Rick Leach was on with Sam Webb this morning, and he was very uncomplimentary toward Lloyd Carr. He went so far as to say that LC has flipped a huge middle finger at the program. I would relate what he said, but I wouldn't be as accurate as I'd like. Did anyone with a better memory hear what he said?
Did anyone else hear Rick Leach this morning?
the tail end of it. He was fired up about something. I'm hoping they put a podcast of it up soon.
I hope Coach Rod brings Rick in to charge up the players for at least one game this season. I'm ready to run through a brick wall for the guy.
According to Greg @MVictors, Leach thought that Lloyd sitting in a suite full of Iowa people, among a few other things, was a middle finger to the program. Leach is definitely an opinionated guy who loves Michigan, but sometimes I wonder if he doesn't say stuff like this intentionally to stir things up.
"I wonder if he doesn't say stuff like this intentionally to stir things up."
So you think a guy known for defending his program, coach and former team is really just running his mouth in order to create controversy?
That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard on these boards.
If someone offered me a seat in a box, I'd be in there too. I don't see how his argument has any merit and it does seem like he is trying to stir the pot a little bit with over-the-top claims against a former Michigan football coach.
Box seat? the guy can walk the sidelines.
stirs things up. That's what he does. He does not, nor has he ever, thought much before he speaks. That's just who he is - -take it or leave it.
He implied that Carr went to the Iowa game as a guest of someone from Iowa and that someone should investigate that and report on it.
What the hell is there to investigate?
he was calling in regards to the story about RichRod having to retract what he said about his players having the "highest GPA in team history," and that LC sitting with Iowa folks was a bigger deal than what RR did.
Like a guest of Soup Campbell, former Michigan coach on his staff? I don't see anything improper there.
how about Bump Elliot? (sp?)
The coach who preceded Bo, whom Brian (always) suggests is looking at a tasty sandwich during the Canham-Bo introductory presser.
Bump got 'promoted' to Asst. AD, not fired, and then went to Iowa as their AD. They LOVE him there, and he's still a Michigan man, through-and-through. (Don't know if he's still part of the org, or an honorary retired type.)
So, yeah. As a previous poster suggested, it seemed Rick was more on a "investigate THIS while you're at it, ya pantywaists" than ripping on LC.
When I heard Leach I thought he was impugning Lloyd, but you're right. He could just be saying that certain people are trying to take Rodriguez down, and that those people are Lloyd supporters (or supporters of the old ways) and that if the Freep were really just interested in U of M controversies they could investigate Lloyd sitting with Iowa.
you may be right but then you got the Lloyd flipping off the M program statement, which kind of undermines that view
And Leach loved Bo. And he knows that after Bo retired, he would NEVER, EVER HAVE SAT WITH THE OPPOSITION, especially in an important game. Leach has also been very outspoken about those in the program trying to sabotage RR's tenure, and that everyone should pull together for Michigan.
Maybe Leach has connected a few dots and is getting really pissed off. I'm glad he is standing up for Michigan.
I Listened to Rick Leach this morning as well. Rick started off by venting about those people with an agenda or an "axe to grind" attacking the GPA story and Rich Rod. He then went on about how Lloyd "flipped the bird" at Rich Rod by taking a trip to Iowa and hanging out with his Iowa friends. With all of these "we know who they are" references to who has been trying to sabotage Rich Rod and the program, I have taken away that it is Lloyd and his minions. Disgruntled ex-assistants and their friends like Rosenberg who supposedly is so close to one ex-assistant that they have vacationed together. If it really is Lloyd and company I wish someone would just call them out. First they torpedo Les Miles and now they want to attack Rich Rod because he doesn't fit the mold that Lloyd prefers. I am sorry, but Lloyd was just a caretaker to Bo's program and that is all he will ever be.
The Free Press article has little to do with that. At worst, somebody from the previous administration told the Free press that they never kept team GPAs so RR's claim was bogus. But we HAVE NO IDEA if that happened or not. And it's moot, because it's stupid...the Free Press still wrote the story.
PS, the Rosenberg vacationing with asst coaches thing is ludicrous. I don't know where that came from, but it's conspiracy theory from the nut-jobs in the fan-base.
Of course you don't know where it came from...
I am a 25 year alum and 36 year season ticket holder who decided to contribute a couple of things because I heard Rick Leach, and have direct personal friends in the AD. Not a nut job and not a Michigan "fan", but a Michigan Man. What was that about "pearls to swine".
I have had drinks with Bo. Have variuos high end boosters in my cell phone directory. And have sat in the same seats since the Leach days.
See, we can all say we have Insiderz bona fides.
Does not change the fact that you have offered no proof to support any of your claims other than 'look at me, I am an anonymous poster on the Internet and I am Michigan Man, so hear me roar."
This site was a lot better this morning. I'll leave it at that.
You've been going to Michigan for 25 years? Isn't it about time you graduate? Or have you not yet picked a major? What do your parents think aout this? I think you should be ashamed that you are wasting their money, smoking the pot, masturbating constantly, and not doing anything with the money they send you for college.
I bet you're one of those guys who enrolls, and sends his parents a bill for lik $34,000 and when they send the money, you run right out to the drugs pushers and the hooker pimps and blow all that money in one night, and then sleep on the floor of some friends who have a house somewhere near campus--and none of you actually GO to Michigan, but you say you do so you can get laid.
And what's this about being a 36 year season ticket holder? Did you get season tickets when you were like 11 years old? That's pretty precocious.
Why is this person still allowed to post here?
I'm starting to find his persistence kind of funny. But that's just me.
Hooker pimps are redundant man.
agree except he won a FREAKING NATIONAL TITLE!
He won more national championships than Bo ever did.
Lloyd: 6-7 in bowl games (2-3 in what can be considered BCS bowls); 75.3% overall win percentage; 77.9% conference win percentage; 5 Big 10 championships in 13 seasons.
Bo: 5-12 in bowl games (2-10 in Rose, Orange Bowls), 80.2% overall win percentage; 85.6% conference win percentage; 13 Big 10 championships in 21 seasons.
Pretty comparable, IME. You're a moron if you don't think Lloyd was a very good coach. It's not like he won that 'ship with Bo's players, either.
Lloyd has never embraced RR and never "welcomed" him into the Michigan family. Lloyd's silence during the Freep fiasco speaks volumes about where he stands.
From more than one source, including a former player under Bo, the same story emerges that there are Lloyd supporters and on the other side there are those that are willing to give RR a fair chance.
This divisiveness both within the Department and among former players has contributed to some of the negative press.
I think RR has handled it very well and has never publicly complained about the internal issues.
"Lloyd's silence during the Freep fiasco speaks volumes about where he stands."
Where does this notion come from that Lloyd needs to say something or that his silence makes him somehow complicit in the attacks against Rodriguez? The only thing his silence speaks to is that he wants to remain out of the spotlight and enjoy his retirement.
As you said, Rodriguez has handled this well with little complaint about any internal divisions. He will continue to do so, and continue to shape the program as he sees fit. Lloyd doesn't need to say anything, and Rodriguez doesn't need Lloyd to say anything. Silence does not equal culpability.
RR can handle the program himself, and Lloyd doesn't need to say anything.
