Division Tie Breakers

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October 25th, 2011 at 7:08 PM
#1
wildbackdunesman
Joined: 07/16/2008
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Division Tie Breakers

I know it is way too early and there is a lot of work left to be done, but...

 

BigTen Division Tie Breakers:

1. Conference record

2. Head-to-head record

3. Record within the division

4. BCS ranking

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/23622/the-basic-big-ten-divisio...

 

Current Standings:

* - Michigan State 3-0 6-1
* - Michigan 2-1 6-1
* - Nebraska 2-1 6-1
Iowa 2-1 5-2
Minnesota 0-3 1-6
Northwestern 0-4 2-5

In order for Michigan to reach the conference championship game it looks like we's need MSU to lose twice in order to pass them as they have us head to head.

There can't be a 3 way tie of one loss teams -- as Michigan vs MSU is the only matchup yet to have happened in the top 4 of the division.  It will be tough for us to win out and have MSU lose twice.

It is possible for Michigan to win a 3 way tie of 2 loss teams against MSU and either Iowa or Nebraska...assuming we beat the other one and MSU loses to them.  What helps us there is that both MSU and Iowa have a loss out of conference lowering their BCS ranking, because at that point we'd have a better overall record.

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October 25th, 2011 at 7:12 PM | I like how Minnesota is (Score:3 Normal)
BlueBarron
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I like how Minnesota is ranked higher than Northwestern because they start with an 'M' instead of an 'N'.

On topic, didn't this happen a couple years ago when Texas, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech had a three way tie and it came down to BCS rankings?

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October 25th, 2011 at 7:22 PM | more likely (Score:5 Normal)
A2MIKE
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Minnesota is higher due to having lost only 3 conference games v. Northwestern's 4 losses.

 

And yes this did happen in the old Big 12 and it came down to BCS ranking.

October 26th, 2011 at 9:49 AM | Forget tie breaker (Score:1)
hailhail97
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What determines the division winner?  Is it just division record? There is no mention of overall record.  Would it be possible (hypothetically) for MSU to lose all non-division games and win all division games and win the division with a 5-7 record?  While Michigan could be 11-1 with their only loss to MSU and be 2nd in the division?

"It's me Bitches"
-Ari Gold

October 26th, 2011 at 9:54 AM | Conference (Score:4 Normal)
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 4160

No. Conference record first. 

This is another good example of why division record can't be the standard by which division winners are chosen.

October 26th, 2011 at 10:47 AM | So to be clear (Score:1)
hailhail97
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Hypothetical: If MSU goes 5-0 in division but loses the 2 B1G non-division games to finish 5-2 in B1G & 5-0 in the Legends division and Michigan goes 6-1 with it's 1 loss being to MSU to finish 6-1 in B1G & 4-1 in Lengends division Michigan wold win the division?

 

MSU division record 5-0 B1G record 5-2

Michigan division record 4-1 B1G record 6-1

= Michigan Legends division champs?

 

"It's me Bitches"
-Ari Gold

October 26th, 2011 at 11:14 AM | Yep. (Score:4 Normal)
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 4160

Exactly. Division record only comes into consideration after conference record and head to head.

Of course, the only non-West division game that MSU has left is against Indiana (their protected crossover game .... yeah) so if they lose 2, they're likely going to be division games.

October 26th, 2011 at 11:16 AM | Thanks (Score:1)
hailhail97
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Thanks for clearing that up.

"It's me Bitches"
-Ari Gold

October 27th, 2011 at 2:18 AM | Then all players will have nightmares forever (Score:1)
Muttley
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about that 8th and final B1G game that they forgot to show up for.

October 25th, 2011 at 7:22 PM | What happens if both Mich (Score:2)
Hokemania
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What happens if both Mich teams win out, then Mich St loses the rematch in the B1G championship game.  Would we then have a chance of being the second B1G BCS team or the fact that they made the championship game outweighs the fact that they have two losses.

Also, I know the conference isn't guaranteed two BCS berths but it is a trend.

Whatcha gonna do, little brother?

October 25th, 2011 at 7:26 PM | I'd say State would get it.  (Score:3 Normal)
AmaizeingBlue
Joined: 09/01/2010
MGoPoints: 1345

I'd say State would get it.  But if they lost to Nebraska, and we both won out from there.  I'd think we would get if State lost in the BTCG.  We'd be 11-1 and State would be 10-3

October 25th, 2011 at 8:15 PM | I just don't want a whole (Score:1)
ThadMattasagoblin
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I just don't want a whole week where we have to hear about Dantonio and how he's turned it around and how it's such a clean program.  That's why we need them to lose twice and win out.

