this may be of some local interest
Not a bad interview. She didn't just lob up softballs but asked a few pertinent questions.
If I need to talk to Al, which I did last week (against Indiana) regarding we needed points and we’re going to have to take every possession and try and stick it in the end zone and how we would do that, we had that discussion.
Please have this discussion every game from now on.
I don't really understand how else that discussion could go unless you're up by 40.
Well, there may be times when you want to methodically move it up the field, in 10-15 yard chunks, to give the defense breathing room. Against IU in the second half we forgot about ball control and aired it out, which meant a ton of points but also not much rest for the D. Note that in the first half, when we were more methodical and gave the D more rest time, IU's offense wasn't nearly as potent.
Yeah, but if you're moving the ball up the field in 10-15 yard chunks you can still score. The only scenarios while the game is still up in the air where the mentallity isn't to score that I can think of is if you're backed up against your goal line or you're trying to drain the clock.
But I don't think that's what Hoke was referring to. I think he was telling Borges to go for the home run opportunities to get as many points as we can.
observation; I have seen no one else note this. I just hope that MSU didn't gain too much confidence this afternoon, because I remained pretty optimistic about our D until then. . . they really managed to distribute the ball.
except you forgot how horrific ILL is.. I was calling out almost every play MSU was doing.. specially 3rd down, almost every throw was late over the middle and no ILL defender was within 5-10 yards.. what a joke.
He genuinely believes "Our pass rush IS better" and there have only been three or four play calls by Borges he's disagreed with over the past three years.
Now that is a bit scary.
has dictated the philosophy Borges uses. This is why I've been so frustrated with people calling for Borges' head and willfully ignoring that Hoke is the boss.
And again, I say this as someone who has come to like the guy enormously.
The major problem here i think is Hoke, not Borges. This year make me think about RR's era in defensive side of ball. Try to implement a phylosophy that the team is not ready for by the end of fallcamp, and try to hope that it will improve through the season, but didn't workout. The only difference is probably Hoke at least knowledge it and try to adjust now.
I think Hoke has a lot of influence in game planing before the game, (i.e. run setup pass, how many running/passing %, formation sets), but he's lack of ability to tell Borgers to adjust in game is obvious as a HC. Particularly, on all road game, Hoke and Co. are not good at winning, I don't even remember he has beaten any ranked team on the road (not nutrual site) in the past 2.5 years.
at Ball State and SDSU ?
At Ball State, he had Nate Davis and they were a high powered offense. They lived and died with the pass. He was Coach of the Year in the MAC and they almost beat Michigan when they played.
I do not believe Hoke is a micro-manager. He trusts his coaches to develop a solid game plan, but there are times when a coach doesn't perform - just like times when players fail to make a play. Head coaches may have a offensive or defensive "specialty" (Hoke coaches the defensive line) ... but they cannot do everything.
The fact is there are times when coaches fail and FAIL miserably. For example when Sparty lost the ND game, pucker, pucker, pucker (the Mike Valenti rant) and for Michigan it was Penn State game this year.
Last year after 7 games we had posted 9 sacks and 3 QB hits. This year we've posted 16 sacks and 19 QB hits. Interceptions (which are at least marginally related to pressure) are up as well (11 this year as opposed to 6 at the same time a year ago).
Come on, stop bringing facts into the discussion.
And the other thing is that pass rushing in general is down in college football. QBs are better and better at getting rid of the ball quickly, and the proliferation of packaged plays, hot reads and the like make blitzing more of a gamble than ever.
Haven't been on the site much recently, but it's nice to see a fairly bland interview with the head coach posted without comment turn into a shitshow of a thread full of mountains of idiocy.
It's like the good old days around here. Well done, sir.
But on a Saturday night I thought this thread was good for maybe 14 posts. It was a pat coach-speak/media-question interview. Sometimes this place surprises me.
How are you not concerned after reading this? He sounds like a coach without a clue whats going on. Really? the D-line has gotten better?? anybody that has watched Michigan with a pulse can see that this entire defense has regressed.
And I'd venture to say the entire TEAM has regressed. Call it youth, call it growing up: I just don't call it Michigan football.
Come on, the whole team has regressed? You think Gardner isn't a better player now than he was a month ago? How about the WRs? Gallon and Funchess are regressing? The OL is harder to gauge but it's not worse than it was against Akron or UConn.
