of the university associations submission of supportive legal briefs in support of Ohio State's position in this case. Of course, one would expect university associations to partner with their membership to protect their collective interest of proprietary information management (regardless of the legal veracity of their claim in support).
Do you really think that protecting emails/texts from a member of the football administration/pseudo faculty (head coach Jim Tressel) to an individual not affiliated with the university (Sarniak) fall under the 'well being' of students as might be protected under the FERPA legislation? Certainly, at this point it is unclear why Tressel was sending this communication to Pryor's "mentor" and if appropriate releases had been achieved for that material. Further, it is unclear (but will need to be clarified for the supreme court in Ohio) what, if any, of that material might have related to Pryor's personal information or academic status (as protected by FERPA). Certainly, the FERPA legislation was never intended as a stop loss catch-all for any/all student related material in order to enable universities to guard their own interests. I suspect that the court will recognize this and make a determination that at once protects student adademic information while leaving the door open for communication that is unrelated to the need for FERPA safeguards (such as the Tressel/Sarniak emails).
Ohio is hardly protecting the well being of their students; I am sure ESPN will invest in this case as long as necessary.
Reasonable interpretation of legislation fergodsakes.
I get what you're saying about readership, but if you're ascribing ulterior motives to ESPN, surely Ohio State has them too. Nobody could make the case with a straight face that Ohio State is genuinely concerned with student privacy and nothing more. After all, ESPN is asking for emails between administrators and employees that contain a name that doesn't belong to a student - there's nothing overtly student-related about their request, on its face.
Reading that document was interesting. ESPN brings (non-lawyer) some valid points and really seems to be pointing out osu's defense for everything of 6 yr old child saying "Not it." I would guarantee there are some juicy details in those emails or ESPN wouldn't be investing the resources they are into this. I hope they win & this opens up more ugliness for osu.
In reference to the above post about protecting student's privacy; that's actually addressed in these documents & ESPN brings up a great defense. They're not asking for the students grades, medical records, etc. They're asking for 3rd party emails from the athletic department regarding a student that has nothing to do with their education. Protecting truly private matters is important, which is what FERPA intends to do. But, I think this is not about the 'educational' records as it is athletic.
It almost seems ESPN is getting pissed off by osu's arrogance in not even responding to their challenges. I bet behind the scenes osu is going "oh fck, oh fck, court please help us on this."
I just hope osu gets bent over like they should...My soon to be brother in-law is getting so annoying with the arrogance. osu fans literally think they're going to win 10 straight years again because of meyer & he also believes they're going to run a pro style offense because of what urbie told dunn ( i laughed & said i hope b. dunn enjoys blocking for braxton).
of questionable ethics (as pointed out by two of their previous ombudsmen) over the years makes this the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. I would like to see Ohio burn in hell though.
I am forced to wonder if ESPN has pursued it this far because they have what they consider a reliable lead on what is in these e-mails. The tone of the reply is basically that Ohio is using a conveniently vague interpretation of FERPA that would allow even the maintenance records on the campus restrooms to be protected, and Ohio being Ohio, you almost can't help but assume there is somethingthe NCAA doesn't yet know that they would rather not be part of an ESPN story. It just seems like ESPN manhandling these e-mails from them at some point, printing a story which makes ESPN look more astute as an investigative body than the NCAA, and the resulting fallout would be, for them, unfortunate.
I wonder that as well. And just as importantly OSU KNOWS what's contained in those emails which explains why they are fighting release of them equally hard.
To quote Shakespeare "me thinks the lady doth protest too much".
Right. It's pretty obvious Ohio's motivation throughout the entire investigation has been to maintain its *snicker* sovereignty, and in no way cooperate with any governing body, and even went so far as to obstruct, and thumb its nose at outsiders. This FERPA case is no different. They're simply stalling and deflecting to avoid punishment, and trying to maintain a ridiculous posture of standing apart defiantly. They act almost like they're an independant school.
OSU turned it over to NCAA, so nothing further will come from this other than the public probably getting to see some interesting documents that will hopefully further stain OSU.
How do you know that? I didn't see a reference in my quick scan of thence report.
I would be surprised if the NCAA doesn't already have the records ESPN is seeking. I'm guessing there is an exemption that allows the NCAA to review FERPA protected information so I don't see how this case would possibly result in any more sanctions for OSU.
There is such an exemption, but the NCAA has no means by which to compel a school to provide the records.
If the NCAA has seen these records and if there is damning evidence there that goes beyond what was acknowledged in the COI findings, that would be a much bigger story than any one school's violations could ever be.
I'd be surprised if the NCAA had not seen these documents. I know the NCAA does not have subpoena power over the general public, but don't member schools have to turn over requested documents or face sanctions? I'm pretty sure the NCAA has the right to sanction individual athletes who do not submit to interview requests so it would only make sense that the NCAA has similar power to sanction member instiutions who do not turn over requested documents.
Presumably the NCAA has seen everything they asked for. What we don't know is whether they asked for everything ESPN has. It's hard not to have some doubts about the thoroughness of their investigation.
This whole thing about ESPN asking more questions than the NCAA (potentially) speaks to one wondering what the World Wide Leader's intentions are related to this whole investigation. Is it for E:60; a longer documentary, Mag article, to scoop Yahoo and SI after gettting left in the dust last spring? Is it book related or all of the above? One wonders what would compel ESPN to spend this much money and effort...
My best guess is that ESPN has a source, but they need confirmations before they can run the story.
As far as the time and expense, no self-respecting news organization would just give up after getting stonewalled. I don't think the legal process in this case should be especially expensive. There won't be protracted litigation.
ESPN, to my knowledge, hired Ohio's (foremost!?!) expert, one David Greiner, in this area. They are willing to follow this, apparently, to its conclusion. If the decision does not go their way in Ohio...
I do not trust that confederation of dunces to do the right thing. In the past 15 years the court has become more wrapped up in self-aggrandizement and unneccessary nine-figure renovations of new headquarters buildings than actually, you know, addressing the problems that face the state, such as school funding.
Yes, the NCAA has already obtained all of the information that ESPN is seeking from tOSU. I know that the e-mails between Tressel and Cicero can be read online and that they definitely went through all e-mails pertaining to any players, staff, and others involved like Sarniak and Digeronimo. The NCAA had all of this information that ESPN is seeking before they rendered their punishment to the school . NCAA investigators have moved out of Columbus and no further punishment will be handed down to the school. ESPN is just seeking this information for obvious reasons and their interest lies more in the business of creating and maintaining scandal and keeping certain matters like this relevant. They are killing two birds with one stone and at the same time attempting to de-value the Big Ten by destroying the reputation of one of it's most significant members. Had ESPN owned the Big Ten broadcasting rights, there would be no lawsuit right now because ESPN would not want to lessen the value of their own product. Maybe someone can answer this because I do not know but is there something inFERPA that gives ESPN access to athletes e-mails or are they trying to separate the e-mails from all of the other prohibitations in FERPA and say that because these are just e-mails. Are they admitting that they know that some e-mails will be from student to professor but some might not be and they believe they have the right to access those e-mails not related specifically to academics? If this is the case then I do not think the school should give up the students privacy solely for the purpose of helping ESPN sell papers. If the school does give up students information, can the students then take legal action against the school for doing so?
to call the network eSECpn. try to get that right for your next lengthy, highly informative post
Is this all happening on the 28th?
Response to Columbus Dispatch coverage...
He spelled GERG wrong