Did Michigan make the right choice?
As coach Beilein came into the same conference at the same time as Tubby Smith I think it is only fair they should stand as a measuring stick to the other.
Tubby took over a team that had gone 8-22 the previous year returning no highly rated recruits. Minnesota had been to the tournament twice in the decade preceding--in 1999 and 2005. Minnesota has been recovering from one of the worst academic fraud scandals in ncaa history(Leading to the purging of Clem Haskins from coaching in 1999). Minnesota's facilities are probably the worst in the big ten. So far as I know, there are no plans for a practice facility in sight. Most would probably consider Ann Arbor to be the better college town, the University of Michigan to be a better academic institution, and Michigan to be generally a better brand name.
Beilein took over a team that had gone 22-13 the previous year and returned one recruit of note-Deshawn--maybe one and a half if you want to count Udoh. Michigan had been to the tournament once in the decade preceding--1997. Michigan has an aging stadium, plans to break ground on a practice facility in the next year, and is still said to be reeling from the Ed Martin scandal which occured well over a decade ago as well.
On to the comparison: Tubby is 58-35 at Minnesota. Beilein is 44-49 at Michigan. Tubby has brought in 4 highly rated recruits: Joseph, Sampson, R. Williams, and crackhead White. Beilein has brought in one and a half: Morris and (.5 assist from Amaker)Manny. Tubby has brought Minnesota to the tourney once with no tournament wins. Beilein has brought Michigan to the tournament once with one tournament win.
Minnesota is hardly a recruiting hotbed--however those recruits who do wish to stay close to home have few other options, whereas relatively plentiful quality recruits in the state of Michigan(and northern Ohio/Indiana) have a lot of choices nearby.
Tubby obviously has won many more games--but at the same time some would say that Clemson win is more important than regular season wins and losses. However, it does seem as if Tubby is pulling in better recruits while Minnesota has considerably less to offer. What do you all think?
February 22nd, 2010 at 6:38 PM ^
...time will tell as to the answer to this question. In the end its always results. Last year was great which makes this year harder to accept. Time will tell. Considering this year's results and the loss of Sims at the end of the year, its not unreasonable to be somewhat scared for next season. We're going to need a drastic step up from some people.
At the very least, I am satisfied that everything is being done ethically and its unlikely we have any more scandals in the works.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:06 PM ^
Very true and with Sims gone all I ask is that his replacement, be it mclimans or Morgan, is to be somewhat competent. With Metrics coming in hopefully he play a significant role at the 4 and that way we can move novak to the 2 or 3, a position that better suits his skill set let alone his height. If manny comes back and having Darius at point there is at least something to look forward to in the back court.
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:47 PM ^
Crackhead, heh?
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:52 PM ^
It's not like we got to the tourney for the first time in 10 years?
I mean sure this season has been a disappointment but damn!
Martin definitely made the right choice!
February 22nd, 2010 at 6:39 PM ^
I am not a basketball expert and do not pretend to be:
While the team clearly has room for improvement in many areas, and granted our shot selection is not always the best, at some point we need guys to knock down open shots. Making only 190 of the 626 3-point attempts (30.4%) this year certainly is not helping anything.
http://www.mgoblue.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/mich/sports/m-baskbl/a…
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:28 AM ^
The bball program is moving in the right direction because of Beilein's qualities as a coach. I meant that his system is a good one, but we are not taking advantage of the opportunities that are available because we have shot such a low percentage. The team just seems to need leadership and confidence because Beilein is certainly the right choice and his system is proven to work if we shoot a decent percentage.
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:56 PM ^
Oh hey, haven't seen one of these threads in a while.
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:36 PM ^
Yeah, because reading comments like this constantly isn't annoying or anything either. *tongue in cheek emoticon*
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:56 PM ^
Beilien = Good
Rodriguez = Good
Berenson = Good
Enough said.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:13 PM ^
about the last one?
His first 3 seasons here he was a combined 39-77-2 AT MICHIGAN!!!!!!! Which is >>>>>>>>>> State
But Comley went 66-47-8 in his first 3 seasons.
I CAN'T BELIEVE BILL MARTIN DIDN'T HIRE COMLEY!!!!!!11!!!!!!11!!!!!!11111!!!! OMG, Bill, OMG.
I hope Red succeeds here, I really do. I hope the guy proves me wrong. But just looking at the numbers...
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:53 PM ^
make me wish my head would explode.
Threads negging recruits and carrying on about star rankings have the same effect as well. Can we get brian to draft a "so youre new around here?" page, like one of those training videos they make you watch a shit temp job. Volunteers?
