It's amazing that one game has made people forget being negative in rushing yards for however many games in a row.
It's amazing that one game has made people forget being negative in rushing yards for however many games in a row.
A careful analysis of the past 3 seasons says he should be toast. But instead, people are content on claiming one outlier performance in a game that we lost as evidence that he shouldn't be sent packing.
As someone earlier in this thread mentioned, Ohio State's defensive coordinators are on the hot seat and they haven't lost a game in two years. Borges had two great games and nine terrible ones (Indiana was good but their defense is horrendous) and suddenly we're okay with him staying. Shows the difference in expectations, we're now okay with mediocrity because of how bad the offense was this season. Borges should've been out of a job a month ago.
I never thought Hoke was in real danger or believed that he should be on the "hot seat," but it was concerning that the team seemed to be tailing away a la the Rodriguez era. It would be worrisome if in his third year you saw a "lost the team" kind of ending. I feel like this game made clear that the players were still on board with Hoke and each other, and that's definitely a good omen going into bowl practices and the spring.
It was also the best game in the careers of Kalis/Magnuson/Glasgow as well as D. Smith and Jake Butt. That's great news given the loss of Gallon.
The flip side of next year's tough road schedule is that all seven home games are should-wins, and there's @Northwestern (losing Colter and Mark) and a road game against Rutgers that seems likely to be a Ryan Field East situation. So eight or nine wins seem like a good baseline. We'll have seven linemen who've seen the field on at least their third year in the program, plus Bosch and Kugler.
The big question of course is whether this is a sign that the players are capable of executing the kinds of plays that will give Borges' offense coherence. The use of Gallon, Hayes, Butt, and Touissaint on screens and misdirections — and Dileo on short routes — would seem to be just what the doctor ordered as far as keeping opponents off-balance to open up the power runs and long bombs that we know Al loves. Can I even dream that Norfleet will get some of those Dileo/Gallon/Toussaint touches next year? Of course, we've been burned before.
I still think offensive coaching changes need to be made. An elite OC and O line coach could make next year interesting. Without the changes I just predict more excuses about youth, schedule, yada yada. Youth shouldn't be an excuse and there are no "brutal" schedules when you play in the B10.
Just my 2 cents that means nothing.
My takeaway from this game in particular is that a Brady Hoke-coached team is going to give OSU all it can handle. If there was ever a year for us to get crushed, it was this one. Just as Dantonio is obsessed with Michigan and will have his team ready for us, Hoke is the same for OSU. That's good, because we need that kind of focus to beat a guy like Meyer. We need to make sure we don't become so focused on OSU that we don't bring our A game against other November opponents, though.
I think we might eventually look at this season as similar to 2005 - a year in which every game seemed to be close and we let a bunch get away from us at the end. That year, besides the five losses, we won two games in overtime (MSU, Iowa), and one on the last play of the game in regulation (PSU), so like this year, it could have been worse or better. I think we will see a pretty significant improvement next year, although the schedule will make it tough to dramatically improve in the win column. I see us ending up around 9-3 with the losses coming in tough road games. (We need to get over this home/road disparity thing - that's the most alarming trend under Hoke thus far.)
Couldn't agree more. They were a great team last year and it was a hard fought game with us starting a QB for his 3rd or 4th game.
I don't understand where all the doubters are coming from. The future is bright.
I'm holding tight with 8-4 next year. Will be shocked if they boot Borges this year. My only gripe is I wish the athletic department (or the responsible authority) would spring for a full-time QB coach. I think it would do wonders for the development of Gardner and the other young QB's.
There is an NCAA rule that limits how many coaches can be on staff. If Michigan hires a QB coach then someone else has to be let go.
is about the brutal schedule. I think 9-3 is realistic, with losses at ND, at MSU, and at OSU.
If Hoke loses to MSU and OSU next season he should be let go.
Ohio's defensive game plan was atrocious.
