Does Craig Roh move to SDE? Who replaces Heininger?
Who replaces Will Heininger on the DLine? While RVB and Martin are two huge losses, there is a third big loss on the Dline Will Heininger, with no heir apparent in the wings.
I think it is fairly safe to say Q Washington, BWC, and Richard Ash are the odds on favorites to replace RVB and Mike Martin to start the 2012 season, answers are a murkier in regards to replacing the third graduating starter on the DLine.
Can Roh move to SDE? is he big enough? If so he seems the most likely choice to replace Heininger. Nathan Brink is next in line but I don't think he will win the spot. In terms of getting the best 11 on the field, wouldn't it make more sense to move Roh and let Black and Frank Clark be the WDE's? I think Wilkins may be the most capable physically of playing the position but having never seen him play, I don't know how to judge him.
| Returning Defensive Lineman | |||
| Jibreel Black | 6'2'' | 260 | SO |
| Frank Clark | 6'2'' | 228 | FR |
| Craig Roh | 6'5'' | 269 | JR |
| Keith Heitzman | 6'3'' | 251 | FR |
| Chris Eddins | 6'5'' | 265 | RS FR |
| Chris Rock | 6'5'' | 267 | FR |
| Kenny Wilkins | 6'3'' | 280 | RS FR |
| Richard Ash | 6'3'' | 301 | RS FR |
| Alex Schwab | 6'0'' | 241 | RS JR |
| Nathan Brink | 6'5'' | 263 | RS SO |
| William Campbell | 6'5'' | 322 | JR |
| Quinton Washington | 6'4'' | 302 | RS SO |
| Graduating Defensive Lineman | |||
| Mike Martin | 6'2'' | 304 | SR |
| Will Heininger | 6'6'' | 295 | RS SR |
| Ryan Van Bergen | 6'6'' | 288 | RS SR |
| Incoming Freshman | |||
| Matt Godin | 6'6'' | 270 | HS |
| Mario Ojemudia | 6'3'' | 215 | HS |
| Ondre Pipkins | 6'3'' | 325 | HS |
| Tom Strobel | 6'6'' | 245 | HS |
| Chris Wormley | 6'4'' | 255 | HS |
I don't think any of the incoming freshman will be ready to start the opener next season over what is returning on the DLine
December 6th, 2011 at 12:01 PM ^
i think he might. i've said this before and others disagree, but i think jake ryan might grow big enough to play with his hand down, meaning roh can move to the other side.
as for the middle, i think you're looking at BWC and whoever wins between Q. Washington, Ash and Wilkins.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:37 PM ^
For next year (Roh's senior year), Ryan will remain SLB because there is no proven depth. Yadda Yadda Cam Gordon Yadda True Freshman 4* Yadda. Ryan and Roh are proven at their positions. Black can still grow, move him to SDE.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:05 PM ^
I have a feeling we're going to see Campbell, Washington, and Roh playing inside with Ryan and/or Beyer as the extra pass rusher coming off the edge. We have a ton of experience and versatility coming back at linebacker (Demens inside, Ryan/Beyer as pass rushers, Gordon/Hawthorne dropping into coverage) that I think we'll see a lot of multiple looks once Mattison has a whole offseason to tinker with guys he knows he can count on in game situations. Guessing he will be happy if the line can just eat blocks, hold their ground, and allow other guys to make plays running free.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:26 PM ^
Roh has come fairly close to maximizing a decent body weight on his body. He just isn't big enough and is much better at DE. I could see him at SDE at times, but I think he stays WDE on normal downs, getting spelled by Clark, and maybe moving to SDE or inside during obvious passing downs.
The person I expect to move over to SDE is Black. It seems that the coaches wanted Black to come in around 280 before the start of this season, IMO, with the goal in mind to move him to SDE. He seems to have the body to put on that weight. This is where I think the rotation comes in. Black, Roh, Brink at SDE. Roh, Clark, Ryan, WDE. Then Heitzman and Rock adding to the depth from there, with the potential for Rock to move to 3-tech down the line. I think Wilkins will be inside as well come next year.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:44 PM ^
I think the starting lineup will look like Ryan-Campbell-Washington-Roh most of the time, with the beef inside compensating for lighter guys on the outside. Then I think we'll see some mix and match rotation with guys like Black, Clark, Beyer, etc. on the outside, and Ash, Pipkins, etc. inside.
