A positive sign for the future. The one thing it has done, was set a new precedent of coaching to the skillset of the players, mostly, the offense. I think it proves we can do it, and I'm expecting 9-3 next year (or better, obviously)
Did this game change your expectations for 2014?
In general, I agree with you about the potential. This team will have plenty of talent for 2014. I just fear that the coaches only released the hounds to try to beat ohio, and it'll soon be back to -3 yards and a cloud of dust. Here's to hoping that doesn't happen.
just to keep their jobs? I don't think it's quite like that but I can see the coaches rationalizing that the team was young and inexperience and now they're not so we should be good to go. We should have more talent on the team to get these things done, or something anyways; I will look for more progress next year but that's how I was feeling about this year.
If Borges goes, I'm excited about the weapons we have to compete. If he sticks around, my expectations are for mediocrity.
Regardless of our performance against Ohio, Borges has proven himself to be incapable of putting together a coherent game plan week-in and week-out.
Unfortunately I think EVERYTHING hinged on us having a running game. We didn't. We became one dimensional. We therefor needed a multiple dimensional passing attack. Gardener wasn't ready for that. He's more of a first read, panic, scramble kind if guy. Hopefully next year our run game improves. Gardener has more command if the offense. More time in the pocket.
The one thing I'm hanging my hat on next year...and maybe I shouldn't....after watching Ohio gut us up the middle the last two years...is our D. I think our dline should be just as good if not better. Our linebackers better. Our back end better. More depth all around. Offense and defense.
Primarily due to the fact that many times he had no time to make his progressions as the oline gave way so early.
Devin is a good quarterback given time to make reads and not feel rushed.
Nope. I saw this same game in September vs Notre Dame. Everyone got their hopes up and then 2 months of reality set in. Fool me once...
I really think next year starts are arrival back on the big stage. From next year on I believe the talent level is back to early Carr levels. We haven't been able to have a true spring game because of the lack of depth on the O line.
Nope. 7-5 next year. Rinse, repeat.
With development and proper coaching, this is a 10 win team next year.
With the trend being that we are not coaching properly nor developing players, I expect the same thing next year.
Our road schedule is hellacious next year. Hoke better figure that out before I'd go betting on a 10 win season. It's possible but he's yet to prove himself on the road.
Why is the schedule so much harder I guess I don't see it.
At ND, At MSU, At OSU, and Hoke teams have been horrible on the road against teams with a pulse. Based on this 1st 3 yrs that is 3 losses already.
No one has confidence in Borges and wouldn't be surprised if a game or two was given away.
Something still has to change. Whether it is Brady being more hands on with the offense, Borges being let go, bringing in a Quarterback coach to help development, whatever. This team has the potential to be very very good, but something has to change offensively to generate some sort of consistency.
My opinion is contingent on whether or not we fire Borges. With him, 8-4, without him, 9-3 or better
They'll win one more game with a TBD OC. Got it.
Al calls all our games like yesterdays then were looking good. I really don't think he's going to go anywhere. Im not sure if he ever was.
If you read Brandon's statement I think it was obvious that Borges' job is anything but safe. I don't know if this changes his future with Michigan but I have been ambivalent to him since The Game. It would seem that there is something there in his gameplanning that may work if they can stabilize this offensive line (which, let's face it, has come a long way since the Nebraska game). OTOH, I am equally frustrated that he couldn't put a gameplan like this together when they played PSU, Nebraska, Iowa, MSU, Akron, UConn, etc. I am thinking I will still have a shred of optimism if they don't fire him, but much more if they do.
Borges' first name is Alan
...or put him up for adoption.
Not that the OL didn't play well yesterday, but I think the playcalling (quick passing and lots of misdirection) masked their weaknesses (FINALLY!). It's hard for me to think the OL really found much cohesion when they were starting multiple combinations of guys all season long. Those quick passes (so DG doesn't have to try to read progressions), and getting the ball to playmakers like Gallon, allowed the RB's to find some room to run. Imagine, passing to set up the run.
Said it best if this team shows up they can play with anyone ...I can only hope they show up every game next year
funny how for well coached teams, the players seem to always "show up." Does Alabama ever not show up? Do OSU's offense or MSU's defense ever not show up? This has been a problem not just with the current starting lineup, but over the past 3 years. The offense is practically 100% different from the offense that didn't show up against MSU in 2011 and the first 3 quarters of the Iowa game that year. And at least 50% different from the offense that couldn't score a single TD against ND, MSU, Nebraska, or in the 2nd half against OSU in 2012.
Funny how OSU is probably going to replace their DC next year, despite the fact that they're undefeated and possibly playing for an MNC. Just goes to show the attitude of the two programs right now. It's not like firing Borges would be some crazy hasty decision based on scant evidence. We have been complaining about the play-calling and game-planning for three years now.
It's fun to just parrot what the OC said. Everything was the same, except execution. Execution, execution, execution.
On earlier posts the interior line was talked about. I really think next year depends on two guys. Kugler and Pipkins. Both borderline 5 stars. If Pipkins can come back and command double teams, the D can do different things. I would be curious what Magnus or others think of that possibility. It seems like he has been underperforming for a year and a half.
When you go back and re-read the Hello post on Kugler you can't help but be excited. If he can come in as a redshirt freshman and solidify the center position, Glasgow, Kalis, Bosch and maybe Dawson compete for OG. Tackle is Magnuson and Braden, with Kalis maybe at RT.
