ESPN investigating possible OSU point shaving scandal
it sounded like it was football but they didn't say anything specific about it.
That could add a whole new level of depth to the problems there. Of course, we can't assume that there even is an investigation given that the report comes from local radio.
EDIT: I don't even want this to be true. It would hurt the rivalry and the Big Ten.
I want THE Ohio State University to be exposed for every bit of cheating it has ever done. I want John Lennon's "Instant Karma" to be their de facto theme song for the next ten years. They cheated for at least ten years; it's about time they paid for it.
I want the scandal to be so bad that even parents in Ohio tell their kids not to play there. They thought the Ed Martin scandal was funny? They thought "stretchgate" was funny? They thought the Michigan coaching change fiasco was funny? Great.
Now who's laughing?
Point shaving? How rich is that? Yes, please add the feds into this investigation.
Can someone put a popcorn machine into the sidebar? It could happily pop away to remind us of the spectacle unfolding.
Not quite on topic, but how the hell is point shaving a federal crime?
Because you are falsely advertising something that is rigged as a game of "chance".
Point shaving can sometimes imply involvement with the Italian Independent Businessman's Association or groups like it.
Doesn't make any sense for it to be football. JT is good against the spread.
Yeah, they were something like 11-2 against the spread last year. Tressel's reputation actually made (past tense!) his teams good bets. The lines are set to get action on both sides and Tressel's rep for holding his teams back pushed point spreads down.
OSU u dun goofed.jpg
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there isn't anything I wouldn't believe
Edit: Embed isnt working, so here's the link:
.....I thought there was something extra refreshing about last night's deluge. I felt another OSU scandal in there, and it was a nice feeling.
That would be the ultimate popcorn moment ...bring on Ms. Johansson,
Orville himself could not have imagined popcorn would become such a hot commodity.....
Hmm someone might want to run a site search, because I think this story has legs ;) COUGH COUGH!
The majority of sports fans don't really care about players getting extra benefits. It does nothing to interrupt our enjoyment of the game. But point shaving? That's another matter entirely and it's not taken lightly by sports fans.
If extra benefits result in a team getting a competitive advantage, I certainly care about them.
Right, and as a Michigan fan I'm right there with you. I'm just talking about sports fans in general. The backlash would be much greater nationwide for an OSU point shaving scandal than a loaner car scandal.
My head hurts just thinking about an OSU fan arguing that if it wasn't for the point shaving scandals of the 2000's then OSU would have won multiple national championships...
All you have to do to make their heads explode at that point is just smile and nod. Agreeing with them will make them that much more furious. If only they didn't have a lying, cheating coach, they might have been so much better off.
i'd be surprised if they were trying to cheat to win and point shaving at the same time.
They said it would involve former players, and the cheating to win is a much more recent event.
Pryor is a former player. Just sayin.
I'm not sure I see the contradiction. It seems to me it'd be a lot easier to shave, without suspicion, as a 30-point favorite than it would be in a tossup.
It appears the point shaving is tied to basketball, but there aren't any concrete articles. Apparently Ohio State didn't cover the spread in quite a few games, by close margins, and in a lot of those games they were missing easy baskets late, and consistently missing the front end of 1 and 1's
Basketball would be better for Michigan. It points to Lack of Institutional Control, whereas Pryor, who would be the most likely culprit at QB just looks like him being an ass.
It's hard to shave points in football--too many people need to be in on it.
It's not like they would hit the football program any harder and they won't give the entire athletic department the death penalty.
Their football program has already fired the coach and is headed for NCAA sanctions. At this point I'd rather see their basketball program also get nailed, rather than have it remain intact while the football gets a marginally worse punishment.
I don't think the NCAA would get involved even if point shaving was discovered, unless it was part of a larger LOIC charge (which it might well be, given that was the same time that O'Brien was paying players). I know that Northwestern didn't suffer any NCAA consequences for their mid 90s point shaving scandals (Dennis Lundy and Dion Lee).
I don't remember the specifics of the Northwestern case, but I seem to recall Arizona State getting in trouble. Doesn't the NCAA pretty much have to investigate? Point-shaving gets right down to the integrity of the games themselves.
Neither Northwestern nor Arizona State got any kind of NCAA sanctions. Both those situations were explained as the actions of rogue players either gambling themselves or being paid by gamblers.
I think the NCAA would investigate, but I don't think they'd hand down penalties, unless OSU had gamblers around the program and should have known about it (ie, kind of a Reggie Bush thing).
I can't believe point shaving apparently isn't a big deal to the NCAA. Of all the things to care about, going back and seeing NCAA games that were fradulaunt should be a bigger deal than cars or cash, IMO.
