A state friend of mine posted this on his facebook, and it's pretty interesting/incriminating. You decide...
spoiler alert: i linked this
Fail embed on the original post here's the video,
What did he post?
wasn't fair for you to get negged for asking a legitimate question when nothing was there.
The obvious flop from Sheehey, or the play-by-play guys defending and encouraging it?
Dakich can go to hell. I swear he is the worst announcer I've heard in the past 5 years at least. He even tried to bring up that "many people" aka state fans and him believe zeller tried to pull nix's arm into his crotch.
He is a terrible announcer, but he's actually right about the Zeller/Nix play.
"many people" and him... and me
I think that broadcasters should be limited to calling games with teams that they played for. It's aggravating listening to Jalen call a Michigan game, or Clark Kellogg doing an OSU game.
It would help avoid extreme bias like this from a nationally televised game, because you know he doesn't say this if it's anyone besides Indiana. No way he encourages a Gopher to flop if the roles are reversed.
Tommy Heinson doing NBA games back in the 80's & 90's for CBS was the worst. Because they were so good, the Celtics were often on the CBS slate. He was the worst homer I've ever heard.
Why do we have to listen to the announcer's opinions? What ever happened to just calling the game?????
I don't know if you saw his heated exchange with former MBB player Anthony Wright on twitter.
When you frame something with "the way things are going in college basketball" that usually doesn't mean you're actually encouraging it-- it's more a criticism of how something is being called or handled, but being realistic about how teams will take advantage.
But again, I'm not sure what point he was trying to make... whether it's touch fouls to the head, or instant replay or what.
On this same play even, it looks like Oladipo just flat out tackles whomever he's guarding.
The best thing about this whole fake is how I constantly replayed the 1:55 mark or the hot blonde at the scorers table. Can someone just get a loop of her closer up?
Interesting. I certainly wouldn't put it past Crean, and the two videos do warrant some suspicion, especially because Crean yells at the officials right away for a video review.
At what point does the B1G director of officals say "listen, Indiana has a reputation for flopping and/or trying to draw these types of fouls. Let's not give them the benefit of the doubt."?
Sheehey should have been called for an unsportsmanlike penalty.
He was laying on his elbow, it looked like. And his reaction was really late.
Looks like a flop.
You must really love following recruits on twitter. To say this is incriminating is a pretty big stretch. Even if he did say that, which I doubt, I really don't have a huge problem with it. Selling a foul is just gamesmanship.
Selling a foul is gamesmanship? No, it's not. It's a cheap trick played by desperate teams with no class or pride in what they're doing. And the evidence may not be conclusive, but it's not at all a stretch to say it's incriminating. What else do you think Crean was signaling with that elbow motion?
Could be telling them to man up on rebounds. Could be telling them to get in tight on the guy so they get a foul if he elbows them in the head and the guy took it too far. Could be telling them to flop. There's no way of knowing. When I saw the thread title though I was expecting to see an obvious mouthing of the word flop or some other variant of the same. I dislike the guy as much as anyone but this is inconclusive at best. And it's up to the refs to figure out if it's a foul or not. What is it when a center falls on his ass to get a charge because a point guard ran into him? What is it when a guy throws up his hands and yells when he loses the ball under the basket? Note carefully I'm saying selling a foul, not faking a foul. There's a difference.
It is obvious that Crean coached this and it is an embarassment to the coaching profession. He is in effect forcing his players to cheat and lie to get an advantage...That is so SEC. I hope the B1G looks into this and the mainstream media is all over him for this.
How would you feel if this happened against us in a key game and the refs blew the call?? It is NOT just part of the game.
what's that thing they say about the prosperity of cheaters? Go Gophers.
Karma be a BITCH!
Whoa. Definitely looks like it.
I work with a guy who went to High School with Crean and he says he's just one of those guys who will do absolutely anything to win regardless of morals and ethics. FWIW
I went to school with Hitler and he was a nice guy with a fro and liked to paint. Or maybe that was Bob Ross.
I'm sure he teaches them to flop. The rules about elbows are terrible. Even if he did get hit, which he didn't, he was crouching, trying to get below the Minnesota player's arms from behind. I wish they called flagrants on flopping. If they're already going to the monitor, it's easy to see.
is one of the handful of things the NBA does right, but I can't think of the other four . . .