I know QB is ultimately the most important position, but we know what we have with DG.
So my long answer, is yes I see hope. But not competeting against MSU, OSU will be a very bad omen for the coaches. M really needs to win one of those games on the road and go 9 - 3 at a minimum
The Game did not change my expectations for next season. And its aftermath, much as I appreciated the effort, underscores how far the program has fallen. "Michigan lost the game but won the day." Wow. Never figured The Big House would become the home of moral victories.
They had national title talent, all of their assistant coaches, and a 6-5 record when they walked into the Big House. The only thing missing on the field from a preseason top 5 team, was Pryor. And OSU fans were excited that the game came down to the last minute.
A disappointing season will turn ANY fan base into believing in moral victories.
Optimistic: only if the coaches decide to unleash the offensive weapons on a regular basis like they did today. It's so frustrating how hundreds of us here have griped all season about calling plays that utilize the players' strengths and hide their weaknesses, and yet the highly paid coaches couldn't seem to see what we saw. What a waste of talent.
Pessimistic: early in the season, if we witness close games and general ineptitude against teams we should beat by 20-30 points, I'll have a hard time believing the season will unfold much differently than this one did.
Next year we need to be competing for the Big Ten title - no excuses. It's time for these coached (minus Al) and the players to show up. Time to win!
According to your profile, you weren't even here last year. Looks like you joined when we were collectively at an all time low. Why don't you leave and take the negativity with you.
He's being realistic, that's what was said before this season began. Who cares when he joined? Stop being an asshole because someone doesn't respect mediocrity.
Did you join just to come here and be a dick and a downer about everything? Lighten up dude.
I am surprised that this hasn't been mentioned yet but the Ohio State players have stated that they what the two point play was going to be. The coaches saw the formation and called a timeout to let the players know what was coming if Michigan took the field again in the same formation and they did. This game was a perfect microcosm to describe the season with Borges calling plays. I have zero faith in Al over the course of a season.
Oh it's been mentioned. I started a huge thread on Scout about this. Drives me crazy. The game was there to be taken.
And what makes it even worse is that the play before that, we saw what many of us had been screaming for all season: Funchess getting a quick throw near the corner in single coverage. That play was essentially like throwing an alley-oop to Shaq back in the day - you know it's coming but can't do anything about it. Hell, Funchess even "posted up" against that helpless DB. I would have liked to see that same play again, or else something like it with Jake Butt. Those kids are 6-5 and 6-6, and both are very good receivers....use them in goal line situations!
Listen, prior to his TD, how many passes had Funchess dropped the past few weeks?
If we had thrown the jump ball to Funchess on the conversion and he had dropped it or Gardner had overthrown it (which is common on this kind of pass), people would be complaining even more than they are now.
To put it in perspective, think about the first UTL game. With 8 seconds left, Hoke / Borges has Denard throw the fade to Roundtree. Now imagine that pass gets picked off or Denard got sacked and fumbled, and we lose the game. People would have killed the coaching staff for that call. Instead, it stands out as one of the greatest moments in Hoke's tenure so far. That's called hindsight people.
Listen, maybe Funchess dropped a few in that Iowa game, but he didn't have problems like that in this game from what I recall. In fact, he's been pretty damned reliable overall, Iowa notwithstanding.
But even if not Funchess, notice I threw Butt in there as well. I just like to see them find a mismatch and exploit it. That didn't happen, which is my only complaint about that last call.
Also, what makes you think that missing on a pass to Funchess would've resulted in more complaints here? I don't see how you can conclude that. If anything, we'd probably be equally bummed. But at least it would have been a different play from a different formation that had been shown just prior to the time out.
Funchess did have at least one drop in the Ohio State game that I can remember. The announcers even brought up the Iowa game because of that drop. There was also a play where Funchess didnt turn to look for the ball early enough after Gardner was pressured. I'm not placing blame on Funchess, but he is not who I would turn to for that conversion. Gallon would be my first choice, followed by Gardner running, and then probably Dileo.
But the reason I think that a jump ball type pass would have resulted in more criticism is because it is a low percentage play. Ask Oregon what they think about fade routes and jump balls on 4th down. I live in Eugene, and they have been going nuts out here about a few 4th down conversion attempts that failed because the QB threw a fade route out of the endzone, not even giving his team a chance.
I guess my point is that if we had throw the jump ball and it worked, everyone would be thrilled and think its a great call. Just like the call we made would have been great if it had been converted. But if we had thrown the jump ball to Funchess and he dropped it, people would be saying we should have known better than to go to Funchess. And if Gardner had over / under thrown it we would either be screaming at Gardner or saying that Borges put him in a position to fail with a low % playcall. It's just the nature of hindsight after a heartbreaking loss on the last play.
I guess I have an optimistic slant to my memory, because outside of his Iowa futility, I tend to think of Funchess as quite reliable. I recall some incredible one-handed catches and little DB's being helpless to stop him. Butt also had a one-hander last week. Can't disagree with Gallon and his reliability, and I don't think you force a pass just because the receiver is tall, but I've just always liked tall dude mismatches in goal line situations. Been that way since I first saw big ol' Dave Jokisch (sp?) get it done back in the 80's.
My wife even commented about Funchess' drops. Multiple at Iowa and the game before. He had at least two in the game. Hindsight is 20/20.
