I don't have a link, but I can tell you that with very few exceptions, we'll take any HS senior athlete who meets the NCAA minimums. We are stricter when it comes to transfers.
to play football, not to play trumpet
I don't have a link, but I can tell you that with very few exceptions, we'll take any HS senior athlete who meets the NCAA minimums. We are stricter when it comes to transfers.
I'm sure "James Burill Angel" could expand, but....
I think the athletic department is given a certain amount of commits that they are allowed to accept, given they meet a certain academic standard that is less than the general admissions standard but greater than NCAA minimums. Once a team fills this alotment, the student-athletes are handled on a case-by-case basis.
From what I can tell/remember, UM does have standards higher than NCAA minimums (case in point: Demar Dorsey), but to what extent is a little fuzzy.
This is what I remember being posted by MGoPosters in the past, so take it for what it's worth.
Did Dorsey actually qualify? I don't think he got admitted anywhere..
From what I remember: He met NCAA minimums, but the Office of Admissions(?) did not admit him into the University. Sorry if my post didn't make that clear.
I know what you were saying, but I don't think it's a good example. IIRC, his qualification was called into question by the NCAA. We were not the only school to reject his application. FSU and Louisville did as well.
Absolutely, I'm not discounting that... I'm just pointing out that it appeared that Dorsey had the NCAA requirements. They certainly came into question and Michigan did not admit him.
My original point was that of someone who posted here from the U-Tennessee admission department (or maybe athletic department) who said that ADs are generally given an alotment of students they can admit that would not be admitted without an athletic scholarship. Once this alotment is filled they handle it on a case-by-base basis.
I don't remember the name of that poster... it'd be awesome if he could chime in!
If we have an allotment of students with sub-standard grades/tests that can be admitted, I can assure you it does not apply to the football team. It may apply to sports like soccer, where most guys are on partial scholarships. The football program can get any HS senior who meets the NCAA standards admitted. I literally cannot name a kid in the last decade who got rejected by U-M but was eligible to play elsewhere. If Dorsey's qualification had not been red flagged, he'd have gotten in.
The one area where we have higher standards than the NCAA minimum is regarding transfers. We have a hard time getting JUCOs in. Otherwise we're bringing in pretty much the same caliber of student as everyone else.
I don't know why you would insinuate it may apply to other sports like soccer and not football...
I think you're mis-reading my posts. In order of high academic accomplishments:
Not claiming this to be 100% accurate, but this is what I've gathered from knowledgable posters here.
And the number of people that fall into "case 4" is very slim, from what I've gathered. Hopefully, someone can provide a more accurate insight.
My post below, explains a little bit more about the university academic requirements.
I'd guess very few scholarship football players would be admitted absent an endorsement from the AD. Before we start praising our lofty standards for athletes, realize that the average Freshman SAT score was 1283--almost 300 points higher. They get into school to play football. Everything else is secondary once the mins are met.
Think about how often folks praise recruits' grades when they hit 3.4 or so. That's a bad high school profile for a normal applicant today.
would be a better example. He was qualified under NCAA standards but was not admitted by UM admissions, if I recall correctly.
(Not to suggest I have specific inside knowledge on his circumstance, I just recall that being the popular explanation)
That is a better example, one that I was looking up at the time, but couldn't exactly remember. Memory is shaking, especially after a few cold ones on New Year's Eve Eve.
Witty was qualified? I'm pretty sure that was not the case. You have a link to back that up?
I think he was referring to the second time around, after prep school. He did eventually qualify and played for Cincinnati this year.
Demar Dorsey would be suiting up for us on Saturday were it not for those evil communist media devils. It's all their fault! Dense Dorsey is a model human-being who represents everything Michigan stands for. He hadn't committed a burglary in more than a year!
Pryor was an Academic All-American at OSU. enough said
I swear I remember reading this during his recruitment...
He sold his All-District QB Certificate to the principal for A's.
According to Rivals he had a 3.4 GPA.
Im guessing he had a little "help" judging by his current body of work, and that legendary paper about research he made.
Yes and I believe also an Eagle Scout and volunteer for the Little Sisters of the Poor....
...but this was all before he learned about tats
FOOTBALL SAT SCORES:
THE TOP 10
School, Average SAT score (out of 1600)
Big Ten athletes average between 11 and 20 on their ACT, Northwestern didn't report their athlete's ACT scores. Division I athletics use a "sliding scale" to determine admissions, meaning the higher their high school GPA, the lower the requirement on the ACT is.
Did they have no data available from private schools? I'd be very surprised if Stanford, Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice, ND et al. weren't in the real top 10.
But you think they would want to.
Because I would think the same. Private schools don't have to report their information (for example, Northwestern did not report their athletic info.)
Please don't tell me that the average Big Ten athlete really averages between 11 and 20 on their act. That has to be a mistake.
Yes, but once you're admitted get your butt to class. Do all your work and don't leave your team stuck over a barrell. I'm talking to you Tate Forcier. (wagging finger with a disappointed expression on face).