On D, well, coming off the Indiana game they look bad, but they've had a good year overall. I think we have a shortage of playmakers and Mattison is accordingly calling a very conservative game to protect them, but I don't think they're worse than they were in September.
You know, regressed to 6-1 (should be 7-0 if our kicker tees it up from his former gimme range).
It's debatable. Then again maybe I just expected this Michigan team to be better than "average," and now I'm just bitter that we are still average 3 years later. That could be it as well.
Did we lose today?
You're playing FEELINGSBALL. The pass rush HAS gotten better, and we have an increase in sacks of this time last year to show for it. I don't think he ever said we would be a top pressure team, and to expect that after having next to no pass rush at all last season was folly.
Emotions have completely destroyed the morale of this fan base post Akron. This blog is of the SABR cloth. All objective measures say we've been pretty good in all aspects. Better than "average". It might feel like the team has regressed, but it hasn't.
The offensive line, however, is shit.
Let's all remind ourselves of all the injuries we've had. Clearly they are having an impact on the team. However, to say that the whole team has regressed is just wrong.
In terms of units, I would say the offense, defense, and special teams are all worse than last year. Which unit do you think is the same or better?
I'd argue that the offense has improved over last years unit.
We are scoring more per game, 42.4 to 28.9.
We are gaining more yards, 446.4 to 383.1.
Everyone will agree our passing game has improved drastically. Just to give some numbers, 262 PY/G, 1.9 TD/G, 61% completion compared to 199 PY/G, 1.5 TD/G, 53% completion. This doesn't highlight receiver production, but Gallon and Funchess are both better than last year.
All this with a dreadful line. The offense, believe it or not, has progressed.
Special teams have regressed.
I'm still on the fence about the defense. Numbers show that they have regressed, but if you want to go by unit, there has been some improvement. The pass rush has produced more sacks. Interceptions are up. I think by the end of the year, when we add in the numbers from the pedestrian offenses of State and Iowa, the defense will be very comparable to last year's. We'll see.
What are you doing here, using logic and shit.
i like you.
Are you comparing last year's offense through all of its games (including games against MSU, Nebraksa, Iowa and Ohio State) to this year's offense through the first half of the season? You might want to revisit those stats for 2013 at the end of this year...
Our offensive stats are better right now than they were after 7 games last year. But last year's first 7 games included Alabama, MSU and a Notre Dame game played on the road, so take that with a grain of salt.
That said, I do think our offense is arguably better this year than last year in the ability-to-produce-yards/points production department. Unfortunately, aside from last year's Notre Dame game, our turnovers have been more destructive this year. Three games that could have been comfortable wins (ND, Akron and UCONN) were all close calls because of turnovers. Turnovers also played a huge role (14 points) in our one loss.
Of course you are correct. But its just a quick and dirty way of seeing where we're at right now. If the offense is bad from here on out, people could have a case to say we've regressed. But as of now, they don't, because as the numbers show, we haven't.
Hey, remember when you predicted indiana would blow us out?
Yeah, he was probably really disappointed watching that game b/c his negative Nancy comments wouldn't be taken as seriously this week.
Coachspeak versus the Grand Delusion. I can't say I know what the difference is here... Come on, Brady.
put it to him pretty plainly.
I just think M fans have to take a longer view. Hoke's not going anywhere and neither is Borges. We really won't know much until next year. Screaming now is just pissing in the wind, maybe what the internet's for but. . .
I got piss all over my new jeans one day so I just sit back now and watch.
I thought Morris wasn't eligible for a RS anymore... or is she leaving open the possibility that they do it next year?
I think he's only played in three games, and all in the first half of the season, so if he gets some kind of injury, they might be able to get him a medical shirt.
Morris played one snap against Penn State when Gardner's helmet came off.
Yes, but that was week 6 - still the first half of the season. My understanding is that you can play under 30% of the games, and only in the first half of the season, to get the shirt.
Nope. It's not about # of games, it's about when you play them. If you play in the 5th game of the season or later, you can't get a medical redshirt. So there is literally no possible way Morris can redshirt this season, even if he does get an "injury".
I still don't understand why people continue to get this wrong. Including Angelique. If you play a single snap -- whether its the first snap of the seaon or the last snap of the season on offense, defense, or special teams, that counts as one of your four seasons you get to play. There is no gray area, its very black and white rule.
The rules for medical redshirts are a bit murkier and are done on a case by case basis and handled by the individual conferences. But I really doubt Morris has any sort of claim for a medial redshirt.
