Agreed. I used to pull up this site a few times a day now it's probably a few times a week
Edited Title: Player development over next three games
At some point, when there's insurmountable data, the chance you are wrong shrinks to near zero. I mean, if I get stung by scorpion, and now I'm in a hospital bed laying there sick from poison, and that welt is the size of a baseball, and doctor has come and told me it's a scorpion sting, at this point I'm 99.9% sure it was a scorpion.
Most people are at about their 99% mark with Al Borges. Not that he's a scorpion, although I do feel like he's stung me in the dong for about 2 months straight now, but that he's incompetent relative to his peers in not only the top 5, but the top 30 highest paid offensive coordinators. Thus, many of us have reached the point where we conclude that yes, come January Michigan football will be better off without Al Borges and Darryl Funk.
As such, for the good of the program, we don't want anything shrouding or otherwise hiding this 'fact' as we see it.
Yesterday's game was another offensive abomination. Agains a team 0-5 in the Big Ten, mighty Michigan converted zero third downs in regulation, scored zero touchdowns in regulation even though frequently working with a short field, nearly had 2 pick sixes, and somehow miraculously avoided about 5 total interceptions, many of which hit NW linebackers in the palms of their hands. To think, all of this new data just yesterday, after all of the insurmountable data compiled over 8-10 other failed games, some epicly embarrassing.
Anything that stands in the way of Al Borges being fired, we don't want. Thus the ideal is wins over Iown and Ohio, but not in a way that cloud the obvious and somehow win this utter failure of an O.C. another year of Michigan salary.
So you're rooting for the offense to continue to suck and for us to lose if thats what it takes to fire Borges? Yeah, that makes you a terrible fan.
I'm curious, in the hypothetical that you turn on the game next week and we start with a great 75 yrd drive for the TD, will you be disappointed? What we if put up 40 pts? Again, would that upset you?
Rooting against the short term success of the team is never acceptable. It reminds me of going to the MSU game many years ago when their fans came to the big house and rooted against MSU so that Bobby Williams would be fired. That's what you are.
The ideal outcome is that the coaches get their shit together and makes guys better, get guys playing to their potential, coach to their potential and put players in the best position to win.
There isn't even another right answer to this question.
The best outcome is to win and max out with the current players and staff. The real question is whether that is likely...
I'm pretty sure that if I told everyone we're going to keep everyone on our current staff and we're going to win games, play our best in the majority of those games, put guys in a position to win in all of those games and get our players better each and every year...we'd all take that.
That's the outcome we want and that's the best outcome for the "future success of the program."
What would you need to see, outcome/execution/gameplan/etc., in these next three games for you to have confidence in the offensive coaching staff moving forward? Is three games enough for them to demonstrate anything of substance to you?
I have a small amount of confidence based on last night. Taking Fitz out was the right move by the coaches. And even though we didn't do much in regulation, we opened up the offense quite a bit and were able to move the ball in awful weather. I think we build momentum from this game and then lay some wood to Iowa next week.
Are you kidding me? Confidence from last night? Were we watching the same game? I thought I saw a game where we scored zero TDs in regulation against an 0-5 Big Ten defense, had 2 near pick sixes bounce off of NW hands, have 3 other near interceptions, need 2 4th down saves to just get into an insane scenario to kick a wild field goal to not lose to an 0-5 Big Ten team even after our defense heroically held their potent offense to 0 TDs.
Yet you are telling me you gained confidence in this offensive coordinator? Yeah we sure built some great momementum what with an overtime where we got the ball at the 25 yard line 3 times...
How was yesterday not a confidence-builder? Not just positive rushing yards, but over 100 by two freshmen after two games of negative yardage. And while there were some dropped picks, UM has only turned the ball over once in the last 3 games.
The OL still struggled but UM adjusted and 3rd downs sucked but they had 2 critical 4th down conversions in the final regulation drive. There are now 3 fresh backs going into the final two games of the season. NW was a slumpbuster and probably Brady Hoke's biggest road win given the context of this season.
are the alleged Michigan "fans" who are actively rooting for Michigan to lose so they can affirm their self-image as badass alpha dogs who "sack up" and "won't settle for mediocrity."
