Did We Just Watch the Turning Point Game of the Hoke Era?
In retrospect turning points are always easy to see. Looking back through history we can clearly mark the 1969 Ohio State game as the turning point in Bo's career and that victory as the marker that the Michigan program was changing for the better under his leadership. But I don't know that too many people back in 1969 could predict just how good things would go over the next 20 years with Bo.
Rich Rod also had a turning point game and the similarities to yesterday's debacle are striking IMO. Year three of his tenure and on October 30th, 2010, Michigan went to Penn State with two weeks to prepare and got beat soundly on national TV. It was the game that virtually everyone points to as "the beginning of the end" of the RR regime as it became painfully obvious that we had a defense incapable of stopping anyone (even a true Freshman QB like Matt McGloin). As everyone remembers, that season sputtered to a 7-6 finish despite our 5-0 start with the wheels coming completely off the wagon at the end.
Brady Hoke, in year three of his tenure, with two weeks to prepare, took his team to East Lansing yesterday and got drilled just like we did in Happy Valley in 2010 - albeit with a different side of the ball falling apart completely. This team also started 5-0 but can anyone look at the remaining schedule and not say that a 7-6 finish this for this team is possible if not probable? And would a steadily declining W-L record over three years be considered acceptable by the fan base or Dave Brandon?
To be clear I am NOT calling for Hoke to be fired here. But I wonder, again with the benefit of hindsight, what would've happened in 2010 if Rich had fired Tony Gibson immediately after the PSU game and told Brandon the next day he needed to get a new Defensive Coordinator in next year? Because that IS what I believe should happen with this year's team - Funk should be let go immediately and Hoke should tell Brandon today to start the search process for a new OC. But because I don't forsee either of those events occurring I wonder if we'll look back at yesterday's game sometime in the future as the "beginning of the end" of the Hoke era.
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:40 PM ^
You thought that I would need a crystal ball to see right through the haze
Well, here's a poke at you
You're gonna choke on it too
You're gonna lose that smile
Beacuse all the while
I can see Les Miles, Les Miles
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:11 PM ^
"The disappointment with Carr is what lead to a radical direction change to RR."
That cannot be the case. Carr was directly responsible for the hiring of Rich Rodriguez. You're claiming that Carr was diasppointed with himself and that's why he suggested the man?
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:38 AM ^
Comparing Lloyd and Hoke by saying they are both mediocre is nonsense. Lloyd brought Michigan its only national championship since 1948, along with a handful of Big Ten titles. Hoke has won nothing.
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:37 AM ^
Wouldn't call the Sugar Bowl two years ago and the victory over Ohio State nothing. Yeah there are caveats with both of those wins but they still mean something.
IMO the honeymoon period is over with Hoke and he has some decisions to make. If he decides to stay the course and make no changes at the end of this season then next year is going to be big because if we have another season like this that will be Year 4 and by then we should have a pretty good, though not complete, idea of what direction this program is heading. I believe a head coach should have 5 years but these guys are paid a ton of money for what they do and should be delivering the goods.
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:40 PM ^
November 4th, 2013 at 1:49 AM ^
You realize that by that standard, Bo (11-9-1) and Lloyd (6-7) are not successes, right?
Since Bo took over as coach we are exactly 21-21-1 against OSU.
In fact, post Fielding Yost we are 39-41-4.
So basically, you've created a standard that has never existed by which to judge all coaches against. For the last 75 years Michigan and Ohio State have been dead even.
One coach dominating the series is a pretty big exception to the rule.
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:47 AM ^
I feel like some of you dislike every single coach Michigan has ever had.
November 3rd, 2013 at 3:05 PM ^
I feel like we could go undefeated and win every game 50-0 and some of the people here would say, "Yeah, but Louisiana Tech Averaged 51.5!!"