I am on the fence about Gorgeous Al Borgess. If they shitcan him I totally understand. If they don't...and I think they won't.....I could live with that as well. Our oline would've made bill walsch look bad this year.
and was confirmed by the OSU players in the post game press conferences... Even when he seems to be on his game Borges is perfecty capable of having a complete brain fart. And some people want to keep the guy.
I'm not sure. That game may have saved Borges' job, and I don't know how I feel about that yet.
Why the fuck didn't we play to WIN all season long, that is my question? Last second playbook open up to try to save your job, borges?
Yesterday but unless he goes, I think our ceiling is 8-4.
I'm actually more optimistic today than I was at the end of the 2012 season. The O-line will have more experience and will be motivated to work their butts off in S&C. Green/Smith look like a solid one-two punch and should be better in pass protection. My fears of the OSU/MSU away games will be mollified by their loss of seniors this year.
The only game I'm concerned about is the first game, not sure what will hAPPen.
I still really think Borges has to go (like most people). Something that concerns me is that, even when the team had success on offense this year, it just seemed like nothing came easy. Most plays just felt like a chinese fire drill. Maybe I'm just too pessimistic of the offense, but it just seems like there was usually something that went wrong. I attribute that to the youth, and offensive line issues, so that is my reason for optimism for the future. I think they'll, at the very least, be more consistently competent (without Borges). The future is still bright my friends.
A little. It reminded me that there is a good team in there somewhere that should get better with maturity. I don't know what the hell happened this year, but yesterday showed that it's variable and correctable. Why it took the staff 11 games to play to their team's strengths on offense I will never know, but I hope that lesson is remembered next year, whoever the OC may be.
Our performance yesterday, to me, validated the frustration that a lot of people here have felt this season regarding the OL. Yes, they're very young, but that doesn't explain the historical ineptitude of our offense this year. As yesterday proved, you can cover up a weak OL with a little creativity and faith in your talented playmakers.
Please let this be an enduring lesson. Know thy team, and give your players the best chance to succeed.
It showed me two things
- When the offensive line is good, the offense can be great
- When Al decides to stop manballing it into a stacked line and pass it a bit more, the offense can be great
I have confidence that #1 will sort itself out. I still have no confidence in Al's ability to not mire the offense down with his own playcalling.
My expectations are up a tick, but I think Borges' tenure will be an exercise in the 1999 offense. Great players running the ball over and over again for 3 ypc as Al tries to hide his raging boner
The fact that many of you now want to keep Borges blows my mind. The guy has singehandedly cost M 4 games this year, two last year and two the year before!!! What are you thinking?
It's amazing that one game has made people forget being negative in rushing yards for however many games in a row.
A careful analysis of the past 3 seasons says he should be toast. But instead, people are content on claiming one outlier performance in a game that we lost as evidence that he shouldn't be sent packing.
As someone earlier in this thread mentioned, Ohio State's defensive coordinators are on the hot seat and they haven't lost a game in two years. Borges had two great games and nine terrible ones (Indiana was good but their defense is horrendous) and suddenly we're okay with him staying. Shows the difference in expectations, we're now okay with mediocrity because of how bad the offense was this season. Borges should've been out of a job a month ago.
I never thought Hoke was in real danger or believed that he should be on the "hot seat," but it was concerning that the team seemed to be tailing away a la the Rodriguez era. It would be worrisome if in his third year you saw a "lost the team" kind of ending. I feel like this game made clear that the players were still on board with Hoke and each other, and that's definitely a good omen going into bowl practices and the spring.
It was also the best game in the careers of Kalis/Magnuson/Glasgow as well as D. Smith and Jake Butt. That's great news given the loss of Gallon.
The flip side of next year's tough road schedule is that all seven home games are should-wins, and there's @Northwestern (losing Colter and Mark) and a road game against Rutgers that seems likely to be a Ryan Field East situation. So eight or nine wins seem like a good baseline. We'll have seven linemen who've seen the field on at least their third year in the program, plus Bosch and Kugler.
The big question of course is whether this is a sign that the players are capable of executing the kinds of plays that will give Borges' offense coherence. The use of Gallon, Hayes, Butt, and Touissaint on screens and misdirections — and Dileo on short routes — would seem to be just what the doctor ordered as far as keeping opponents off-balance to open up the power runs and long bombs that we know Al loves. Can I even dream that Norfleet will get some of those Dileo/Gallon/Toussaint touches next year? Of course, we've been burned before.
I still think offensive coaching changes need to be made. An elite OC and O line coach could make next year interesting. Without the changes I just predict more excuses about youth, schedule, yada yada. Youth shouldn't be an excuse and there are no "brutal" schedules when you play in the B10.
Just my 2 cents that means nothing.
My takeaway from this game in particular is that a Brady Hoke-coached team is going to give OSU all it can handle. If there was ever a year for us to get crushed, it was this one. Just as Dantonio is obsessed with Michigan and will have his team ready for us, Hoke is the same for OSU. That's good, because we need that kind of focus to beat a guy like Meyer. We need to make sure we don't become so focused on OSU that we don't bring our A game against other November opponents, though.
I think we might eventually look at this season as similar to 2005 - a year in which every game seemed to be close and we let a bunch get away from us at the end. That year, besides the five losses, we won two games in overtime (MSU, Iowa), and one on the last play of the game in regulation (PSU), so like this year, it could have been worse or better. I think we will see a pretty significant improvement next year, although the schedule will make it tough to dramatically improve in the win column. I see us ending up around 9-3 with the losses coming in tough road games. (We need to get over this home/road disparity thing - that's the most alarming trend under Hoke thus far.)