It was shocking that Fickell didn't follow the "formula" for crushing our offense - release the hounds!
We really struggled whenever an opponent (even Nebraska!) loaded up the box and dared us to beat it.
I'm hopeful our line will be improved next year, but we need a better scheme to beat press coverage/loading the box, and Devin needs to make better, quicker decisions (which should happen with experience).
From a talent standpoint, I feel we're adding depth and talent every year. That didn't translate into wins this year, but I'm cautiously optimistic next year will be better.
You are supposed to play well against your main rival at home. And I'm glad hoke and co how to do that at least. But there was just too much ineptitude before that game to change any expectations.
My prediction still stands: after 5 years of Hoke, no B10 championships and only 1 win against Ohio. If we get a new OC, then this could change, but I doubt it.
There were certainly a lot of positives about yesterday, but the fact that people are "happy" about that game tomorrow have really lowered their expectations on this program.
The expectations never change. Win the Big Ten Championship.
I don't think this one game changes any opinions on Borges, especially the ones that count: Hoke an Brandon. If they were going to fire him before The Game, they are still likely to fire him. He called a nice game, for the most part, but that is about all that changed; he called nice games in 2011 and 2012 as well; just not enough of them.
What does have me excited for next year is how Gardner is finishing the year. He seems to becoming a leader on this team, and one who has shown he is able to carry this team on his back. I don't think we realized how inexperienced he was this year, and how much he needed to grow. I'm excited to see what he can do next year, especially if we have an offensive coordinator who is able and willing to maximize his talents. Talent-wise, I think he is better than Miller; he just needs a gameplan that takes advantage of it.
Yesterday I was at The Game cheering my ass off in Section 14. Their O-Line took over and started really moving our D-Line in the second half. We didn't have enough depth or experience to hold the point of attack. When one of their O-lineman got to our LB, Hyde had 5 yards or more automatically. Hyde is a beast and when he had.clean feet to start he was hard to stop. Ohio is going to have problems in the future because they won't have that power back. All their other backs are speed /spread guys that don't want contact.
Yesterday was the result of the past 7 years really. Our program has been in coaching and player turmoil and we basically lost years during the Rich Rod era. They suffered through one year of Fickell but landed their guy in Meyer as soon as they could. He didn't have to suffer through rebuilding a roster and walked in to having a QB ready for his system. They have depth and experience on their O-Line and we do not. Our O-Line will get better with depth and experience. Deveon Smith and Derrick Green are going to be unbelievably good next year and beyond.
I liked the decision to go for 2 but I wished that we would have used our timeout after they used theirs to make sure we had the play call right and everyone was on the same page.
We lost and I understand that there are no moral victories but I will say this. Hoke has went toe-to-toe with Meyer the past 2 years with an inexperienced and less talented team both time and lost by a combined 7 points. I am not nearly as worried about the future with him but they need to review the entire year on both sides of the ball. Mattison should stay because the D has been more consistent all year and will be good next year. On offense, Funk should go, Borges should unless he signs a contract promising to unleash the offense each game, Jackson might have to retire too.
Overall very proud of the team yesterday ad Go Blue!
Meyer will likely have more talent and experience most years he plays us.
Hoke just doesn't have it to go toe to toe (and win) against the likes of Meyer.
He are about to hit a really bad stretch for us if OSU goes to the MNC (and wins). Expecting recruiting to take a dive and I would expect another 7 years or loses against OSU. The main question is will Brandon be able to see this and get ahead of it before it gets ahead of us?
Hoke just doesn't have it to go toe to toe (and win) against the likes of Meyer.
This is a curious conclusion given that we were literally a single play away from beating them as a two-touchdown underdog.
I agree that OSU winning a national title (which I highly doubt happens unless FSU's Winston is suspended) wouldn't be good for us, but the idea that it would cause our recruiting to "take a dive" is sheer overreaction. Ohio isn't the only place in the country we recruit and there are too many players from there for them to monopolize, anyway.