November 3rd, 2013 at 3:57 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 4:31 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:42 AM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:53 AM ^
He shook up his staff at Ball State. By 2008 several of his original guys were gone.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:12 AM ^
So....it took him 5 yrs to finally realize things weren't working? That is a bad omen for this program then.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:44 AM ^
Come on, you know that's not what I meant. I did NOT say that he waited until the 2008 season to make changes.
Hoke gradually changed his staff as he went along there, so that by his last season, the staff was almost completely different from what it had been when he started. He also went from running a power offense to a passing spread, incidentally.
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:43 AM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:44 AM ^
If he held Brady Hoke to that same standard, something tells me the outcome would be the same. But, this is HIS guy, so he will give him the full five years.
To answer the question, I think the turning point could be yesterday - or one could argue it could've been in front of 107,000 at Michigan Stadium vs the Akron Zips.
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:46 AM ^
very good point
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:58 AM ^
If he held Brady Hoke to that same standard, something tells me the outcome would be the same. But, this is HIS guy, so he will give him the full five years.You think the outcome for a coach who is 25-9 would be the same as for one who is 15-22? In RichRod's case, his first two years were so catastrophic that the third year had to represent huge improvement for the fans not to turn on him. That's why the "progress" metric came up. Hoke has already won a BCS bowl in his short time here, and is recruiting like a madman. If you suspend your anger from yesterday and look at the big picture, I don't think any AD would put him on the hot seat right now.
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:26 AM ^
What delusional world you live in. Hoke is recruiting like an animal, it is clear he cant coach them up or put forth a strategy to give us a fighting chance to win. How bad was hoke out there yesterday, come on that timeout on 3rd and 25, why the hell you take the timeout , when you know that you will probably punt the ball away, you might need this timeout at the end of the game. I know it didn’t matter at the end but that is terrible coaching. Making things worse out of the timeout, we looked like a unorganized punch and of course ends in a sack. He cant even stop the double a blitz gap. Also what kind of strategy is that, when you leave your small running back blocking there best rusher. Bad very bad strategy, I just cant see this coaching staff winning many b10 titles.
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:29 AM ^
Funny, I point out that a guy with a 25-9 record including a BCS bowl victory is unlikely to be on the hot seat, and I'm "living in a delusional world." Right.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:28 AM ^
Ever hear of Gene Chizik? Not saying Hoke is going to have the same result, but winning a BCS bowl (with what some could say was really Rich Rodriguez's team) is hardly reason to say a guy can't be on the hot seat.
Edit: I don't think he will be on the hot seat or will deserve to be after this season, but if he doesn't fix his offense, the end could come quicker than most would have guessed after year 1.
November 3rd, 2013 at 3:07 PM ^
You just seriously compared Hoke to Gene Chizik. GENE. CHIZIK.
November 3rd, 2013 at 3:29 PM ^
Only for purposes of saying that simply winning a BCS bowl early doesn't keep you off the hot seat. I mean, all Gene Chizik did was go 30-10 with a national championship in his first three years while recruiting like gangbusters only to be fired after things fell apart in year 4.
I think Hoke is a better coach than Chizik and I strongly prefer him as a person. But, unless things quickly turn around, his Michigan resume is going to be worse than Chizik's was at Auburn after 3 years where he entered year 4 on the hot seat. To pretend that Hoke can't also be on the hot seat is silly. And that was my only point. I apologize if I offended your delicate sensibilities.
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:30 AM ^
If you expected this to win a Big Ten title or be anything other something between 9-3 and 7-5 you are delusional. You can't have a class with 1 o-lineman and 3 with a total of 6 and not expect there to be major o-line issues.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:02 AM ^
9-3, which seems like the most likely outcome for the season at this point, is what we expected at the beginning of the season.
The fact that Hoke is doing so well in recruiting is a reason to retain him (and poor recruiting must have been a factor in Brandon's firing of RR).
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:48 AM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 3:10 PM ^
You do realize that Hoke's 1st amazeballs recruiting class are all redshirt freshman or sophomores this year right? Do you really expect them to go undefeated? Do you seriously expect him to just tell his Juniors and Seniors to fuck off and focus 100% on the Freshman?