903 wins most in college football

October 26th, 2011 at 9:34 AM | I almost died laughing at the thought (Score:1)
coastal blue
Joined: 11/13/2010
MGoPoints: 1791

of an 11-1 Michigan team getting passed over for an 11-2 MSU team. Just because we've been out of the BCS picture for a few years doesn't change the fact that we would pull far better numbers than Sparty ever could. There is literally no way MSU would take the the second BCS spot over us. (Think about when Kansas got in over Missouri over a few years ago for an actual technical example.)

Win out and we go to a BCS bowl one way or another. 

One thing's for sure: Michigan fans aren't as arrogant as we used to be. 

October 27th, 2011 at 2:21 AM | Actually, being out of the decent bowl picture (Score:1)
Muttley
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would play a factor...

It means there's a lot of pent-up demand in Michigan fans for traveling to a real bowl game. 

October 25th, 2011 at 7:28 PM | In that hypothetical I could (Score:1 Overrated)
State Street
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In that hypothetical I could see them choosing UM: we would have 1 loss to MSU's 2.  

However, why couldn't there be a 3 way tie between UM, MSU, and Nebraska?  If each team finishes with one loss, we would have beaten Nebraska and NU would have beaten MSU.  In that case each team would be 1-1 against the group and the tiebreaker would come down to BCS ranking.  Possible?

October 25th, 2011 at 7:35 PM | (Score:1)
robmorren2
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Because Nebraska lost to Wisconsin. They already have a loss. A loss to UM would be their 2nd. Unless Cousins goes down or something crazy happens, we are FUBAR.

October 25th, 2011 at 7:51 PM | BCS bowls usually take the (Score:0 Overrated)
October 25th, 2011 at 7:57 PM | Exactly. Who would (Score:2 Normal)
hart20
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Sell more tickets? Us or Sparty? It would be great to hear the tears of Sparty fans everywhere.

Yep, that's Simba made out of a pineapple.

October 25th, 2011 at 8:08 PM | Especially when you cross out (Score:0 Overrated)
October 25th, 2011 at 7:27 PM | this has (Score:-1 Trolling)
October 25th, 2011 at 7:32 PM | yeah the BIG 12 (Score:1)
manchild56
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that was a freaking mess the yeat Texas, OK, and Tech all tied. That may have been the worst tie breaker ever. Tech knocks off number 1 sooners on the road if i recall right and doesnt get the nod.

21 years of coaching and every senior who stayed had at least 1 big ten title... That is what " Those who stay will be champions" will really get you Ohio native Bo Schembechler.

October 25th, 2011 at 9:43 PM | Big 12 (Score:3 Normal)
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 4160

Tech lost at OU that year.

OU lost to UT

UT lost to TT

TT lost to OU 

Basically, it came down to which team lost first.

October 26th, 2011 at 9:37 AM | That was such a joke. (Score:1)
coastal blue
Joined: 11/13/2010
MGoPoints: 1791

Texas should have gotten the title game spot. 

They beat OU by 10 at a neutral field and lost at TT by a last second touchdown. 

OU blew out TT at home late in the season, so of course that was all voters cared about. 

October 25th, 2011 at 7:33 PM | New tie-breakers (Score:0 Offtopic)
October 25th, 2011 at 7:33 PM | F-it (Score:1)
Mr. Yost
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Go 11-1, and get to a BCS game even if it's not 12-1 and the Rose Bowl. After the past 3 years anyone who complains at that should be junk punched. Stood up. And junk punched again.

“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”

October 25th, 2011 at 7:38 PM | simply put nice (Score:1)
manchild56
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I am pretty sure I like the way you put it nice and simple right to the point win and get to the BIG 10 title game.

21 years of coaching and every senior who stayed had at least 1 big ten title... That is what " Those who stay will be champions" will really get you Ohio native Bo Schembechler.

October 25th, 2011 at 7:36 PM | Michigan (Score:0 Flamebait)
October 25th, 2011 at 7:42 PM | most likely (Score:1)
manchild56
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but that is why they play every saturday cause anything can happen, injuries freak hail marys, and we have Denard so we can win any game on any given weekend just cause of him.

21 years of coaching and every senior who stayed had at least 1 big ten title... That is what " Those who stay will be champions" will really get you Ohio native Bo Schembechler.

October 25th, 2011 at 7:54 PM | The rest of the Big Ten (Score:2 Normal)
hart20
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Isn't there yet either.

Yep, that's Simba made out of a pineapple.