Couldn't agree more. They were a great team last year and it was a hard fought game with us starting a QB for his 3rd or 4th game.
I don't understand where all the doubters are coming from. The future is bright.
I'm holding tight with 8-4 next year. Will be shocked if they boot Borges this year. My only gripe is I wish the athletic department (or the responsible authority) would spring for a full-time QB coach. I think it would do wonders for the development of Gardner and the other young QB's.
There is an NCAA rule that limits how many coaches can be on staff. If Michigan hires a QB coach then someone else has to be let go.
is about the brutal schedule. I think 9-3 is realistic, with losses at ND, at MSU, and at OSU.
If Hoke loses to MSU and OSU next season he should be let go.
Ohio's defensive game plan was atrocious.
It was shocking that Fickell didn't follow the "formula" for crushing our offense - release the hounds!
We really struggled whenever an opponent (even Nebraska!) loaded up the box and dared us to beat it.
I'm hopeful our line will be improved next year, but we need a better scheme to beat press coverage/loading the box, and Devin needs to make better, quicker decisions (which should happen with experience).
From a talent standpoint, I feel we're adding depth and talent every year. That didn't translate into wins this year, but I'm cautiously optimistic next year will be better.
You are supposed to play well against your main rival at home. And I'm glad hoke and co how to do that at least. But there was just too much ineptitude before that game to change any expectations.
My prediction still stands: after 5 years of Hoke, no B10 championships and only 1 win against Ohio. If we get a new OC, then this could change, but I doubt it.
There were certainly a lot of positives about yesterday, but the fact that people are "happy" about that game tomorrow have really lowered their expectations on this program.
The expectations never change. Win the Big Ten Championship.
I don't think this one game changes any opinions on Borges, especially the ones that count: Hoke an Brandon. If they were going to fire him before The Game, they are still likely to fire him. He called a nice game, for the most part, but that is about all that changed; he called nice games in 2011 and 2012 as well; just not enough of them.
What does have me excited for next year is how Gardner is finishing the year. He seems to becoming a leader on this team, and one who has shown he is able to carry this team on his back. I don't think we realized how inexperienced he was this year, and how much he needed to grow. I'm excited to see what he can do next year, especially if we have an offensive coordinator who is able and willing to maximize his talents. Talent-wise, I think he is better than Miller; he just needs a gameplan that takes advantage of it.
Yesterday I was at The Game cheering my ass off in Section 14. Their O-Line took over and started really moving our D-Line in the second half. We didn't have enough depth or experience to hold the point of attack. When one of their O-lineman got to our LB, Hyde had 5 yards or more automatically. Hyde is a beast and when he had.clean feet to start he was hard to stop. Ohio is going to have problems in the future because they won't have that power back. All their other backs are speed /spread guys that don't want contact.
Yesterday was the result of the past 7 years really. Our program has been in coaching and player turmoil and we basically lost years during the Rich Rod era. They suffered through one year of Fickell but landed their guy in Meyer as soon as they could. He didn't have to suffer through rebuilding a roster and walked in to having a QB ready for his system. They have depth and experience on their O-Line and we do not. Our O-Line will get better with depth and experience. Deveon Smith and Derrick Green are going to be unbelievably good next year and beyond.
I liked the decision to go for 2 but I wished that we would have used our timeout after they used theirs to make sure we had the play call right and everyone was on the same page.
We lost and I understand that there are no moral victories but I will say this. Hoke has went toe-to-toe with Meyer the past 2 years with an inexperienced and less talented team both time and lost by a combined 7 points. I am not nearly as worried about the future with him but they need to review the entire year on both sides of the ball. Mattison should stay because the D has been more consistent all year and will be good next year. On offense, Funk should go, Borges should unless he signs a contract promising to unleash the offense each game, Jackson might have to retire too.
Overall very proud of the team yesterday ad Go Blue!
Meyer will likely have more talent and experience most years he plays us.
Hoke just doesn't have it to go toe to toe (and win) against the likes of Meyer.
He are about to hit a really bad stretch for us if OSU goes to the MNC (and wins). Expecting recruiting to take a dive and I would expect another 7 years or loses against OSU. The main question is will Brandon be able to see this and get ahead of it before it gets ahead of us?
Hoke just doesn't have it to go toe to toe (and win) against the likes of Meyer.
This is a curious conclusion given that we were literally a single play away from beating them as a two-touchdown underdog.
I agree that OSU winning a national title (which I highly doubt happens unless FSU's Winston is suspended) wouldn't be good for us, but the idea that it would cause our recruiting to "take a dive" is sheer overreaction. Ohio isn't the only place in the country we recruit and there are too many players from there for them to monopolize, anyway.
And how will they have more experience most years? Their players have four years of eligibility just like everyone else's. The issue right now is that our roster is disproportionately underclass-heavy. It's not going to be like that in future years.
But we lost (at home no less). In the end, victories (not of the moral variety) matter.
It's my baseline expectation that we will give it our best effort against our main rival at home. If not then the coach doesn't "get it". But Meyer and crew are just on a whole level above our staff. Plain and simple. Sure, we may grab a game here and there against OSU over the next 10 years. We can call the rest moral victories and pat ourselves on the back.