And how will they have more experience most years? Their players have four years of eligibility just like everyone else's. The issue right now is that our roster is disproportionately underclass-heavy. It's not going to be like that in future years.
But we lost (at home no less). In the end, victories (not of the moral variety) matter.
It's my baseline expectation that we will give it our best effort against our main rival at home. If not then the coach doesn't "get it". But Meyer and crew are just on a whole level above our staff. Plain and simple. Sure, we may grab a game here and there against OSU over the next 10 years. We can call the rest moral victories and pat ourselves on the back.
Meyer will out recruit us most years which will allow them to balance their starting roster with more experience. But we'll see what happens here. And if he closes off the state of Ohio, we can certainly goes elsewhere, but that will take some time to develop the relationships.
I know I sound pessimistic, but I think I'm being a realist.
There is reason why OSU can get major violations and barely skip a beat. There are reasons why we are a clean program (despite stretchgate) and can barely look average in a bad conference. They "get it". We don't.
Honestly, 90% of our problems this season were ultimately caused by the weak interior O-line. If we had a halfway decent interior line, Borges' job status would not be an issue. If we can get that fixed, then I see 9-4 or 10-3 with wins over OSU and MSU as a realistic possibility, Borges or no Borges.
Yes but if we go 9-4 or 10-3 next year it sets up for a do-or-die year in 2015. The program will be completely Hoke's, the 2012, 2013, 2014, and hopefully the 2015 classes will be on campus. We need to be a national power that year of we only go 9-4 or 10-3 next year since that will not likely get us into the BTCG. It is getting close to put up or shut up time. Also from here on out please no more excuses. This is Hoke and co's team now. The prior guy is out and has been for awhile.
MSU has eaten Borges's lunch the past 3 years. OSU will probably go out and get a top of the line defensive coordinator.
Weak interior O-line or no, Borges has not shown himself capable of beating competent DCs in either play-calling or game-planning. Even in 2011, when we had the best center in the country and Two redshirt junior guards, we still had games in which the offense just totally wet the bed. Why should we believe that will change next year?
Who the heck are we losing to if we beat MSU and Ohio State?
It showed the potential of the team when playing well, so yes, it did change expectations for me.
Nothing changes. We'll be 8-4, possibly 7-5. The defense will be great if there's no big injuries, but the offense loses two of its best players and sputters. I don't think it's feasible having a great year with the youth we'll have on the offensive side of the ball. But, if we go 8-4 that's a step up from this season. Right?
Keep in mind that we get Amara Darboh back, and Funchess and Butt both return. We'll have enough offensive weapons at the skill positions.
I thought Michigan as a whole had a great chance to compete yesterday only b/c I thought OSU is more flawed than people realized. Thought for the majority of the MSU was the best team in the conference.
The O-Line & Defense will be better next year. I think its fair to expect a similar season next year to what MSU did this year considering the state of the B1G.
But for the Offense to truly hit it's potential, Borges still has to go. I feel sick just thinking about DG in THIS offense w/o the chemistry he had w/ Gallon.
We need an OC that understands our playmakers' strengths and puts them in positions to thrive. Until then, there will still be far too many moments of incompetence.
I disagree. I think Borges has to STAY. I think we need consistency in the OC.
I think the playcalling we were seeing this season was less stupid as committed to changing this program to a pocket passing/power running program and giving the youth on the team as much experience as possible running that offense. That's where we want to be, and the more dithering with hybrid offenses, the more it would hurt us in the long run.
So I think Borges was simply observing we need to take our medicine, bite the bullet, and commit to that kind of offense (except for the Game, wherein the gloves come off). Sounds harsh, but that's the system we wanted. And this is how you get (back) to it. We've paid the price for the education in terms of struggling offensively this season. We might as well reap the benefits next year.
Borges demonstrated he CLEARLY knows what he's doing. And that he wasn't going to bite the forbidden fruit of middling with the playcalling. That the players have to learn this is our system now. And that this is how we perform.