I kind of interpreted it as a next year thing, although I might have been reading too much into it. But realistically, with Gardner back, and having a few other QB's on the roster, Morris could redshirt next year.
He played against Central too. Threw 6 passes.
I'm getting tired of the deferent answers. "Oh, I dunno." "Ask someone else."
No, you're the head honcho; you're the one getting paid the most; everything comes from YOU. Answer a damn question. If you can't, you better find an answer quick. You better be damn well aware of everything going on in the program. If you aren't, then I dunno if I really want you leading it.
Do you want him to throw people under the bus? I think he knows the answers to these questions but he's not going to badmouth his players or assistants.
I don't think he was saying he needs to throw someone under the bus. The problem is, not only does coach Hoke sound like he doesn't know whats going on, but all to often he looks like it on the sideline; and furthermore, his team has looked like a team with zero answers to many times this year. I don't care if its in house or out, he better find some answers quick because if he drop this game next week it wont be pretty. like it or not all questions are answered on Saturday, everything you need to know.
How hard is it to note how Devin has improved? Improved footwork? Mechanics maybe? Making better reads? What is it? Something technique? Intangible? O-Line protection? Lower quality defenses? Deferring does you nothing. You better know how your quarterback is progressing and be able to articulate that. Dunno what the problem is, but Hoke is making himself look like an ass by choosing not to answer.
interview overall for Hoke. I like that he didn't throw anyone under the bus though. Too much of that stuff went on behind the scenes in the RRod years. I give this staff credit though. Their teams fight and battle every game. There is no quit when facing adversity. Again, this happened frequently under RRod.
...about getting thrown under the bus in Ann Arbor...
YOU SEE HOW THAT WORKS?!?
For those that feel that this team is not getting better or that feel the coaching staff is not capable of getting UM back to elite status, then maybe you need to find other thngs to spend time on besides watching Wolverine football.
We were set back so far in three years it takes time to recover. The mess that took three years to create, may take 4 - 5 years to recover from.
I love you
Do you really believe that this team is where you thought they would be before the season started? before they ever played a game this year where you sitting back saying its OK if they're bad because were on this 5 year master plan to getting back? if not then save the whole find another team bit.
I thought we would be 7-0 and we're 6-1. We still have a shot at 10-2/11-1. MSU and Nebraska have been equally as up and down as we have been.
And Nebraska's coach is about to fired and being thrown under the bus by former players . . . So, not a great comparison.
It's just amazing to me that in year three, Nick Saban could win a title with his elite recruits... and we (with great recruits) can't beat Akron by more than three points.
I get that you're mad right now and all that, but Bo Pelini has been at Nebraska six years, so it's definitely not a good comparison. Hoke is only in his third year here, but he's already had a better season (2011) than Pelini has ever had. Pelini has never finished a season with fewer than four losses.
And Saban, like him or not, is the best coach in the country. Every other coach in the country looks bad compared to him.
You must know things the general public does not! As to whether Bo Pelini will be fired, or not, that greatly depends on the month of November. However, I don't think there has ever been a former player who has ever done anything publicly other than fall all over themselves praising him.
It's hard to take your opinion about November being his determinant when you are incredibly wrong about former player's an Bo Pelini
I believe his "falling all over themselves praising him" line was in reference to HOKE'S relationships with former players, which is a valid point. Obviously, Pelini has his issues and this line was meant to show some contrast, but wasn't stated as clearly as it could be.
But I think it's safe to say Bo Pelini would need to win out to satisfy Nebraska's fan base/administration. They expected to be a championship contender this year with Martinez and Abdullah back.
Go read Tommie Frazier's tweet yesterday: "Need I Say More????" For them, that's basically the equivalent of Charles Woodson saying: "Hey Dave, let's fire Brady Hoke." Would be tough to overcome if you ask me.
and thought you were referring to Bo Pelini's former players and was referring to his former players, not all former Nebraska players. As far as I know, to a man, his former players do "fall all over themselves" to have his back. In regards to Tommie Frazier...yes he was considered a great player, however, there is a large portion of the Nebraska fan base ( I would even say a vast majority) who have no use for him/his personality since he hung up his cleats. I have even heard a former teammate say, in effect, "Everyone wanted him in the huddle, no one wanted him in the locker room!" In essence, the national media has grabbed onto his comments and tried to make them relevant, whereas, here in Nebraska the response is more along the lines of "he just needs to shut up!" There are many reasons that fan sentiment has turned on him, and he has one huge reason to hate on Pelini: his cousin Brion Carnes originally committed to WKU, decommitted and came to Nebraska to play QB. Tommie was always mad that he sat behind Martinez, and Carnes ended up transferring to UNI. Your original post said "former players"; give me another example (other than Tommie) and I will give you full credit.