Meyer will out recruit us most years which will allow them to balance their starting roster with more experience. But we'll see what happens here. And if he closes off the state of Ohio, we can certainly goes elsewhere, but that will take some time to develop the relationships.
I know I sound pessimistic, but I think I'm being a realist.
There is reason why OSU can get major violations and barely skip a beat. There are reasons why we are a clean program (despite stretchgate) and can barely look average in a bad conference. They "get it". We don't.
Honestly, 90% of our problems this season were ultimately caused by the weak interior O-line. If we had a halfway decent interior line, Borges' job status would not be an issue. If we can get that fixed, then I see 9-4 or 10-3 with wins over OSU and MSU as a realistic possibility, Borges or no Borges.
Yes but if we go 9-4 or 10-3 next year it sets up for a do-or-die year in 2015. The program will be completely Hoke's, the 2012, 2013, 2014, and hopefully the 2015 classes will be on campus. We need to be a national power that year of we only go 9-4 or 10-3 next year since that will not likely get us into the BTCG. It is getting close to put up or shut up time. Also from here on out please no more excuses. This is Hoke and co's team now. The prior guy is out and has been for awhile.
MSU has eaten Borges's lunch the past 3 years. OSU will probably go out and get a top of the line defensive coordinator.
Weak interior O-line or no, Borges has not shown himself capable of beating competent DCs in either play-calling or game-planning. Even in 2011, when we had the best center in the country and Two redshirt junior guards, we still had games in which the offense just totally wet the bed. Why should we believe that will change next year?
Who the heck are we losing to if we beat MSU and Ohio State?
It showed the potential of the team when playing well, so yes, it did change expectations for me.
Nothing changes. We'll be 8-4, possibly 7-5. The defense will be great if there's no big injuries, but the offense loses two of its best players and sputters. I don't think it's feasible having a great year with the youth we'll have on the offensive side of the ball. But, if we go 8-4 that's a step up from this season. Right?
Keep in mind that we get Amara Darboh back, and Funchess and Butt both return. We'll have enough offensive weapons at the skill positions.
I thought Michigan as a whole had a great chance to compete yesterday only b/c I thought OSU is more flawed than people realized. Thought for the majority of the MSU was the best team in the conference.
The O-Line & Defense will be better next year. I think its fair to expect a similar season next year to what MSU did this year considering the state of the B1G.
But for the Offense to truly hit it's potential, Borges still has to go. I feel sick just thinking about DG in THIS offense w/o the chemistry he had w/ Gallon.
We need an OC that understands our playmakers' strengths and puts them in positions to thrive. Until then, there will still be far too many moments of incompetence.
I disagree. I think Borges has to STAY. I think we need consistency in the OC.
I think the playcalling we were seeing this season was less stupid as committed to changing this program to a pocket passing/power running program and giving the youth on the team as much experience as possible running that offense. That's where we want to be, and the more dithering with hybrid offenses, the more it would hurt us in the long run.
So I think Borges was simply observing we need to take our medicine, bite the bullet, and commit to that kind of offense (except for the Game, wherein the gloves come off). Sounds harsh, but that's the system we wanted. And this is how you get (back) to it. We've paid the price for the education in terms of struggling offensively this season. We might as well reap the benefits next year.
Borges demonstrated he CLEARLY knows what he's doing. And that he wasn't going to bite the forbidden fruit of middling with the playcalling. That the players have to learn this is our system now. And that this is how we perform.
Playing under the hybrid system with Denard I think made transitioning a lot more difficult for DG, frankly. I think it made him put too much consideration into running, making him hesitate,and unwilling to throw the ball (especially after that disastrous game three or four, wherein he threw a bunch of INTs, that messed with his head majorly). He had trained under a QB run heavy offense last season, but was in a pocket offense this season. He was told he was good at running, but don't run TOO much. And then he lost confidence in his passing. The offensive line was in a similar situation.
For Borges to abandon the pain of the transition and scheme the offense just like it was 2011 would have screwed us up for next year, with, I would argue, an insignificant improvement for our record this season. It was a good choice.
And to drop Borges just when he got the offense one year under its belt of what we want to do here is the wrong decision. Heck, we might as well have just kept RR in the first place if we wanted Borges to change his playcalling to accommodate the veteran talent at the expense of youth development.
Keep Borges. Let it ride. It will be MUCH better next year.
Stop talking about firing. It disrupts the recruiting even if its patently false (which it is), and helps our rivals, who are deliberately feeding the rumor mill.
Losing the offensive line coach? I don't see that as being disruptive and likely necessary. But losing Borges (let alone Hoke) is a dramatic overreaction that will really, really, hurt us.
Besides, if you really love transition and overreaction that much, wouldn't it just be easier to become a Notre Dame fan?
With a dominating Bowl game no matter who they play. Haven't played two good games in a row all year. That would be a start.
Apart from the first two games, that is.
Man, that feels like years ago doesn't it?
If Borges was just more consistent and called more games as effectively as he did yesterday, this could've easily been a 9-11 win team. But one game shouldn't save his job. His inconsistency is maddening.
If we get rid of Borges and hire an OC who knows how to get the most out of his players EVERY WEEK, not just 3-4 weeks out of the year, then I'd predict a 9 win season, potentially 10. Those road games are going to be rough, though, but the talent will absolutely be there, especially if Mr. Peppers comes into the fold.
