Watch out guys, Gardner is now demoted from 100% sure starter to 90% sure starter now
In effort to totally piss off Brian, Hoke announces Gardner "might" start if season started tomorrow
Maybe he's trying to motivate the both of them. You know, coaching.
Oh FFS, quit stirring up drama, Hoke. You know Gardner is your starter.
I hate all of this coach speak. There is nothing wrong with simply saying that Devin is the starter.
What if he thinks not saying it will push Gardner more and stop him from being complacent? Then is it ok? And just because Brian says there is no chance that Morris starts (and I agree) doesn't mean there really isn't.
"just because Brian says there is no chance that Morris starts (and I agree) doesn't mean there really isn't."
This stuff gets so annoying. People think Gardner is a sure starter because he performed quite well despite an absolutely terrible interior OL and subsequent lack of a running game and will have a lot of experience over Morris, not because Brian said so. Saying "just because Brian says" makes it sound like there aren't actual reasons for believing it. As if Brian just read it in fucking tarot cards and people here blindly follow him.
But what is there to gain? We get some peace of mind. Gardner might not work as hard over the summer because he knows the job is his. Shane might similarly lose motivation if he thinks there's no point.
There is literally nothing to gain by publicly naming a starter at any point before the first snap of the season. And even privately, the starter should only be named at the end of camp, before the first practice of game week.
I guess after ten years you have forgotten what stability feels like. What's wrong with saying it's DG's job to lose but Shane has been working hard and will be given a chance to compete?
What would the point of that be? Keep the competition going, even if it's predictable who will win the job. When you're coming off a 7-6 season, no one should feel too safe about his spot on the depth chart.
The point is everyone already knows it to be the case. Why pretend it's not?
Because the kids on the team are basically brainwashed into believing everything the coaches say. So if they tell both guys they've gotta fight it out, the guys are going to believe them and act accordingly.
There is a limit to this, of course. You can't tell an All-American to keep his nose to the grindstone or else that freshmen is gonna have his job. In fact, I'm pretty sure Gardner knows that he is going to be the starter, but he also knows that a motivated Shane is good for Michigan, so he will play the game. This is a people business. Fans aren't people.
So are the kids brainwashed or not? You just confirmed my point. Everyone in this world that follows Michigan football knows that DG is the starter and you just agreed with that. There is no point in playing this game if it is hollow and empty. With the situation that M has at QB this year it's just silly.
It's never silly. It's a motivational tactic.
The kids are brainwashed. If Hoke tells these guys there is a real competition, then they will believe him. I just suspect that Hoke isn't telling both of them the same things. This way, its a win-win. Gardner knows where he stands but Shane busts his ass.
My point is it's not going to motivate anyone. It's about as transparent as this type of thing can be given the situation. I understand the philosophy but it requires a certain situation to be effective and in this situation it is indeed silly. Also, I am confused, does Devin know he is going to be the starter or not? You can't say Hoke has them brainwashed and then say you think Devin knows he is going to be the starter. That doesn't make sense.
Sure. They are brainwashed, at least if Hoke is any good. All athletes are to some degree or another. But what matters is what the coaches tell them face to face. In my scenario, Devin doesn't "know" he is going to start in the same way we do, he knows it because his coach has told him he will. Meanwhile, he is telling Morris to keep working and improving because there is a legitimate competition. Now, what does he tell the press? He can't say Gardner is going to start without hurting Shane's trust in him. He can say its an open competition and it will not hurt Devin's trust, as he and Devin have their own understanding.
Regarding brainwashing, it is definitely true. As college athletes, it is very easy to miss the forest for the trees. Guys are made to live and die with each practice, each workout, each rep. This is particularly true for young guys and guys who have yet to make the starting lineup. It changes as you get older, as the coaches soften their approach with you and give you more respect and ownership of the team. I love that shit.
So back to my original comment, how is that any different than saying it's Devin's job to lose? In that scenario he has to outperform Shane and seems like a much more genuine assessment of the situation.
Gives a little more motivation to Shane. Sends a message to the rest of the team that no ones job is safe over the summer. That sorta thing.
I don't really care how Hoke handles it, I just don't see any reason for him to declare to the press that there is no competition.
I'm sure like every coach, on the recruiting trail, they tell kids they'll play the best players regardless of age or class. This probably shows kids they mean it.
Okay, that may be a stretch....
It's just as likely (meaning, who the fuck really knows) that naming Gardner the starter would show him the coaching staff believes in him and give him the confidence boost he needs to have a great season after a tough 2013 where he sacrificed himself physically for little reward. I know if I had gone through what he did last year and a coach was acting like I still hadn't earned a place at the table I might start tuning said coach out.