I knew people were unhappy with Lloyd in his last few years, but it always seemed to be "He was a good coach but the game passed him by. I'll miss him because he was the classiest coach I've ever known"
Now it seems more like "He's trying to ruin the program" which is honestly an opinion that I never thought I'd hear.
No, I don't think RR needs Lloyd to come to his defense, or that Lloyd should say anything. BUT, if he wants to stay out of the spot light, then being in an opponents booth surely isn't the way to do it.
The only one to make note of Carr’s visit and make it an issue was Leach 5 days after the fact. No one else made a big deal of it. That’s not stepping into the spotlight. That’s putting Lloyd under a microscope.
Seems like a ton of conjecture to me.
Now, if Lloyd were to have been at the game as a guest of, say, Bump Elliott, who is a former athletic director at Iowa AND a Michigan All-American and former head coach, would Lloyd be in the wrong? Frankly, who the heck cares who he sat with? Was he wearing Iowa clothes? I bet you he wasn't. I fail to see how this is something to get worked up about.
Just because Rick Leach went on WTKA and went on the rampage doesn't mean that everything Rick Leach is saying is the Gospel truth. Rick Leach has always been about Rick Leach. This isn't new.
Lloyd Carr has more love for Michigan than probably all of us combined. He gave almost the entirety of his professional career to help build the tradition of Michigan football. He is a fine ambassador of our University, and it is disingenuous to imply that he is anti-Michigan.
But that doesn't mean:
a) we all have to (we're not sheep that blindly follow Rick Leach)...
b) it means we can somehow blame Lloyd for the Freep FOIA'ing team GPA records and writing a dumb article about it
c) it means we should blame Lloyd for the angst around the program the last few years
"we're not sheep that blindly follow Rick Leach..."
I don't blindly follow anyone. I do have a hard time with people who cite Leach's support for the team as simply "trying to stir the pot". What's his motivation other than passion for the team?
Why would people "blindly" support Carr and attack Leach? Without knowing any facts themselves, they dismiss Leach's support and bend over backwards to apologize for Carr. Lloyd's support during the maelstrom of the last two years has been passive, at best. Leach is out there throwing his reputation and support behind Michigan's current coach at every turn and somehow Rick's the troublemaker?
Some of you are far more loyal to Carr than the Michigan program.
Leach "connected the dots" in the same way that the Freep connected the dots from Sundays at Schembechler into major violations and taking advantage of the poor kids.
There are rabid M supporters and participants who can be just as close minded and irrational as the people we all criticize here. Say what you want about LC and his coaching ability the last few years, but to accuse him in that way is blind and dumb
He thinks Lloyd might be behind the Freep stuff. I posted just after you. I caught the whole thing. He said that he can't get info about his own son from the University, so where is all this insider stuff coming from.
I was shocked when I heard Leach call out Lloyd like that.
Did you see that video about how Lloyd when asked about RR his demeanor completely changed?
I'm not going to lie I'm not the biggest LC fan so I'm just going to shut my mouth and not speculate on this. I just wouldn't be surprised if this was true.
He was sitting in a box with the Iowa coaching staff. Considering he is still getting a paycheck from Michigan and has never really come out publicly in support of RichRod and the new regime. Thus, the giving the middle finger analogy. Quite frankly, Leach is three times the Michigan man that Lloyd could ever be.
Amen Maize and Blue....+1 for you.
Lloyd's silence and lack of public support for RichRod speaks volumes IMO. Not to mention this Iowa shit.
Tin foil hat wearing Scout Fucktards say ANYTHING besides "Lloyd's silence speaks volumes"--you morons literally sound like a bunch of belching 6th graders who meet once a week in someone's basement underneath a bunch of blankets propped up by couch cushions to discuss stuff like this.
Please take this garbage back to Scout or Rivals or whatever--it isn't selling here--and NO the silence of MgoBlog or Brian does not speak volumes HAHHHhHHAHAHAHAHAHALOLZ (Cue the Twilight Zone theme).
Seriously Belch, what is your problem man?
Can't we discuss the football program we all love, regardless of our differing opinions...all the while showing each other some level of respect?
Right now you are just contributing to all this bullshit conspiracy stuff and dragging Lloyd Carr into it. It's rumor mongering silliness and to be honest, though I have come to expect this kind of shit from the average Michigan fan, it is still reaching levels that embarrass even me.
Again, I am not asking you to agree with me. Everyone has an opinion, obviously.
I just think Lloyd should be more vocal PUBLICLY in supporting RichRod. That is all.
If you want to be treated with respect, perhaps you should show some to a man who worked for the school for most of his professional career, and still does to this day - and a guy that's contributed more to the school than you or I ever will. Perhaps when you start showing some, you may get some.
Not trying to disrespect Lloyd, or you, or Belch or anyone here.
It just pisses me off that Lloyd isn't more vocal publicly in supporting RR. Maybe I stated that poorly.
Lloyd has already been as supportive as he can be without being intrusive. He distains the media, and has made a point even from the time of the coaching search that he did not want an active hand in matters. He purposefully distanced himself, and it would be hypocritical to inject himself back into the mix uninvited.
Most importantly, I could not think of any advantage that would outweigh the damage that would come from Lloyd speaking out. Rodriguez is halfway through his second season. There have been charges that he cannot handle the burden and pressure associate with this program. Nonetheless, Rodriguez has handled himself admirably in the face of alleged scandal after alleged scandal, each one ending up without merit. To have Lloyd come in at this juncture would undermine all of that.
Of a lot of your posts. But the mindless parroting of the "silence speaks volumes" cliche is wearing mighty fucking thin. When all you have to indict someone is silence, you should keep your yap shut until there's something more tangible.
And gave you a +1, despite you telling me to keep my yap shut.
I think the "silence speaks volumes" cliche is pretty tired myself. I should have found a better way of articulating my point. My bad. And pretty lame.
I can call MYSELF out for a poorly written (and impulsive) post.
but that last comment is idiotic.
Rick Leach is a glorified cheerleader who is not particularly bright. He says what he says to defend his view and perception of the program.
Further, IMHO your characterization of Lloyd's conduct is way off base. Lloyd Carr said during the coaching search that if they could land RR they'd be getting the brightest young coach in the game.
Since RR was hired, Lloyd has not gotten in his way. RR said the equivalent of the cupboard was bear, etc. etc. last year. RR then ran his system offense without players suited to it. The team went 3-9 and did not go to a bowl game for the first time since, what, 1968. We have now lost to State twice in a row, another first.
There have been plenty an opportunity for Lloyd Carr to make a seemingly benign comment here or there that would have raised all kinds of problems for Rich. He has never done so.
I have no idea what Lloyd actaully thinks about RR as I have never spoken to him. I do know from years of observation that Lloyd Carr has far too much character and love for the University of Michigan to do anything which would harm it or its coach, period. Even if it has meant remaining silent about the shape of the team he left for RR or the lack of conditioning that has been inferred.
As for "in the box", etc. etc., you do recall that Mary Sue Coleman invited Kirk Ferentz to A2 to discuss potential coaching candidates at the end of Carr's tenure, right? There is, and has long been, mutual respect among the coaches of Iowa and Michigan. In fact, Ferentz himself said after the game that Michigan's got a great coach and that he'll be working his magic soon.