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:39 AM ^
Go ahead and take a look at the great recruits who have done nothing since Hoke took over: Justice Hayes, Chris Barnett (left school), Kellen Jones (left school), Chris Bryant, RJS, Terry Richardson, entire OL, entire DL.
Player development has been atrocious when you compare us to Ohio State. One could make the argument that our entire OL and DL has regressed week to week - particularly the young guys.
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:47 AM ^
We have two losses right now, not five. Let's let the season play out.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:17 AM ^
Regardless of wins and losses, our lines are not improving, and that's simply not acceptable. Heck, Hoke was a D-line coach, so what's the excuse?
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:47 AM ^
The guy above stated, flat-out, "We're about to lose five games for the second straight season." No one knows that.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:48 AM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:23 AM ^
First some of those gusy you mentioned were from the coaching change class and its asinine to blame that class on Hoke. Second judging the success of a recruit after a year or 2 is just plain dumb.
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:52 AM ^
Incase you haven't noticed, we are losing that battle incredibly. Green vs Elliot. Spence/Washington vs any of our DL, D. Wilson vs J. Hayes. I don't want to really think about it anymore.
I just think that it's unacceptable for Michigan Football to be average. I would think most people here would agree that's what we are. Most people would also agree that's not good enough with our stadium, profit, fan base, resources, tradition ext ext.
November 3rd, 2013 at 11:48 AM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 5:22 PM ^
I believe Hoke has a 6 year deal. I think he gets at least 5 before any real evaluation takes place. It will help him immensely if his team finishes strong this year.
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:19 AM ^
Hoke isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We'll see about Borges/Funk (maybe Jackson). If both survive the season and are our OC & OL coaches next year I think we know what we have in Hoke. Yet, something tells me that he is willing to do what is best for Michigan. If he isn't getting the attitude and execution out of the guys he leaves alone to achieve it, I think he canand will cut the cord.
Nice topic, OP
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:52 AM ^
I am starting to wonder if Hoke even knows enough about offensive football strategy to know that we have a problem. I realize that in press conferences he wont actually question Borges or Funk, but IMO he seems to not even recognize that our game plans are faulty, and puts everything on "execution." It's NOT all about execution Brady, sometimes a poor scheme puts guys in bad positions that lead to poor execution. PA passing on 2nd and 14 is begging for poor execution.
November 3rd, 2013 at 4:02 PM ^
November 3rd, 2013 at 5:27 PM ^
Execution or scheme? To me it doesn't matter, because both fall on the coaching staff. Right the ship and all will be forgiven, that is the nature of sports.
November 3rd, 2013 at 5:40 PM ^
I'm confused by your comment. Are you saying he's oblivious and doesn't get it? Or that he sees everything we see and much more (gets it)?
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:45 AM ^
aside and make changes, possibly even replacing Hoke.....the problem I see with this staff has been evidenced each and every week of this season.....lack of fundamentals, lack of player development....playing not to lose rather than playing to win.....poor play calling and Hoke is accountable for all of this and yet even with 2 weeks to prepare for MSU we came out were manhandled and stomped to say the least........time for a change? Thoughts?
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:51 AM ^
the lack of player development over the course of the season is what concerns me the most. You can blame the youth of the OL all you want, but I've seen nothing but digression this season.
November 3rd, 2013 at 8:54 AM ^
This^^^ By the time you hit November, nobody is a freshman anymore. Where's the improvement?
There is barely any. So where's the accountability?
November 3rd, 2013 at 9:33 AM ^
Anyone who thinks there is anyone chance of Hoke being replace within the next 2-3 years is insane. Talk about a massive overreaction to a couple of games.
November 3rd, 2013 at 10:48 AM ^
I tend to agree with you, but this isn't an overreaction to a couple games. This whole season has been more than mildly alarming except for a couple of games.