None of us know the personality of the people involved and I doubt the issue makes much difference either way at the end of the day, but acting like there is a definite right answer (pretend no one has ever secured a starting position until it is time to run out of the tunnel) is just as bad as getting worked up about Hoke's statement.
Or we can talk about how that silly, silly spin move became less and less of his repertoire as the year went on. We can talk about how his pocket manipulation improved leaps and bounds over the year (unfortunately was lost amid the constant pressure and sacks). We can talk about how he had only 3 INTs (every QB has "should have" been interceptions) in Big Ten play despite having absolutely no rushing support. Or maybe the fact that in the biggest game of our year, he gutted out an almost comeback on a broken foot.
There is a nonzero chance that Morris passes Gardner before next fall. Absolutely nothing either player has shown indicates this particularly close to being likely.
This is true, but Gardner is a fifth year senior going into his second full year as a starter. He is not short on confidence. It is probably his biggest strength.
He knows the job is his, just like we all do. But he also knows that a good Shane is good for the team, so he will play along. This is what senior leadership is about. The point is, announcing it to the press is pointless. And in fact, if Hoke tells him he's the man and goes and tells the press otherwise, Gardner feels in on it. It draws him closer to the coach.
did you read any of the reports last year?
did you see him around campus?
everything has indicated that the once-cocky, smag blasted, kid who was going to be the future of QB at UofM, looks shell shocked and beaten down to the quiet kid who keeps to himself.
Devin took a beating last year and his confidence was part of that.
What if Hokes trying to:
A) motivate MORRIS
and B) honestly let DG know he shant get comfortable.
It's not like DG led us to a title (8.3ypa be damned)
hokes just making a statement in saying no one performed to the "expectation of the position" last year and last year was a failure, QB included. if they played solid football last season and were not an inconsistent hot mess every week then id prob expect him to name the 5th yr senior as starter coming out of summer. but not the case. hokes just throwing it out there that all 22 spots are open and no one is "safe" after such a poor season. if hes doing it everywhere else and essentially holding open tryouts for 21 positions then it makes no sense to not do so for QB. as long as gardner gets enough first team reps then theres no issue. we all know gardner is the starter, hoke knows it, nuss knows it, as does everyone associated with the program and most fans / media...hes just posturing and i do not mind it (as long as hes not actually crazy enough to think anyone but that athletic freak gardner provides them with best chance of winning every week - considering the questionable blocking from OL, TEs, FBs and RBs, as well as marginal rock toting by RBs, they need truly dangerous dual threat QB handling it every snap). ---and side note- i personally believe every team in modern era of college ball should utilize dual threat QBs and also try to be as multiple as possible in terms of personnel and scheme...theres very few teams like bama and stanford and lsu who are consistently recruiting all the necessary pieces (several pros on OL, truly dynamic skill players, and legit pro style QBs) to annually compete at championship level with pocket passers running more traditional pro style O's....those rare teams do not necessarily need the athletic QBs adding that extra dimension to beat you....otherwise, pretty much all championship teams of late are spread to run teams with athletic QBs and some spread to pass squads that become infinitely more dangerous when their QB can sprint for 15 yard first downs in bw passing 45 times/game. hopefully nuss is bringing this type of philosophy and over time converts hokes stubborn dated idea of offensive football...why shackle yourself by not recruiting sick athletes to handle the ball every single snap...i really hope hoke does not trap his OC in a bo-era 70's / 80's offensive prison bc post-gardner theyll REALLY struggle vs osu and msu and good teams with mismatched identity / personnel
I aint readin' that.
...that he said he delegated too much last year.
""The addition of (offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach Doug Nussmeier), with his resume, who he's coached, how he's coached and his own resume as a former player, has been significant and it's helped," Hoke says. "He's been positive. For both of them."
Of all the items mentioned, this one I definitely believe. It will be very interesting to see what both Gardner and Morris look like moving into August, although like others, I am decidedly wary of the coach-speak which would hint at a serious competition. It seems more like this is geared to motivate these guys, but then I could be reading it incorrectly.
you went out on it with that one!
1. Your sarcasm meter needs batteries
B. Hoke is NOT playing poker - that was strictly coach-speak crap and has zero to do with keeping future opponents from game planning
He's obviously just trying to confuse and disorient the coaching schemes of Appalachian State.