It would fit right in with my interpretation of the Zeller & Nix play last week...Crean is a huge d-bag. OSU fans have seen this more than Michigan fans, but it's real.
What? An Indiana basketball coach is a jack ass? Who would ever believe such a thng?
And a disciple of Tom Izzo none the less! Shocker!
...than "flopping on a drive" to get the charge call. It is up to the Refs to get it right.
Tonight they did.
Firstly, if the ref's get it wrong, a kid can be thrown out of the game.
Secondly, it can have a much larger impact on the score. Two shots and the ball is huge.
Thirdly, and arguably most importantly, it's abusing a rule that is designed to protect kids. The point is to try to prevent concussions. But Crean coached Sheehey to contort himself under that players elbow and try to get hit in the head, or make it look that way. It flies in the face of anything resembling sportsmanship. It should in itself be a flagrant, and possibly a suspendible offense, for player and coach.
1. If (when) refs get it wrong, it always impacts the score/game.
2. Any foul, including a +1 may involve a momentum or point shift.
3. Coaching a kid to flop on a drive, taking out a drive for a dunk against a poor FT shooter and any number of tactics may result in concussion or injury.
4. Conjecture: "But Crean coached Sheehey to contort himself under that players elbow and try to get hit in the head, or make it look that way. "
5. An "acting" foul to prevent such actions, including +2 and the ball for the affronted team might mitigate some of the Hollywood nonsense.
In this case, I think the offending coach should be subject to two free shots to the junk ala Nix/Zeller, it might send a much more clear and to the point response to clear up this issue.
Ya, I think they're a great band. What about you?
When something like an elbow happens at such a convenient time for a time that is down late in the game, it really has to be egregious for them to call it.
1:55 -- Samantha Ponder is drop dead gorgeous.
DAMN YOU CHRISTIAN PONDER!
Granted, it was a flop, but I've seen more dramatic flops with much less contact involved. Also, I hardly find an 8 second clip with no sound from Crean necessarily incriminating. As lame as it may be if Crean did tell him to flop, with every possible elbow to face being reviewed on the monitor, the way I see it is if the guy legitimately and flagrantly gets elbowed above the shoulders, who cares about his overreaction (or in some cases, lack thereof; a flagrant is a flagrant. If it was a non-reviewable play, I'd care a lot more.
I don't think the integrity of the game should depend on our ability to go to a video monitor.
Alas, that's the way things are, regardless of what anyone else feels the game should be. I personally prefer knowing that replay is there when needed, and on a sidenote, I can't wait for baseball to more fully join the replay party.
As long as Bud Selig is the commish the replay machine will remain buried under cobwebs. It's infuriates me that my favorite sport is so far behind the times, it's a joke to not have safe/out calls as part of the replay system.
I think replay is a great tool. I just don't think it makes sense to say that inherently unsportsmanlike conduct is acceptable because we can just review the play, which seems to be your suggestion.
I'm not trying to advocate flopping, but just like a good defensive player (like Novak did, for example) adds a little acting to the end of a charge to make sure he gets the ref's full attention, I don't have a huge issue with a player really emphasizing that a elbow has contacted his head. With the elbow rule out in full force, having replay there for the officials to determine whether the contact was incidental or flagrant just personally makes me a little more comfortable with this dramatization (in moderation). On the other end, flat out flopping and crossing your fingers that the ref buys it or will magically see something on the monitor that makes it swing your way is utterly uncalled for.
Edit: To show how biased I am on the subject of flopping, I was a long snapper in my football playing days and would purposely take a little bit longer to lift my head back up after a snap. If someone dare try to touch me at least quasi head on while I was still in my prone position, I would flamboyantly drop to ground to let the ref know he needs to at least think about throwing his flag. There is unfortunately an art behind the strategic flop and it serves a purpose (again, in moderation).
I have no problem with people exagerrating a true foul to show the ref that it was indeed a foul. I guess the problem I have is that the refs frequently DO buy this kind of blatant flopping. It may be a different story with elbows, but I just think too much of the game today is trying to get the whistle. There is a reason people make fun of professional soccer. Flopping has done serious damage to the sport, and I don't want basketball to suffer the same fate.
Nor can I...
I may or may not come to your place of residence in anger because you reminded me of this. Hopefully the jury blows the call and I get off scot free.