If you're going to hand down program sanctions for money changing hands for playing, shouldn't it be worse when the payments involve fixed games?
I think most examples have been individual cases that the universities have acted very aggressively in cooperating with the NCAA and FBI when suspicions became known. I think the logic is (and I'm just guessing here) is that illegal benefits grant a competitive advantage and call amateurism into question, and academic fraud challenges the ideal of the student-athlete while point shaving is a criminal act of an individual.
Now if a coach or administrator was aware of point shaving and didn't cooperate with authorities, or if they investigated and found out a point shaving athlete was suddently waving unexplained cash around and didn't ask questions, that would likely bring the NCAA hammer down.
One of the articles I looked at in re the Northwestern thing mentioned that the NCAA has connections in Vegas that alert them anytime they see unusual gambling activity or unusual line swings. This would suggest that the NCAA sees point shaving as something that member institutions are not likely to detect. In other words, the NCAA does regard it as a big deal, but a deal somewhat out of the normal scope of compliance departments.
Just posting to say that your last paragraph is really interesting, and probably a good indicator of what goes on.
No one is getting the death penalty, regardless of what anyone would like.
Point shaving is kind of a weird issue. By its very nature, it's going to be limited to a very small number of people and no one in the administration is going to know. The only person who could predictably influence a game's outcome is the starting QB (Pryor in OSU's case) and at this point, OSU can probably throw up its collective hands and say Pryor is a sociopath. If OSU's starting point guard was point shaving, it would be another data point to say the athletic department is totally out of control, which would in theory open OSU up to LOIC and the most severe penalties.
RIght. This is why USC got nailed so hard--Reggie Bush was the only football player against whom the NCAA allegations stuck, but then there was OJ Mayo in hoops (and also the women's tennis team!). Had the violations been limited to just one sport they sanctions likely would have been much less.
Agreed. It rarely comes up in football...also too risky you will actually lose the game if a few things go wrong.
In Basketball and Football. Program didn't get hit too hard because the coaches knew nothing and really could not have known anything. It all started with one oft-injured running back named Scooter McDougal. He was quite talented when healthy, but after I found out about the point shaving, I remember thinking he was the perfect guy for it.
Being oft-injured, he only got a little game time each game. This was during the early Tom Amstutz years, when Toledo was actually one of the best little teams in the nation. Scooter was capable of big runs if the team were losing or it was a narrow game, but he did seem to fumble more than his fair share. Nobody really cared, because he only seemed to fumble in big wins...
I could believe this about Tresselball. With his conservative ways it might have been easier for a player to 'drop' a pass or 'fumble' a handoff therefore leading to another 29 yd FG.
Edit: Posted after the basketball post above. Move along.
Not to mention, they could have run up the score a LOT more in the '09 UoM-OSU game. If I recall, we beat the spread in that game.
Food for thought.
I would be suprised if this winds up being true based on how many games they won. And if it is former players what does it really matter at this point?
How many games they won doesn't matter...it's how they did vs. the line
...I still doubt is true and will believe it when I see it. Also, seems like a very hard thing to prove
Didn't say they did it or it could be proved...just that games won doesn't matter
MGoBlog combined with Maurice Moss? I heartily approve.
Actually, this has been rumored on and off for awhile. There is a guy who goes by NevadaBuck who apparently was close to OSU but who was banned from all contact with the OSU Athletic Department a couple of years ago. Rumors are his family is in the casino business and he was very close to players on both the basketball and football teams. No one has ever been able to find proof of actual point shaving or any other violations, though it clearly was a situation that looked bad. I would not hold my breath on this one bearing fruit.
Is there any website that has the history of gambling lines? I can't find one but would love to compare the game scores.
I don't think this is the 10, because that was supposed to happen to a football program. This is alleged to be basketball-related.
I will believe it when I see it. I doubt it is true.
Right -- it makes no sense that a group of guys that have no problem selling their gold pants for beating their most "hated rival" would also shave a little to miss the spread on a few games....
Nobody is saying that wouldn't have...ehhh....an air of plausibility to it. But point shaving is one very small step away from the worst nightmare of any sporting organization, including the NCAA. Therefore one should tread lightly around such an accusation. "I'll believe it when I see it" is very appropriate. I will believe it when I see it and not a minute before, because it's an astronomically serious accusation.
Need a drink
Has there ever been any football point shaving scandals that have been proven before? Unless major parts of the offenses were on the take, it just seems logistically impossible. Running backs get rotated and pass plays alternate so it would be hard for any of them to do it, and a QB that kept missing key throws or screwing up handoffs gets pulled even when they are Terrelle Pryor.