I'm not sure why these kinds of statements bother anyone. I would have been surprised if he'd said otherwise. It's April, and pretty much everyone on the team (Gardner included) needs to have a strong offseason if the team is going to take a step forward. I don't see the staff guaranteeing anyone else a starting spot, either.
The problem isn't the statements. The problem is the members of the media who insist on turning the statements into "OMG QB controversy" stories.
for me it's dishonest, so who do you believe to be stupid enough to believe that Gardner is not the starter? Am I stupid or is Gardner stupid? I don't get why people like coach speak, it's insulting.
If Morris really has improved that much, and is making high-level decisions with the ball, I could see using them both. Morris in more standard sets and Gardner in situations where his running ability could be a big advantage. Hell, put 'em both on the field at the same time and let Gardner use some of his WR skills.
No, neither of these things is likely to happen, but then again, I don't watch them in practice, so I don't know how either has looked.
LOL at everyone here who thinks Gardner is default starter. Devin is a great person. Devin has great personality. Devin has great intellect. Devin has great running ability.
Devin, regardless of injured foot, has poor accuracy. Devin, regardless of intellect, has poor decision making skills on football field. Devin, regardless of personality, has not shown any leadership in the locker room.
Devin is not in Borges' offense anymore. Nuss wants the QB to run even less. Don't be surprised if they decide to go with a more accurate QB who makes better football decisions, especially when this is a must win year for Hoke.
makes me want to quit the band.
He's trolling. Right?
It's posts like this that make me grateful for all the work the mods have done to prevent this from becoming the mlive it so badly wants to be sometimes.
There's an MGoBand?
Auditions are held at Fleetwood Diner at 3AM on the first Tuesday of each semester.
You won't have to quit the band because DG will absolutely be the starter next year. In the same vein, I'd start at center on a basketball team made up of freshman. Doesn't make me a good basketball player, just better than everyone else on my team.
Gremlin has some vaild points that some here simply refuse to acknowledge.
Gremlin MUST be an insider who personally witnessed Gardner's complete lack of leadership in the locker room. Why else would a random internet dude state such a baseless claim? He's an insider, fo' sho'.
What are you posts like after a midnight snack?
I think you're right... The future is now... Bring on Morris!
The bowl game leads you to believe Shane might be more accurate than Devon?
Who the hell is Devon????
you're one of those idiots who can't spell the name of our starting quarterback and can't spell the word "troll". If you are going to call someone names, don't be the idiot two can't spell the name calling...
That post read outrageously racist to me. He had to couch all his criticisms in compliments so as to avoid all the old racist tropes.
Devin is intelligent, but doesn't make good decisions. Etc.
I might be too sensitive, but I've heard to much of this shit that I can't take it.
LOL, what? Here is a good rule of thumb for you, bro: if a statement is ambiguous as to whether or not it is racist, construe it so it is not. This isn't 1960. Nor is this an SEC board. This is a board of one of the most liberal universities in the USA. Try to give a fellow fan some credit, even if you disagree with his position.
Unwarranted? You clearly haven't walked through an SEC tailgate.
That is a neat story, except for the fact that one thing that Tate had going for him was his accuracy, while Denard's accuracy was his greatest weakness. The one thing that QBs can do that other positions do not is hurt defenses by getting the ball to playmakers in a position to make a play. For all of his weaknesses, I do miss Tate's accuracy on short and intermediate throws. I recall him being able to make throws that would be in just the right position to allow the receiver to catch the ball at full speed and get north and south as soon as possible. Whether we are talking about Denard, Bellomy, Devin, or Shane, I am getting tired of Michigan QBs alternating between overthrowing receivers and making the tackle on their own receiver by throwing the ball into the dirt. While I am sure that the porous O-line hasn't helped matters, I don't think that either Devin or Shane is anywhere near a pinpoint passer at this point.
Cuz we can't go give white people the benefit of the doubt?
level in all people, then yes, white people would be included in this. It doesn't sound fuzzy, but I think it's accurate and those that can respond to this truth tend to do better in racial harmony than others.
Or maybe he said Devin is intelligent because he is in graduate school and that he makes terrible decisions because he did repeatedly. There was nothing remotely racist about that post.
Yeah, after rereading it later in the day, I probably over-reacted. I'm just so sick of it, maybe I'm seeing boogeymen. Sorry to the board.
Damn, you in the locker room? Hook me up with some VIP passes!
Don't worry, I get it. Like the great satirist Jonathan Swift, many people may be made with your deadpan delivery because they think you are serious. You use ridiculous logical jumps and tired arguments to show how silly the point you are actually 'arguing' is. But don't worry, I understand some good satire. Kudos to you good sir.