The OP is referring to the comment that Forcier didn't meet university standards. My guess is that those exactly equal NCAA mins for eligibility. I posted mins I found in one of the OMG! Forcier threads, and they were slightly below 2.0 for a Sophomore. I can't imagine Michigan being stricter because a lot of kids have awful Freshman years and dig out in subsequent years.
Good point. This question usually comes up with admissions standards, but the OP was probably referring to gereral academic requirements for current students.
For the record: as you allude to, students are on probration if their semester GPA is lower than a 2.0 (solid C).
I thought a C still was supposed to be "average." Grade inflation is a killer. I read an article recently about North Caroliba trying to re-calibrate grades to a better system without hurting their grads.
I read the same article. My daughter is currently an Engineering student at Michigan and from what I can surmise they do not inflate like a lot of other schools. They run more on a traditional bell curve. It is definitely an issue as more UM students are going to be showing Cs than grads from other schools...but hopefully that is recognized.
I was a Political Science major and am currently in grad school and I can assure you that it is known among academic circles that UM (generally) doesn't inflate grades. Unless of course you're a pysch major. BOOM!
/friendly inter-social sciences rivalry?
Both my sons went to Michigan, one got a Phd in EE and the other is getting his MS in computer engineering. There may be a bell curve at some point, but it sure as heck isn't in advanced level undergraduate courses, nor would you want one. By the time you are taking third and fourth year undergrad courses you have a pretty select crowd of kids...to start giving lots of C's or lower, assuming the student does reasonably well in the course, would be unfair, as all of these kids are pretty damned smart and hard workers to have made it that far.
As far as your comment about grades from Michigan being recognized as lower than some schools, I can tell you for a fact that med schools don't make that distinction, at least for U of M's med school.
When you look at the SAT scores for football players, at Michigan and elsewhere, they really are a joke compared to the SAT admission numbers for the regular student body. I can understand giving jocks some latitude, as their days during the season are grueling, but this latest Tate thing has me feeling sick and is just another stain on our program generally and cannot help our recruiting.
bitching about playing time. Maybe RR knew all along that Tate was going to flunk out and that is why he developed DRob. If so, that RR is a genius.
Okay I'm wrong. I guess I'll take a C for that comment, or lower.
Which means to be eligible to play you need to be in average academic standing; for scholarship athletes admitted with lower academic standards that 2.0 GPA is harder to hit, especially given the time commitment to their scholarship points. General Studies & Kineseology exist for a reason.
I am currently in the School of Kinesiology and, particularly since we just got done with exams, I wouldn't exactly describe it as a walk in the park.
Assuming Michigan is anything like Pitt where I went to grad school and tutored student-athletes, they get all the help they could possibly use. Any kid in an athletic program has free access to all the tutoring that they could want. That includes help with homework and such - much of which is graded.
For the record, I really didn't like tutoring most of the kids in football and men's and women's b-ball. Many (but not all) of those kids didn't care about academics and took ridiculous classes like Pre-Algebra, the start of which was addition of three digit numbers. Things like: 324 + 797 = ?. Seriously? How is 7th/8th grade math a college math class?
Pitt isn't as good of a school as Michigan, but they aren't that far apart either. I bring all of this up because it really isn't all that difficult to get a 2.0 GPA when you are taking classes like these - even if you are practicing and working out as much as these kids do.
I believe the NCAA has a minimum, the Big Ten has a minimum, and Michigan has a minimum, each higher than the previous. If a player is above the NCAA and Big Ten minimum, but below the school minimum, they go in front of a board of professors/administrators to plea their case to be eligible to play. This was what the controversy a few years ago was about, because the members of this board are given all expenses-paid trips to these bowl games, which they might not get if they didnt allow certain players to play causing the team to lose more games. So it could be a conflict of interest...i guess
We are Michigan
And those standards would be...???
If they can get through the NCAA Clearinghouse, they can play for U-M. Now, in the case of Demar Dorsey, we see that they do still have to make it through the office of admissions, but his academics were exceptionally low for a Michigan recruit, so not much of a surprise there.
I would say that Michigan is perceived to hold their athletes to a higher standard, but providing they can keep up with coursework in a general studies or sports management degree, we're not all that picky about their academics.
Dorsey's problem was that he never actually made it through the Clearinghouse. The football staff mistakenly thought he was in the clear.
I thought he was just denied by the admissions into Michigan. Isn't he off playing at Lousiville or something now?
No, he isn't playing anywhere. Michigan, FSU and Louisville all rejected his application.
at a top-50 nationally ranked university with an FBS football team. The answer to your question is both yes and no.
The way it works is that various universities have a certain number of spots for what they will allow for what they consider non-standard admits. This definition varies at different schools. What it meant at the school that I worked for is students with a class ranking below 50% in their high school. (Caveat: I know a lot of high schools say they "do not rank their students" but 98% of schools will give either a decile ranking (i.e. 2nd decile = 10-20%) or give a grade distribution chart that makes it pretty easy to figure out where the student placed in their class when you look at their transcript). UM would have fewer spots for non-standard athletes than, say, Alabama, who likely can take whomever they want for all 85 scholarships. At the same time, it is likely that they have more spots than say a Stanford, Duke, or Wake Forest.
