Thats pretty low for Morris
ESPN 150 Released
I think the bigger "WOW" should go to the fact that there is 11 Michigan players in the Top 150.
He wasn't great in Texas but looked outstanding at whatever they're calling the Ann Arbor Best of the Midwest thing now.
I think the battle between RS Jr. Russell Bellomy and RS Fr. Shane Morris will be a good one.
I doubt he drops too far. He has everything that can't be taught - height, mega arm strength, more mobility than Chad Henne. He'll improve his footwork and change of ball speeds by the time he's done with camps and maintain his spot, or maybe move up much like Mallet did.
Eh not surprising. ESPN is the only service that ranks purely off film and stats, and not camps. At least they used to be; don't think it's changes.
I don't see you complaining about Conley being rated way higher than other services.
Outliers are the only reason having more than 1 or 2 rankings is at all interesting.
He's obviously no Christian Hackenberg.
ESPN knocks him for his accuracy (referring to the Dallas camp and his HS completion %). They said it needs to be up around 64% this year. His JR year is comp % was 52%. While this may be true stats can vary wildly at the HS level for so many different reasons. If you look at the game by game stats he had some terrible game comp % wise:
Brother Rice 6 of 16 38%
Inkster 7 of 21 33%
St Mary Prep 5 of 14 36%
Cass Tech 4 of 17 24%
The stats dont necessarily tell the whole story. Can someone who has seen him play shed some light. Does he not get enough time and has to throw the ball away? Are his WR not athletic enough to get seperation and get open? Are they trying to throw a homerun ball everytime (which isn't a high completion pass)?
My point is that you can make stats say whatever you want. Is the problem his accuracy, or is ESPN conveniently using this to point out an isolated incident at the Dallas camp?
(Forgot source sorry), that indicates his receivers aren't Div.1 level. Dropped too many passes. Secondly Shane has a hell of a throw. Don't see many HS players catching his balls. His team will be throwing more this up coming season. When this takes place, you will see higher yards, attempts, completions, ect.. His rankings will move up as well. I see him as the #2 overall QB prospect behind Max Browne (Future Rose Bowl Nemsis)
I'm predicting Shane throwing over 3,500 yards 23 TD/6 INT w/ 250 yards rushing and 4TD'S. Look forward to seeing him backing up Bellomy until he is ready in the coming years
...that surrounds him. His high school team doesn't have top talent.
I hear his rating is far above his high school stats because of camps and also his 7 on 7 team where he has top talent to throw to.
Maybe Morris isn't as good as you think. I think some Michigan fans are overrating him because a) he was offered and committed early and b) he's a Michigan kid. He does have some flaws.
I am not saying Morris is over or under ranked. I am just commenting on the fact that ESPN has his major flaw as accuracy.
1. I have not heard of this being a concern until their Elite 11 camp in Dallas. Just questioning whether this is truly a concern or are they trying to find stats to support their camp evaluation. Which could have been jitters or just a bad day. Or he truly has accuracy issues.
2. The fact that they point to Morris's HS completion percentage (52%) as support to his lack of accuracy, is weird when the #1 QB on the list completed only 50% of his passes last year and is an "accurate" QB.
Accuracy has been a concern about Morris ever since he arrived on my radar. People don't question his intelligence or arm strength, but he apparently has a bit of a scattershot arm. Of course, he does have occasions where he looks like a very accurate passer, but that's not the norm.
I have not watched film on Hackenberg, but I do agree that Max Browne is a better QB than Morris. And I also think Tyrone Swoopes is going to have a great college career if he's used properly. Assuming Hackenberg is better than Morris, too, then I'm not sure how high one could expect the 4th-best quarterback to be ranked overall.
Priest Willis 62
Tashawn Bower 119
Joe Mathis 120
Hargraeves III 4
Wow. Conley. Nice!
He's like 240-ish on 247 and 80th to Scout.
Not worried about his ranking. His offer list is good enough for me.