But I think it's reasonable as a fan to hope for a coaching staff that, in my view as a fan, puts the team in a position to win games.
It's also my personal opinion that it's tolerable for fans to have no faith in coaches who, in their opinion, don't put the team in a postion to win games.
Now, I don't believe it's reasonable for those fans to be all like "THISISMICHIGANFURRFOOKSAK," but I tried to avoid that as much as possible.
But if this staff somehow figures out a way to win the next 3 games, couldn't that possibly be a sign that they... ARE the right coaches for this program?
I personally don't think Iowa is a good enough opponent for the results in that game to swing the pendulum at all in favor of keeping the staff. Their defense isn't on an Indiana level of incompetency, and may very well be better than Northwestern's (which bottled us most of the game), but the talent level is so inferior that dominating them wouldn't really feel that impressive. So maybe it's unfair, but nothing that happens next Saturday is really gonna change my opinion on the staff.
Against OSU it's obviously different. If we win by scoring 3 defensive td's, does that really say anything about the offensive staff?
But if we get 2 halfs of the Al Borges we saw in the first half against OSU last year, and against South Carolina, then maybe I grudgingly conclude that he deserves another season to further implement his offense.
The biggest question to me is can we get push from our offensive line against OSU. If we can do that, then I have way more confidence in the offensive staff moving forward.
A win is a win. If we win the next 2 games, no matter how it happens, it will be a tremendous success by this coaching staff. Outside of Funchess and Gallon, we have very little talent on offense (other than the 2 freshmen that finally got some PT). Winning 9 games with possibly the worst offensive lines in Michigan history, a QB that has been prone to turnovers and terrible decisions, and essentially zero running game would be incredible. We all need a reality check based on our original expectations for this year.
We have (1) a returning LT that would have gone top 5 in the NFL draft; (2) a second or third round RT; (3) a senior QB who was a top recruit; (4) the top RB in the nation in last class, according to some scouting services; (5) the #1 guard from 2012, etc., etc. We don't have the talent to beat Akron or UConn by more than fluke and a prayer? We may not be able to get anything out of these players due to our coaches' ineptitude, but to think that we have "little talent on offense" is hilarious to the 100 (or more) other FBS teams that would trade their offensive rosters for ours in a heartbeat (provided they would have an opportunity to coach them up). Take a look at the roster of the teams that are beating us, or that we are beating with goal-line stands at the end of games, and reconsider.
I've looked at half a dozen mock drafts and have yet to find one that has Schofield even drafted, much less in the second or third round. Do you have a link to anyone that projects him that high?
There's a difference between no having faith in the coaching staff and this board quickly turning into MLive
It has already become mlive
Borges and Funk have not performed poorly at their jobs, and it's difficult for me to believe that there aren't better OC and OL coaches out there. I'm skeptical that Brady Hoke is capable of getting this program to truly elite status.
However, there's a vast gulf between having those opinions and being disappointed that Michigan wins. I will never root for Michigan to lose any game, in any sport.
Even though I changed my original thread title, I still think it has validity and isnt saying what it was being read to say.
My question was basically, removing your emotion from the equation, is winning better for the team longterm. Obviously you want your team to win, but if a win means sticking with an inept coaching staff, I don't think it's 100% obvious that the outcome of winning is better for your team long term. As an example, that kick yesterday going through the uprights helped us to win yesterday, but it has very little predictive value moving forward that we can win again--whereas the poor offensive gameplan and questionable 4th down play calling, etc. are probably better indicators of what will happen in future games.
There is no upside to losing when it comes to recruiting.
Reading comprehension is your friend.
"It's extremely hard for me to make the case that Borges and Funk have not performed poorly at their jobs..."
I did not write:
"It's extremely hard for me to make the case that Borges and Funk have performed poorly at their jobs..."