December 6th, 2011 at 2:43 PM ^
I highly doubt Ryan is switching positions except on obvious passing downs. Ryan is only 6'3", 230 lbs, which isn't the height or weight you want out of most DEs. He will grow, but probably to around 240-250ish, which is great for a SLB. He also is the ideal combo for SLB, which is similar to DE, but his skill set seems better at SLB than WDE. I don't see why they would move him when they have talent there and lack depth behind him at SLB and he is better suited at the latter.
December 6th, 2011 at 3:55 PM ^
What I think (or am at least just speculating about) is that he will stay at LB but we might go with more 3-4 type looks such that Ryan would be the fourth pass rusher (something he actually did a lot of this year) in most instances rather than say playing Roh and Black/Clark at the same time on opposite sides as traditional 4-3 ends.
Basically I envision Ryan playing a very similar role to the one Clay Matthews (and Cushing did it a little bit before him) played at USC as a pass rushing linebacker in a 3-4 defense that looks a lot like a 4-3 because one OLB (in this case Ryan/Matthews) is pretty much always lined up on the line. Roh, Campbell, and Washington would be on the line with Ryan usually lined up right next to them, then you could have Demens, Hawthorne/Morgan, and Gordon/Beyer all on the field at the same time as well. This seems like a recipe for an athletic, play-making defense if the two big guys can give it an anchor. It also might take some of the responsibility/weight off Jordan Kovacs shoulders in run support.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:50 PM ^
When you say he won't play inside, does that mean you don't think he can be a DE in a 3-4? My interpretation of what was said is that you would have a Roh-Campbell-Washington line with Ryan and Beyer as your OLBs in the 3-4.
December 6th, 2011 at 2:39 PM ^
I would think Roh would be like Woodley was when he started out as an OLB in the 3-4. That is, he will still mostly rush the passer and occassionally drop, which is very similar to what he did this year. With technique he can do that, and he is far better suited there than as a 265 lbs DE in a 3-4
December 6th, 2011 at 1:03 PM ^
charts at DL and LB. A DL of Roh/Black, Campbell and Washington could work with Ryan, Clark and Beyer rotating as the rush LB.
My biggest questions would be: does Mattison like the 3-4? Has he coached it a lot in the past?
December 6th, 2011 at 1:08 PM ^
I think a 4-3 under and a 3-4 with a dedicated rush end don't look all that different at the end of the day. Pete Carroll was always a 4-3 guy but used Cushing and Matthews as rush ends quite a bit. Mattison has shown he loves to zone blitz, drop linemen into coverage, and mix up looks and Ryan seems to perfectly fit that rush linebacker role. I think whether we call Ryan a DE or an OLB won't change his role very much one way or the other.
December 6th, 2011 at 4:15 PM ^
I don't think they are changing from the 4-3 under. When they want more pass coverage they shifted to their nickel package which removed a DL (usually Heininger) and put Ryan down on the line, in I think what you are calling the 3-4 with dedicated rush end. Considering that the talent level is not going up next year (outside of the incoming recruiting class, which I don't see being a factor until mid next season, much like Countess and Morgan coming in) I think it would be very foolish to change the scheme. Overall this same (Mattison will run a 3-4) argument started off last season before people were aware that Heininger and Brink were part of the team. Then we got into August and the coaching staff just constantly stating, "technique, technique, technique", until Mattison made the statement, "this is Their defense now, not My defense". These are young college kids, and consistency will beat out scheme perfection all the time. And especially since the overall talent to make up for lack of experience isn't there.
With NFL resources and talent, I think installing a new scheme is less risky. But considering how much development happens with college age players (remember Brandon Graham being considered a potential bust until he was like, Not a bust?) I think flipping between schemes is very detrimental. A big reason I'm excited to watch the bowl game is because these extra weeks of practice are going to be most important for the freshman through juniors on this team. Yes, the game itself is the last Hurrah for the Seniors, but all the practice is extra gravy for the 2012 season. Ultimately this conversation will be futile until Spring Practice starts, but considering how much Heininger became a factor as a starter this year, I fully expect Ash/Black, etc. to show up come next August.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:10 PM ^
in site in the offseason, and comes in 280+. He looks like the second coming of WH, though I know that's an oversimplification. We'd be very lucky if that were true.