We definitely have the bottom tier of the 150 locked up. Also I'm sure a bunch of us are disappointed in the rankings, but having 11 of the best 150 already is pretty impressive
I don't understand how anyone could be disappointed in these rankings from the Michigan perspective.
ranked higher, but he seemed to have a Mitch McGary like drop, and a few other prospects weren't ranked as high as I thought they would like Ty Isaac and Treadwell...
Bottom Tier of the TOP ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY RECRUITS IN THE NATION. Why would anyone be disappointed?
they only gave out 6 five stars ratings.
7. C'mon, they even counted them for you.
yeah, no excuse. i'm an idiot.
15 150 players by next Feburary would be great. That is USC-cheating territory.
But without the cheating.
Having a head football coach as likeable as Hoke, who also poops gold and has a magically finger point... that may not be cheating, but it just isn't fair!
Considering the top 3 teams in recruiting last year had 13, 10, and 12 top 150 commits, I'll take 11 in the initial 150 for UM. With the potential for more, this could just a ridiculous class when it is all said and done.
Yes Alabama got 13, and Texas got 12 but they also had recruiting class sizes of 26 and 28. Makes 11 out of 17 very impressive. That is a 65% rate. Tops last year was 53% by FSU. In 2011 it was Bama with 44%. Florida has the highest with 61% in 2010. USC and Florida also had a 50% rate in 2009 but with small classes.
The top three teams (2009-2012) averaged 44% of their class being on the 150 list (or about 11 players).
Not to be all debbie downer, but I have the feeling that the class won't end up with more than 11 in the 150. With so many towards the bottom of the list, some will probably be bumped out by players who rise over the summer/during their senior seasons. And there's a very slim chance, the coaches get Isaac, Treadwell and 2 more players in the 150.
It's not like there are 3-4 guys in the 140-150 range. The lowest rated is Kugler at 121. That would be a pretty significant fall for any of these guys. I think most of these guys will be safe.
uh? We dont have slim chance at Isaac and Levenberry last time i checked we were in good condition for both of them. Same for Treadwell, we might not be as strong still but we still have shot.
isn't in the top 150
He isnt. Wow thats odd. Still for it to be said we will stick at 11 150's is ridiculous, FWIW
I know nothing about evaluating players, but 247 dropped him 200 spots when they released their rankings, he's #80 overall to Scout, and not in the ESPN 150. I think everyone saw his initial Rivals ranking and got excited when he might not turn out to be that kind of super elite guy.
Are the coaches overrating him too? The reason most M fans think highly of Levenberry is that the coaches pulled the offers for all of our LB prospects except him. He was the one LB our staff decided to wait for. That means more to me than what some recruiting site thinks.
I'm just a huge believer in the wisdom of crowds on this sort of thing. The views of coaching staffs (including ours) are important, but I don't think the fact that Michigan really wants him drowns out everything else. Coaches screw up. Even good ones (I'm not saying they're screwing up by rating Levenberry so highly, because I'm not a talent evaluator. Just saying the fact that the coaches love any particular prospect doesn't end the conversation for me).
OK, but when you have rankings of 15 (elite), 80 (pretty damn good), outside 150 (?), and 200-something (still possibly a good player)...basically all over the place....what IS the wisdom of the crowd? Other than "I don't know"...
Not saying which one is right, or that you're even coming down on anybody for recruiting him. I just don't see any pattern there. If Scout wasn't fairly high on him too, then maybe Rivals is an outlier...but assessments seem all over the place.
In any regard, we all agree he's good and won't look bad in a Michigan uniform.
what happens when Rivals updates their rankings (247 dropped him quite a bit in their last update). If he stays at like 15 I'll have to revise my opinion somewhat, but I've been assuming he was in for a bit of a drop.
And probably an accurate project. But there's a difference between what "the majority are saying", and what they might/probably/could say.
And I guess I don't think he's going to fall to anywhere that we still wouldn't be happy to recruit him (as fans, not staff...we already know that), so it doesn't matter that much to me. Groupings do rather than spot. More highly rated recruits means more chance for them to succeed and less chance of medium contribution, but if it means we won't be able to beat our chests because he's not the best LB in the nation or something, it won't be as fun, but I'm not losing sleep over it. (And I don't think you are either).