I don't see a problem with a coach traveling with his team to an away game and visiting a booth with a former assistant in it. It certainly doesn't make Lloyd any less of a Michigan Man. Rick Leach is a terrific cheerleader. Let's not confuse his comments with anything more than that, though.
For all of the talk, coming from RRod, of what a sorry state the program was in when he came here, LLoyd has done an admirable job in just keeping his mouth shut. For what it's worth, RRod took over a team that was returning most of it's offensive line, a 5-star QB, and a relatively stacked and deep defense. It was when RRod came aboard that a lot of the OL left, Boren transferred, Mallet transferred, and then our defense played terribly last year. For what it's worth, Lloyd has gotten really slammed for the shape the team was in last year, when, it wasn't really his fault.
I think the LLoyd bashing is a bit unwarranted.
Mallet probably would've left anyway and our D was going to play badly no matter what due to the incredibly poor coaching, player development and the lack of teaching of football fundamentals that was endemic under Carr.
Not true. Schilling and Boren were the only two returning O-lineman with any significant experience.
flinging out words like "significant experience." There are those who'd suggest that Alex Mitchell had "significant experience." Not capable. Not talented nor gifted. But he DID have experience...
letting rushing DE's through the right side, to the point where Mike Hart had to block that on-rushing lineman on Lord knows how many snaps, or Henne would have been meat.
Oh, and he had experience eating pizza as a training regimen...
So, Alex Mitchell wasn't the greatest OL to wear the maize and blue ... but, did you happen to catch our OL play last year? He certainly couldn't have hurt. Moreover, Boren, while a traitorous ass, would have been a great addition to the team. Keeping those two guys would have been big for last year. Also, I swear there another OL that took off. As for Mallet, he may have transferred anyways, but he was enrolled at Michigan and the incoming coach had a shot at keeping him.
All I'm saying is that for all the talk of the cupboard being bare, Lloyd didn't leave it THAT bare. If he wanted to, he could speak up and rebut all of the talk of how poor Michigan was when he left.
Yeah, there's that point, and Brian has rebutted the argument a few times, that teaching 5th year seniors (A. Mitchell and Grant D. or B. was the other 5th yr guy) would have just moved the steep learning curve to this year, instead of the morass which was 2008.
I'm still geeked to know that we're an incredibly young team...all those freshmen and sophomores learning and developing and growing (and eeeee Barwisizing).
Mallett was gone anyway, we didn't return most of our offensive line (not to mention the first pick in the draft), and the defense was not stacked or deep. The defense from 07 was horrid (and that was a year removed from having one of the best defenses in the nation). Yes, it returned a lot of starters, but those starters underperformed for the better part of 2 years. For what it's worth, the shape of the team wasn't all that great.
"We have now lost to State twice in a row, another first."
check your history books, state beat us 3 times in a row from '65-'67 (and pretty much owned us most of the 50's and 60's)
but it most certainly was the first time since Bo took over. As I mentioned:
The team went 3-9 and did not go to a bowl game for the first time since, what, 1968. We have now lost to State twice in a row, another first.
Maybe it wasn't clear to you, but the point was that Lloyd didn't get up and say well i lost to OSU the last 5 years, but i never led the team to consecutive losses vs. Sparty. . .
as long as Lloyd is receiving a paycheck, and hold an office at U-M, he should not be sitting with the enemy.
Dude, it's freakin' Iowa.
If you don't like Lloyd Carr sitting in an Iowa box, fine, but let's not go crazy here.
I am very proud that Lloyd Carr represents the University of Michigan and our football team. He's not a Michigan Man? This is getting nutso.
given what's gone on the past 6-12 months, RR could obviously use some support....and since lloyd doesnt open his mouth one way or another, his actions speak much louder....therefore, what would normally be a friendly visit to an opposing stadium now easily invites questions about lloyd/RR and creates more controversy....one person here has the ability to stop the controversy but so far has chosen not to....that says a lot to me.
To say that RichRod could use some support is basically saying that he can't handle the job on his own. Especially considering Carr barely liked the media when he himself was head coach, where do you even get the idea that Carr would come out and be a cheerleader for his successor?
I doubt Carr would be the cheerleader you are hoping for even if Ron English had gotten the job. If Carr really wanted to be in the spotlight, he wouldn't have retired in the first place.
The whole "action through inaction" notion is pretty weak.
i'd agree with you....however, there has been an obvious and unfair campaign from within launched from day 1 against RR...it reeks of arrogance, elitism, and nepotism - and involves certain members of the AD, alumni, and media. IME, if lloyd truly wanted whats best for the players, and M football as a whole, he would've addressed this by now. its obviously getting out of hand.
From within where? From within the athletic department? I guess it isn't as obvious to me as it is to you.
Iowa was showing class by inviting Carr to watch the game much like when Barry Alvarez was invited to watch the UW game on our sidelines.
Carr has devoted his life to Michigan. He is as much or more of a "Michigan man" than Leach or anyone else here.
Leach spouting off on the radio, regardless of good intentions, just makes everyone involved look like a fool.
I love how Rick Leach continues to make his voice heard and keeps standing up for Michigan. Time and time again he keeps going public and defending RR.
I'm glad that Leach is sticking up for the program; I just wish the program wasn't under attack to begin with.
This whole "airing of dirty laundry in the press" is bush league. Never in my life could I have guessed -- when comparing the football and basketball programs -- that football would be the drama queen.
The first thing you think of (and even YOU have to admit this) when Leach starts yammering is, "Wow, Jagerbombs this early on a Thursday? Why didn't I think of that! Thanks, Rick you're my hero!"
This was kind of funny. I chuckled. +1
And, though I disagree heartily with Shock most of the time, it's really lame to neg a post as innocuous as this one.
Rick Leach is fun to have around for the most part, because he does love the shit out of the football team. But if you think he is a better representative of the university or a more admirable person than Lloyd, you've got an odd perspective.
but I think he's pretty far out on a limb wrt alleging Carr is sabotaging RR. I know one other player who was a teammate of Leach's, and he more or less feels the same way as Rick does. I just don't believe it myself. I also don't think that even if Carr was sitting in an Iowa box that it means he's somehow giving the finger to Michigan, although I do think it's odd that he would do so.
At the time of the coaching search there were some Bo-era players who came out and made some extremely critical comments about Carr in public, so it's no secret that there's somewhat of a split among the player alumni. It's incredibly unfortunate from the perspective of the overall program, A house divided, etc etc. I don't think Leach should air this stuff in public, but from his standpoint he's defending the program he loves against unnamed individuals who are out to undermine RR. However, I do believe that there are people within the AD who are feeding info to the Freep. One poster here a few weeks ago said that all of this was not directed so much at RR but was an underground campaign waged against Bill Martin by an Athletic Dept insider who was upset with the firing of Tommy Amaker, and RR is just collateral damage. Just another internet rumor, I'd bet.
The only way to end this is for RR and Carr to meet privately and hash things out and then issue a joint statement of mutual support. I doubt that will happen because it makes too much sense.
"but from his standpoint he's defending the program he loves against unnamed individuals who are out to undermine RR"
Leach came out and named Carr specifically, "connect the dots".
Leach is becoming a cartoon figure to me, he is doing himself and M a disservice IMHO
Man, we got some pretty rouge employees in the athletic department!!
It's the mascara employees that'll get ya.
