Did We Just Watch the Turning Point Game of the Hoke Era?
In retrospect turning points are always easy to see. Looking back through history we can clearly mark the 1969 Ohio State game as the turning point in Bo's career and that victory as the marker that the Michigan program was changing for the better under his leadership. But I don't know that too many people back in 1969 could predict just how good things would go over the next 20 years with Bo.
Rich Rod also had a turning point game and the similarities to yesterday's debacle are striking IMO. Year three of his tenure and on October 30th, 2010, Michigan went to Penn State with two weeks to prepare and got beat soundly on national TV. It was the game that virtually everyone points to as "the beginning of the end" of the RR regime as it became painfully obvious that we had a defense incapable of stopping anyone (even a true Freshman QB like Matt McGloin). As everyone remembers, that season sputtered to a 7-6 finish despite our 5-0 start with the wheels coming completely off the wagon at the end.
Brady Hoke, in year three of his tenure, with two weeks to prepare, took his team to East Lansing yesterday and got drilled just like we did in Happy Valley in 2010 - albeit with a different side of the ball falling apart completely. This team also started 5-0 but can anyone look at the remaining schedule and not say that a 7-6 finish this for this team is possible if not probable? And would a steadily declining W-L record over three years be considered acceptable by the fan base or Dave Brandon?
To be clear I am NOT calling for Hoke to be fired here. But I wonder, again with the benefit of hindsight, what would've happened in 2010 if Rich had fired Tony Gibson immediately after the PSU game and told Brandon the next day he needed to get a new Defensive Coordinator in next year? Because that IS what I believe should happen with this year's team - Funk should be let go immediately and Hoke should tell Brandon today to start the search process for a new OC. But because I don't forsee either of those events occurring I wonder if we'll look back at yesterday's game sometime in the future as the "beginning of the end" of the Hoke era.
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:46 AM ^
The problem with firing a coach after 3 years is that it sets a precedent for the next coach. Telling the fan base we need to give Hoke 5 years when the previous guy got only 3 isn't going to cut it for most fans.
...and the problems with the current o-line isn't previous recruiting, it's current player development. Player development is a real issue accross the board, actually.
November 4th, 2013 at 12:31 AM ^
November 4th, 2013 at 8:23 AM ^
So one guy gets more time because he inherited a better team full of veterans from the previous two guys which allowed him to go 11-2 against a weak schedule?
November 5th, 2013 at 4:33 PM ^
that Dave Brandon and the fans think the only difference that matters is the difference between 15-22 and 25-9.
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:49 AM ^
One of the key things I've looked at concerning our O-line comparing this year and the 2011 group. 2011 had a Rimington award winning center, a future all-american sophomore, an under appreciated senior, and two juniors. The lack of O-line recruiting for nearly 3 years is biting UM severely in the ass right now. Funk was able to improve the O-lines at both Ball State and SDSU, but he's working with a vastly inexperienced interior. And let's face it MSU proved that they're the #1 defense yesterday and I honestly think they're the only team capable of beating ohio this year.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:19 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:49 AM ^
If Hoke and Brandon do as you say, and rid the program of Funk and Borges come season end, then there is hope for the Hoke era. If they do not, then you are correct, the Hoke era will end soon enough.
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:58 AM ^
Not that it matters in the least but I'm curious why you downvoted my post given that it would seem you and I agree on Borges, Funk and the Hoke regime in general.
November 3rd, 2013 at 4:42 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 12:02 PM ^
No, we did not. What's the average player age on this team? What's DG's number of total games played at QB? How long has it been since Michigan had NO ONE in the secondary?
What we just watched is pretty much what we should have expected, if we were objective realists. My only surprise is that the sread was so off.
We will look back at this game, the osu, and this year as another series of labor pains.
What will be delivered is going to make everyone proud. Personally, I would only be concerned if the current staff were below average recruiters........
November 4th, 2013 at 8:25 AM ^
How does Michigan have no one in the secondary?