He seems a lock for the platoon, given he's played more than the other candidates. Roh doesn't seem to be able to keep a lot of weight on his body, though getting sick early in training camp probably didn't help. I think it's more likely that Black bulks up and ends up at SDE.
Would love to see Wilkins work his ass off JAN-AUG and claim the other platoon spot, but he's been nearly invisible since the spring. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wormley in the second half of the season.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:28 PM ^
Brink only made one tackle all year, despite the hand-wringing that he was going to start just before the season started. Not sure he was even on the second unit late in the year when guys like Ash and Clark came in late in games.
Speaking of which, I think Frank Clark is a guy the coaches are high on and he showed some pretty impressive athleticism in his brief appearances. I think we'll see more guys like that getting playing time along with Roh, Black, Ryan, Beyer, etc. with two really big guys anchoring the inside (Campbell, Washington, Ash, Pipkins, etc.).
December 6th, 2011 at 1:54 PM ^
But I was speaking of SDE candidates only (and I understand that Brink played and was considered both a DT/SDE)
The depth chart at that position was basically RVB (when he wasn't at DT) and WH (when he wasn't at DT). When we used a SDE, 90% of the time it was one of those two, but when they put someone else on the field who could conceivably fit that role, it was Brink. Ash and QW came in at DT, and Clark at WDE. I don't see any of those playing SDE. Wilkins never played, Rock redshirted.
It will be interesting to see if we move to more of a 3-4, but regardless there will still be a lot of subbing up front.
December 6th, 2011 at 1:56 PM ^
and he'll probably take on the RVB diet to add weight.
December 6th, 2011 at 1:44 PM ^
Brink was invisible all year long. I didn't see anything out of him that made me think he should be on the two-deep at a place like Michigan.
At best I think Wilkins can be a rotation player next year. I think he's okay athletically, but from what I've seen of him, things just aren't clicking for him right now. Maybe another off-season in the system will be a benefit.
December 6th, 2011 at 1:51 PM ^
I think Wilkins gained a ton of weight under emergency conditions in spring ball where we didn't have enough bodies at DT, even though he never really had a shot to see the field at that spot. To me it seems like his more natural position has always been as an athletic DE (though that is just based on the written evaluations of him coming out of high school rather than actual observation).
Hopefully he can slim back down and doesn't end up lost in no-man's land as a tweener backup DT who doesn't ever have a realistic shot at playing.
December 6th, 2011 at 2:02 PM ^
at all. You at least know Brink was ahead of Wilkins on the depth chart.
I was a big proponent of Wilkins last offseason, hoping he'd crack the 2-deep. But that was based on very little as well. In a year where the coaches were rotating in any warm body they could, especially early, his absence spoke volumes. He's only a RS freshman of course, so I hope it clicks for him.
December 6th, 2011 at 2:15 PM ^
I saw Wilkins in the spring and wasn't impressed.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:10 PM ^
I think some of the freshmen are sure to see quite a bit of action next year. I think Pipkins has a good chance to play over Ash and Washington, for example.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:32 PM ^
i respectfully disagree. true frosh DTs are usually tossed around pretty easily by opposing OLs. pipkins is 6'3" 320. he is going to need to change a lot of that fat to muscle and may need a year to do it.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:52 PM ^
that the overall situation at DT is not ideal. I have a hard time seeing BWC, Washington, and Ash holding down the fort for an entire game, much less an entire season.
December 6th, 2011 at 1:14 PM ^
everyone agree on that, yes. but i think if pipkins contributes, it won't be right away. don't forget about wilkins, who probably is going to play inside.
we're getting close to needing a "never forget" banner for DTs with pearlie graves and dequinta jones among others. though many of the faces would just be blank because they'd be for DTs we should have recruited but didn't.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:12 PM ^
There are no shortage of options. It's all about tinkering around with it until you find something that works. I think Black has a good chance of moving to the SDE, but that's just me and my pure speculation. If they end up moving Ryan out to WDE like a lot of people are conjecturing, it allows Black to move a little bit inside from a depth perspective. Regardless, there are a lot of guys with great opportunities on the d-line. Who wants it more?
December 6th, 2011 at 1:14 PM ^
The DL ideally has plenty of rotation, but this year we saw Van Bergen and Heininger emerge as almost every-down players. Next year, you'll see a lot of players given opportunities and the best will emerge as the season progresses. Hopefully we stay healthy again.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:23 PM ^
And this is just a guess.