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:22 PM ^
The FAQ already exists.
You can try and make something idiot proof, but the world will make a better idiot.
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:57 PM ^
Minnesota's facilities are probably the worst in the big ten.
Have you ever been to the Barn? It's so much better than Crisler, I don't even think I could take any of the rest of your comparison seriously.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:06 PM ^
I dunno, the Barn is pretty crappy. Feels really small, old and high school-ish. Granted Williams has a great atmosphere when the place is rocking, but it's not all that nice of a facility.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:22 PM ^
I don't know anything about their practice facilities, but the Barn offers one of the best homecourt advantages in the country.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:40 PM ^
The only thing Crisler has going for it is the unobstructed seats. The Barn beats it in every other category.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:43 PM ^
Never underestimate the value of an elevated court. The feel is entirely different and when you pair that with a decent home crowd, you have yourself a pretty good home court advantage. However, the Barn isn't on the same level as Kohl Center, the Phog, Breslin, Cameron, or any elite arena when it comes to home court. It's still good though.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:04 PM ^
The Barn is pretty crappy. I think Crisler is one of the worst college arena's in the country. Crappy SEC basketball schools have better arenas.
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:59 PM ^
Not hating on Bielien at all.....this is just my point of view.
Bielien hasn't won enough to merit the extension he was given earlier this year. I am happy that we made it to the tourney and won a game, but I feel that the extension was a case of Bill Martin's happy "trigger finger." This year has been a disaster for our team, and well, we all remember year 1. Do I think he'll pull it together? Yes, I think in the end, he'll have us back to the upper half of the Big Ten consistently.
Having said that, I wish we would've hired Tubby. Tubby Smith has the street cred and a National Championship to prove it. He has accolades that, for all intents and purposes, could stack up against most coaches in our league and beyond.
Tubby's resume could've done wonders in recruiting, especially locally. The State of Michigan has one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in Basketball, and Tubby Smith could've done well in his position. Additionally, he could've taken the Michigan brand, his resume and sold the school to national recruits as well. Bielien's reputation as a system coach and "white boy" coach hurt us in recruiting. Not very much, but I just feel that Tubby could've done a much better job.
Like I said, I feel very confident that JB will get us back to respectability, however I feel Tubby could've done better. I feel that Tubby could've gotten us back on the map for real (as in real hype) and eaten into Izzo's East Lansing machine.
Just my two cents. Like I said, I hope that Bielien proves me wrong.......I just feel that Bielien would've been a better fit for Minnesota and that Tubby would've been a better fit for Michigan.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:09 PM ^
Come on.
Tubby was recruiting mediocrely at KENTUCKY.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:00 PM ^
Not to mention his National Championship was with Pitino's players, only two years after they won in 1996 and the year after they were favored to repeat...
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:59 PM ^
JB would still be coaching at West Virginia today if the choice were theres. Ask Kentucky fan about Tubby.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:09 PM ^
Kentucky's standards might just be a little bit higher than WVU's. Not to say that Beilein couldn't hold down a job at Kentucky (although considering their hire of Calipari, maybe they would find him to be too ethical), but if you coach Kentucky basketball, you are required to win consistently.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:20 PM ^
Sure, their standards are higher. That's because they have way, way more institutional advantages.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:34 PM ^
Way less institutional control.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:42 PM ^
Don't be so sure about that. Huggy Bear has taken that program to another level.
February 23rd, 2010 at 7:52 AM ^
Agree; WVU is doing just fine with their new coach.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:04 PM ^
If you do the compare the records over the last two season's Tubby has a 36-22 to 34-27 edge. So basically they have a very similar record even though Tubby has some much higher rated talent. I think it is clear that JB gets much more out of his players than Tubby does. As he gets more of the type of players he needs in his system (think Smotrycz & Brundidge), I think Michigan will continue to improve while Tubby keeps the status quo at Minnesota. I am very happy we have JB as coach.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:14 PM ^
Beilein has owned Smith in head-to-head competition.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:05 PM ^
Kinda like Monday AM QB. Go Blue
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:07 PM ^
Tubby is not a very good coach. He has wasted a great deal of talent since becoming Minnesota HC.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:29 PM ^
Well, this also isn't true.
He starts 4 3-star players and 1 four-star. Michigan starts 2 four-star players, and he inherited basically 0 talent.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:13 PM ^
TO HEAR MYSELF TALK!
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:15 PM ^
Beilein took them to the tournament last year, and this year somehow everyone forgot how to shoot. I don't think its necessarily Beilein's fault for that, just really bad luck on his part.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:46 PM ^
Beilein took over a team that had gone 22-13 the previous year.