November 3rd, 2013 at 12:25 PM ^
as much as i'd like to think al borges cost us this game, it was the OL getting absolutley whipped, to a man, on every play that lost this game. Each man on the OL got his ass kicked on each and every play. Devin had no chance. Al had no chance. Between Kalis whiffing, Schofield getting mauled, Lewan losing his composure, Glasgow firing snaps 20 yards downfield, this OL is the worst I have ever seen. I hate to see what this OL is going to do vs Nebraska - they will get them back their black shirts. We'll make NW DL look like the Berlin Wall.
November 3rd, 2013 at 12:33 PM ^
Could be, but it can go both ways. Hoke isn't going to be fired at the end of the season. He bought enough goodwill before the year to ensure that. Instead of comparing him to RR, people should think about John Beilein, whose third team went 15-17 (worse than most of the Amaker years) but was retained due to performing better previously. But he recognized that changes needed to be made, and he hired new assistants.
Hoke has his own job security but that of his assistants is another story. I believe he can and will make necessary changes. A game like this, with -48 rushing yards and six points, can make that difficult conversation easier. I don't think he'll fire anyone midseason, though. That's not very common. He'll give his assistants the rest of the year to show what they can do, and at season's end make the necessary evaluations.
November 3rd, 2013 at 12:38 PM ^
We have an absolutely horrifying home schedule next year, and it doesn't seem like this team has too many answers right now....
Next season should be a joy!
November 3rd, 2013 at 12:48 PM ^
Time for Brandon to get off his high horse and fire Hoke after the season. Michigan has deep pockets time to go get a high profile excellent coach from the NFL. Gruden is a coach I would love to see here. Money talks and Gruden is a firey coach that wont except this total collapase of the Michigan players. You wont lose out in recruiting bringing a coach in like Gruden either.
November 3rd, 2013 at 1:34 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 1:12 PM ^
Im surprised how poorly prepared Michigan teams are on the road, under Hoke.
He clearly struggles with road prep. Nice guy...great guy... but the road may be his eventual downfall at Michigan.
That said, i believe that Michigan is 4 players away from being a top 15 team and beating MSU: Center, 2 Guards and QB.
With 3 good interior OL and a QB who understands how to work the pocket and read defense, throwing accurately....Michigan would be undefeated right now.
November 4th, 2013 at 10:55 AM ^
I would at least agree that we are three players away from being 7-1 and favored to end up 10-2 (G-C-G). That would have been a very acceptable outcome. I can envision a scenario under which those guys are assets next year, but for the love of God, Darrell Funk has absolutely got to go. Have him resign for "personal reasons" at the end of this year or see if some sucker MAC school will hire him, which often happens with crummy Big Ten assistants for some reason.
Not sure that I agree about Gardner. He has more than enough assets as a QB to where you can build an elite offense around him. He is at least a 2nd team all Big Ten caliber guy with a competent offensive line.
November 3rd, 2013 at 1:15 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 1:25 PM ^
Iowa and Northwestern will be losses and possibly Nebraska
November 3rd, 2013 at 2:28 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 1:31 PM ^
It doesn't matter whether you're talking about a small business, non-profit institution, or a football team—if the head guy or woman is in charge long enough, their personality will suffuse and define the organization.
In college football, I think there are four distinct personality types that characterize most coaches. All coaches display mixtures of these traits, but each coach has a dominant characteristic.
