Did Carr Ever Recruit a Player With a Checkered Past?
Last night at the bar, I got dragged into a debate with my friend (not a Rich Rodriguez fan BTW) over the recent MSM meme of Michigan adopting a "lower standard" for football players by bring in the likes of Demar Dorsey and Justin Feagin. Exasperated, I made the case that Dorsey, while maybe somewhat risky, seems to be a kid who wants to make a fresh start and that there were no real warning signs around Feagin before he got on campus.
Further, I made the argument that Rich Rodriguez is not the first Michigan football coach who has brought in a player with a sketchy past, although I was challenged to come up with a name. The list of Michigan players under Lloyd Carr who had problems during their time at Michigan is pretty well-documented, but did Lloyd ever bring on a recruit that already had some red flags in his past and how did those players turn out?
February 21st, 2010 at 1:37 PM ^
Seems like a candidate for this subject...
February 21st, 2010 at 1:38 PM ^
Yeah, there were numerous. The key difference was that Rivals/Scout/mgoblog/facebook weren't nearly as popular while LC was coach thus fans didn't know nearly as much about the recruits as they do now. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:28 PM ^
and the fact that nobody dared mess with Lloyd in the media. One thing I wish RR would take note of.
February 21st, 2010 at 4:51 PM ^
Drew Sharp and Jim Carty gave him a hard time regularly. The big difference is that the Freep didn't then have the agenda to advance that it does now. I don't think the current crap has anything to do with what RR is or isn't doing. The Freep has decided on its own to oppose him.
February 21st, 2010 at 5:58 PM ^
Period.
What is equally remarkable, is what a bunch of followers the rest of the media is. It is really a mark of the laziness and the slovenliness of sportstalk radio, that instead of taking on the Free Press, at least for the sake of interesting and meritorious debate, that no one seems to want to take on the Free Press. It's as shameful as it is dumb.
February 21st, 2010 at 1:50 PM ^
William Peterson went to four high schools in four years. Under Carr's guidance, he lasted three whole semesters before being booted off the team, due to a combination of 1) stealing from a stripper, 2) getting into a brawl off-campus with a frat and 3) being arrested on drug-distribution charges.
February 21st, 2010 at 1:57 PM ^
In fairness to Peterson, I think I recall his dad being in the military or something and they moved frequently which was the main reason for the multiple high schools. He was always very nice, polite, and seemed very quiet in my encounters with him. Again, off the top of my head I think he got booted for being involved in some incident with a stripper in WQ and a fight with a frat. I think his issue was that class had some serious bad seeds - Jason Brooks, Demetrius Smith, Ray Jackson (I think that was his name/he was a FB), and they all lived right near each other in the dorms. I think he was more of a follower that got sucked into trouble. He went on to have a decent and stable NFL career before injury derailed it.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:09 PM ^
I had a class with him, so I got to know him a little and later learned about his history. He was a reasonably smart guy, but had a lot of issues. I'm pretty sure his school-switching in high school was purely disciplinary. And I don't think he was just a follower, or else he wouldn't have been the first of that group to be booted off the team by Carr. (And it's kind of hard to credibly claim that he was just "hanging with the wrong crowd" when, in his third brush with the law, he was the only one in the car charged with distribution - James Whitley was charged only with possession.)
It is good to see that he's seemingly gotten his life in order since leaving U-M.
February 21st, 2010 at 1:50 PM ^
Dude was a top prospect... but did he not have some issues, or was that just with qualifying
February 21st, 2010 at 1:51 PM ^
But Carr signed some tight end prospect who wound up getting expelled from UM after setting a residence hall door on fire. I also think David Bouens had some problems before he came to UM.
Then again, all this happened around '95-'96 so they may actually have been Moeller recruits.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:39 PM ^
david bouens??? i know there was a david bowens that played for michigan in the 90's...
February 21st, 2010 at 3:04 PM ^
Believe that was Damon Jones.
February 21st, 2010 at 8:11 PM ^
Yes, Damon Jones was the tight end I was thinking of.
And I apologize for the typo on David Bowens; I hope nobody was genuinely confused.
February 21st, 2010 at 1:51 PM ^
is the most glaring example but Brian Griese also got arrested while he was at UM. The fact that Carr had a tendency to answer with "no comment" to any questions regarding any players or recruits legal issues made it less of a story.
February 21st, 2010 at 3:06 PM ^
Carr wasn't nearly as open with the media as RR is. As much as I thought it would be a "breath of fresh air" to have the program be more "transparent," I think a return to the days of a more "closed" program is appropriate.
If I were RR, I would give pablum to most of the MSM and give exclusives to various bloggers and MSM writers or personalities who have proven to be at least fair to him in the past. I would be all for seeing Angelique, Sam Webb, Andrew Reid, and of course Brian Cook getting the lion's share of the information that goes out.
Let the "reporters" who continue to shit on RR in pursuit of their personal agendas print second-hand quotes, while those who have proven to be friendly or at least fair get the better interviews.
The MSM seems to think that it is the job of RR or any sports personality to be their personal whipping boys, and that any other approach is "unfair." If the MSM is going to see RR as "unfair" anyway, then let them rot while the good reporters get the good stories.
If the MSM wants things to be "fair and unbiased," let them prove they are capable of reporting it that way first. If not, let them actually work for what they get instead of it being handed to them like a welfare check.
February 21st, 2010 at 3:23 PM ^
To piggy back on what you said, it has really shocked me how bad the media rips on RR (and UM - in general) up here. At my undergrad, reporters didn't dare speak out about athletics or they risked having their press passes revoked - and several NCAA investigations were going on too! Indeed, information did get reported about some of the "transgressions," but there was a fine-line that reporters never crossed...and, if they framed their stories in a way that made the AD or coaches look bad, they simply lost the privilege to cover the athletic department.
