Yeah cause when I go to a message board I expect CLASS and JBE is punching people and twisting their necks. The horror.
frank beamer #1
Yeah cause when I go to a message board I expect CLASS and JBE is punching people and twisting their necks. The horror.
You're forgetting that. He made poor decisions, didn't hit his throws well either and doesn't run as well as Denard.
He's going to be good, but the kid is still really green.
Denard had a horrible day, but like others have said, this is against the best front 7--and arguably best defense--we're currently scheduled to face all year.
The backup qb is always a fan favorite if a team has some offense struggles.
Why not have Gardner in to throw and Denard at running back, he could be Barry Sanders like
you have to think about the mental impact to denard ...while I don't know if he would necessarily transferI think doing so would have a demoralizing impact. the risk is that you would negatively impact denards play and that gardner would prove to be not ready...after considering the risks I think that the coaches are taking the most prudent approach.
While I personally don't think it's time for Gardner to be the first-string QB, people here need to be able to discuss things without constantly flying off the handle, making ad hominem attacks and such.
I agree, Denard should have done much better with no running game to support him, a full on blitz which saw him running for his figurative life (maybe literal life given MSU thuggery). Also, obviously Denard's fault that he didn't properly mind meld Smith into making the right adjustment on the int.
Denard failed to make the quick reads against the blitz and failed to scramble, his best attribute, when the lanes were there. I don't know that DG is the answer, but putting Denard at tailback would certainly solve our other big problem in the backfield. And before you say that Denard couldn't handle the beating, our it's the lines fault the RB's don't gain yards. Denard already, before yesterday, runs the ball 20-25 times a game and he already runs the power play for good yards with the same line.
I love Denard, but it is not the winds fault when you overthrow your receivers by 10 yards...in Evanston.
That puts our best 11 on the field and I think Devin would be very effective running the zone read with Denard...it would open up the playbook. Can you imagine a screen to Denard?
Well, it comes down to which QB Hoke thinks has the higher ceiling. If it's Devin, then it's worth some growing-pains to get him there.
First, Michigan had only 67 attempts offensively on Saturday to get something done.
It was pretty balanced too: 36 rushing and 31 passing.
Borges did what he could to keep MSU's defense honest by throwing more. Not a bad idea given the Spartans shitty secondary.
I don't really care about all this unnecessary roughness stuff. That just sounds like a bunch of cry-babies who don't get their way. This is football, not golf. Besides, I'm sure the Big Ten and upcoming opponents of MSU will do their part to make sure this doesn't happen anymore. MSU can play like that if they want, but they should cry when players have to sit out against Wisconsin next week.
Narduzzi had MSU ready to play and they recruited talented players over the last few years. Time to recognize that fact.
Lastly, Michigan had 250 yards of total offense on Saturday. Denard personally contributed to 165 of those yards gained. Nobody else stepped up. Receivers dropped passes and the running backs did nothing special to contribute.
If you think Denard Robinson should be sat down in favor of Devin Gardner, who contributed only 30 positive yards in 13 attempts, then I think you need to be admitted to a mental institution.
Sorry, but there's nothing in the sample of Michigan's measly 67 offensive attempts that supports your argument.
Granted fans don't have enough evidence to say Gardner should play, but Denard has been making people cringe with his passes for awhile now. The loss just opened the door for people to say what they have been thinking. People tend to stay quiet after a win, although some people have touched on it.
the bye week, and install Navy's triple option.
The fourth and one play call was not a bad one i seem to remember us succeding with that call. It was just a very good defensive call by state
I don't know. I do know we aren't going to win a lot of big ten games with Denard playing QB.
My take? Try it out, at least. We have a bye week, why not spend it by letting Devin get used to the first teamers and let Denard try out RB? If it doesn't work against Purdue, we can go back to Denard at QB, and we can still walk away with a win.
I, like a lot of others aroud here, had a knee jerk downvote reaction to this post, but give it some thought. Devin is the better passer at this point, and Denard at RB would be DEADLY! Can you imagine Devin & Denard in the backfield at the same time, with 4 WRs? How the hell do you defend that?