But what about defensive players in football. Consider this scenario (hypo):
OSU favored by 45 points to Little Sisters of the Poor. OSU is up 49-0 and is playing "Tresselball". Who is to say that a routine tackle couldn't be "missed" and give up that late touchdown for Little Sisters to cover the spread. On a good team, this situation presents itself more often than normal. I could definitely see that happening, especially at a fine upstanding institution such as Ohio.
While I could see that happening in theory, I can't think of too many OSU football games where they gave up a bunch of late scores. They've ranked among the national leaders in opposing PPG on a regular basis. And you'd need the cooperation of a lot more players to pull off point-shaving in football. One or two guys can't do it alone (whereas they could in basketball, especially if one is the point guard).
It's obviously easier in bball but if it was a qb he could "just miss" throws, fumble a snap on a key drive, throw to the check down when someone's open deeper for a 3rd down conversion, not get the snap off in time, change the play incorrectly, etc.
It would almost have to be a qb and he'd have to be somewhat smart about it and get lucky every now and then, but it's possible for 1 player in football to accomplish it occasionally.
Without being able to reference an example, i've watched plenty of games where important players have had really "off" games. They're human, so that happens.
I'm just saying it's more possible than it seems imo, while still not being as easy as bball.
I mean, but what's not to guarantee that your 3rd string offense running Tresselball doesn't immediately score again? I can remember distinct games vs. Eastern where our 3rd stringers just kept marching down the field and scoring, even with a minimum of passing plays.
Sure, as a defender you can miss some tackles, or get blocked intentionally, but there's just no way that you can consistently do that and still start (well, for OSU at least.) And if you're on the 2nd/3rd string, I don't think you're trying to look terrible, unless you want to guarantee that you're never going to see the field again. Add onto that the fact that no defender will be able to consistenly alter the outcome of any play, and defensive point is impossible. Even if you miss the tackle the CB/Safety probably cleans it up. And how many times are you really that close to the spread in games vs terrible opponents?
Point shaving in basketball is light years easier in comparison. Fewer players with bigger roles lead to less opportunities for your teammates to cover for your mistakes. A slight hesitation on a pass or a little extra on a shot easily nixes an entire posession. It's probably undetectable, and many opportunities arise because there are so many games.
I've never even heard of a football team being accused of point-shaving before, let alone it being proven. I agree--it seems like it would be almost impossible to pull that off. You would probably need multiple players involved, or else a coordinator or head coach. I realize Tressel was dirtbag, but this seems incredible to me.
One of the players was charged federally for point shaving and trying to recruit other players to do it. That's the only example off the top of my head.
Wow, so I guess it has been alleged before. Thanks for pointing that out.
You haven't already forgotten about Paul "Wrecking" Crewe have you?
Toledo football, a few years back. Feds got involved, don't remember if the NCAA did much, if anything. I'm not aware of it happening at Ohio State, though.
Dennis Lundy of Northwestern pled guilty in 1999 to perjury related to point shaving in the early 1990s. Lundy, a running back, was betting against Northwestern and fumbled intentionally on the goal line against Iowa, as well as running an incorrect play on a 2-point conversion against Ohio State.
Not only that, but there are connections b/tw OSU and the Toledo staff that got busted, FWIW
If you Google "Ohio State Point Shaving," there's already been a good amount of talk.
I really doubt this is true. The atmosphere around OSU's program might be corrupt, but it's not that kind of corrupt.
Of course no one in in authority at OSU would tolerate that kind of cheating. But suppose you have an atmosphere with players freely taking illegal (to the NCAA) benefits and various shady characters hanging around. It's not a stretch to see things get out of hand.
It is difficult to shave points in football, as has been pointed out. If it happened at all, basketball is certainly much more likely.
It is very very easy to throw points in a football game if you are a quarterback or an offensive lineman on a passing down . . . .
I've been wondering when this might hit mainstream. I think this is one of the reasons that Herbie got outa town. There's been a history of really shady stuff in Columbus. It should not really surprise anyone who has been paying attention to the situation down there that players might have thrown games/points. These stories have legs, and the OSU fans themselves have been talking about it for months.
Many up thread have said (some not jokingly) that the shaving could be tied to Tresselball (also known as Lloydball in these parts). To me, this is silly. Tressel did a lot of things, and he certainly is not above cheating, but what would be his incentive to shave points (i.e. win by less)? This type of thing generally happens because some book maker or gambler pays someone off to not cover the spread. Tress was making several million a year, so I doubt that a bag with $30,000 would have him considering this. (Some free tats, maybe).
To the extent that there is a shaving incident, it likely involved a player (or multiple players). As we have seen with the Tat 5, 18 year old kids are not above taking $$ or other free stuff, rules be damned.