A. Demanding taskmaster—aggressive, military-style, devoted to extremely rigorous work regimen, details and execution, but not necessarily innovators; frequently an asshole; doesn't give a shit if you like them, but demands that you respect them. Knows exactly who they are and what they want, and will not let anybody stand in their way; frequently hired to revive foundering program; Woody Hayes, Fielding Yost, Bear Bryant, Darrel Royal, Tom Coughlin (coached at BC), Nick Saban, Jim Harbaugh, Barry Alvarez, Mark Dantonio
B. Innovator—thinking, cerebral, or creative in developing offensive or defensive schemes; doesn't give a shit if you like them, but demands that you be a thinker too. Does not tolerate dullards or the mistake-prone. Generally an outside hire; Fritz Crisler, early RR, Urban Meyer, Mike Leach, Brian Kelly, Chip Kelly, Paul Brown, early Steve Spurrier, early Bob Stoops, Bill Walsh, Emory Bellard; (maybe even Frank Beamer if you include special teams); sometimes reputation for genius is entirely undeserved (Charlie Weis) or is at best ill-suited to the college game
C. Program manager—Frequent inside hires as replacement for iconic coaches; bureaucratic stewardship; generally bland, unassuming public demeanor in contrast to predecessors; always says "the right things" in public; not generally innovators but can be very successful in the right conditions and with good instincts in choosing assistants; very attentive to program reputation and tradition; normally very loyal to assistants and players; Tom Osborne, Frank Solich, Earle Bruce, Fred Akers, Kirk Ferentz, Bret Bielema, Bob Davie, John Robinson
D. Player's coach—Prizes relationships with players and enjoys being seen as one of them; frequently inspirational, sometimes innovative, strong recruiter; occasionally tolerant if not encouraging of player misbehavior on and off the field; Barry Switzer, Jimmy Johnson, Pete Carroll, Les Miles
Bo Schembechler's legendarily fiery, aggressive and combative personality (Bo could be a real dick if you weren't on his side) was coupled with extremely high standards for production and a tremendous grasp of fundamental details, and the result was what came to define Michigan football for the vast majority of us growing up. Bo was major part A
Gary Moeller was fundamentally different in personality from Bo (at least outwardly) but he was a thinking offensive innovator who put together some high-powered offenses that were among the nation's best, and got a Heisman for one his guys in the bargain. Combination of B and C.
RR was an offensive innovator with much of the same fire and intensity as Bo, but unfortunately he almost completely lacked Bo's ability to discern and hire great assistant coaches, especially on the defensive side. That was crippling, since RR also played surprisingly little role in the defensive side of the game himself, another huge contrast to Bo. Combination of B and A
Lloyd Carr was thoughtful, reflective, and cautious—frequently maddeningly so—but he was extremely intense nonetheless, and when his back was to the wall, was able to throw his natural caution to the wind and let the dogs out, so to speak. That's why most of the great comebacks in Michigan football history happened under his watch, and also why he was able to break with tradition and give a significant offensive role to his best defensive player, leading to another Heisman and a national title. Extremely devoted to the tradition and reputation of Michigan. Strong part C
Which brings us to Hoke in terms of football personality. Fiery, aggressive, or combative demanding asshole taskmaster chewing players or assistants out either in practice or on the sidelines? Nope. Cerebral offensive or defensive innovator whose ideas and theories are copied by other coaches? Nope.
Bland, unassuming public demeanor, always saying "the right things" in public, very attentive to program reputation and tradition, very loyal to assistants and players? Bingo.
I think Hoke is a mixture of heavy C with the best elements of D. The big question is whether Hoke is able to assemble a top-notch staff. If he can, he can be very successful. If he doesn't, he won't last.
November 3rd, 2013 at 2:56 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 1:33 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:39 PM ^
November 4th, 2013 at 10:56 AM ^
Please, God, no.
November 3rd, 2013 at 3:10 PM ^
I'm just sick and tired of getting outcoached in every game. We should be the ones outcoaching or find someone who can.
November 3rd, 2013 at 3:37 PM ^
I haven't yet seen someone bring in Brian's comparison between Beilein and Hoke. In my mind, Hoke is similar to Cooper, in that he coaches the coaches (except, of course, that he gets the rivalries). He thus depends upon having great assistants, and unlike in previous years it seems that Brandon will pay well to make sure that that happens. In that case, will Hoke do what Beilein did after year 3 and bring in new assistants? Or will he stay loyal to Bourges (in particular - I'm not ready to get rid of someone who has made UM's defense relevant again)?