October 25th, 2011 at 9:52 PM | posted from iPhone (Score:1)
allintime23
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I agree. It's an open field. State has played well but honestly their luck is insane. That can't possibly continue.

All in for some manball.

October 25th, 2011 at 9:39 PM | not so sure (Score:1)
Nick
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You could make those statements in a context-less vaccum and be reasonably sure that you'd be correct.

But this year's Big Ten has no elite teams and every game is winnable.

Based on  our chances of beating our remaining opponents being

purdue -90, iowa - 55, illinois - 55, nebraska -45, ohio state - 50

probability math says a 6% chance of 11-1.

And that assumes that each game (and its probability of M winning) is independent, when in reality those %'s probably rise with each succesive win.

October 25th, 2011 at 8:09 PM | Hmmm ... (Score:1)
Indiana Blue
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I think I have it:

             CART      HORSE

 

Go Blue!

No place on earth I'd rather be on a football Saturday than Michigan Stadium !

October 25th, 2011 at 8:17 PM | 4 out of 5 of MSU's games are (Score:1 Normal)
joeyb
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4 out of 5 of MSU's games are against divisional foes. So, if they lose 2 games, unless they lose to Indiana, they will have 2 division losses. If we beat Nebraska and Iowa, win 2 of the other 3, and Nebraska wins the rest of their games, then we will win the division.

October 25th, 2011 at 9:55 PM | Division Losses (Score:2 Normal)
UMGoRoss
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Division records are irrelevant, Conference record is whats important. An MSU loss to Indiana is just as helpful as a loss to Iowa.  Same goes for us: losing to Illinois is just as bad as losing to Iowa.

 

Go Blue!

October 26th, 2011 at 2:48 AM | No... Look at the 3rd tie (Score:2 Normal)
joeyb
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No...

Look at the 3rd tie breaker. If we are in a 3-way tie with MSU and Nebraska, MSU having an additional loss in the conference knocks them out and gives us the tie breaker. If they lose to Indiana and one of the other teams, then it goes to BCS ranking. MSU will be ranked lower for having 3 losses and I would imagine that we would be within 1 of Nebraska or ranked ahead of them considering we just beat them. So, as long as we beat Nebraska and Iowa, win 2 of the other 3, Nebraska wins out, and MSU loses at least 2, we are probably set. If MSU beats Indiana then that seals it given the rest of the above.

October 25th, 2011 at 8:23 PM | I would not be surprised if State lost twice (Score:1)
g_reaper3
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Road games in the B1G are tough. Last year they got blown out by Iowa on the road and needed a big comeback (complete with trick play) to beat Northwestern. They did lose by 18 to ND this year and while the score was farther apart than the game, they still were outplayed some.

The harder part is for us to win 4 of 5 games. If we do that, I think we will all be happy regardless.

Go Blue!

October 25th, 2011 at 9:23 PM | You Forgot #5 (Score:2 Normal)
LSAClassOf2000
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1. Conference record

2. Head-to-head record

3. Record within the division

4. BCS ranking

There's also....

5. Order Of Finish For Teams In NL Central Division

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October 25th, 2011 at 9:53 PM | Time (Score:1)
gjking
Joined: 10/16/2011
MGoPoints: 37

We need a week or two to really get a better sense of the standings. Any of the top 4 teams still have a good chance, the bottom two do not. That is all we've really learned. MSU is in the driver's seat, but it does seem likely they lose one or twice. I think they'll lose on the road this weekend.

It really hurts to think about what this looks like if Ohio had beaten MSU/Nebraska.

 

 

 

 

 

October 25th, 2011 at 10:11 PM | So.... (Score:1)
robmorren2
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If MSU wins out, and we win out, do we make the BCS over Wisconsin? That's the question.

October 26th, 2011 at 9:41 AM | Yes (Score:1)
coastal blue
Joined: 11/13/2010
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If we win out, we will be in a BCS bowl game. It's as simple as that. 

Why?

Let's say MSU wins out and wins their rematch against Wisconsin. They would seal the auto-bid and Wisconsin would have two losses to our one. We get that nod over Wisconsin every time. 

Or, if MSU loses the rematch to Wisconsin, they would have two losses to our one and once again, we would easily step in over them as we can draw far better TV ratings, ticket sales, etc. 

October 25th, 2011 at 10:26 PM | well (Score:1)
manchild56
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whoever is ranked higher between badgers and us would decide that, and whos a better draw between us would have the final say with the bcs,

21 years of coaching and every senior who stayed had at least 1 big ten title... That is what " Those who stay will be champions" will really get you Ohio native Bo Schembechler.