Sure, it's one data point, but a very important one. He's not just a guy the staff offered at LB, he's on the top of their list. That's a very strong data point, and should hold more weight than any one recruiting site. Add in the fact that he has offers from every top SEC school (Bama, Florida, Georgia, LSU) plus FSU, Ohio St, Oklahoma, Penn State, and ND.
Sure, our coaches can be wrong. But unless every other major coach in college football is also wrong, it's a safe bet that our excitement for Levenberry is warranted.
more than in this particular instance. I think Levenberry is likely a very good prospect that Michigan fans should be excited about (unless he goes to FSU). It's just not enough for me that he's at the top of the board, and I think there are enough other things going on (Florida fans insist he's been told they don't have room for him, his drop in some of the rankings), to think he's like half-shirtless instead of completely shirtless.
Speaking more broadly, my view is: if you could create some sort of theoretical ranking based on offer lists, intensity of interest from top schools, and rankings from the big 4 recruiting sites, I'd take that over the Michigan coaches' opinion.
I'm not saying the Michigan offer should trump everything, but in the case of Levenberry, he has a lot more than that in his favor. He has offers from everyone worth getting an offer from and is in the top 100 on two of four sites. He might not be a four time All-American, but the preponderance of the evidence says he's well worth getting excited over.
All those coaches CAN be wrong. ESPN was very down on Will Campbell and they proved to be the correct voice.
What people SHOULD do is make their own decisions about what evidence they choose to weigh.
Will Campbell is a nice cherry pick example, but I bet you can find just as many 3* guys that were recruited that are big time contributors. Just because they got one right doesn't mean anything more than a broken clock being right twice in a day.
Now if you want to show some data that on the majority of recruit rankings they're not only right, but more correct than most major coaching staffs, that might prove something. One player doesn't.
Every site is going to have their share of hits and misses, and so are coaches. My point was to counter the idea that 'the coaches like him so you should do' assertion.
As I don't have evidence for sites over coaches, you don't have any for coaches over sites. I happen to side with the coaches argument, in general, but that is beside the point.
Watch Levenberry's highlights and see for yourself if he's overrated by Rivals. The kid is a beast!! He's gonna shoot up the other polls after next season when he crushes everything he touches in the state of Virginia!!
Our coaches factor in a kids character to their internal evaluation. That's why kids like Gedeon and Levenberry get a bump and others kids get dropped. Also Gedeon and Levenberry both have raw scores of #80 from Espn which puts them at the same level at the Espn #119 recruit who is also rated at 80.
Yes, that is very Debbie Downer of you. Also, not rally based on anything.
None of those guys are even on the fringe, so saying they'll get jumped is pretty bold. Also, I'm sure some of our other commits are close, so they might be ones doing the jumping. It's very possible a guy like Butt, or Shallman or Gedeon has a good senior year and sneaks into that group.
A big f u!!
The most prolific post of the day!
Next time get your mommy or daddy to help you put a real take together.
Additional 4 stars:
Butt, Dukes, Gedeon, Smith
Shallman and Hill get 3 stars.
So ESPN gives us:
11 ESPN 150
So every commit we have is a 4* on at least one service except for Khalid Hill who is being brought in for a bit of a unique position (U-back..right?). Most excellent
number of ESPN 150 prospects committed to each school:
- michigan: 11
- texas: 7
- alabama: 6
- florida: 6
- osu: 5
- georgia: 5
- A&M: 5
- auburn: 4
- USC: 3
- FSU: 3
- OU: 3
- penn st.: 3
MSU in that list. Oh... wait.
Not sure if you intentionally left off Notre Dame with 2.
all of them with 2.
This is still quite early for 2013, but when you put it like this, holy cow. Michigan has nearly as many as Alabama and Florida combined! Michigan, Texas and Ohio are leading the charge to cure this SEC fever the country has.
I don't know why some of you guys are sulking... 11 out of 150 so far is amazing. Look at the past years... nothing like this and we won the sugar bowl. This class is pure potential!!!
we only have the #4 QB in the entire country
15 of out of the 17 recruits received at least a 4-star rating. The only recruits below that are Hill and Shallman. Hill is the #6 TE/H-Back, while Shallman is the #1 FB, so a nice showing for them even as 3-stars.