I'm also not ready to throw Funk under the bus. As much as I think Bourges has called a couple of brilliant games, his mind-set is so old-school (use this to set up that, depend upon great athletes making great plays rather than schemes) that I'm not sure any OL can succeed. I'm old, but I love the Art Briles, we-try-to-score-on-every-play mentality, and I think that the OC can create an environment that makes everyone successful.
In my mind, the PSU game was a huge out-coaching - they were ready for the extra tackle, for instance, and UM kept trying to run it. This game wasn't being out-coached - MSU has gotten better all year, and they have found a quarterback who's not horrible.
If Hoke agrees to let Gorgeous Al Bourges retire, then we definitely know something about him - he wants to take this program to that proverbial, long-sought-after, perhaps-mythical next level.
November 3rd, 2013 at 5:05 PM ^
How we doin mom?
This is a list of the 2011 coaching hires and what the records of these teams are as of today -
Maryland 11-21
Miami 20-12
West Virginia 21-14
Indiana 8-24
Michigan 25-9
Minnesota 16-18
North Texas 15-18
Tulsa 21-14
Ball State 23-11
San Diego State 21-13
Stanford 30-5
Florida 22-12
Vanderbilt 19-15
Louisiana Lafayette 24-10
So you know whatever, some programs were in good shape when new coaches walked in and some in bad shape.
November 3rd, 2013 at 5:49 PM ^
Just rewatched the first half and start of second. Devin was taking a long time to get rid of the ball 4-5 sec even on short passes. State was getting rid of the ball much faster around 3 sec. I like Devin but he looked unsure of himself out there. Early second half he was locking onto Gal. even when he had all the time in the world.
Borges needs to go and the coaches need to take a look at some players.
November 3rd, 2013 at 6:01 PM ^
A low point. But it's not just this game, it's this season -- whatever it turns out to be, it will be the low point in Hoke's early tenure at Michigan.
This season is a turning point, yes, but toward the future. Toward teams with a critical mass of experienced players (a.k.a. depth), though not fully so until 2015.
On the coaches, have to wonder about how the loss of Jerry Montgomery affected the chemistry.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:39 PM ^
That makes me wonder also. Pretty embarassing we couldn't retain him in the first place with Brandon hiking up costs everywhere.
November 3rd, 2013 at 6:21 PM ^
To change Head Coaches with the recruiting classes we are putting together would be a huge setback and completely insane. I think Hoke needs time to let his classes come together, but CLEARLY these players need coaching up. Recruiting doesn't mean anything if the players are not coached well and molded into great teams. I think staff changes are needed to get the players coached up- Sparty and OSU take good players and coach them via their scheme and approach to positional disicpline into very good/ great teams with very good players.
Most of all, we have no swagger or killer instinct on this team, or anywhere in the organization. It's a family atmosphere that draws solid young men, but there is zero swagger. This team could use a heavy dose of toughness and fire. I hate seeing Taylor Lewan and Frank Clark making bone headed/ irresponsible personal fouls, but if that passion was molded into every player and was harnessed into a disciplined aggression, we'd be on to something; I just don't see the program adopting that mindset. It's a shame because I think the culture of the program could really use a disciplined, agressive mentality at this point; it starts at the top and the staff don't seem to be killers. At all. You don't need to be a person you are not or a huge jerk; you need to instill confidence in your players by constantly playing to their strengths and putting them in positions to succeed. You challenge them, you give them the skills they need and you have a comprehensive approach to getting it done. I think this is fixable... but do the staff have the mindset to do it? Time will tell... and we'll all continue to endure Michigan fandom untill we find out.
November 3rd, 2013 at 6:58 PM ^
The turning point for Brady Hoke occured as soon as he sent the punt team out in PSU territory in Happy Valley. I stand by that. That was Brady Hoke's fatal error, it showed his true colors.
Brady Hoke will not be the head coach at Michigan on January 1, 2015. There is a near 0% chance. I'd put my life on it.