1....Of course he should be the default starter. Last game he played he almost beat OSU.
2. He deserved far more flak for last season but seemed he was like teflon and he had relatively none.
3. Morris definitely has a shot to unseat him by opening day.
Someone needs a Snickers.
Wow, no leadership in the locker room you say? Curious, have any quotes or examples? I'm just wondering because I'm wondering how you've been in the locker room enough to really comment on the leadership.
Don't expect anything...just typical of this board not knowing $*** about Michigan football.
Hoke is on the hot seat.
If Hoke goes w/ Shane and Mich underperforms, HE GONE.
While he's more than likely just coach-speaking, isnt it at least posible that the new QB coaching/possible change in offense has created at least some competition?
Only if Shane Morris is the next Peyton Manning, a prodigious once-in-a-generation talent.
Devin Gardner has proven that he is a good quarterback. New system or not, good quarterbacks are a commodity. They aren't just discarded because of "fit", or else Hoke and Borges would have let Denard transfer.
The only reason this debate exists is because Michigan had a bad record. For some reason, football fans love to blame/credit the quarterback for losses/wins, no matter what his actual production is like. In the age of Sabermetrics, I can't believe how stupid we are about this issue.
I need to go back and look ...
Of Brady/Hensen, who arguably had more talent and who arguably made better decisions with the football?
Unless the last 15 years didn't actually happen.
Henson was more talented. I know that sounds crazy, but he had a stronger arm and was more athletic. Brady made better decisions, though.
But part of having talent is having the ability to access those attributes and skills on a consistent basis. Which is why Drew Henson has started one NFL game.
Brady as a junior: Completed 61.1% of his passes for 202.8 yards per game. Threw 15 TD and 12 INT.
Gardner as a junior: Completed 60.3% of his passes for 246.7 yards per game. Threw 21 TD and 11 INT. Also rushed for 11 TD. With no running game and a porous offensive line.
You may not be a racist, but you're apparently incapable of accurately remembering the past and putting it in context with more recent events.
I'm sorry, but was I comparing Brady to Hensen or Brady to Gardner?
How was I not accurately recalling the past?
Think before you post.
Brady's play was mediocre at best as a junior. You are viewing him in light of what happened later (good senior season, great NFL career) while ignoring the much more productive and less mistake-prone season Gardner had because you seem to recall some poor choices he made and that bothered you.
Every quarterback makes mistakes. Especially when they have no running game to lean on and virtually no protection from their interior offensive line. The numbers indicate that Devin Gardner played incredibly well while dealing with those circumstance. Like, better than Tom Brady and a bunch of other Michigan quarterbacks.
You're bitching about a guy who performed fantastically well by objective historical standards and did so without the advantages many in his position previously enjoyed. And your solution is a guy we just saw look totally lost in his only game time. Only Braxton Miller had a higher QB rating in the conference than Gardner. But I bet you think he sucks too, despite all that pesky winning.
Unless Brady Hoke is a complete idiot, there is zero quarterback controversy here.
"Devin has proven he is a good quarterback."
Reader71, what if Shane proves he is a better-than-good quarterback in fall camp?
We have seen Shane and he is no Devin Gardner. Shane put up 6 points in the first 59 minutes against KSU--Devin put up 41 against OSU on a broken leg. Shane has a reputation for having a strong arm--he does not have a reputation for accuracy--certainly no more so than Devin. I just hope Shane is ready in 2015.
Do Shane and Devin have the same learning curve?
Do you evaluate potential investments solely on past performance?
Respond to everything with questions? Nice trick, that way you don't actually have to defend the ludicrous position you're taking.
Morris aint starting. DG performed minor miracles given the state of our offensive line and RB's blocking. The one data point we have on Morris showed the coaches had to severely restrict the offense for him. While he didn't do badly, he sure didn't light it up out there.
In short, I'd relax my position if I were you.
Yet Gardner got incredibly little criticism here. Was it Borges or OL? Maybe.
. Read it again.
Maybe Dave Brandon is getting Hoke to generate the maximum # of media articles.
Devin just got Hunter Lochmann'ed?
I don't care who you are, that's funny.
I'm more disappointed that Morris hasn't passed him yet.
As much as I want Gardner to be the guy and lead this offense I have to agree with gremlin. devins a great person and has a ton of talent but he just makes terrible decisions with the football. And for anyone who wants to use the offensive line excuse look back at last years northwestern game and the second half of the iowa game. The o-line was solid in those games and we actually could run the ball but devin was just awful. Should have been picked off atleast 4 times against northwestern and it was a miracle we won the game. I admit he played his ass off against ohio state though and will always love him for that. Gardner will most likely start the season but would bet a lot of money it doesnt stay that way for long.