But really, all of us Tigers fans hate this, but are very proud of the class act Armando employed. He didn't bitch; he didn't yell; he didn't throw a fit; he smiled and said, "Come on man" in his head.
He's gone now, but I'll always be a fan of his for his class and Tigerdome.
That's like saying Indiana put 6 guys on the floor, but, EH, I've seen a team get away with 7 on the floor, so . . . ?
and put myself in your shoes to try to make that comparison make sense. I can't. That was just a god awful attempt at an analogy you made. Contact, albeit very light contact, from the Gopher player's arm was made to the guy's head, that's indisputable. Sheehey just milked the love tap way too much and refs considered the contact incidental, which it obviously was. It was not phantom elbow as we saw with Manny Harris' one against Purdue a few years back.
Now, if you don't understand my gif (and seemingly don't understand body language and what someone shrugging their shoulders implies), I can't really help ya out there.
as well as what the gif means in itself. But your post led me to believe that you were saying "I've seen worse." This isn't an excuse for it being a foul/flop or not.
I don't think he was saying "I've seen worse". I think he was saying that the worst isn't as bad as it seems due to our ability to review the play. I too found your simile a little puzzling.
close your parentheses, which annoyed me for some reason.
I saw that after someone already replied to my post. By the way, you didn't put a comma after "also," which is pretty grammatically obnoxious as well. We're all human and thank goodness we're on a message board where grammar is irrelevant.
but it is in a title so its okay right? (No.)
I know it's a message board and everyone makes mistakes and/or is more careless. I didn't neg you FWIW. I wouldn't say grammar is irrelevant.
Didn't mean to be a dick about it, though I see that it sort of came across that way. Sorry about that Jhender.
Or maybe be forgot to finish his smiley face :)
While frankly it was a huge douche move by Crean, I wouldn't put it past a lot of college coaches to do the same thing in that case... Doesn't make it right or acceptable, though.
I have no doubt that something out of that timeout-huddle led him to do that FLOP. I called it and thought it as it happened and the replays they showed afterward gave me all I needed to think it a cheap flop. Tirico and Dakich in their own way even said as much.
They were in a bad spot so I don't have a problem with it no matter how much it may be frowned on but u need a miracle in that situation. And an elbow did hit his face even tho it wasn't malicious
he hit the elbow with his face. You can foul with your face, can't you?
I was just meaning there was contact. I wasn't trying to say that it was a foul on minnesota.
But the real problem here is the idiotic rule that requires the refs to go to the monitor to review potential elbows.
I think it's the only thing that keeps the blatant flopping from being effective. Does anyone remember the OSU player faking getting hit with an elbow against us? I think it was in 2011. The replay showed the elbow missed by about a foot. What I find ridiculous is that a player can attempt such a flop without fear of penalty.
And he probably shouldn't have. I'm not that upset. This kind of thing happens. It's only a slight jump from telling a kid if he gets fouled to make SURE the refs know it. And any coach who wouldn't tell their players to sell a foul (a real foul), isn't doing it right.
Exactly too many people here act like everything that an opposing coach does is terrible and will ignore it if michigan does something like that. Crean was trying to win and there is nothing wrong with that. Go Blue!
Coaching like this just doesn't belong in the game. I've lost even more respect for Crean.
Sweep the Leg!
A problem with that?!?
Wow, what a bullshit move. It looks like Sheehey is leaning his head on the guy's elbow so that he'll move it right into his face. He's not even trying to defend or steal, he's just sitting there specifically to take a shot to the face.
Sure seems like it.
I wonder how much time Crean devotes in practice to fake fouls.
I wonder how much time Crean devotes in practice to fake fouls.
I wonder how much time Crean devotes in practice to fake fouls.
As much time as you spend triple
"Take the fall, act hurt, get indignant." -Gordon Bombay
The main thing that makes me doubt that Crean instructed his players to flop is that it was Will Sheehy. Guy probably falls down after getting out of bed in the morning and looks around for a call.
But the charge that Mbakwe tried to take against Zeller late in the half looked like a flop as well. He started leaning back and falling down before Zeller even made contact with him and he look astonished that a charge wasn't called. Different situations and time in the game, but my thought is a lot of flops happen out there and most of them are probably advised to the player in some way.
Is flopping in BBall any different than a punter flailing around whenever a defender gets within 2 inches of his foot?