Notice the difference?
However, I will give you that my phrasing was less than clear.
Akron and UConn DO have better players than we do. Its sad to say, but also pretty straight forward.
The interior of our line against those two teams were also 0* RsSo, 3* RsSo, 5* RsFr. Not one of them had ever started a college football game before this season. Going into Akron, they had 2 starts apiece
Akron's defensive line was made up of Sr transfer from Colorado State who had 13 starts and played in every game since enrolling in college, Sr with 22 career starts, a So with 13 career starts, and a Jr who I could not find data on.
Akron's football players are better than ours. And they suck. Ours just suck more. And our sucky guys were just learning to suck in the stadium instead of sucking on scout team.
Its sad, man.
Akron's players are better than ours? It seems like you are saying that anyone with more career starts is better than someone with fewer. I will happily line up 3 and 5 star recruits with little experience taught by competent coaches against Akron (whose very good coaches are working with players who largely did not receive offers from AQ teams). (Akron's 2011 recruiting class had one 3 star recruit, nine 2 star recruits, one 1 star, and 13 recruits with no stars.)
Moreover, I thought that Hoke defenders' main point is how well he recruits. If recruiting ranks do not matter (because only experience does), why are we paying $4M to this head coach?
Our players are not the problem. We have seen what the defensive staff can give with all levels of recruits, helping individuals who have largely struggled get better. We have also seen what this offensive staff does. Based on my understanding of Borges' history, I think we have been set up for regression and disappointment.
And the hipster fans who want to be right at all costs. "I knew Hoke sucked when we hired him, etc." Those tend to be the most infuriating, as they can see their assumptions in everything. Gardner throws to a defender, Fire Borges. Gallon drops a wide open TD, Fire Borges.
I think that if they can show some progression and adjust to the strengths of the current players and their development then a case could be made to retain them.
It was encouraging to see more focus on shorter passes, and I hope the end of the game builds back some confidence for Devin, but I just cannot see Borges resisting going back to infuriating stretch runs and longer passes in better weather conditions. If Gallon and Funchess made a few more of the typical catches a few drives and TDs would have happened, but overall were pretty good considering the conditions.
I think the best runner for this line is actually Smith so I hope he gets a few more carries as he just hits the line and goes which I think really helps given the struggles there. Iowa is a much better defensive team than NW so it will be interesting to see what happens there first, and if Borges reverts immediately back to previous tendencies.
A win over Ohio goes a loooooong ways. So say 8-4 with a win over Ohio looks pretty good.
EDIT: To be clear, I think the game has passed Borges by. The game has changed and he hasn't.
I think the game has passed Saban by too. The days of winning with a strong defense and a great power running game are clearly over...
That's not quite what I meant. Look at Borges's career. He has never been a top flight OC. He has had 1 or 2 great seasons many years ago and the rest have been pretty mediocre. Sorry for the confusion.
I am sure this will erase the memory of an underperforming season.
As much as I dislike Borges & Funk's results to date I have zero issues with them personally so if they somehow turn this ship around and manage to provide a coherent and sustainable offense over the next three games I would be happy to see both return.
That being said I dont think we can point to the game yesterday as some sort of watershed event or turning point. It was more of the same suckitude with the exception of the Freshmen RBs providing a much needed lift in the running game. And I sincerely hope it continues next week and more importantly the week after.
I am solely interested in wins. Whether they come via spread, manball or Borges hybrid-fusion cusine matters not to me.
Slight OT but holy shit that kick at the end of the game was badass. Talk about 11 people moving as one and delivering under pressure. Now THAT was evidence of some serious coaching!
That was pretty cool. Dileo slid into postion like he was Luke Duke. I watched the GIF on the main page for about 5 mintutes. That was one of the best football plays I've ever seen.
Luke Duke. Solid pull right there.