October 26th, 2011 at 12:29 AM | If we win out, I think we (Score:2)
turd ferguson
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If we win out, I think we probably go to the BTCG.  Here's MSU's remaining schedule:

@ Nebraska
vs. Minnesota
@ Iowa
vs. Indiana
@ Northwestern

Their homes games are soft, but I bet they lose on Saturday and then split the Iowa and Northwestern games.

I just doubt that we'll win out.  If that happens, we have to hope for a multi-team tie and hope for the best with tiebreakers.

October 26th, 2011 at 12:31 AM | I don't care about any of this shit anymore (Score:-1 Overrated)
October 26th, 2011 at 12:39 AM | Sorry to be an ass, but this (Score:4 Normal)
turd ferguson
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Sorry to be an ass, but this is completely incoherent.  You "don't care about this shit anymore," but the BTCG is "great" while everything else is "meh."

October 26th, 2011 at 11:21 AM | I think he (Score:2)
HouseThatYostBuilt
Joined: 03/19/2011
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means "meh, I'll live with it".

GBOD

October 26th, 2011 at 7:19 AM | Number 4 is BS... (Score:2 Normal)
Fredgoblu
Joined: 11/11/2010
MGoPoints: 96

Until the BCS is completely objective, why don't you make it something fun, like Blogpoll ranking, or Oiuja Board ranking. Does the BCS not use the Coaches' Poll...and has the Coaches' Poll not been gamed in the past by less-than-scrupulous coaches?



Division champ should be:



Division record

Head to head

Conference record

Overall record



Putting conference record first rewards teams with weaker interdivision schedules. To put division record at #3 minimizes the point of divisions, in the first place.

October 26th, 2011 at 9:48 AM | hypothetical (Score:2)
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 4160

The counterpoint, of course, is that putting conference record third minimizes the point of having a conference. In you situation, you have two conferences with a loose affiliation who agree to have a playoff.

There is literally no sports league that ranks division record first -- NCAA, NFL, NBA, NHL -- all of them favor the greater information available from a greater pool of results. NCAA football is unique in creating a system where a certain number of games don't count meaningfully toward championships, but to reduce that number to 5 games would introduce a number of unrepresentative division champions that would potentially hurt the league.

Example. Team A goes 5-3 in conference, losing every cross division game. They also lose a non-conference game for a final record of 8-4, finishing out of the final rankings.

Team B goes 11-1, losing only at Team A on a Hail Mary after their star player goes out with a sprained ankle. They finish #4.

In the other division, Team C has run the table and haven't played Team B. They beat Team A by 35, and are ranked #2, (behind a 10-2 SEC team that has signed 246 recruits over the course of three years, commentators rave about that team's depth of talent.)

Is it in the best interest of the conference, and the wider exercise of "who is the best team in conference" to have the 5-3 (5-0) team make the championship game over the 7-1 (4-1) team?

October 26th, 2011 at 10:55 AM | Exactly (Score:3 Normal)
Alton
Joined: 07/05/2008
MGoPoints: 990

Or, to put it more bluntly, if you think the Michigan State-Wisconsin game should not affect the Big Ten standings, then why is the Big Ten making those teams play each other in the first place?  Why not just have a 5-game conference schedule of division games and let the teams fill out the other 7 games in their schedule against whomever they want.

Division-only records is a terrible idea, which is why no league in the nation uses that system.

October 26th, 2011 at 9:39 AM | we dont need this (Score:-1 Flamebait)
October 26th, 2011 at 6:24 PM | Well then the Big Ten website (Score:1)
Chewer D
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Well then the Big Ten website is wrong..

http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-footbl/archive/081011aaa.html

 

This states that the "record", not conference record, is the first tie breaker. Common conference opponents is the 4th criteria. Am I reading that wrong?

 

"It's great to be a Michigan Wolverine!!"

October 26th, 2011 at 6:30 PM | Nope. (Score:1)
Scott
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Losing to Iowa would be much worse than losing to Illinois. (Or Purdue or OSU, for that matter, rivalry aside.)

 

Say that happened and we ended up tied with Iowa and MSU for 1st in the division, each of us with two losses.

 

Guess who the first team eliminated is? Michigan, because we went 0-2 against the other two teams (head-to-head is the first tie-breaker). Esentially whoever wins the MSU-Iowa game would be divison champ.

 

In fact, the only way we're going to win most of the two-loss tiebreakers is by making sure we sweep the rest of the division for a 4-1 record in division.

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