I would actually prefer to see something come of the cars thing than this. Why? Because the cars thing is something that can be tied to LOIC. Unless there are email (never out of th question with OSU) showing that someone knew, a single selfish kid taking $$ from a book maker is not something that screams LOIC.
I would still love for this to be true.
"Tressel did a lot of things, and he certainly is not above cheating, but what would be his incentive to shave points (i.e. win by less)?"
I'm not suggesting anything like this happened, but if I'm letting my imagination run free with this, a bag of cash is not the first thing that comes to mind. There were a lot of people out there with dirt on the program.
Response from OSU fans - "Well, that makes sense. Can you only imagine how much more we would have beat teams if we weren't trying to make it a closer game. We are so good."
even gives a shit. There is no way its true. When one thing goes wrong for a program, then everyone starts saying "oh they must have done this too, and this and this...". I'm sick of hearing about tSIO. I get small joy from seeing them hurt. I'll take the recruits, and laugh a bit but honestly....One of the greatest rivalries in all of sports is taking a hit the past 4 years and counting. (our irrelevance and now their scandal) It will be awhile until a win for them over us or vice versa means much more then a win. Am I less a Michigan fan because I said this? I just find it annoying that some Michigan game are all "yay let's sing and dance because tSIO cheated" Work sucks, and had to mindlessly rant.
Searched the Twitter world, and no mention of this rumor....
If anyone shoudl be investigated for point shaving, that should be our Defense from last year...
FWIW, here is a recent (albeit very long) Bucknuts thread arguing about the possibility. Again, I doubt anything comes of this, either because it's not true or never will be proven, but the rumors have been out there for awhile.
But for the life of me, I can not believe that this story has any legs to it. I don't even want it to be true. If it is true, then I quess we can all be fooled by player effort. In the few times that I have caught glimpses of their back ups on the field....they seemed pretty intent on making plays. I know that that is not the only way to influence the points in a game....ie...the coach pulling a player and giving a younger player a chance in garbage time a shot....I just don't see it happening that much for coaches or players to even bother with that nonsense. Tats and cars yeah....point shaving....not so much.
Troy Smith. National Championship game. Mark it.
He convinced his tackles that Florida's ends had ebola?
I haven't rewatched the game, but if memory serves, and as the buckeye boards go: Smith was in cahoots with a gambler (who may very well be Nevadabuck -- who's father is a booster of OSU so the story goes) who had money on the game. The way they tell it, Smith had several turnovers, including a couple fumbles on or near the goal line. They've been crapping their pants over there about this for awhile. Meanwhile the Smith suspension and the dissension among the Oline involved Smith and on Olineman whose name I cannot remember after Smith slept with his gf. I don't know. But, I know that a lot of people in Ohio were saying no wonder they lost. I hear a lot of people in Ohio are now pretty scared. A bit of research on the Nevadabuck character turns up that he has a long history with OSU, has talked about gambling on many occaision and bragged about his close connections with the playaz, staff and boosters over the years (including when Smith was there) And when Connely and Oden were there. Son of wealthy booster if you believe what you read. Not surprising to investigate the snot out the guy and connections to former players. It's not much of a stretch, really, when you consider the stuff that's been coming out, and the admissions that players were getting paid.
Its been a while, but my memory of that game involves OSU snapping the ball and immediately running away from two Florida defenders. I've got no idea what the hell the back story is, but it sure looked like a fattened up from the awards circuit Smith was valiantly running away from very mean players all game.
Smith had two turnovers, an interception and a fumble. That doesn't jump out at me, given the constant pressure he was under. The most "WTF?" moment might have been Tressel electing to go for it on 4th and 1 at their own 29 (which failed) in the first half.
Wouldn't shock me if it were true. Smith had a pathetic, pathetic game that night. Florida had a good D-line, but so did we, and Smith couldn't hit the ocean from the beach that night. It was mind-boggling to me. It was clearly not the same guy who played Michigan (and everyone else that year). I thought at the time that it was a result of his Heisman victory campaign. Maybe it was.
Things just keeping worse and worse for them everyday! Keep it coming
point shaving is grounds for LOIC, unless it were widespread and administrators knew about it. Northwestern got dinged for something similar back in the 90's
I can't recall if the school itself faced any disciplinary action from the NCAA, but the school self reported to both the NCAA and the Feds which eventually led to the indictments.
On a side note, by chance I ended up working with one of the guys indicted several years later. He took his punishment and moved on with his life and he said, it was a dumb stupid mistake by a few young kids.
This falls into the category of "too good to be true" imo
Of course OSU was missing baskets late in the game. Titus needed to preserve the Trillion!
If 1000000000 is point shaving, I'm done watching this sport.