The TE above him was a 79 and 4* so Ill consider Hill a 4* as well
This struck me, too. I'm not surprised that Levenberry isn't here, but I am surprised about Poggi.
One thing to remember more generally, though, is that this list is much smaller than the Rivals 250, Scout 300, and 247, uh, 247.
They've got several top guys. Moving to the SEC maybe benefitting recruiting?
who rated you "trolling," and mine above as well. I meant that the SEC is the most prominent football conference (to the national media) in the country so a team moving to that conferfence might get a bump in attention from top recruits. But even if I meant that the SEC cheats in recruiting, that wouldn't be trolling either. I just don't get some people....
and they brought up an interesting discussion point about the lack of African-American Head Coaches. Ryan Clark of the Pittsburgh Steelers was a guest host and he brought up a very interesting point that at many top schools, the Recruitting Coordinator is African-American since they are able to relate to potential prospects from impoverished much better. Skip Bayless (surprisingly) brought up a good case example of Vanderbilt, which hired James Franklin, previously the Recruiting Coordinator at Maryland, and the success it brought Vanderbilt in the past year both in recruiting and on the field results.
Perhaps Texas A&M is experiencing something of this affect as well with Kevin Sumlin as their Head Coach.
That certain parties were worried about certainly have had a tough time relating to recruits and getting them to commit to Michigan...
I said at many, not all. And Michigan is one of the select few programs that will rarely have trouble recruiting, no matter who is here. The traditional and facilities Michigan has to sell makes it very easy for us.
Now for programs on a secondary tier, like Vanderbilt (usually doormat to the SEC) and Texas A&M (little brother to Texas), it gives them an advantage over their peers as well as a joker in their hand to compete for some elite recruits with the big boys.
This is amazing considering we only had 4 in the top 150 last year.
Last years final overall rankings according to ESPN: (ESPN 150/Total # of recruits)
#1 Alabama 13/26
#2 Flordia State 10/19
#3 Texas 12/28
who on earth is Christian Hackenburg? You'd think after hours of pouring over recruiting nonsense one would at least know the name of the apparent best pocket passer in the nation. I guess it's a result of having the QB scholarship taken care of so early.
ESPN is way down on Elmer, wow....#22 OT, and a 79 grade.
He's the best OL prospect IMO of the commits we have. Congrats to Gareon Conley. Rivals has Levenberry @ 15 I believe. And ESPN doesn't consider him top 150?? Thats a large gap.
He's not top 150 on 247 either.
Levenberry is a good player, but he's not as super awesome as a lot of Michigan fans want to believe. He's got plenty of time to grow and improve, though.
If you look at the 4 stars ESPN handed out, it means SIXTEEN of our 17 recruits have four stars on at least one service. That is nuts.
I think that makes ESPN the highest on our class of all the services. Amazing to have 15 four stars, including 11 in the 150. I'm sure someone will find some reason to complain, but I can't see any. Love seeing them so high on Conley. He and Lewis are a quality pair of corners in this class. Also amazing to have all five of our Oline recruits in the top 150. That's a virtually unheard of Oline haul.
Looking at our rivals, OSU will certainly have a quality class and MSU seems unlikely to have any 150 players. But their three best recruits (Powell, Reschke, and Jones) don't seem to have been rated yet. I don't think they'll be in the 150, but any of the three could be a four star and it wouldn't surprise me.
Love this class.
The level of weight given to recruiting rankings is getting out of control. It's one thing if it's a bunch of recruiting junkies commenting, but when actual recruits are celebrating their class ratings in spring - It's gone too far, to the point of being a potential detriment.
I follow recruiting. I know the rankings, in aggregate, are relevant. I want high quality kids and recruiting rankings are decent indicators. But once they commit...they're coming to Michigan and our coaches want them...who cares how recruitniks rank them after the fact?
For my taste, there's way too much self-congratulating and back-slapping going on for high school kids. These kids (and many fans) are treating recruiting rankings like they're meaningful titles. They're celebrating, and I think it might be dangerous.