T I E B R E A K E R S
If the Michigan AD pays any attention to reactionary fan base we're screwed. Not saying that all the fans are wrong, just that you can cherry pick any opinion you want. Do you go with the loudest voice? The complimentary voice? The optimistic view? The negative nancy? the voice of reason?
In the end, I'm sure that the AD has measurables in place to review goals, progress and expectations. While these three games are a part of the whole, they are not the end. College football has programiatic and cyclical issues to contend with, the view going forward will need to take the short term data (game to game) and be able to appy it to a long term vision for the program.
OLine coach should be gone no matter what. There is a clear regression and that is on the position coach. I am not saying fire him because freshman are not getting a 4 yard push. I am saying fire him because the line in week 9 is so much worse than the line in week 3. This season has demonstrated a failure at that level.
OC gets one year. He has not worked with the position coaches to understand were the strengths and weaknesses are and changed strategy to fit the reality. To me this is like the Colonel not understanding what the Captains have prepared and going into battle.
I wouldn't fire Borges over that yet. He could be seeing a team that plays one way in practice and another when on the field. That said the play calling is terrible. He gets one year but with the understanding that he is on borrowed time unless he can prove next year that he can stay.
Hoke gets a year beyond that. That is 5 years so he is working with the players he recruited.
I does little good to fire Hoke in year three because then you just go into another rebuilding cycle. Hoke and company need to receive a clear message though that they cannot just accept the bottom half of the division.
I think our coaches are doing a better job of developing players from a mental standpoint. The past few games Gibbons has gotten pretty cocky and has been trying to bank field goals in. This past game he didn't try it once.
I'm not gonna root for them to lose. I also don't think winning the next two games should get Borges and Funk their jobs back. I've seen enough of them to know things won't change with ''the players they recruited''.
I'd be willing to bet if Borges isn't fired a lot more people don't reknew their season tickets. At least that's the impression I got at the Nebraska game.
The theme for this year has been OL inexperience, and a lot times I feel like the OL just needs more practice time together to gel. I am hoping that the bowl practices will be instrumental in the gelling process, an opportunity to get back to basics, and that the OL will look competent in the bowl game. What makes me leery is that I expected the same for the MSU game; with the bye week, they had a couple weeks to gel, and they couldn't block their way out of a wet paper bag. If the OL comes out for the bowl game looking like crap, I will be disappointed.
I won't ever trust Borges. I have watched him lay too many eggs that have left the entire fan base scratching their heads with wonder.
I was not nearly has negative about Borges as most people were after Penn St but the last few weeks especially the Nebraska game has sold me that there might have to be a change.
A win like last nights can galvanize a team though, an us against the world type mentality. They could win the next two I don't really care about the bowl but if they beat Iowa and Ohio I think people will have to reconsider their thoughts on the staff.
My thing is that we do not know with complete metaphysical certitude that Borges OR Funk will be canned if we lose the next 3.
IME, the most likely scenario is that we lose all 3 remaining games, Jackson retires, and Borges & Funk are retained. We'll be better next year, but this staff isn't capable of beating OSU. It's not a big enough deal for Hoke, so with 3 more losses in a row to OSU (does this team seem spirited enough to beat Meyer?), Hoke & co get canned after 6 years at M.
Are you actually asserting that beating OSU isn't a "big enough deal" for Brady Hoke?
IA is a team we can beat! Then the team will finish at 8-4 for the season and meet my prediction and several others.
Play hard against OSU. I hope we can pull of the major upset but as long as it withing 10 points I will be happy. If OSU comes and blows us out then it will lead to a sour note on the season.
I'll let Hoke evaluate his coaches.
3-0 would be pretty cool
Regardless of the number of wins, I want no coaching changes this year. Of course, I think to win out, or win two out of three, will only help Borges and Funk. But I believe they are staying, and I'm thrilled with that.
I also believe coaching instability is terrible for the program, and the best possible thing is for them to stay. I really want to see what the OL can do next year.
Yeah, so the best possible outcome is for Michigan to win out, but regardless of wins, I want the entire coaching staff to stay intact.