As to November being the decision maker on Pelini, if they go 5-0 or 4-1 (poss even 3-2) and there are no bad losses (think Wisky and Ohio from last year or UCLA this year) Pelini will be back.
Also, if recent post stating Nebraska fans/admin were expecting to compete for championships, was referring to B1G, I would say you are correct. That goal would still be intact, especially if they are 5-0 or 4-1 in November. However, Nebraska fans knew they were still going to have some potential issues on defense. In that regard they are just like us with our O-line. We knew there could be some issues, we just never knew/hoped they wouldn't be as bad/glaring as what has been manifested this season.
I don't think that Hoke v. Saban is a fair comparison. You have to consider the environment in which this occured. I did a little research. The 2009 Alabama team had nine starters Saban inherited from Shula. Six of whom were eventually drafted by the NFL. The 2009 Alabama team also started two transfers. A quick look shows 2013 M has about the same number of non-Hoke recruited starters, but no way that group has 6 NFL draftees. Add in the benefits of over-signing, forcing kids onto medical scholarships and access to JuCo transfers that are present at Alabama to a much greater extent and Saban had a much better situation wrt ability to win earlier.
Old Soviet joke:
Moscow, 1953. Stalin calls in Khrushchev.
"Niki, I'm dying. Don't have much to leave you. Just three envelopes. Open them, one at a time, when you get into big trouble."
A few years later, first crisis. Khrushchev opens envelope 1: "Blame everything on me. Uncle Joe."
A few years later, a really big crisis. Opens envelope 2: "Blame everything on me. Again. Good luck, Uncle Joe."
Third crisis. Opens envelope 3: "Prepare three envelopes."
Courtesy of Charles Krauthammer, who didn't invent this oldest of old proverbs, at TownHall.
Back to Ann Arbor: we are, this fall, exactly four years removed from the disastrous set-up of Michigan for an NCAA investigation that put our head football coach's job in jeopardy and wrecked our recruiting for many, many months. That was the recruiting class of 2010; our current upperclassmen.
Hoke's winning percentage at Michigan is higher than Lloyd Carr's, Gary Moeller's, and the last decade under Bo.
If he does any better in the future he'll be the top coach in program history. If he does any worse I wonder how people will manage to blame it all on Rich Rodriguez.
Hoke's winning percentage at Michigan is higher than Lloyd Carr's, Gary Moeller's, and the last decade under Bo.
This is an important point. Many fans have the idea that we should expect to win 85-90% of our games, but that is not realistic. Our all-time winning percentage, over 134 seasons, is .735 - and that's the best in the country.
What I would accept from this program - and which I think is reasonable - is for us to win 8+ games every year, with a Big Ten title every few years (now that there can only be one Big Ten champion, it's tougher) and BCS bowl appearances about half the time. We should be able to make the four-team playoff a couple of times a decade.
Doesn't explain inexplicable game plans that result in losses to significantly inferior opponents (Iowa 2011, PSU 2013) and nearly losing to Akron. Doesn't explain repeatedly trying to institute offensive schemes that our personnel can't run before reverting, out of desperation, to schemes we are quite effective at.
We don't have the talent and experience to be a top 5 program, but we should be a 7-0 team.
college football when in fact they are quite common. EVERY team loses to teams they shouldn't. That's college football.
who would agree tonight.
Stanford lost to Utah. They should be undefeated. LSU lost to Ol Miss. Alabama has won two national titles losing a game they obviously shouldn't have. Shit happens.
Yes, I'm "freaking out" over one game by expressing anything short of unbridled enthusiasm and blind praise for the coaching staff. Thanks for your straw man argument and insightful addition to this conversation.
While we only lost one, which was lost by the coaches, we also essentially won on a coin flip outcome to one of the worst teams in FBS, had a dogfight with another one, and were thoroughly unprepared for IU's spread.