When that happens everyone just laughs and shakes there head and says "thats football", who cares if Crean told a kid to flop, if the Refs call BS crap like that then the coaches deserve to go after that advantage.
When I saw this live I thought maybe he did catch an elbow but after seeing the replay a few times it sure seems like a flop. It reminds me of the original Mighty Ducks movie when he coaches them to flop the entire game (when they were still "District 5" and sucked).
to run around headbutting the other team's elbows and then falling down and start thrashing around wildly. Maybe you can even slam your head on the floor as you fall, so that you start to bleed and get blood all over. That will surely get someone thrown out.
It didn't even look convincing in the least. And Crean calling the timeout right before to mastermind the whole thing, then yelling at the refs immediately afterward to review it were clinchers.
The Big Ten refs need to start dealing with this problem, otherwise unscrupulous coaches like Crean will abuse it even more. All it will take is for them to call a few technicals on floppers and all this crap will stop pretty quickly.
Anyone else think there should be consequences for flopping in College Basketball, like there is in the NHL ("diving" penalties) and pro soccer (yellow cards for extreme flopping)? Why not give Sheehey a Technical there?
Indiana University might want to forget about him, but Trey Burke is definitely still around
Oddly, the list at the bottom of the release has only 28 names, although 30 finalists were chosen.
The first name missing was that of Burke, generally considered Oladipo's biggest rival for the Big Ten Player of the Year award and a strong contender for the Naismith Award. Burke is averaging 18.9 points, 6.9 assists and just 1.8 turnovers per game while leading Michigan to No. 4 in the latest Associated Press poll.
Along with Burke, the Hoosiers also left Rotnei Clarke, a senior from nearby Butler University, off the list.
When contacted by FOXSportsDetroit.com, J.D. Campbell, Indiana's senior assistant athletic director for media relations, said that the missing names were just an oversight.
"We will get it fixed," he said. (they did btw)
Top-ranked Indiana finishes the regular season at Michigan on March 10, a game that still could decide the Big Ten championship. Their chances of winning would go up exponentially if Burke somehow ceased to exist.
Great job by Sheehey: if you put your face at a player's elbow level, it's pretty hard not to get hit. It's like the old boxing joke about "leading with your face" but he really did it.
Describing this situation with the term "flop," to me, diminishes the nature of what were talking about here. Its one thing to try and draw a conventional charge call by initiating contact and then exagerating the impact to maximize effect. It could be debated that this is "part of the game" but is usually labelled "floping." If this Sheehey play is what it appears to be (from the circumstantial evidence) this isn't a flop; its way beyond that. Its flat dirty.
This is not a regular, run-of-the-mill charge/blocking foul situation. This is about a rule that has been implemented for player safety which, if the implications are correct, was used to bail out a team in a "no hope" situation. Getting two shots and another possession was just about IU's only hope there, and the only way to accomplish that was to deliberately place a players face at elbow level of the opponent so that contact would be likely, resulting in a review and possible flagrant foul call. Furthermore, given the apptitude of some of these refs, its not exactly a shot in the dark.
The funny thing is that while I was watching the game, when this happened, everyone in the room exclaimed AT THE SAME TIME "did that dude just put his face into the guy's elbow on purpose?!?" It appeared incredibly purposeful, and the replay made it seem even more so. We were all skeptical but, I'm not going to accuse someone of something like that without more to go on.
Now you take into account the timing of the TO, the clip of what Crean appears to be doing during the TO, that this occured directly after the TO, Crean's immediate reaction to the incident (screaming for a review without a moment's hesitation) and the implications are pretty strong; not conclusive, but pretty strong.
Calling this a "flop" is a slap in the face to honest flop artists everywhere.
This is dirty, bushleague, "hurts the integrity of the game" type stuff. Again, if true...
There's this (but then they lost). And I think he drew a T when he dunked and then mouthed off against Illinois (also lost).
And I feel like there was something else that he did that was really annoying.
Though, it seems like Indiana tends to lose when he's a moron so maybe I should just embrace it.
I'm sure he said if you get hit even slightly by an elbow, elaborate it. While a little sketchy, its not really news worthy....
to hate Crean & IU.An obvious,pre-planned attempt to get a bogus flagrant foul.Fortunately the game was in The Barn or the refs may have bought the charade.
So what exactly is the replay policy here? If the replay had shown that the Minnesota player's elbow had caught Sheehey, is it an automatic foul on him even if accidental?