All hinges on the trenches. Can we finally form a competent O-Line, and can the D-Line generate consistent pressure? If not, we could be staring at another 7-win season.
Others have mentioned this, but on a broad level, the adjustments that need to be made are relatively narrow in their focus - the interior offensive line, for starters. Some better protection up front this year and possibly we get two games back this year, I would think. That's simply one example, of course.
I said it elsewhere - it is difficult at the present time to project records without seeing perhaps how the offseason develops and what the competition for positions looks like once the 2014 crowd gets to campus.
What is important is that quite a few players got a ton of on-field experience before they might have on other teams, and I have to believe the lessons crystallize into something positive and that continued coaching and learning the playbook makes them overall better ideally. This year and its lessons should translate into a team that I would estimate (based on very little data right now, of course) should be a couple games better next year.
Yes. If they can go toe-to-toe with a top 5 team, they should be a top-5 team. And looking at the schedule, there's really no excuse for not winning 9 games at worst including all seven home games, since they don't play Nebraska, Iowa, or Wisconsin. The trick will be overcoming Hoke's road woes: ND, Rutgers, MSU, Northwestern, OSU are the road games.
I think it changed my expectations. It showed that the young guys on the line are indeed capable of opening holes, and against the #8 (at the time) scoring defense in the nation. If the offense can just be average next year, I think we see a strong record.
My expectations were pretty high all along. This year's team isn't much different than MSU last year, with many close loses. If the team is just 7 points better in every game, they could have 11 wins next year.
I'm more bullish on the schedule too. I think schedules where the toughest 1-2 games are on the road, and the middling team are at home are best. Road trips to PSU and Iowa are always traps. Getting an improved Minny, PSU, and Maryland at home are a big deal.
I think the "being 7 points better" thing will come with experience. We go from being the team with the least returning starters in the conference in 2013, to probably one of the ones with the most. http://www.philsteele.com/Blogs/2013/JAN13/DBJan21.html
well, Auburn was 3-9 (0-8) last year and are now 11-1 (7-1) this year and that's in the SEC.
if anything, the game reaffirmed that M will never quit on a season and certianly will produce their best game vs OSU.
the above about Auburn gives me more hope than anything they reasonably could have done yesterday
Which is something that in all likelihood Michigan will not do. Also, they won two of their games on some of the most miraculous plays in all of college football history. That's not likely to happen for us.
eh, I don't care if 11 bobby bouchets were the reason AU went from 0-8 to 7-1 in the SEC in ONE YEAR.
if they can do that, we can go from 3-5 to 7-1 is this craptastic conference in one year.
to be in position to beat Bama on a miracle play is very impressive - it means they played right with them the whole game
Immediately after the game, I was feeling optimistic. But I remembered that feeling after Michigan did well without Denard down the stretch last year. The defense will probably get better next year. They might even figure out this spread-punt formation. The real issue--the same issue everyone saw last year--is which Borges shows up, if Borges returns at all.
If he's back, and he reverts to whatever he has been doing, this team is going to hurt. If he's not back, then maybe there are transition costs. But if he continues with whatever he was doing here--scheming with the players' strengths/weaknesses in mind--then it could be a 9-10 win season.
Yep. I expect magnificent things next year. I think Borges' stubborness in sticking with pocket pasing/power running will pay dividends 2013 more than middling the offense between philosophies like was done in 2011 (when we had a more agile runner but less capable passer than DG).
I'll be curious to see who the new offensive line coach will be. But everyone else on the coaching staff I would expect, and would be pleased to see, back on the Michigan sideline next year.
Hopefully Peppers doesn't jump ship: that would be a blow to our mystique. In that respect, the sooner the nonsense about Hoke's (and Borges') job being insecure passes, the better. Most of it, at this point, I am convinced is from B1G rivals who know how destructive such rumors would be to us.
Next year's perfomance will be great! Especially if Green puts on about 20lbs of muscle.
I feel like, even with Borges, we are on the right track. I'd rather get an OC who would not be as dogmatic and then I think we'd be national contenders annually. Now I think next year we ought to contend for the B1G.
Other random thoughts on yesterday: dammit! Our boys showed heart. Where was this all year? We're so much more than this record. Hopeful for next year. And DAMMIT! Three more yards!!!
I feel a lot better about another year of Gardner after Saturday. I feel better about the backs, the o-line. I worry about the WR though. Gallon is leaving. Chesson has had some nice catches, Butt and Funchess are back, but there isn't the go-to guy anymore.
I have 0 worries about the offense. Carlos Hyde won't be around there anymore. But this team could be a nice 9 to 11 win team. The schedule isn't as favorable as this year.
All yesterday did for me was show that the talent and grit are there to compete. The difference was that yesterday the kids were put in a position to succeed (or so it seemed to me).
Can someone please explain to me why the vast improvement between the 2 weeks? Seriously - it was like a completely different team.
I sat surrounded by Buckeye fans yesterday and quite a few of them were mumbling that next year our team could be scary good if they keep playing like they did.
I had to agree. Pay like they did yesterday and they are going to be very good - the million dollar question is what's holding them back? Seriously - without any snark can someone please tell me what happened to make yesterday's game so much more competitive?
MSU, ND, and OSU all lose significant pieces of their team next year.
This is what Michigan fans have been reduced to. Looking at rival teams and hoping they are weaker next year. Good gosh.
When exactly would we have not been saying that? When was this mystical time that we weren't worried about our rivals talent levels?