Meanwhile, we are on something like offense iteration #29 and our fourth LG. What did we do all fall?
thank you...the readers on this blog were singing Hoke's praises a couple months ago and we all expected a team with some youth problems on the interior...now we've gone insane because we've missed a few field goals.
the team has improved since the debacles against uconn and akron. Hoke is a good coach. He turned 2 perennial losers into winners, it took a few years, but he did it by recruiting and coaching up players. We are seeing flashes of brillance from the players at times.....it will come together.
Nick Saban went 8-4, 10-3, 8-5 before going 13-1 in year 4 at LSU. We had so little elite talent when Hoke got here, and we are basically in year 1.5 of the pro offense. Give it a little time or we will be in the shitter again. Do you want to be the next Notre Dame!? Constantly turning over coaches?
Also, do you expect to win 3/4 NCs like bama? really? We are just jealous the media isn't slobbering over our coach and our program lie they do SEC schools and Oregon. Hoke has the same record that Lloyd had his first 3 years to this point with less talent overall. Give me a break.
The posts on this blog have gone to RCMB levels since the Penn State game.
"Also, do you expect to win 3/4 NCs like bama? really?" I don't think most people realistically see that. I think most people want to be mentioned in the same breath as OSU as we have been for 60+ years. We have not realistically been in the same conversation since 2007 and we wont next year. So 2015 will mean its been 9 years since the 2 teams are on even footing and that assumes all this talent being hauled in gets developed. I have more confidence of that happening on the defensive side of the ball but the absolute lack of OL development from any younger guys is troubling. That said, most of them should still be on the bench sitting behind a RS Junior or whatever but it is what it is. We'll know in 2015 if this is the right coaching staff. They have 1.25 years on the clock.
THIS JUST IN:
We have not, on fact, played Ohio State this year.
Just because you believe we will lose does not make it so. A win this year makes us 2-1 in Hoke's tenure. It would also get a lot of press and we would probably be "mentioned in the same breath as OSU as we have been for 60+ years."
Jesus Christ, man. Get a hold of yourself and stop playing FEELINGSBALL.
Not remember the train wreck that was RR? Has Ohio had a train wreck of a coach? No, it is going to take a couple more years for our RS Freshman, Freshman, and he'll, even Sophomores to legitimately be on the same level as Ohio. That doesn't mean we can't beat them. I swear, I don't think people fully understand the fire and lack of depth Hoke had coming into this. His first year included a decent amount of upperclassmen, this resulted in a BCS win. Some of you sound like the fucking stupid ass spartan fan I got an email from this morning basically saying how their lines are FAR superior than ours and that next weekend would be a LONG weekend for us in BEAST Lansing. Fuck State! Hoke will get the ship turned around.
Thoughtful criticism is needed. Criticism out of context is unhelpful and just trolling. Thanks for this!
losing to Akron and UConn too, who both have been nothing but suck otherwise. And oh, are you watching the OSU/PSU game?
we arent as good as OSU yet....this isn't news...plus Hackenburg has 100,000 fans that want him to fail in this game. I understand the offensive woes we had, but it isn't like we tried to manball IU all game....hopefully Borges builds momentum off that game.
Also, college football is weird...you won't always win by as many points as you should. Ask OSU in 2011-2012
trust me..im a much bigger UM fan than a Hoke fan, and i do get frustrated with him as much as anyone, but the guy deserves time and he is much better than what we had before. I believe he will make adjustments this year. Please dont drive UM to become the next Notre Dame, we are on the right track and acquiring talent. Things are never as good (i.e. OSU tonight) or as bad as they seem (our debacles this year)
sorry for trolling against popular opinion around here. UM will be okay.
"For those that feel that this team is not getting better or that feel the coaching staff is not capable of getting UM back to elite status, then maybe you need to find other thngs to spend time on besides watching Wolverine football."
I'm not sure ANY coaching staff is capable of getting Michigan back to elite status.
Not sure how much is hubris or how much is delusion, but either way I think we're in trouble in the long run with this guy at the helm.
This team isn't where it needs to be, but to say UM is "in trouble" when their recruiting classes are outstanding, they have beaten all three of UM's rivals in their first 2 and some years, and they have every resource possible needed to make UM an elite program.
As fans, I think we can all agree that we want to be elite, to be in the national conversation every year and to win championships.
I just don't see that happening three years into this project. We have regressed. We're recruiting great? Outstanding. There's a big difference between building relationships with kids in order to get them to commit and putting them in a position to succeed once they're here.
Just don't see the latter coming to fruition under the Hoke/Borges Manball Reich.