Ryan (SLB) - Roh - BWC - Q-Wash - Black
I think on passing downs however we're more likely to see:
Ryan - Roh - BWC??? Some DT type substance - Black. (Best pass rushers)
Remember that Mattison went to nickel by subbing in a DB for a DT. This past year that was taking out Heininger and adding Avery, with RVB sliding inside, and Ryan putting his hand down. Can he do the same with Roh? I have no idea.
Another thing to keep in mind - in a 4-3 Under your 1-Tech is its own position. This was MM, this may be BWC, or Q-Wash, is Ash's, and will be Pipkins' spot.
The 3-Tech DT is much more similar to the 5-Tech SDE. We heard good reports about BWC at the 3-Tech, and we just saw RVB switch between the two somewhat regularly. The WDE is much more similar to the SLB than another d-line position, so think of more speed from that spot.
A big thing that helped me understand the 4-3 under is to think of it like a 3-4, where one OLB has his hand down. (There are subtle shifts and other things that go into it, but from a positional standpoint this makes sense to me. I plan on doing a diary at some point regarding defenses and alignments and what not to build off the 46 one)
December 6th, 2011 at 4:31 PM ^
At least for the last two to three games, I remember seeing BWC in the 1-tech and Martin off the field. I didn't really notice Ash playing, but I don't normally track all the players down by down, just mostly that Martin and BWC are hard to mistake for other players, really. What I do remember last spring was that everyone felt BWC had to either learn how to be a 3-tech or Mattison would have to scheme a 3-4. Instead Heininger ends up a starter over BWC, and slowly BWC moves from backup 3-tech to backup 1-tech.
Someone else will emerge, and considering on field experience as important, Jibreel Black is the most likely candidate to show up at 5-tech, with Ash as the 3-tech. All in all what I'm most confident in is that they won't change from the 4-3 Under, and they will still focus on stopping the run first, QB's running second, and everything else being left up to grit and emerging young talent in the secondary. I mean, when you think about it, who were the truly elite WR in the Big Ten this year?
December 6th, 2011 at 6:29 PM ^
Floyd, McNutt, Cunningham, and Posey were very good. All gone for next year, though
December 6th, 2011 at 12:14 PM ^
...Eats everything in sight....Hopefully he doesn't get any tips on that from Gittelson....
December 6th, 2011 at 12:44 PM ^
Or perhaps we could have the S&C fellow that worked with Jake Long, or Woodley, a pair of Heisman winners and Tom Brady?
I like the looks of the incoming class. It isn't so much that I expect them to start as freshmen, but I think they will be pushing the starters hard.
December 6th, 2011 at 2:14 PM ^
I get where you're coming from, but you might want to drop Brady from your argument. Have you forgotten his picture from the draft combine? He looked like a 60 year old man.
<br>I'm on my phone, or I would link.
<br>
December 6th, 2011 at 12:16 PM ^
Thank you for starting a thread that discusses actual football, as opposed to the BCS, OSU's coaches, Dunn, and more BCS (not that there is anything at all wrong with any of those topics or the posts about them, just nice to see football talk).
I assume that Ryan will stay on the outside, along with Roh, and that the inside will be made up of some combination of BWC, Black, Washington and Ash. Also, don't forget about the incoming beast named Pipkins - he is said by many to be "college ready" and if there is a need, I expect that Hoke will not hesitate to burn his redshirt.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:20 PM ^
Coaches are expecting Wormley & Godin to come in and compete for the SDE right away.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:54 PM ^
This would surprise me, as I was thinking that one or both of these players would be looked at as a 3 tech (especially Godin). I think is almost a guarentee to redshirt next year, and I am not sure if Strobel is ready to go as a true frosh or not. I guess losing Brown from the DL would probably force the staff to keep one of these two at DE, but with their frames, I could see both of them playing inside, at least in some situations.