When Michigan owned John Cooper and it usually took some sort of dodgy play for MSU to win.
Yeah we totally weren't worried about OSUs talent during the 90s. Nothing but smooth sailing back then. Wow
And almost went to another national championship game
Obviously this team has the potential to go 10-2 or 11-1 next year IF the OC coaches to the players strengths like he did yesterday. I still think Borges and Funk are the weakest links in the chain and I'm not sold on Wellman and the S&C team.
I am hopeful and will be more optimistic by next season. Ideally Funk is gone after the season, but I fear this staff will be exactly yhe same next season and we'll struggle in places we shouldn't and REALLY struggle with our rivals. 7-5 or 8-4 at best I fear.
Just hope they take that toughness they played with on Saturday into the bowl game.
Yesterdays game showed that we have playmakers even in the younger guys.. Does this make me see Al and Funk different? Nope because they still need to go and what pisses me off is where was this game week 3 and on? It tells me they took it waaay to easy.
do people not remember last saturday when we lost to Iowa? we had 158 yards in that game, if we were able to gain 603 yards vs. OSU why could we not beat iowa? aL bORGES IS WHY, you people infuriate me to no end!!!!!!!!!!! AFBSAKLBVKFBVJA OV BROVBNHRNVWORN KVN WKJRF VW
It kind of just reminds me of all the potential this team has, and that it could very well be squandered once again next season.
But, I'm going to try to be optimistic and say I think the team next year will be quite a bit better. I hope maturity and the fact they will all have faced a good amount of adversity in the 2013 season will make the players go into the season with some big chips on their shoulders. I know, I know.. Wishful thinking..
I know everyone will get upset with this but Hoke is not recruiting difference makers. Other than Peppers, and he is probably gone, Hoke has recruited really nice kids but not elite talent (but.....but......Green....). I know everyone is going to get butthurt over this but Urb is recruiting talent that wins NC and Hoke is not.
morris, green, darboh, harris & harris, campbell, peppers; just to name a few. those are all high 4*/5* potential playmakers. every school in the country would take those guys.
If through bowl,spring and fall practices we get a traditional UM O line I see great improvement next year. That game definitely bought Al another year. Sad but true.
so frustrated hard to make a rational prediction. its really going to suck losing to OSU and MSU yet again, but seems inevitable.
what pisses me off is hokes "this was a shitty season" speach he made last year. this year was 10x worse. was he just thinking out loud or do his words mean anything? because if they were more than words you'd think we'd see some accountability in action.
right now i'm feeling like hoke and co are all talk. "this is michigan fergodsakes" doesn't seem to mean so much 3 years later.
6-6 or 7-5..... Hate to say it, but I just don't see where the wins are going to come from....
We could easily lose to Utah or PSU at home, Northwestern away, and then there's at ND, MSU, and OSU....
I really, really, really want to believe that we're going to be awesome and win the Big Ten, but it's just hard to envision it at the moment...
Low expectations and EXTREMELY high hopes.
It made me angry about 2013. I watched in disbelief as we movedthe ball all over a defense that was better than those that completely shut us down.
Borges is like a neighbor who constantly borrows your car and then you learn he has 3 cars of his own in his garage. WTF has he been doing all year?
If Kugler can put on weight and come in as advertised, then it's possible that Kalis is the only returning starter from this game. I assume Magnuson will be the right tackle, but who knows. Maybe Glasgow holds off one of the young guys
2 new starters at Tackle is already making me nervous
It reaffirmed my feeling that the devil we know is better than random Debordian coordinator. We're not going to get a good coordinator after the bowl games - who worthwhile is coming here when his potential boss was forced to fire his predecessor? - and Borges can get the most out of these guys.
To be clear I am not saying that Borges did a good job this year. I am saying that this year was more set on fire by O-line inexperience than poor play calling, and that 90+% of coordinators would have done the same or worse.
$500k + per year is plenty of incentive for a good OC to take a chance on; especially given the talent on that roster next year and beyond.
Moves my expectations up, but only slightly. Not wise to over react to a single performance.
I've always looked at this as a five to six year process as the staff basically rebuilds the roster. The RichRod three year talent gap pretty much populated the upper classes this year so 2013 was probably the year we would bottomed out. I look for a gradual climb back up, and 8-4 seems realistic for 2014.
My expectations won't change much unless there is a shake up coaching wise (i.e. new OC).
Much of the success or lackthereof will come with Gardner's improvement. Without a new QB coach, I'm not sure what to expect out of him next year. The three big road games will be a challenge - ND, MSU, OSU. The Utah game scares the crap out of me too. We could easily drop those four games and another woulda/coudla/shoulda. I think we are marginally improved if no coaching changes take place 8-4 overall (5-3 in the B1G).
New coaching talent on offense could spice things up but learning a new system could be just as bad if not worse than sticking with Borges at least in the short-term.
Gets 9-10 wins next year, hell, they should have had 9 this year. A year of experience and other teams rebuilding next year, I see us winning at least 9. I think we lose to ND but beat MSU and Ohio. It's about our time boys, hang on.
Nope. Unless a new OC is hired, mediocre to poor performance is my expectation.
No. This was one outlier performance that wasnt even enough to get the win at home. Likely to see more of the same next year.
I predicted the Michigan-Iowa game would be 21-21, and Ohio-Michigan would be 42-7, so you can be sure that half of this prediction will be accurate.