Playing under the hybrid system with Denard I think made transitioning a lot more difficult for DG, frankly. I think it made him put too much consideration into running, making him hesitate,and unwilling to throw the ball (especially after that disastrous game three or four, wherein he threw a bunch of INTs, that messed with his head majorly). He had trained under a QB run heavy offense last season, but was in a pocket offense this season. He was told he was good at running, but don't run TOO much. And then he lost confidence in his passing. The offensive line was in a similar situation.
For Borges to abandon the pain of the transition and scheme the offense just like it was 2011 would have screwed us up for next year, with, I would argue, an insignificant improvement for our record this season. It was a good choice.
And to drop Borges just when he got the offense one year under its belt of what we want to do here is the wrong decision. Heck, we might as well have just kept RR in the first place if we wanted Borges to change his playcalling to accommodate the veteran talent at the expense of youth development.
Keep Borges. Let it ride. It will be MUCH better next year.
Stop talking about firing. It disrupts the recruiting even if its patently false (which it is), and helps our rivals, who are deliberately feeding the rumor mill.
Losing the offensive line coach? I don't see that as being disruptive and likely necessary. But losing Borges (let alone Hoke) is a dramatic overreaction that will really, really, hurt us.
Besides, if you really love transition and overreaction that much, wouldn't it just be easier to become a Notre Dame fan?
With a dominating Bowl game no matter who they play. Haven't played two good games in a row all year. That would be a start.
Apart from the first two games, that is.
Man, that feels like years ago doesn't it?
If Borges was just more consistent and called more games as effectively as he did yesterday, this could've easily been a 9-11 win team. But one game shouldn't save his job. His inconsistency is maddening.
If we get rid of Borges and hire an OC who knows how to get the most out of his players EVERY WEEK, not just 3-4 weeks out of the year, then I'd predict a 9 win season, potentially 10. Those road games are going to be rough, though, but the talent will absolutely be there, especially if Mr. Peppers comes into the fold.
All hinges on the trenches. Can we finally form a competent O-Line, and can the D-Line generate consistent pressure? If not, we could be staring at another 7-win season.
victories only real victories. Anything short of having a shot at a BIG title going into the final game is a disappointment. People need to drop the "we are young" excuse and the "just wait till next year" garbage. Bottom line is every team has some new or young players at key positions, whether it is OL, QB, RB, whatever. That will always be the case for Michigan and every other team in the nation. Just win some damn games against opponents in this weak ass conference.
Others have mentioned this, but on a broad level, the adjustments that need to be made are relatively narrow in their focus - the interior offensive line, for starters. Some better protection up front this year and possibly we get two games back this year, I would think. That's simply one example, of course.
I said it elsewhere - it is difficult at the present time to project records without seeing perhaps how the offseason develops and what the competition for positions looks like once the 2014 crowd gets to campus.
What is important is that quite a few players got a ton of on-field experience before they might have on other teams, and I have to believe the lessons crystallize into something positive and that continued coaching and learning the playbook makes them overall better ideally. This year and its lessons should translate into a team that I would estimate (based on very little data right now, of course) should be a couple games better next year.
Yes. If they can go toe-to-toe with a top 5 team, they should be a top-5 team. And looking at the schedule, there's really no excuse for not winning 9 games at worst including all seven home games, since they don't play Nebraska, Iowa, or Wisconsin. The trick will be overcoming Hoke's road woes: ND, Rutgers, MSU, Northwestern, OSU are the road games.
I think it changed my expectations. It showed that the young guys on the line are indeed capable of opening holes, and against the #8 (at the time) scoring defense in the nation. If the offense can just be average next year, I think we see a strong record.
My expectations were pretty high all along. This year's team isn't much different than MSU last year, with many close loses. If the team is just 7 points better in every game, they could have 11 wins next year.