FWIW, the story goes like this: some guy formerly in the AD by the name of Stapleton, who is black, was bitter over the firing of Amaker. Then this guy was further pissed that Ron English didn't become M's first black HC. So this guy Stapleton, with help from former assistants, has been feeding the Fr--p with damaging information. No idea if this is true, but interesting that this guy is no longer in the AD.
Leach was talking about the Freep and the clarification Rodriguez gave about the team last year having the highest GPA. Evidently RR was given "an estimate" of the highest GPA, but that was not clear at the time, leading to RR statements about the highest GPA. RR posted the GPA over the locker room, etc., and set it as a goal for the team to beat, which they did. Leach called out the haters, saying they are trying to turn this positive (beating the "goal" GPA) into a negative (since we don't know if it was actaully the highest GPA). Leach said, for someone to turn this positive into a negative, they must be gunning for RR, have it out for him, and they know who those people are. I think the haters have picked a fight that they are going to regret. I didn't get the impression that he was accusing Lloyd, but shortly after the discussion above he did make the "middle finger" comments about Lloyd being a guest of Iowa.
and was behind him 100% while he coached at UM, but I knew it was time for a change. Everyone could see that his heart just wasn't in it anymore and that the game had simply passed him by.
When UM hired RR I was really excited and couldn't wait to see what he would do with the wolverines. I'm still excited and he has given me a lot of hope with the vast improvement over the last year.
If all this about Lloyd is true, I'd be disappointed, but it all sounds like speculation to me.
We have a former player (who I like as he was the QB when I became a fan) popping off about something he thinks he heard, vis a vis Llloyd sitting with Iowa......never mind that Bo (and Canham) often sat as a guest with people from another school, which is kind what you do as an AD person......and somehow this makes him a villian full of traitorous and treachery.
What a reach.
There is nothing but conjecture that Lloyd is doing anything behind the scenese to underman Rodriguez. Talk to me when there's proof and not the internet connecting the dots. Fact is, a lot of MGoBloggers dont like Lloyd and have no problem making these connections.
You people have active imaginations, you have that going for ya.
Let me guess... your one of those people who buy Rosenburg's hatchet job because he talked to 6 annonymous kids inside and outside of the program. That's believable because he is a "journalist"? Well I have talked to annonymous sources as well. No one will go on the record. Proof in these situations is impossible which only emboldens those who want to sit back and throw stones. If you don't believe that these attacks have come from Lloyd loyalists, then who is behind them? Lloyd hasn't had to leak the info himself, it is those who think they are doing him a favor. If he was truly loyal, he would put a stop to this BS. Simplest explanation... I would like to hear yours.
Come down off the ledge, man.
Did you really just cite Occam's Razor to SUPPORT your claim? What's more likely:
a) Lifelong employee of Michigan, still intimately involved with the school to the point that he gives welcome speeches to every freshman orientation group is secretly behind a cabal of mysterious alumni donor who yearn for Rodriguez's demise, no matter what the cost.
b) Former Michigan head coach visited a former employee in the box, and, as a member of the AD (someone who, you know, needs to speak to other schools) visited and sat with members of the AD of a fellow conference member.
You seriously think "A" is most likely?
You always know how to phrase your responses in a way that I wish I could.
This is exactly what I was thinking.
You were thinking, "Ebbmdj88? Bhooly froop! Zxowblarneytits andhg the bylie whiyte wid hord sccoger!?"
between two guys.
(You're a guy, right? I mean, you're posting on a football blog and you're in IOE, so I'm just playing the odds here.)
I thought this quote from you was ironic: "Proof in these situations is impossible which only emboldens those who want to sit back and throw stones"
Keep throwing stones, dickhead.
As for accusing me of being someone who believes the Freep hatchet job from the summer and the implication that I dont like Rodriguez and his program, I will let my time here on MGoBlog stand and let everyone else decide whether or not I am a true fan or not.
I really didn't know how to respond to all of this, but that pretty much sums it up.
What is more likely?
1) Lloyd was asked to help with the coaching search after he retired. He suggested several "friends" of his and former assistants. Can you blame him? These were the people he knew and the people that would run the program similar to him. Would you do anything different? He obviously felt he was running the program the "right" way when he was there.
Bill Martin took his advice, went another way, and hired RR. RR and Lloyd have no history and very little in common when it comes to running a program. RR ended up bringing a lot of his own staff to replace the current assistants. Lloyd probably wasn't happy about this, but what can he do? Because of this Lloyd has kept his distance from RR and the current team and focused on his AD job which, among many other PR-esque tasks, requires schmoozing with other AD officials at UofM sporting events. or....
2) Lloyd is so F-ing pissed that Bill Martin hired a devil from WV that axed all of his best friends, that he would "give the finger" to the program he was a part of and helped maintain for 30+ years. To do this he is gathering his "minions" to sabotage the program and school that pay his salary. Not to mention kicking dirt on the college careers of several current players that he brought to UofM. This goes directly against what Lloyd stood for during his entire career at UofM....developing men, putting the players first, character, etc. etc.
It's an easy argument to say that Lloyd should've retired when he did, but to say that he all of the sudden turned into a spineless, vindictive, traitor is way off base and ignores everything that we thought was "right" and "special" about the man in the first place.
Get a grip people...please
I think you're right on. Lloyd was bound to make a lot of friends while he was coaching at Michigan. Let him enjoy his retirement however he chooses. He deserves it. It was time for him to go when he did, and he was able to do it on his terms. Michigan doesn't need a story like this to blow up and turn into more than it is. Nothing against Leach, but the attention needs to be given to the kids that are working hard to turn the program around.
just out of curiosity, just how much power does Carr have within the AD? I mean, he doesn't have the power anymore to ruin all the positive things the program has going right now, does he?
I still haven't gotten my fucking sandwich, asshole.
But I like the anger. There's something ineffably, badassedly bitchslappy about it.
White Pony Rocks is an employee of Potbelly's who posted a rather long diary about how everyone in Ann Arbor is a rich, entitled, prick because they're on their cell-phone when he tries to get their sandwich order. He used this example to say that everyone at Michigan is unjustifiably arrogant, and will be failures for the rest of their lives.
That was a long time ago. The mystery is gone, and this becomes even funnier. Good on ya - +100 cocktails.
And WPR, be a doll: don't put so many damn onions on my Italian Night Club this time.
/Obviously, unabashedly stealing from Chitown.
I work at cosi on friday, sunday, and monday mornings. If you're gonna be assholes about it, why don't you pussies come in and let me know who you are. I'll be the one at the register.
you do not know what is going on.
It would be fairly difficult, if not impossible to find 'proof' of anything.
What is true, however, is that such a controversy (i.e. lloyd carr et al) will cause damage--deserved or undeserved.
About the only thing you can do is determine who benefits. Once you identify that, the picture tends to become a little clearer.
The Freep? Rosenburg? The disgruntled assistants who weren't good enough to get the job and are butt hurt? The African American guy (forget his name) who was pissed off because RE wasn't hired and Tommy Amaker fired?
So many options but the one thing that is definitely easy to see is that Michigan as a program suffers. Which is the most important thing to me.
Nobody on the team/staff or in the university benefits.
I don't see how Lloyd Carr benefits.
The only people who benefit from a controversy like this are UM haters.