This way, UM can take athletes who barely scrape by NCAA Clearinghouse just as Stanford will as well. The difference is in the percentage of the team that the UM admissions office allows to be non-standard.
Of the athletes who are considered "standard" admits, many still will fall below the test scores/GPA's/Class Ranking of the "standard" UM freshman. They will, however, fall within the range of what UM will consider for a standard student. So while most of UM's freshman may have been in the top 10% of their HS classes and have an average SAT of say 1200, they admissions department would be happy to accept a Sudanese immigrant who works two jobs and managed to scrape his way into the top 30% of his HS class and did not do well on the SAT because that immigrant will bring a lot of diversity to the incoming class. The football players who are considered "standard" often get the same kind of treatment. There will still be a few athletes like Craig Roh who would likely get admitted on academics alone, but not usually very many among the scholarship athletes.
If I had to guess, the average UM recruiting class would breakdown something like this:
Out of 20 recruits:
1-2 Would get admitted to UM even if they didn't know a football from a doorknob
8-10 "Standard" Admits
10 "Non-Standard" Admits
If you ever read The Wolverine's recruiting issue, which reports recruits' grades and test scores in their profiles, we definitely aren't bringing in 8-10 guys with normal U-M qualifications in a typical year. Maybe not even half that. The average recruit will have like a 3.0 and an ACT in the low 20's (SAT in the 900-1000 range) - and those are the reported grades, which may well be exaggerated.
You'll note he called it "standard" and above wrote that this was still less than UM's normal incoming freshmen.
That's an interesting breakdown from someone with experience in an another admissions program. I wrote about it a long time ago in the Dorsey situation when I interviewed a person who formerly worked in UM admissions.
Michigan will get who they need in so long as they qualify, more or less.
Boom. Exactly what I was referring to and I'm sure the MGoPoster I was referring to. Thanks so much for the insight!
Thank you. This helps.
... Is just an excuse notre dame uses to justify being irrelevant.
Obviously the school is less strict on football players than most of the student body...but Demar Dorsey, our best recruit last year didn't get in so there are limits.
And as noted above, Dorsey didn't get admitted anywhere.
The hiring of Harbaugh will say a lot about the school's commitment to academic standards. Most schools would shun critics. Michigan will embrace one.
Plus, it will be nice to have a coach who doesn't sound sub-literate. Richrod sounds perfect for East Lansing.
Just for the purposes of clarification, are you stereotyping RR as "sub-literate" because he speaks with a WV accent? Bigotry in any form is far worse than "sub-literacy."
UM was tough enough academically for those who met the standards of admissions. It must be murder academically for athletes who 1) would not have come close to getting admitted if they were not athletes, and 2) spend an awful lot of time at practices, etc. After my undergraduate years at UM, I later studied and taught at prestigious universities. I still think the UM experience was the toughest for purely cut-throat academic toughness, because of both the refusal to inflate grades and the intellectual quality of my peers. No wonder athletes often get degrees in softer subjects: I know I wouldn't have wanted to have to compete with the UM student body if I was -- how did Tate put it -- street smarts but not book smarts. (It would be all the more reason to attend class however, and, you know, work hard.)
Yes, but they do have a lot of outside help that isn't usually available to non-athletes (and quite frankly, professors will cut them some slack).
I didn't read all the comments, but obviously the student must meet NCAA standards.
The university admits one lucky student that wouldn't normally have the grades to get in. Nobody ever knows who this student was, but that is how they justify football players having lower grades.
That is a fact, but again, I'm not sure on the amount of players. I'd assume that is just determined based on how many scholarships we have for each team.
Towards the end of the application period, they also let in a number of additional (mostly out of state) students who didn't otherwise qualify but had parents who could and were willing to pay an "admittance fee" on top of the tuition requirements. It's basically for families who are willing to pay for the prestige of having heir kid being able to struggle through a better school than they were qualified to attend (which I guess would help everyone else in terms of grading curves, but I don't really know the extent of the the perks are included with the fee).
These kids take some additional summer classes prior to freshman year starting to bolster their credentials and try to prepare them. I think athletes who wouldn't otherwise qualifiy end up in this same program (in case you've wondered why there were always some douchey bros who seemed to be acquainted with a bunch of athletes around campus, this is why).
It seems like the school allocates a set number of spots for this program to the football team each year. In a year such as this one where the scholarship class size might hit 30, you could see how more academic issues would arise than in a normal year.
I could be off on the facts, but my recollection is that one of Tommy Amaker's top recruits failed to gain admission to Michigan and subsequently enrolled at OSU. I further recall that the guy eventually bombed out there too, but if my recollection is correct, it would be an indication that Michigan has somewhat more rigorous admission standards than some of its major rivals.