November 3rd, 2013 at 7:51 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:35 PM ^
So will that be lethal injection, gas, poison, hanging, or what?
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:22 PM ^
November 4th, 2013 at 12:38 AM ^
What, precisely, are you referring to?
November 4th, 2013 at 9:52 AM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:50 PM ^
November 4th, 2013 at 12:50 AM ^
I'm not convinced that Hoke is truly going into a career-defining tailspin, but for this season Akron had the same canary-in-the-coal-mine function as UMass did in 2010, albeit for different sides of the ball. 2010 UMass was a harbinger of just how mind-bogglingly awful our defense was. 2013 Akron was a portent of how much of a clusterfuck our offense could be.
November 4th, 2013 at 7:45 AM ^
Agree with Don...good point.
Also as far as Hoke everyone pegs him as loyal guy who won't change. I challenge that. He shook things up at Ball State when things got sticky. I was working for BG at the time adn had a lot of friends on the medical staff at ball state...Brady made changes there. He was loyal to th eprogram....the program was #1.
I agree that Hoke is loyal but I believe his loyalty is to UM. I firmly believe he will put the greater good of UM ahead of everything. If changes need made he will make them I really do believe that.
November 4th, 2013 at 9:21 AM ^
Facts are Facts. They squeaked by Akron and U-Conn - and neither one of those teams are good, even in their own conference. Akron is 2-4 in the MAC, and U-Conn's coach was fired, they haven't won at all.
Michigan is a lower-half Big Ten team - and in a bad Big Ten.
Brady did better with Rich Rod's recruits than with his own.
So, not all of you, but some of you, in early February, just curtail all the stupid recruiting talk. To me that is the biggest farce in all of sports - it's like a made up Hallmark Holiday. Five stars, Four stars, none if it means shit. Or maybe that is now your championship, winning recruiting day. I don't think they have a trophy for that, but hey, the Bradys made Bobby a trophy for trying real hard, maybe you can make up one having the most 5 stars in the Big Ten class.
I just know what I saw on the field Saturday was disgusting. For two years I have watched Taylor Lewan and wondered how the hell he's projected as a Top 10 NFL pick.
App State on the schedule next year. Every good horror movie has a sequel. Is Dave going to scalp the ticket prices for that game too?
November 4th, 2013 at 9:48 AM ^
No this is not a turning point. It is not a turning point for Hoke, nor Mattison, nor Borges. At this point Hoke has looked at coach Funk's performance coaching the Oline and made up his mind about whether the key problem is youth & inexperience or coaching. We'll learn the result of that in the off season.
Hoke has far better insight into the issues surrounding the offensive line, but based on what we can see from the outside, I'd give Funk another year.
Suppose for a moment that on 11/30/2013, Michigan snaps OSU's winning streak at home and finishes 10-2. Would any of you folks claiming that doom was revealed against Akron, or PSU, or this prior Saturday change your mind?
I down voted this post simply because I think it's way way premature. Perhaps if this was December 1st, and Michigan finished 6-6 a post like this would be justified, but not at this time. We as a fan base need to get a grip.
November 4th, 2013 at 10:07 AM ^
If we finish 10-2, first of all I'll probably eat my hat. Second, we'll still have fallen short of what Brady says is the ultimate goal which is a Big Ten chapionship. Instead we'll be watching our two biggest rivals fight for it.
November 4th, 2013 at 11:41 AM ^
November 4th, 2013 at 10:41 AM ^
November 4th, 2013 at 2:34 PM ^
If you yank him now, you run the risk of hitting the ND rut. After Holtz left ND we wallowed in Davie and Willingham. Willingham destroyed that program (for further proof see Huskies, Washington). Weis pulled in guys on offense like no ones business but his failure was largely ignorning defense.
Hoke is the right guy for UM. Mattison is the right guy for UM. Borges, can't say. I will almost guarantee you that if Hoke is dumped this year or next you will be stuck in a coaching rut for a long long time. It has to get much worse than this before I would pull the plug.