So - my question is whether UM has a similar policy? Does the athletic department or university ever threaten to remove a journalist's press pass if they negatively or unfairly report about the school?
Based on what is being reported, I'm assuming they do not. But, I thought I would float the question...And, if they do not, has the idea ever been considered and rejected?
February 21st, 2010 at 2:02 PM ^
Lloyd recruited many players with questionable character, most recently Eugene Germany who basically got forced out of USC if you can believe that! Furthermore, Larry Harrison, ala Mr. Flash, also had issues in high school that were well known at the time of his recruitment. To suggest that Lloyd didn't take some players with shady backgrounds is just plain dishonest. This is the reason I hate the press RR is getting because he took Dorsey, it's absolutely ridiculous. I guarantee any D1 coach in the nation would have taken Dorsey, including coach Dantonio in East Lansing. This is such a non-issue it's amazing people are even talking about it. In fact, there was an article in a Florida newspaper actually making fun of people up here for making it an issue.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:52 PM ^
The Dorsey thing is plain unbelievable. At all 119 other D-1 schools he would have been taken in by the media, no questions asked. I guarantee that every coach in the country (except maybe Meyer, whatever happened with his scholly) would have taken Dorsey. The Florida newspapers should be making fun of everyone up here, the people that have made this an issue are idiots.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:27 PM ^
I read an article recently on his struggles prior to coming to UM and how his life had been turned around.
February 21st, 2010 at 9:40 PM ^
of the Michigan football program, Jason Avant's story might be the best of any that I know about.
I honestly don't remember exactly to what extent the young Jason got into trouble with the law. I do know that he came from abject poverty, and a terribly broken home situation.
As it stands now, there's scarcely a Michigan man anywhere that makes me more proud, than Jason Avant. And that's in the last five, ten, twenty or more years.
And I'm sure that Avant would be among the first to say that Michigan, and Coach Carr, and his religious faith, are among the most important things that saved his life.
And so really, the point is NOT that "Carr recruited a number of questionable guys, too..."
The point is, that not every personal story on a 125-man college football roster will ever be pure. But Michigan's stature for being a quality program, for quality kids, always was, and still is, by any measure, very solid.
And the recent complaints about Rich Rodriguez are meritless, if not fabricated, and are owing mostly to the vendetta of the Detroit Free Press. Complaints about Dorsey are just part of pattern that is going on now into its second full year. A pattern that has nothing to do with Demar Dorsey.
February 21st, 2010 at 7:52 PM ^
This has been talked about before... extensively.
EDIT: Don't understand the negs? It really has been discussed about before, many times, right after signing day and the whole Dorsey fiasco. No I don't think that RR is any worse than Carr and yes, there have been players signed by Carr with a fuzzy past. That is pretty much all there is to it.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:31 PM ^
Lloyd preferred his players be proficient at Chess. He thought that the game required a more advanced skill set for problem solving and advanced planning. Checkers was too "remedial" for him. While not denying the enjoyment the game of checkers provides, skill at chess was deemed a requirement for any LC recruit.
Wait...what?
February 21st, 2010 at 2:48 PM ^
according to the freep R.R. and staff look for recruits who are proficient at dice.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:44 PM ^
I'm sure every coach recruits players with discipline issues, whether they're aware of it or not. I was a good kid for the most part but I've also gotten away with at least a couple of things that easily could have been blown out of proportion, if I were a D1 recruit and had gotten caught.
February 21st, 2010 at 3:17 PM ^
Some of the best kids Michigan (and other schools I'm sure) have produced had backgrounds that would make one blush at the cotillion, some that may even shock. Because a number of them are dirt poor, are sometimes the only support for their families, and have broken a law or two. Doesn't make it right, but it IS a reality of their lives. Quite often that is where the talent is, so that's where you recruit. The trick is picking the good kid in a bad situation, and giving him a chance, from the bad seeds. I can think of cases of both, from kids who could marry any future daughter I may have, to those that scared ME. Lloyd had some of both varieties, and tried to redeem them all. But I won't drag anybody though the mud. I would imagine Rich will do the same thing, and if his track record HERE is any sign, when they show they're not willing to change and follow rules, they'll be gone. Just like Lloyd did. That's why the whole Dorsey thing is ridiculous. Because beyond the fact that anyone would take him, about the only thing Rich hasn't really opened himself up for criticism is how he handles discipline. He's proudly represented Michigan in that area.
Edit: and if your friend doesn't know this, he really doesn't know Michigan Football at all, and you can leave it at that.
February 21st, 2010 at 5:37 PM ^
I don't know if if had a checkered past, but he has a checkered future!
February 21st, 2010 at 6:01 PM ^
Baraka didn't have a checkered past. His first run-in with the law was after his LOI was signed.
February 21st, 2010 at 8:15 PM ^
I mean, it's a shame that he couldn't lay off the weed and it messed up (i.e., derailed) his football career, but it's not exactly a crime of moral turpitude (IMO).
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:26 AM ^
Can we please stop all the constant rationalizations over the Dorsey recruit.
Yes, it means we now have the standards of MSU or tOSU. IF you don't like that, then let's work to either get RR out or demand he recruit kids of a higher caliber (and please, spare me your faux outrage over my liberal use of words such as "caliber").
If you think these "standards" do not matter, good for you, but I disagree and think standards do matter.
But, all these ridiculous rationalizations trying to somehow show Michigan has a higher standard while somehow bringing in guys like Dorsey is now embarrassing. Let's all hope this kid does us all proud and becomes a great Michigan Man.
Heading into year 3, RR has not held up the standards of Lloyd Carr in either recruits or wins. No amount of rationalizations will change this.