I'd rather our commits get ranked lower by high profile services like ESPN. I'd rather they get a chip on their shoulder and come in with something to prove. I think that's part of why schools like Boise and Wisconsin have had success lately, and to some extent MSU as well. The 'little brother' thing was funny, but - it's dangerou to put on airs (even if deserved).
By no means am I saying these recruits doomed to fail. I think they'll do great, but that's independant of ESPN's opinion. I will say that it makes the coaches job much harder if the players are coming in feeling like they don't have to prove themselves.
I will say that we have the right set of coaches and the right environment at Michigan to prevent that from happening. The only message they will recieve from the coaches as incoming freshmen is that if they want a spot they have to earn it. Nothing is given to these kids. They know that and it is what they are signing up for when they commit to Michigan.
I agree that our coaches have done almost everything right, and I'm very happy with that.
But some guys come in with attitude and motivation issues that no coach can fix - and we've already seen some guys depart who aren't willing to put in what it takes (Barnett and Posada come to mind.) I suspect recruiting hype can play a role in these situations.
Nothing is given, but some kids expectations don't always reflect that.
is to intentionally recruit lower rated kids. That doesn't make sense
At some point, people that are good are going to be told they are good.
Im pretty sure Nick Saban would disagree with you. Seeing that they have finished in the top 3 for recruiting classes for the last 6 years, and won 2 MNCs, I think a team full of elite level recruits do just fine.
but they're not elite because ESPN says so, they're elite because they play football.
Pissed off with talent > complacent with talent > pissed off without talent
Recruiting rankings don't affect talent. They can affect attitudes.
Kugler's ranking is a little surprising
Big to me...Having a hard time seeing who's nastier Kugler or Kalis. No biggy. Kugler will move up the rankings. I am looking forward to Bosa committing to OSU. Like to see Kalis/Kugler mauling him to the ground. All are nasty, physically specimen.
Wow... did anyone have any money down on Conley being our second highest recruit on this list after Shane? Did not see that one coming...
I view that as a big positive for this class. The fact that the order of our commits in the rankings is so different for every service, along with the fact that the services obviously don't want to put out the same rankings as each other, tells me our class is very solid across the board. Once you're in the top 150 things become a whole lot more subjective because there's not a whole lot separating those guys. With all the hype Lewis got during the Adidas Invitational, I thought he was going to get a huge bump, and the fact that Conley is ahead of him just makes me even more excited about this DB haul. Same goes for the OL.
Henry Poggi is also a borderline 4 star to ESPN.
That one seems a little crazy to me. I bet they looked at his floppy hairdo and prejudged him. I know I did when I first saw him. I was thinking THIS is a top 10 DT?
is a QB-DT? I had no idea centaurs were allowed to play football.
The DT is for Dual-Threat.
I just like imagining a player who plays both QB and DT. Maybe Jared Lorenzen could have done it.
John Navarre could've been close. He was being recruited by many schools (including in-state Wisconsin) as a DE.
I wonder if the addition of Wolverine Nation and Tom, Chantel and Michael over there has any effect on how favorably ESPN rates this class. It seems plausable to me. This does not mean that the ratings are not fair, just wondering if that had any effect.
I do not mean to downplay the greatness of our class thus far, but this has got to be head and shoulders above any class we have ever had at U of M, from ESPN's perspective. The fact that it happens to coincide with the creation of Wolverine Nation makes me wonder if that helped our ratings with them.
Again, this is just a thought, I do not mean to downplay how awesome this class is so far.
Tom has no input, and he has said that multiple times and has praise for the analysts that come up with the rankings.
I'm not suggesting that he has any direct input, only that it seems fair to say that the analysts who do the rankings may have more familiarity with our prospects, or commits in part due to Tom's work. Obviously Tom's work doesnt play an active role in how they come up with their rankings, but I would assume they are somewhat familiar with one another and it could have some effect in that way, even if it is only in drawing their attention to certain players so that they can pass their own judgement.