Of which Lloyd Carr is apparently one.
But seriously, here's some things I don't understand about this conspiracy theory:
1) I thought Carr was out to get Miles. Now it turns out he's after RR, too. Who else is Carr after? Am I safe?
2) Bill Martin said he'd ask Carr's opinion before hiring a successor, to which Carr said something about not wanting to be involved. So basically, Carr potentially could have influence Bill Martin's decision back then, but decided instead to run to the FreeP later?
You look for the people who, will, you know benefit from-
I am the walrus.
[Oh, and this post is full of tinfoil dumbassery. What the hell does 'controversy (i.e. lloyd carr et al)' mean? Literally I think that's "controversy (that is Lloyd and others)" which is one e.g. of gibberish, IME. Also, as is pointed out below, I still can't figure out who is profiting from this, other than the media, in which case any discussion of either Lloyd or Leach is fairly moot.]
Unless your post was satire. In which case, 40 e-lashes for me.
EDIT: Ok, I overreacted on this one. I thought you were part of the Lloyd Conspiracy Brigade, and I flipped. I'm sure you're right in that the media has a vested interest in fanning the flames, but I don't totally see how that explains the Leach explosion. 40 e-lashes it is for me.
I respectfully disagree that simply because Lloyd was a guest of Iowa fans in their private box that it somehow means he's "giving the finger to Michigan." Right after Barry Alvarez retired as head coach of Wisconsin, Lloyd invited him to Ann Arbor when UM played UW. Barry was on the Michigan sideline for the whole game, (it was covered by ABC and the sideline reporter talked to him).
I don't recall anyone questioning Alvarez's allegiances at the time, (though there may have been some back in Madison). It was simply a nice gesture to be asked, and he accepted.
In Lloyd's case, I think its much the same. Would Bo have sat with the Iowa fans? Probably not, but I'm speculating. How many of us have attended games in other stadiums, sat with our competition's faithful throngs, and cheered for Michigan anyway? Might not Lloyd have done the same?
However he got to be the head coach at Michigan, he served as a football coach for decades, and still owes much of his livelihood to the institution. I would find it hard to believe that someone could so easily turn his back on Michigan after so long a career.
I agree with this.
It was members of the Iowa coaching staff. Which is far different then sitting with fans. Soup was on his staff but, he still collects a paycheck from Michigan and sitting within the confines of the enemy's staff is a form of treason.
I could accept him sitting with the AD, school president. ect.. but with members of the coaching staff no way in hell!
As for him leaving the cupboard bare-look at the recruiting the last couple years of Lloyd except for his final season:
2005- 1 5*, 10 4*, 11 3*, 1 2*
2006- 2 5*, 9 4*, 7 3*, 1 2*
2007- 2 5*, 5 4*, 12 3*, 1 2*
While there are 5 five stars one is Mallett who transferred and one Grady who never panned out. 4 stars from 2005 that never played for RR or didn't pan out because of injury or otherwise include Bass, Germany, Manningham, McKinney, Schifano, Slocum, and Zirbel. That doesn't leave much left for 05. Out of the 9 four stars from 2006 Boren, Kates, Mixon, and Patterson haven't panned out or left. From 2007 only 3 of the four stars(Williams, Webb, and RVB) and Warren remain out of the 7 four and five stars remain.
Starting with one returning starters on offense for an offensive coach you can understand the cupboard is bare feeling.
"as long as Lloyd is receiving a paycheck, and hold an office at U-M, he should not be sitting with the enemy."
When Bo was Ad he had John Robinson over to his house for a chicken dinner.
Is that allowed?
Or when he spent time with his best friend Woody Hayes?
When you're around coaching long enough, and then transition into administration, you're going to make friends with people from other schools. This shouldn't be that surprising.
I heard Lloyd played Skeeball with Ahmadinejad
And he told Ahmadinejad that RichRod is a bad tipper, too.
Carr made players run up and down the steps of Michigan Stadium while promising to exact revenge against Infidels. Then he took them to Chuck E Cheese. He was kinda funny like that.
I hate to break to anyone who thinks such things, but there is no such thing as an "enemy." It's a fucking football game people. This ignorance in a Michigan fan is annoying in the extreme. Jesus.
Or ND/USC fans
Or Army, Navy
Or Auburn, Alabama
Or Texas, Oklahoma
Most of these schools don't like each other, some of them flat out hate each other. I think that OSU is the enemy but hey that's just me.
is Gary Moeller, who apparently is still invited to team practices once a week, still sitting in his regular box in the old press box. And Lloyd Carr is in another box.
Look, I love Rick Leach and was his classmate. And Rick is doing a huge service to our program in defending RR. But as I look at the Freep hatchet-work by Michael Rosenberg, I don't see any evidence of "insider information" being leaked to support this series of attack-articles. Rosenberg has been able to write this garbage without any apparent input from Carr or anybody else. Indeed, I'd worry a lot more if any of these stories had the credible backing of someone like a Lloyd Carr making specific charges. But that's the garbage part of everything that Rosenberg has done! Rosenberg has got nothing so good. Rosenberg doesn't have any anonymous quotes that might be attributable to Lloyd Carr! All that Rosenberg has are things like the ambush interviews with the freshmen at media day, or the dubious exit interviews with anonymous ex-players.
Like all of you, I see evidence of Lloyd Carr's antipathy. But I don't see evidence of any real subversion.
I think it is actually giving too much credence to the garbage-sucker Rosenberg to link him too closely with Carr.
That's all that Lloyd has to do. But he says nothing. I respect his desire to stay out of the way. But there comes a time when silence becomes a detriment.
All of this speculation would go away immediately. All Lloyd would need to do is say something positive about RR, the program, etc.
Lloyd is tremendously respected has a broad reaching level of credibility. That only futher exacerbates the need for him to speak up. At least Leach has the balls to say something and be heard. As crazy as his rants might be. He is standing up and being counted.
Just step up and say something Lloyd. If the Michigan head coach was not RR and one "his" guys (DeBord, English, etc.) there is NO WAY he would be silent.
Just my opinion....
Look, I agree with you that Lloyd saying, "Our team is showing great progress, I'm impressed with what Rich has done over the last year." would calm a lot of people down (whether these "people" deserve calming down is another argument).
BUT, how do we know that Lloyd and RR speak on occasion and RR has asked that Lloyd let the current players and staff handle this one? Maybe RR doesn't want Lloyd making a statement because it sounds like RR and the current team need Lloyd to take the pressure off...
This is speculation, but isn't this whole thread? The point is we know nothing of the RR/Lloyd relationship.
I for one think that it is best for the new regime to take care of this themselves. Just like letting you kids grow up and figure some things out for themselves.
but he doesnt even have to come out publicly and say it. I don't know all the inside details but I am sure he attends games and what not. I mean you think a reporter or someone would ask him about "retirement", the program etc and he would say something. But if I remember correctly he has been asked and kind of pleaded the fifth.
Sit on the sidelines, let Holly Rowe or whoever ask, Hey Lloyd, how's it going and how do you think the team looks?