December 6th, 2011 at 1:38 PM ^
Kinda surprised me too but I have a pretty good source saying they expecting both those guys to play at SDE and not redshirt. Things may change when they step on campus but we'll see.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:23 PM ^
I think Pipkins plays as well but his plays will come at the expense of Washington, Campbell and Ash. None of those players will be playing SDE. Heininger was nearly 300 pounds, I don't see anyone on the roster approaching his size, with the ability to play SDE. Honestly IDK that being 300 pounds is a necessity, but I do like the idea of being big along the interior.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:57 PM ^
Kenny Wilkins looks like he has the size to replace Heininger. He is 3 inches shorter, but already 280 and could easily be around 290 or so by the time next fall rolls around. I also think that Black has the frame to put on weight, and I also see him as a poor mans Brandon Graham at the position.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:25 PM ^
I think Pipkins comes in and starts right away. Once he gets through camp and gets some technique tips he will be a force.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:26 PM ^
My guess right now...
SDE: Roh, Brink, Wormley (just for this season, eventual move to 3 tech)
3 tech: Black, Q-Wash, Wilkins
NT: Campbell, Pipkins, Ash
WDE: Ryan, Clark, Ojemudia (situational pass rusher)
I feel pretty confident that both Wormley and Pipkins will play next year, and I could see Strobel, Godin or Ojemudia each redshirting, or each playing.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:27 PM ^
to follow in RVB's footsteps. He's going to put on some weight in the offseason so I'd guesstimate him at least a 270 going into the season. He's looking like a brick wall as it is, so he should see some ryan or morgan-esque minutes throughout the games.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:53 PM ^
According to people on premium websites, Wormley is 6'7", 270-280 right now, and is ready to play as a freshman.
December 6th, 2011 at 1:01 PM ^
Watched him play last year, seems like he stood up a lot, they will definitely need to work on his technique. He is very raw, but an excellent athlete. A red-shirt would really benefit him. HOWEVA, if he is one of the best 11 on D, then he has to play.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:35 PM ^
Roh, Black, Campbell, and arguably Clark will be the only ones with much experience. Roh doesn't have ideal size for a SDE but he's big enough to play it and almost never gets wiped out on runs. Black is likely to stay ahead of everyone else at WDE. On passing downs I can see Clark rotating in and Black replacing one of the DTs. Roh and Black will also have to rotate out some of the time and the backup positions are up for grabs. Clark may not be big enough to spell Black on non-passing downs.
At DT, Campbell is already an adequate space-eater and should improve, although he will have to rotate out a lot. Washington seems to be further along than the other guys, but he has also been in the program the longest and you would expect the younger guys to progress more than he will between now and the beginning of next season. Because everyone is so inexperienced, I would not be surprised to see Pipkins beat some or all of the others out. At least we have a lot of options there, even if none of them have done much at the college level yet.
December 6th, 2011 at 1:14 PM ^
that Washington spent time on the OL so he may still be on the upside of the growth curve, experience wise. Or to put more clearly, he doesn't necessarily have that much experience on the DL.
December 6th, 2011 at 1:16 PM ^
move along - repeat post due to a slow server and impatient poster (me)
December 6th, 2011 at 3:44 PM ^
In general I think that is true. However, I think with UM there's some variables that might add a twist. It seems from all reports that RR and company didn't really teach technique and do much on the defensive side. So yeah, a guy like Washington has been in the program longer than others but he's probably really only had a lot of coaching and teaching on the defensive side for one year. This is the first year in a while I can remember the defense and a lot of players on defense showing noticeable improvement from September through November.
It'll be interesting to see what bowl practices and another off-season of getting instruction from the defensive coaches does to the players on the defensive side.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:35 PM ^
To me, Ryan looks huge out there. With all the LBs coming in, if one impresses (Ross? Bolden?), it would not surprise me if Ryan moved to DE, maybe next year if not this year. I also agree with the posters who suggest Pipkins will play this year. It would not surprise me if Wormley saw some PT too; I think he is going to be much better than his late ratings indicated. The likes of Ash, Washington and even BWC haven't shown much yet, and if they don't improve they won't play.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:45 PM ^
After the year Ryan had playing OLB I think you would be crazy to move him. Just my imo.
December 6th, 2011 at 12:53 PM ^
I kind of agree with you in that I think it would be ideal to keep Ryan at LB if possible, but I think the coaches would rather have another experienced DL and inexperienced LB than the other way around. At least by moving Ryan to DE, you could have the potential to have Cam Gordon start. If you keep Ryan at DE, you keep Gordon on the bench and you have less experienced guys on the line, which is less ideal IMO.