How I wish this had been true. I would have loved to have seen what Beilein could have done with that group. Actually, four of the five starters from that team graduated after the season, and the fifth (Jerret Smith) got in trouble off the court and was kicked off the team.
Tubby had more to work with that first year, and posted a better record. Since then their records are about even.
And remember this:
1 - Epke Udoh transferred, even though he was starting and seeing major minutes.
2 - Robin Benzing was lost to the NCAA Clearinghouse.
3 - Ben Cronin injured his hip and, even after a redshirt year, wasn't physically able to play.
4 - Jordan Morgan tore his ACL in the offseason.
That's four players - three of them Beilein recruits - who, under normal circumstances, would be playing for us this season. All are post players. Imagine adding them to our current roster.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:22 PM ^
Exactly. The whole woe is me thing is kind of lame but seriously, Udoh made some midseason All-American teams and Benzig is playing well in a pro league (per UMHoops and an article on the FP a few days ago.) Honestly, I don't know if Sims would start if those two were on the team. We would be so much better.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:26 PM ^
are hating on this thread.
It's a fair question, and I certainly don't interpret it to be anti-Beilein.
I'd rather see a post like this than, for example, one debating about whether you'd be OK with making a football victory that's in the books into a loss in order to convert a loss in the books to a win.
To answer the question, I am completely confident in Beilein. It's difficult to say what would have happened if Michigan went after Tubby. I do believe that he's getting paid significantly more than Beilein. As far as recruiting goes, we've been to the tourney one time since 1997, our facilities are ancient, and basketball lives in the shadows of football. I'm not convinced that any coach would have that much more success than Beilein has had when it comes to getting the top kids to consider Michigan.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:47 PM ^
People are hating on this thread because it gets rehashed so. many. times.
It's approaching the level of MAIZE JERSEYS and FIRE/KEEP RICHROD topics. There's not much more that really can be said.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:24 PM ^
I've been visiting this blog consistently for a while now and don't recall anyone comparing Beilein to the Tubby hire. Perhaps it was discussed extensively after his first year at Michigan?
Regardless, as I stated, I am of the opinion that this is a much better discussion topic than some of the stuff that we've been seeing lately. It's not like the OP was chanting "OMG Fire Beilein!" In fact, he didn't state his opinion one way or the other. He presented some facts regarding both coaches and the programs they took over and offered it up for discussion.
Seems pretty harmless to me.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:12 PM ^
Comparing the Beilein-Tubby hires is a new way of looking at it, yes. Do you think that this topic would have come up if everything was hunky dory and we were the 3 seed in the Big Ten?
Let's put it this way. Would you like to discuss the various merits on why Michigan should have gotten Rick Neuheisel, David Cutcliffe, Houston Nutt, Mike Sherman, or Paul Johnson over Rich Rodriguez?
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:51 PM ^
The OP didn't say that is was his opinion that Michigan should have tried to hire Tubby instead of Beilein. You are choosing to make that inference.
Secondly, I'm not exactly interested in buying the comparison you are trying to sell. RR was unarguably one of the hottest coaches in the country at the time of his hire. The 5 coaches you list were obviously available in 2008 and, I'm willing to guess, every one of them would have seriously considered Michigan if they came calling. However, they were not on the same level as RR and every one of them would have been seen as a disappointing hire.
Tubby, on the other hand, is a well respected and decorated coach. The guy has 15 NCAA tourneys in the last 16 years at 4 different programs. I'm 100% in Beilein's corner but that doesn't mean that it isn't an interesting conversation.
I will say this. You are probably right in saying that this discussion likely doesn't come up if we were winning. But we aren't, and minds wander during dire times. The discussion might not be productive, but it's certainly harmless.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:03 PM ^
because this board has gone full kool-aid. Any dissent or break from the company line is negged on sight.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:52 PM ^
We have a winner.......
In the clones' defense, the "FIRE ________" crowd has ruined it for anyone who wants to have a reasonable discussion. But come on people, read the flippen content of the post before punching your ticket on the down vote express
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:39 PM ^
About the "what about the children, and their feelings" crowd. Damn hippies.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:37 PM ^
Word.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:30 PM ^
And I'm really happy he's our coach, and I'm really confident that he'll complete the process of turning the program around ...
but this is a fair question. I'm not saying I favor Tubby over JB - I don't - but at the least it's a fair question to ask, IMHE.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:35 PM ^
I wil admit I have had my doubts about him this year, but he is a good coach and I wil give him the time to get his players in here.