I'm more bullish on the schedule too. I think schedules where the toughest 1-2 games are on the road, and the middling team are at home are best. Road trips to PSU and Iowa are always traps. Getting an improved Minny, PSU, and Maryland at home are a big deal.
I think the "being 7 points better" thing will come with experience. We go from being the team with the least returning starters in the conference in 2013, to probably one of the ones with the most. http://www.philsteele.com/Blogs/2013/JAN13/DBJan21.html
well, Auburn was 3-9 (0-8) last year and are now 11-1 (7-1) this year and that's in the SEC.
if anything, the game reaffirmed that M will never quit on a season and certianly will produce their best game vs OSU.
the above about Auburn gives me more hope than anything they reasonably could have done yesterday
Which is something that in all likelihood Michigan will not do. Also, they won two of their games on some of the most miraculous plays in all of college football history. That's not likely to happen for us.
eh, I don't care if 11 bobby bouchets were the reason AU went from 0-8 to 7-1 in the SEC in ONE YEAR.
if they can do that, we can go from 3-5 to 7-1 is this craptastic conference in one year.
to be in position to beat Bama on a miracle play is very impressive - it means they played right with them the whole game
Immediately after the game, I was feeling optimistic. But I remembered that feeling after Michigan did well without Denard down the stretch last year. The defense will probably get better next year. They might even figure out this spread-punt formation. The real issue--the same issue everyone saw last year--is which Borges shows up, if Borges returns at all.
If he's back, and he reverts to whatever he has been doing, this team is going to hurt. If he's not back, then maybe there are transition costs. But if he continues with whatever he was doing here--scheming with the players' strengths/weaknesses in mind--then it could be a 9-10 win season.
Yep. I expect magnificent things next year. I think Borges' stubborness in sticking with pocket pasing/power running will pay dividends 2013 more than middling the offense between philosophies like was done in 2011 (when we had a more agile runner but less capable passer than DG).
I'll be curious to see who the new offensive line coach will be. But everyone else on the coaching staff I would expect, and would be pleased to see, back on the Michigan sideline next year.
Hopefully Peppers doesn't jump ship: that would be a blow to our mystique. In that respect, the sooner the nonsense about Hoke's (and Borges') job being insecure passes, the better. Most of it, at this point, I am convinced is from B1G rivals who know how destructive such rumors would be to us.
Next year's perfomance will be great! Especially if Green puts on about 20lbs of muscle.
I feel like, even with Borges, we are on the right track. I'd rather get an OC who would not be as dogmatic and then I think we'd be national contenders annually. Now I think next year we ought to contend for the B1G.
Other random thoughts on yesterday: dammit! Our boys showed heart. Where was this all year? We're so much more than this record. Hopeful for next year. And DAMMIT! Three more yards!!!
I feel a lot better about another year of Gardner after Saturday. I feel better about the backs, the o-line. I worry about the WR though. Gallon is leaving. Chesson has had some nice catches, Butt and Funchess are back, but there isn't the go-to guy anymore.
I have 0 worries about the offense. Carlos Hyde won't be around there anymore. But this team could be a nice 9 to 11 win team. The schedule isn't as favorable as this year.
All yesterday did for me was show that the talent and grit are there to compete. The difference was that yesterday the kids were put in a position to succeed (or so it seemed to me).
Can someone please explain to me why the vast improvement between the 2 weeks? Seriously - it was like a completely different team.
I sat surrounded by Buckeye fans yesterday and quite a few of them were mumbling that next year our team could be scary good if they keep playing like they did.
I had to agree. Pay like they did yesterday and they are going to be very good - the million dollar question is what's holding them back? Seriously - without any snark can someone please tell me what happened to make yesterday's game so much more competitive?
MSU, ND, and OSU all lose significant pieces of their team next year.
This is what Michigan fans have been reduced to. Looking at rival teams and hoping they are weaker next year. Good gosh.
When exactly would we have not been saying that? When was this mystical time that we weren't worried about our rivals talent levels?