Edit: Just think of all the stuff you could do with a RB like that! You could run pitch plays with a pass option, and have by far the most deadly wildcat package. The list goes on...
Also, I know true dual threat QBs open up the pass, but MSU showed that you can easily beat a Denard led offense by stacking the box and going 1 on 1 with all the WRs, knowing that he cant beat you with his arm. I think having a better passer in at QB would open up the run, which would in turn help the pass, etc etc.
Who is saying bench Denard? Everyone is saying move him around. He can play multiple positions. Seriously did no one on here watch Percy Harvin play? Kid ran the wildcat at QB, threw it a few times, was a runningback, and played wideout. Why could we not use Denard like that? Why would we sit Denard Robinson on the bench? There are still ways to get him the football 20 times a game not at QB.
Yes Denard made up most of our total offense, that's because the offense is made to work around his skills.
If your intent is to not start a shit storm of rage, then you should stick to posts about the RichRod era. We like those.
I think it's probably appropriate to consider the whole picture when talking about the game yesterday. There was a hugely significant wind that made it tough to pass as well as some questionable playcalling in terms of pass vs. run given the circumstances. Also, M kept giving a play-action fake that wound up getting Denard immediate pressure because MSU didn't have to respect the fake. Couple that with the lack of a bubble screen, mind boggling at this point, no draws or screens, (Unfortunately I don't think the middle screen is a good option at this point given Denard's accuracy issues, perhaps the play to Koger they showed against NW) it's hard to completely fault Denard.
Obviously he will never be a great passer. I don't know many passers who are great when faced with constant pressure and high winds. I get as pissed as anyone when he air mails throws, but I'm not ready to give up on him at QB and toss a rs freshman out there. Denard was a 1st team All-American last year. I think they just need to keep working on some easier throws and run the damn ball more, (O-line issues aside, agree with Brian that zone blocking seems to be their forte, remember when Omameh was supposed to be the next great lineman?). All these things aside, they need to find a running back. I like Fitz but he has yet to break a tackle on the second level. I like V. Smith blocking and catching passes and occasionally mixing in the run. However, you see a lot of teams with backs who can get to the second level and turn 4 into 11 or 14. M lacks that. I'd try Rawls. Mainly because I thought, line problems aside, Fitz and Smith both struggled breaking gains against NW. You have to give someone else a chance, and we all know Shaw's bounce game. Lond post aside, keep Denard, run more, shorten throws, zone block, Rawls. It's easier to coach from my computer.
It's Denard's first year learning the new offense. It's also probably the first time anyone ever bothered to coach him on his technique, timing, throwing mechanics and footwork.
If Gardner had it all in place in terms of these things, then he would be the starter already. Both quarterbacks are still learning to execute this offense.
But it's a major strategic mistake anyway to put the game all on one player. See Tate Forcier in 2009 Michigan team. Michigan needs playmakers all around, especially in the running game. Michigan's running backs have not done enough to help this offense and release the pressure off Denard.
its one thing learning the offense, but learning how to pass is different. Denard is not a qb. he's been playing qb since he was probably 10 years old, and still can't make a simple pass to a moving Target besides slants. Denard is still a great football player, but sorry, a qb has to be able to make the throws. like I said b4 opponents laugh and joke about Denard when he throws. sure he threw for a lot of yards against northwestern, but who cant? I'm sure by the end of the season the coaches will insert Devin for the better of the team. you can already see, they r doing it slowly. go blue!
Really was there a need to bring up anyone coaches from last year? Lets state a simple fact right now...the Qb coach from last year had Denard completing passes at a 63% clip.....that is not even close this year.
With Denard, the defense can move up to contain him and stop the run.
Once the run is stopped, Denard can't pass worth beans against good defenses.
His lack of passing skills is going to continue to cost our team wins against good defenses.
Denard has demonstarted he won't adjust to the mechanics he must adapt to be a better passer.
I would not put Denard in as a back or receiver. I would sit him on the bench as the best back-up quarterback available.
I think Devin's passing skills will back the defenses off, taking pressure off our offensive line, and let the running backs have better lanes.