Well Holly I think RR is doing great etc. They are 4-1 what a stupid question you dumb bitch. (I kid I kid)
You tell me this hasn't happened over the 2 years? 1.5 years of games? He doesn't need to hold presser. Look I hate speculating and love Carr and respect him and what he did. It just seems like he is going out of his way to not say anything. It just seem like a scenario like this would be bound to happen and hasnt. Shit every time an old player is on the sideline it seems like they ask them.
And I dont know Carr, if he attends, where he sits and all that. But dont you just think he would be asked?
I'd bet my house that if English/one of his friends go the job he would be much much more vocal and supportive from an outsiders perspective.
Everyone is claiming Lloyds silence was proof he hated RR. Now he sits in a box and Iowa and its PROOF! he hates RR. So Rosenberg comes up with an article that states the tried to get records through FOIA and can't because there are no records, and somehow this is the FOR SURE PROOF! that Lloyd hates RR and is being the mole that will get RR out.
Look people, Lloyd stated he would not be involved in the hiring process, he said he would only give the information he was asked for. It his number one goal to stay out of everyones hair and let the new coach be the coach. So when Lloyd isnt around in the new coaches business somehow this is Lloyd behind the scenes as a puppet master? It makes no sense. He said he wouldn't talk. He said he wouldn't be at practice. He Isn't talking and he isnt at practice and now everyone wants to read into it way too much.
Also fwiw. There was an interview with Lloyd before the season started asking him what he is up to with his time off. He was quoted about going to the Iowa game, and going to MNF. This is before the season and before the practice drama. Obviously he had plans to go. And all this "ENEMY" talk. It's stupid. Lloyd has friends. It would be like someone from this blog getting beer with a blogger from Iowa. And he is old and it was super cold. Where do you want the man to sit?
You reference the article that I just spent about 10 minutes trying to find. Carr said he's been to every Michigan home game, a couple of NFL games, and that he'd probably hit up the Iowa game.
Let me guess - when he attends Michigan games, he still brings his headset and whispers bad plays into RichRod's ears, right?
i am glad the intertubes were not around with Texas A&M tried to throw that million dollars at Bo.
And, dudes, do any of you remember Bo coming to Moeller's rescue when old Gary went bananas? So, Bo must have been undermining Gary, right?
Good point, Bo was all but gone, credit our boy Tom Monaghan with saving the day.
Its just not Lloyd's style to talk about stuff. The guy would never talk about things when he was coach and it was his job. I don't know why everyone thinks he is going to change now that it is not his responsibility.
If I remember what Bo said/wrote in "Lasting Lessons", he was in Mexico when the Moeller Affair broke and he was trying to get a call to Gary to tell him to hold fast and, if nothing else, not resign
ed, they could figure this out when he got back. But by that point, Moeller had resigned.
There is a LOT more to this story than has been put out there. The ball was dropped in about 4 or 5 different places at once, and it turned into a gigantic fiasco.
And Gary Moeller has now forever been branded as a hapless drunk, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
Details? Or not the venue?
Joe Roberson gave Moeller the option of resigning or being fired. Holding fast really wasn't a possibility.
4000th point for ya ftw!
The real force was Pres. Duderstat who wanted academics to take back control of powerful athletics (which points he made on many a Knight commission after he was pushed out himself). He was trying to do things that would make this board really pissed. And he was a lousy president too.
"At least Leach has the balls to say something and be heard. As crazy as his rants might be. He is standing up and being counted."
At this point I discount what Leach is spewing, Leach comes across as the one with the axe to grind
didn't Rick Leach get kicked out of MLB for a drug problem?
He went AWOL from his team for a weekend during a coke bender, bounced around the league with a raging drug problem for a couple years, then got suspended for a couple months and sent to rehab.
i know this was a while ago, but how does this guy have so much credibility?
Has a ton of credibility with the Retired Left Handed Quarterbacks Association of America (Newfoundland Chapter).
sell newspapers benefit from this.
heck, certain blog sites even benefit from this...
is lloyd's job description at UM? I havn't heard one good thing he has done since he started in his new position.
Podcast is now up:
Lloyd has never been close with the media. So we expect him to suddenly change that and call a press conference to say "I support Rich"?
Why isn't he talking? Because he hates the media? Because he hates RR? Because RR asked him to stay out of it? Because Bill Martin asked him to stay out of it? Because he just wants to stay out of it?
Why was Carr in the Iowa box? Because he has friends in the box? Because he hates RR? Which one makes more sense?
What about Rick Leach? Why is he talking so much? I appreciate his support of RR. I'm sure RR appreciates his support. But will anything good come out of accusing Lloyd Carr of anything? The only thing it could possibly do is cause a divide in the fanase, right when the fans need to come together to support the team the most.
you don't go on the radio and talk about stuff. This is why Lloyd never talks. You say one thing and it blows up. So and so said this. You can't add fuel to the fire. Everyone was pissed there was no comment after practice gate. If you dont talk then its over, done. The media forgets about it and everone moves on. If you say one thing, even in support, the story gets legs and is on front pages for another day. It's just not worth it and I think Lloyd learned that a long time ago.
Hopefully this blows over quickly as well, because this is something that has the ability to seriously divide the fan base, and could cause long term damage to the program.
the game this saturday.
meet at the Eagle biatches! We'll see who is right!
The other thread was deleted so we can discuss this in one thread.
Sorry if that move offended anyone. It's hard to keep up with two conversations that are exactly the same.
So, let's carry on here, ok. Thanks
I like Rick Leach and all that, but I have the feeling his imagination is taking a few things too far. I was also happy to see Lloyd replaced by RR, and am excited for the future of the football team. Carr did the best he could his way, and now I sense he is letting RR do things in his own way. So, if Lloyd is staying out of RR's way, and that's what I expect based on Lloyd's personality also, I am not surprised he hasn't come out publicly defending RR. First because that's his personality, and second, if Lloyd is indeed keeping his nose out of RR's business, how can he know for sure that the team didn't violate any NCAA rules (for example). Bottom line, while I don't exclude the possibility of somebody within the AD trying to undermine RR, I can't imagine Lloyd being involved in such a thing. And it's fine if Rick Leach supports this team with all his soul, but he doesn't need to fight any battles for RR because I'm sure he can manage things himself. Actually, this might hurt RR. He is close friends with Rick Leach, and if unsupported accusations are made, it will seem like Ricky is being RR's spokesperson. I wish people will stop fighting, whether it's forum members here, alumni, or people within the AD. We know RR has Martin's support for now, and he will have the necessary time to establish his system here. Let's just sit back, relax, and watch how RR does.
This thread, and Rick Leach on the radio this morning, is proof of another instance where sometimes there are just too many fora for people to say stupid shit about the football team you love.
Let Lloyd do what he wants. Rich Rod runs the team now. Anything that gets in the way of me watching the boys on Saturday is useless. I was in Iowa City Saturday, and Lloyd being in a luxury box while I froze my testes off had no effect on my enjoyment of watching my favorite team take a veteran, highly ranked team to within 30 yards of a loss.
And despite the whining here today, my enjoyment of the game, and this team, will not change. Now stop it and focus on what's important - the game. By arguing like this, you're just giving the Freep a reason to write another assfaced column, and giving Rick Leach a reason to go run off at the mouth at WTKA next week.
Good for Rick. I'm not sure if Lloyd is to blame for sitting with Iowa people at the game, but I do think he is to blame for the Les Miles fiasco and for not being more publicly supportive of RR. Even if I hated RR, I would support him unconditionally because he is running the program that I love so dearly. To me, undermining RR is one of the stupidest things a person can do. Its counter productive.