Or the Penn St game
Because of this statement, Reader71 now thinks you are racist.
I just had a discussion the other day with a guy who insisted Shane made better decisions and was more accurate with the ball. This despite the fact that Shane has one start, had to make very few decisions due to the extremely pared-down offense in said game, and showed no great accuracy. In fact, the knock on him in high school was lack of great accuracy. I jumped to a conclusion I probably shouldn't have, but it was informed by discussions like that one that are very clearly race-related.
This is certainly one of the more reasonable anti-Gardner posts. Do I believe Gardner will and SHOULD be the starter? Absolutely. I believe he's earned it and nothing I have seen from Morris makes me think he gives Michigan a better chance to win.
Having said that, if people really believe that Gardner has been a perfect quarterback, please think back to Akron, Penn State, and UConn. If Gardner minimizes turnovers, those should all be easy wins. Instead, Michigan went 2-1 and both wins were nailbiters. More than Gardner impacted those games, but we would all be lying if we honestly believe he didn't have a lot to do with those struggles.
Like I said, believe Gardner is the better option, but at least this does point out that Gardner was far from perfect, which I think throws a lot of people off. Still, don't believe there is a controversy.
... My favorite part of this piece was the video at the bottom of the article in which the sports anchor claimed that Gardner's pick at the opening of the spring game generated the present "quarterback controversy."
*Insert favorite iteration of the facepalm meme.*
Taking one right out of the old man's playbook.
It's on page two, right after "The Transfer Papers Routine."
Look at those confusing logos in the background. Where's the brand?
Is anyone else still hoping Shane gets reshirted somehow this year?
Yes, there is a 5th year senior quarterback and a redshirt sophomore backup. I really wish he would be. The only reason I would want him to come off red shirt is if Gardner got injured long term.
I have been begging for this.
Wait, what does this have to do with basketball?
Gotta earn them wings!
Hoke is just saying it to continually light a fire under Devin's ass this summer. All it is is coach talk.
What makes you think Devin needs a fire lit under his ass? Is he not working hard enough for your tastes?
I find this whole thing ridiculous and unneccesary. I don't remember any Senior QB who wasnt the defacto starter in Spring. I may be wrong but do any of the other old-timers remember Bo declaring that Franklin, Leach, Wangler, Smith, Harbaugh or Taylor "might" start their Senior year? The only one of these that I recall was the Brady/Henson QB time share and that wasn't under Bo's watch.
It might be simply "coach-speak" but if I was Devin I'd be pretty pissed unless Morris is just playing lights out and killing it in practice. Cause nothing I saw in the Copper Bowl or Spring Game would indicate there's even a shred of doubt who's the better QB.
Pretty sure that one guy, Brady (spelling?), lost some PT as a senior to a freshman understudy.
Already acknowledged. Fail. Neg away.
I'm with you on this one. This whole thing is just a dumb, non issue.
Sure does suck.
I feel bad I decided to read through the rest of this thread.
I'm gonna know who the starter is by watching the first game. In the mean time:
Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our Mgoblog
Does my sarcasm meter need fixing again or are you serious? Can't tell. I assume sarcasm because nobody is that dumb.
I made it to the bottom of the thread! I get a reward, right?
Seriously who gives a shit? The season is 4 months away and Hoke never says anything of substance in the first place.
How are you so sure Shane can operate under pressure? any evidence?
Just Win The Game!
Brady didn't say anything that Bo Schembechler wouldn't have said too, along with a million other head coaches. And after a 7-6 season, there's little reason for him to declare anybody a pre-emptive starter four months from the start of fall camp.
With respect to what Shane showed in the bowl game, I would expect that most kids with real talent are going to make noticeable strides between their first season and their second spring camp.
Ultimately, the angst this is revealing is a function of going 8-5 and 7-6. If we'd gone 10-2 and 11-1 with victories over OSU and MSU in the last two years, Hoke's statements wouldn't be subject to this level of obsessive interpretation. It wasn't too long ago that he was said to "poop gold" around here.
Agreed. Sadly, now all Hoke can poop these days is....
Weren't a few posters just a week ago railing at Brian for dismissing the "BENCH GARDNER" crowd because "tilting at windmills" or some shit?
Check out this thread, haters. That crowd exists. They are extra stupid, but they exist. That's why.