Aug. 30 APPALACHIAN STATE - Win, because if not, holy hell are we in trouble
Sept. 6 at Notre Dame - toss up, but with a 5th year senior at QB, we have a shot. I'll go with a win in the last match-up. Serves them right for cancelling the series. Don't mess with karma ND.
Sept. 13 MIAMI (Ohio) - Win because obviously
Sept. 20 UTAH - at Utah would be trouble, but this is at home, win.
Sept. 27 MINNESOTA* - They played better this year, but apparently we own them. Win.
Oct. 4 at Rutgers* - May be very similar to UConn this year, but Rutgers is better than UConn. I expect we'll welcome them to the B14 in style. Win.
Oct. 11 PENN STATE* - A sophomore Hackenburg presents more problems, but again, home field advantage is huge. Win.
Oct. 25 at Michigan State* - They suffer some personnel losses on defense. We have got to turn around the narrative of this series. Win, but only out of necessity, and I'm not sure that's a valid reason.
Nov. 1 INDIANA* (HC) - Homecoming vs. Indiana? That's another win. I thought this schedule was supposed to be tough, yet I have us at 9-0 so far. The eternal optimist returns.
Nov. 8 at Northwestern* - they were 1-7 in BIG play this year. Win.
Nov. 22 MARYLAND* - Seriously? Win.
Nov. 29 at Ohio State* - Toss-up. I guess it depends on how many of them turn pro. Let's say with O-line losses and early entries, they're playing a lot of young kids and making mistakes that we made this year. Win.
So it's on to the B1G championship game against... Wisconsin. Let's win that too, while we're at it.
In reality, we're probably looking at losing 2 of @ND, @MSU, @OSU, and getting upset once at home. I'd be happy with 9-3 after 8-4 and 7-5 seasons.
1.) @ ND, 2.) @ MSU and 3.) @ OSU. Plus I know there are one or two loses out there. So, no I don't think the record will improve much. I'm hoping the team will. We will have a very young OL and hopefully during summer camp a group of starters will emerge and they must play this unit through the season.
Borges will be the OC and will call some inconsistent games. This how Borges rolls.
If Michigan loses to MSU and Ohio next year Hoke should be let go.
Stop repeating yourself. We heard you the first 800 times and you're not contributing anything new to the board. Now it's just noise.
was close minus the one I EL. With better luck next year and the experience coming back, I'd say we have an actual serious shot at the B1G title game. Not just an average shot like this year.
If I had to make a prediction, I would go 8-4, this team is still young. I think the team will be much better by the end of the season. OSU will have a tough fight on their hands. Everything turns around in 2015, even with Morris at QB! I'm going with a prediction of 10-2 or 11-1 in 2015. If we have 4 or more loses in 2015 then we need a new coach.
All depends on the Oline and the play calling.
team shows up for the bowl game that played OSU yesterday ill be excited for next season.
WIll someone point out to me all these daunting games eveyrone is so scared of? All over the interwebz is "OMGZ Meechigans 2014 schedule is brutal!". I see 8 games that should absolutely be wins...if they are not the whole season is a shit show and the whole staff will be fired...I just don't see that next year.
Then I see 4 toss ups. If we win 2 of the toss ups you got 10-2. Anything worse than 9-3 should be viewed a colossal failure. As far as those toss up games I feel pretty strongly UM should actually win 3 of those games.
at Notre dame....Toss Up
Penn State....Toss up
at MSU....Toss up
at ohio....Toss up
"Feel" is appropriate, since you can't point to any evidence of how we've actually performed on the road under Hoke to support calling road games at MSU, ND, and OSU as "tossups."
Well hard evidence is tough to state. The hard evidence probably showed UM being 10-2 or 11-1 right now after the notre dame game, but after being 7-4 the hard evidence probably showed UM getting blown out by osu.
Sometimes I think we dissect it too much. When i was workign as an athletic trainer at BG I heard meyer say a couple things over and over...dynamic talent and experience wins 99% of the time. That is also how I do my sports betting for college...trutfhully it usually pans out well. Not always...but usually.
There was major coaching issues there that caused UM to lose to some teams that do not have more dynamic talent and/or experience than.
But generally year in and year out that simple equation tells a lot; team with more dynamic talent combined with more experience wins. When I look at the schedule I see UM getting more talented, and the current talent more experienced. I see a team that will have more experienced talent than 10 to 12 of the teams they will play. The 4 "toss up games" are based on road games and the upredictability of 18-22 year olds. Hence my 9-3 at worst but should be 10-2.
Don't care what happened last Saturday or any other game this season. Don't care who's coaching, calling plays or what games will be played where.
What I do care about is next years offensive line.
Unless guys like Braden, Kalis, Magnuson, Bryant and some
Of the freshman take huge steps forward. Next year could be a lot
Of the same... I expect Gardner and the running backs to
Improve. But you're only as good as the guys blocking for you.
Before Saturday I expected Michigan to go 15-0 in 2014. After Saturday, I expect Michigan to go 15-0 in 2014.
Road schedule is brutal.
There is no hard evidence right now that OL coaching is what it needs to be—we're left with hoping that our struggles are purely and only a result of youth.
Nor is there any hard evidence IMHO that our S&C staff is building the strength that we need, especially on the OL and DL. Again, we're left with the explanation that seeing our OL and DLs get pushed back frequently at the snap is due solely and only to our youth.