I heard Leach's comments this morning and found the whole thing troubling.
He sounded a little loopy, saying that someone needs to investigate why Carr was in an Iowa box. As many have posted, who cares where Lloyd sits or if he has friends at Iowa? It was a game, not war, and it's not "treason" for Lloyd to "fraternize with the enemy."
He also sounds a little paranoid about leaks from within the program. I haven't read Rosenberg's article, and I wont. But it sounds like he put in a FOIA request for records of the "average team GPA" for past seasons and found out there weren't any. That doesn't mean that someone's minions are leaking information. But Leach sees a campaign against Rodriguez, and he seems to want to implicate Carr in that campaign.
Maybe he's right. But he should have a lot of very clear evidence of that before dropping innuendoes. And he should present the evidence when he makes his charges. It's kind of crappy for him to say, "there are bad people out there who have it in for Coach, and they will get their due in the end." That sort of thing creates hysteria and dissention about Carr and unnamed others, which is the same kind of conduct that bothers him when Rodriguez is the victim of it.
I think there probably are a lot of people in the Athletic Department and elsewhere who have it in for Rodriguez. It seems likely that some of them are Lloyd loyalists. But that does not mean that Lloyd is behind an anti-Rodriguez campaign. Or that Lloyd deserves to be condemned for where he sits at a road game.
It was also crappy for Webb to take that call from Leach and then not follow up with a question or two, asking Leach to say more about what he was talking about. If an ordinary caller dropped bombs like that, Webb would ask for proof or say that the caller shouldn't make unsubstantiated charges. Leach should not be exempted from that standard.
Except one thing - Leach didn't actually make any "charges". He simply asked the Freep to start being more fair, albeit with a pretty lame example of how to start. So, I do agree the innuendos were terrible.
I heard the entire Leach call and it is not the first time that he has sounded anti-Carr. If he is correct or not about LC, I don't know, but he shouldn't be talking like that if he doesn't have proof. Later in the program WTKA had a lawyer guest (don't remember his name) who stated that he has talked to LC several times and he is very supportive of RR and the program. I think LC is a class act and I have always felt that he has remained silent out of wisdom. He knows that anything he says can and will be somehow twisted around to sound like criticism of RR. It is a can't win situation. If I were LC I would have also taken the silent approach and if I were RR I would be glad that the previous coach is keeping silent and behind the scenes.
While I was of the opinion it was time for Lloyd to retire, I have never thought he was anything but a class act and a true Michigan man. After all the years and time he has given to the program, I find it difficult to believe,whether he likes Rich Rod or not, that he would put the players in any type of compromising position, including trying to sabotage the head coach. If Lloyd were to go public on these issues, Rosen-puke and his cohorts at the freep would twist it negatively and have a field day. This is Rich Rod's program now, and Lloyd is doing the right thing by staying behind the scenes.
Has anybody actually FOUND the article that Leach referenced?
I can't find it.
Leach spoke to my class last year, and it was clear he personally has an axe to grind with Lloyd Carr. However, you have to love that he is defending Rich Rodriguez as much as he can- he has a ton of faith in what RR can do here.
First, some basic facts, some which are obvious and some which are not:
1. There are people - powerful people - behind the scenes working to sabotage Rich Rodriguez as UM's head coach, for a variety of reasons.
2. The finger has almost universally been pointed at Jim Stapleton, and there is plenty of motive and opportunity on his part. He was critical of Bill Martin when Amaker was fired, his wife is a Free Press employee, and he is conveniently a regent at the university that employs one of the men that got turned down for the UM job and was not retained by RR.
3. An insider at one of the premium sites basically said in no uncertain terms last week that Ron English was responsible for connecting several of the "anonymous players" to Rosenberg to help the hit piece.
4. The Freep's FOIA request into the academic/GPA issue was very specific, to the point where one can't help but wonder, "What made them ask for that? Why did they think it was something to look closer at?"
5. There have been a couple people in the last few days, whose credibility I cannot attest to, who basically echoed what Rick Leach said today before he said it, that Lloyd Carr is part of this conspiracy (honestly, there is no better word for it at this point). There really is no way for this to be proven, and as I said, I don't have a clue about any sort of credibility these people have.
6. Per one of the insiders whose word IS pretty close to gospel, the wheels are in motion to strike back against the Free Press, using methods that don't involve simply unsubscribing and protesting their advertisers.
Overall, I appreciate what Rick Leach is trying to do. It's time to stop sitting back and taking this shit and fight back, but sooner or later names will have to be named. Leach going on the radio and ranting about Lloyd Carr sitting with Iowa people in Iowa City doesn't really help our side at all, it just stoops Leach down to the level of the people who are gunning for Rodriguez and Martin - throwing around serious allegations without proof isn't going to win this battle.
#5- if you can't attest to it, why spread it further?
#6 - what do you think they're going to do? I'm all for it, but I'm curious.
And tired of people insinuating stuff, but never coming out and saying it. Say it, and we'll see if the person is right or not.
I'm just a guy; my opinion is no more valid than anyone else's. So allow me to make it abundantly clear that it is merely my opinion when I say that anyone revoking Lloyd Carr's Michigan Man status or declaring him treasonous or assigning him blame for Rich Rodriguez's victimization by the Freep's hatchet job is a fucking piece of shit. I don't know what more on God's green fucking earth you want out of the man who gave Michigan football its classy, reputable, intelligent, learned reputation, and, not to mention, delivered a national championship and five Big Ten championships.
I don't know what Lloyd Carr thinks of Rich Rodriguez. Neither does Rick Leach. All I know is that Lloyd Carr spent 27 years at the University of Michigan and one evening in an Iowa luxury box.
More authoritative then I would've been...but yeah.
Goddamn right, good sir. Once again, if you want to look to Rick Leach as an example of Michigan's values instead of Lloyd Carr, you're a dumbass.
He can do whatever he damn well pleases. He's is not obligated to publicly support Rich Rodriguez at all if he doesn't want to. Who knows, he may support Rodriguez in secret. It's a free country last I checked. His days of meeting UM football fan expectations are over and it sounds to me like even Rick Leach forgets this.
Christ, I certainly don't want people publicly criticizing me for the crazy crap I get invited to after I retire. Go fishing, read volumes of Rudyard Kipling, hang out at the UM student union, visit with friends at an Iowa football game - whatever floats Lloyd's boat he can and should do.
I just hope he's enjoying his life now away from the merciless grind of college football. He probably is.
LC is one of those guys you really don't need to try and make seem more complicated than he is.
- He's the Asst AD at UM.
- He's friends with Kirk Ferentz (presuambly this is not a crime)
- It's a Iowa/UM game, at night
- It's a veritable social event.
Leave the guy alone. Sheesh.
Martin is turning a profit on the football program at U of M, which, in turn, is financing all of the other athletic programs. He isn't going anywhere anytime soon, nor is his choice as coach, RR, conspiracy or no conspiracy. But, expect the muckraking to continue because it sounds to me as if some powerful people are still smarting over the fact that they did not get their choice named as head football coach. And, power corrupts.
WHY IS EVERYONE YELLING?