You would put our only playmaker on the bench?!!...hmmmm
DG will be a great QB for us down the road, but until we can team him with an effective running game, it won't work out. At least Denard self-generates something of a running game.
Until we have an effective running game, it won't matter if Tom Brady is the starter.
have you heard of passing to set up the run?
Yeah I think its time honestly. Denard could be just like a Dexter Mcluster type player. He could be way better in my opinion doing so many different things offensively and even defensively... Denard off the edge like a CB on a blitz to hurry the QB, Lol. Anything is possible with a guy like Denard. I think its time to make the change to maximize the teams potential for the year, Denards, and Devins.
I am sure this has been mention in this thread. I honestly haven't read the entire thing, but Devin needs his share of coaching up as well.But as someone who was at the game,he missed a guy streaking down the middle of the field with nobody within 15 yards of him twice. I am not sure Devin is the magic wand that everyone expects him to be quite yet.
Yes, Denard has gotten M to 6-1. So that apparently means he should continue to take virtually all the snaps at QB for the rest of the season. Fine. After Purdue, when M will be 7-1, M faces four teams that at least know how to play some semblance of defense. The DCs of those teams will have studied the MSU game film. They too will cram 8–9 in the box and dare Denard to beat them with his arm which, given his track record thus far, he will not be able to do.
The result will be 2010 all over again --- INTs, a pick 6 or two, defense on the field too long and too often, zero rushing attack, Denard knocked out of games sometime in the early fourth quarter, and an inexperienced Gardner taking his place. M beats either Illinois or Iowa, loses to Nebraska and Ohio, and ends up 8-4 rather than last year’s 7-5 (before the bowl game). Progress of a sort, maybe.
As presently configured, this one-dimensional offense has little chance of putting up enough points to defeat a good D. The time has come to consider seriously a change in the offensive game plan that puts Devin and Denard on the field almost all the time, with Devin doing most of the throwing and Denard doing the receiving and running. The result might not be better than 8-4, but it least such a configuration has the possibility of improving on that record, whereas the current configuration does not.
Beating Purdue is not a given. IF we are way ahead then we can experiment. Let's worry about winning it first.
Our running backs don't do a whole lot. Pulling Denard essentially means quitting running unless you want both of our non freshman scholarship QB's constantly taking hits. Also, Devin was not exactly stellar yesterday.
I find this whole foofaraw amusing and ridiculous, but not because it somehow shouldn't be discussed.
Here's what's amusing and ridiculous: doesn't it seem like this is the sort of conversation Hoke and Borges probably had several times in the spring? I mean, have some humility. And what they concluded is that Denard should learn Borges's pro-style offense, which they to some degree tried to implement for Western and ND, and to some degree have scrapped in favor of Borges-Denard fusion.
So think about it: when they thought they were going to implement the mostly pro-style offense, they decided Denard was better at it. Now that they have moved to elements of the spread n' shred attack, they have still decided Denard is better. Why exactly do we think Devin would be better at the hybrid when the coaches have already decided that he isn't even better to run the pro-style?
My view: if Denard > Devin at the pro-style and Denard is having trouble with the pro-style elements of the offense, then the offense should be tailored even more to Denard's strengths. Which would involve the outside zone read and the bubble screen, I think. I mean, Cousins didn't exactly set the world on fire yesterday, but he had a competent running attack to rely on. I think Borges needs to tweak the running game and the passing game to give Denard some easier throws that he has demonstrated he can make.
i cringe every time denard goes under center. we have consitently moved the ball when we reverted back to spread-style.
Quickest way to negative points? Mention that you don't think Denard is a quality option at QB.
how could the big 10 player of the year (at QB) possibly be a quality QB?
Denard is an exceptional athlete but a good/great QB he is not. IMO, he is actually throwing the ball worse than last year, so he's regressing. He doesn't play well under center. His ball fakes on passes are nonexistent. And as the announcers pointed out 10x yesterday, he doesn't plant his foot when he throws, throwing so high it makes Henne's throws look almost catchable.