The typical accusation of ESPN bias is the UAA game. That accusation reduces to $. Now that ESPN has WolverineNation, I could see the same argument applying. Since Michigan has one of the largest fan bases in the country, why not be favorable to their prospects in order to grab more subscriptions? I'd love to read articles gushing about how great this class is. Of course, this is just speculation and beyond the scope of proof.
That would also be the case for Scout, Rivals, 247 Sports, etc. Michigan has a large fan base available to read those sites as well. I don't see why Wolverine Nation would make ESPN lean more toward Michigan than those other services.
Probably more to do with all of the kids we have committed to play in the UA game.
Putting it in perspective:
Corner Position Rankings:
4. C. Burrows
5. K. Fuller
6. G. Conley
11. J. Lewis
3. Eli Woodard (Ohio State)
Woodard will remain a corner, while Burrows could very well end up a safety.
I'm also pretty surprised to see Jaylon Smith at 46, Hutchings at 57, and even Cravens as low as 15 surprises me. Those guys are freaks by all other accounts and I expected them to all be top 20 with Cravens top 10. This is a weird list.
Your guys' class is ridiculous this year. Especially the OL haul. That is all.
Your class is also looking pretty damn good. You just aren't as far along as us.
Return of the Big 2/Little 10: imminent.
Last year, Alabama had ESPN's top class and had 13 ESPNU commits and 15 4-star commits altogether. This year, we already have 11 ESPNU commits (in April!) and already 15 4-star commits. Granted, Alabama had 2 5-stars also sign, but with the offers we have on the board for the talent still available, it appears as if we're making a pretty good push for the top 2013 ESPN class. Sure, it's only April, but Hoke and Co. have shown a knack for holding onto Michigan recruits.
There are two things I see in this list that have not been commented on much.
- All five of our OL recruits are ranked in the top 150. While the OL doesn't get the publicity and love of skill position players, they are the foundation. If you have a strong OL & DL, you can work on the other positions. I find it interesting that Dawson, who is a three star to Scout, has the highest rating from ESPN. Regardless, with four strong OL recruits coming in the Fall, and now five more, we have established a strong foundation. Even if some of these nine don't pan out or are injured, there undoubtedly will be a number who are very good. This will set up our running game for years, and give our QB the needed protection.
- Four on the list come from Ohio. While the only recruit listed with an offer from Ohio is Dymonte Thomas, it is critical that Michigan recruit Ohio well. Having eight of our seventeen commits coming from Ohio is a great thing.
It couldn't be going any better. That said, the historical rate of Michigan recruits turning into reliable contributers or starters isn't much better than 50% (4-star or not). And while recruiting rankings for OL are good for estimating talent that gets you to the NFL, they're probably not good at getting at who will or won't pan out.
As for the Ohio thing, our worst classes in years past have been our most Ohio-heavy. Get good recruits, period. Geography is secondary, at best.
Tom VH must be bringing some common sense to that recruiting team over at ESPN.
Butt, Gedeon, Dukes, and Levenberry all have raw scores of 80 which is the same raw score as ESPN #117 to #150. They rank them for fans but they all have basically the same grade. Anyone over 79 is a four star.
12. Eli Woodard CB
21. Cam Burrows CB
55. Jalin Marshall ATH
127. Marcus Baugh TE
142. Evan Lisle OT
Our guys all seemed ranked roughly right to me. The only one I may have a gripe on would be Marshall and that's because it's hard to imagine 54 guys in the country being better than Jalin.
The thing that makes me the most happy is that Ohio is probably unlikely to add any more than 5 or 6 more of those guys on that list. 6 would make them tied with us. And with us likely to add 2-4 more, and also the possibility of guys like Gedeon, Butt, and Shallman maybe jumping in, we are virtually guaranteed to end higher than them.
Is anyone else a little surprised at how "low" Shane Morris is ranked. I am not saying I think he should be higher or lower but more to the fact of how hyped has been by all sites, especially ESPN. I was expecting him to be top 20 at least, if not higher. Again I am not saying I think he should be especially given his Dallas eliete 11 showing, just surprised he is not.
Nope, I'm not surprised.
Awwwwww... Rabble Rabble Rabble!!!
Love how everyone is disappointed that he is "only" at 37. We're all spoiled.