I heard Lloyd Carr had bags banned from Michigan Stadium just because "he didn't like the way they looked at him."
Folks, this is nothing more than a mole hill, all the way around.
The initial focus of Leach's phone call was on Freep's insistence on taking a positive thing and spinning it into a negative, and even fabricating information (how do you pull GPAs from 18 yr old students?) to make their point.
I believe the Carr reference was Leach's way of saying hey, there are other stories out there to spin that would put Carr in the negative light, instead of RR and his staff. The implication is that Freep is specifically looking for RR stories, and not UM Football stories (not that they should look for LC material - Carr is obviously less relevant).
The bigger question today has become "Is Carr part of the conspiracy to undermine the success of RR?".
Now that's just ludicrous. That would mean Carr is willingly putting himself in an incredibly dangeruos position with his employer, and even border on charges libel, whether criminal or civil. I really can't imagine Carr being that reckless or stupid.
For the most part I'm proud of this board, and how they don't take rantings, even from a fondly remembered player, as truth, and are reasonable and use logic, and am beeming on how most have responded in this thread.
Rick Leach obviously doesn't like Lloyd Carr. To the point that he will slander him left and right. I imagine Carr didn't bow at his feet and welcome him back with open arms, because he probably felt that a loudmouth who's primary free activity was coke and hookers probably wasn't the best influence for young student athletes. But that's speculating. But at least I'll come out and say it. Leach is a coward for coming out and insinuating things, but not spelling out the who what where when, because he either has nothing or is afraid of backlash and getting sued. He was a great player, and it's nice that Rich Rod has let him into his circle and he's backing Rich, but he needs to shut up, and the forums (radio, etc) have to stop giving him a voice, because he's an embarrassment to the U.
Lloyd Carr was a better man than most of could even hope to be. You didn't like him as a football coach? Fine. You liked him but had problems with some things? Fine. You can disect the X's and O's all you want. Heck, he did things that I even shook my head at sometimes. If you think he was awful and was no good at coaching, well, it shows you probably don't really pay attention to how college football works. But if you wanted to do something different, or thought things could be better, I have no problem with your view, that's your perogative. But all this stuff attacking his character is ridiculous, and anyone writing it should be ashamed, but probably aren't, because they don't have the character of the person they're attacking.
If you love Rich, that's good, because there's a lot to like. You prefer football now to yesteryear, that's your choice, and it can be valid. But people who think Lloyd some evil Emperor pulling strings to do harm to the University that he gave everything to for like 25 years with a lot of people attacking him and asking for his head in return, you don't know the man. And you're really doing things no better than the Free Press everyone has rightly attacked, taking certain situations, leaving stuff out, and painting it in the worst light possible.
Get a grip. People were doing good things at Michigan before Rich, and will be doing good things after he's gone. Hopefully after 20-some years of successful coaching. Stop trying to justify your "FIRE LLOYD NOW" mentality. Leave the man alone. He's given more to Michigan than you or I ever will. He deserves that much.
Boutros' post was more direct, but this one was more eloquent and complete. Wonderfully put.
So Lloyd was at Iowa as a guest of Iowa and their coaching staff alone? hmmmm....
yeah that is a middle finger flip and its not cool... Leach knows whats going on. Fk Lloyd. He is supposed to be an associate AD and that is not Cool. Fk him.
I'm not sure if this is a joke or not ...
EDIT: I just saw your comment below. It's apparently not a joke Congratulations! You have the critical thinking skills and perspective of a 13 year-old. I sincerely hope you aren't in a position to make decisions that affect the lives of many people around you (best case scenario: you're actually 13.)
Oh, and if you wanna say "fuck Lloyd" show some fucking stones and say "fuck Lloyd." You'll still be a dipshit, but a marginally less pathetic one.
oh an internet tough guy...lol... well since you are accusing someone of being 13 years old...perhaps you may want to look at your own words...since your comments and profanity are more along the lines of a 12 year old, so perhaps in that light you are correct when they come from a 12 year old's perspective.
...perhaps you may want to look at your own words...since your comments and profanity are more along the lines of a 12 year old, so perhaps in that light you are correct when they come from a 12 year old's perspective.
You're aware that you demanded Lloyd be "fucked" twice in your 20 word post, right? Taking out the "u" doesn't really soften it.
I got myself into a lather, and didn't post with the most grace imaginable.
But still, you're an asshole (as grown adults, we can use these words, even with the vowels) for this caveman "with us or against us" bullshit you're throwing at Lloyd - all because he sat in the damn visitor's box at the Iowa game. If you really think this way, I stand by my statement that you're thinking like someone with hormonal imbalances and a lack of life experience.
EDIT: Also this,
"since your comments and profanity are more along the lines of a 12 year old, so perhaps in that light you are correct when they come from a 12 year old's perspective."
... doesn't make any sense. The best I can get out of it is "I'm rubber and you're glue - boing-thwap."
Nice personal attack. It shows more about your lack of character than anything else.
Again, you wanna play internet tough guy...feel free. Calling people names and just trying to stir shit up is just a losers way of going about making your argument.
Nice personal attack. It shows more about your lack of character than anything else.
Again, you wanna play internet tough guy...feel free. Calling people names and just trying to stir shit up is just a losers way of going about making your argument.
Just 56 minutes earlier:
So Lloyd was at Iowa as a guest of Iowa and their coaching staff alone? hmmmm....
yeah that is a middle finger flip and its not cool... Leach knows whats going on. Fk Lloyd. He is supposed to be an associate AD and that is not Cool. Fk him.
Out of curiousity - Leach said he "read somewhere". Where? Can anyone actually produce the piece of writing that documents this story?
There was an article out of Georgia a few weeks ago where they interviewed Carr and he said that he was going to be at the Iowa game.
When I read that, I assumed that he would be there to support Michigan in his capacity as an Associate AD, still on the payroll for hundreds of thousands of $$ at Michigan.
Apparently, if what Leach said is true...then Lloyd was there on the Iowa side of things.
That would indicate that Carr had this trip scheduled weeks in advance and he knew that he was going to be with the Iowa people all along...still not cool.
It was a clear mistake by Carr from both a support for the program, his employment, as well as potential public relations debacle (which is now is)
IMO, Bill Martin should talk with Carr and ask him which side he is going to support...or ask him to move on and no longer be on the payroll if he is going to take that flip flop point of view.
You understand that memebers of AD's need to speak to each other, right? And that Lloyd is close friends with Ferentz? And likely friends with Campbell, his former employee? I don't see what the BFD is.
It's crazy that people will suddenly call into question the loyalty of a man that spent nearly his entire professional career at UM, chose to stay at the school rather than ride off into the sunset, and still remains active at the school. He's given more to Michigan than you or I ever will.
Again: Lloyd planned this trip for weeks according to that Georgia article. He apparently chose to sit with the Iowa people. He works for UM, is a former UM coach obviously. It was a dumb decision to do this if it is indeed true. Very dumb. It shows a lack of support for the current regime, undermines his own capacity as a UM athletic dept. employee, and opens his actions up for a huge Public Relations Gaffe...which this now is, like it or not.
Say what you want, but this is the end result of Lloyd Carr's trip to Iowa. And...it comes at a time when the new regime is getting bullets fired at from all kinds of irrational directions. Not cool.