Almost all gifted athletes can play QB. But can they make the throws that need to be made to win a championship? Can they read blitzes and coverages that need to be made to win a championship? At this stage and after 20 games as a starter, Denard has proven he can't do the things he needs to do to win a championship. Is it all him? No. But the QB position is the most important position on the field. He will continue on at QB, I have no doubt, but his mistakes will hurt the team and cause a few more losses when he's in a winable games.
For this reason, I think Devin should be our QB. For the type of offense Hoke and Borges want to run, he is the answer. And in 2 years, Morris even more so. Use Denard as a wideout, flanker, RB, but scratch the QB position. He'll never win against the tough teams in the B1G the day he plays now.
Denard is obviously the best RB on this team.
Devin is a more accurate passer, this was confirmed by Hoke yesterday. Sure, Devin may not have shown this in game but consider how much more experience with reads and how much more practice Denard has with the extra year as a college QB and approaching his eigth likely start as a second year starter. Devin can also run the ball, he may not be bottled lightning but he's a good mobile spread QB.
As Urban Meyer said, if Devin is one of the best 11 players on the field then they need to get him out there. Obviously Devin is good enough that the coaching staff feels he needs to be out there as much as he was yesterday (quite a lot for a backup QB with an uninjured starting QB).
Denard can take 20-25 carries (his valued asset and we dont need to worry about him getting too banged up to throw), handle blocks (yes, he's had some good ones), throw in some trick plays, and allow our better passer to handle the passing duties. this still plays to the team strengths because Devin was recruited to run the spread.
We are in the middle of a spread/pro style hybrid year. Why not have our highly rated more accurate yet still athletic QB in at QB and put the best RB in as an actual RB.
I was ready to send you to Bolivia when I read the title. But after reading the post, while I disagree with your conclusion, you made your case reasonably and without malice. Well done.
Brian doesn't have to go far for TWIS material this week.
There's no reason Denard can't be used all around the field. Can someone also explain to me why we didn't run one screen yesterday?
As I see it, Denard lacks the patience and timing skills that a screen play requires from the QB.
I'm a bit tired of our stupid spread offense being shut down against every single good defense we've played over the last 3.5 years. Against what good defense has it actually done well? We put up 500 yards on crap teams and Notre Dame and then get reamed against any big ten team with a pulse
My guess is that Saturday wasn't an anomaly, that as the season goes on we'll start to see more of a mix of the two, both because Denard won't be quite as healthy and Hoke has more than hinted DG is a better thrower. This is like Ohio a few years back, where Pryor split time as he developed and whatever-his-name-was appeared to be a much better thrower. This may not be a bad thing, because it gives teams more to think about when planning for us. But, I think the play where DG missed the wide-open Hopkins shows that he still isn't necessarily ready for the starting gig on his own.
Next fall is going to be a real interesting situation. Just think though, at least now we are debating DG vs. Denard instead of Threet vs. Sheridan. Remember 2008...or don't...
DG isn't ready. He has a decent arm, but he doesn't see the whole field. There were at least two throws yesterday that he made to covered receivers when there was someone else wide open.
This thread is fucking stupid. Was it the stepping 3 yds over the line of scrimmage Before throwing the ball or the missing a wide open roundtree for a Td that made you post this. Denard didn't play well yesterday. But he's the mother fucking reigning B10 offensive player of the year. What have you seen that says that DG should start.
but the coaches are obviously grooming him,
Bingo. It really doesn't matter one bit what we think or say about this issue. Only Hoke's opinion has weight.
The coaches obviously can't come out and say it, but their actions speak louder than words. They know they want Gardener as QB. They are preparing him for the transition and it would also appear that they are preparing Denard for his future as a faster Desmond at the same time.
Speaking of which, I am sure Desmond could have done a decent job as QB back in the day (he was the most athletic guy on the team) but the team was better with him as WR & kick returner.
I would rather see one more W in our W/L column rather than having a B1G player of the year in my team. At this point, Denard had enough opportunities to prove himself at QB. Coaches know that, which is why they let Devin take snaps.
I didn't read the OP, or any comments, but want to say when you have a player that can take it to the house on any play, he needs to be on the field.