Anyone who makes judgments on the future on an inchoate program is a person who so consumed by arrogance that they cannot see the absurdity of their statement,
Oregon got to where they are with a decade of program development by Bellotti and Kelly. Bama had a fairly easy transtion as Schula left the Tide with players who could play the schemes Saban desired.
UM meanwhile is having to transition to a Al Davis-style offense(run, run, bomb) with a physical, aggressive defense without the requsiite experienced players needed to do so.
And the reference to Nazism is fucking stupid. Get a grip.
You do realize you make the exact kinds of judgments you are criticizing in this post in other parts of this thread when discussing Hoke's predecessor?
and we went 15-22, 8-16 in conference, were ranked 117 team defense, and clearly gave up in multiple games. Hokes teams have done none of the above
We all know Coach Hoke has a better record here than Rich Rodriguez did. He got to coach a much better team out of the gate and almost certainly won't get fired when his players are freshmen and sophomores so we'll get a chance to fairly evaluate his tenure in the next few years. Rich Rodriguez also has a much better record at Arizona than he did here. And he had loads of success at WVU. And Michigan has been as good or better than at any point in the last 30+ years with the players he brought in and Hoke has gotten to coach. What does a 13-7 record at Arizona compared with a 8-16 record at Michigan tell you about how good a coach someone is?
The OP said we can't judge Hoke because it is too soon in his tenure, but he is/was happy to do the same about another coach. That makes him a hypocrite and kind of an idiot. You chiming in with your opinion that Rich Rodriguez deserved to get fired because his overall record at Michigan wasn't very good (a painfully original thought) is not really helpful or relevant to that fact.
It was even worse than that - RichRod actually went 6-18 in league play here - 2-6, 1-7 and 3-5. That is just mind-blowing to think about.
There is some real cognitive dissonance going on here on the part of some people who somehow pine for RichRod. The team under his direction was hideously bad by any standard here, but somehow they will rationalize that while taking Hoke to task even though he's done vastly better. Hoke currently is 14-5 in B1G play (6-2, 6-2 and 2-1).
I'm not sure we're going to be in big trouble but I don't think we're going to be current Alabama/Oregon/Stanford good. Or previous USC/Texas good. I think at best we'll have our occasional 2006 season sprinkled in between a bunch of 2-4 loss seasons, couple of Rose Bowl trips -- maybe we win, maybe we won't.
I basically think his ceiling is Lloyd Carr without 1997 and maybe fewer losses against OSU (depending on how long Meyer is there and who replaces him when he leaves/who our coach is).
I know we like to make fun of ND a lot on this site but it seems like we've been returning to glory since 1997. All this talk of 'wait until 2015 when we'll be good' is pretty depressing. Wait until year 5 of a coach's tenure until we might be competing for titles?
I'm not sure how you can make a judgement on how good we'll be based on 2 and a half years and we still have a good shot at a big ten title game this year. Imagine what people would have said about Belein 2 and a half years into his tenure. I imagine people would have said that we would be lucky to get past the sweet 16 and Izzo would wipe the floor with him.
It just doesn't feel right. Nothing about this season does. I'd need to see a strong closing to the regular season with wins against MSU and OSU and a decent bowl win to think otherwise.
I don't think the Beilen comparison is applicable. This is Michigan football -- we shouldn't be hoping to maybe be in title contention conversation in year 5 of a coaching regime. The shambles the BBall program was in in comparison to the football program when Hoke took over are nowhere the near the same.
When one side of the ball has been completel decimated by poor coaching and recruiting--which the defense was under RR--it then stands to reason that it will take years to overhaul said neglected unit.
Guys, all objective measures point to the fact that our team is pretty good, it has been pretty good since this staff got here, and that this is a pretty good staff.
I legitimately feel for you as a fan. It must suck to look at these promising facts and see doom.
But (and I know you didn't say this, but I don't want to create 2 replies), to say Michigan is in big trouble under this coach, whose record is 25-8 after the worst three year stretch in this great program's history is absolutely fucking insane. It is a heinous act of barbarity against logic, reason, thought, cognition, the miraculous human brain, synapses, electricity, carbon, life, and God.
They lost to a Utah team that is now 1-4 in the Pac 12. Last year they lost to a 7-6 Washington team and needed OT to beat 8-5 Arizona. Blowing one road game under fairly flukey circumstances (final drive for PSU and 3 missed FG) doesn't put us behind them.
The fact is, we haven't been Alabama/Oregon good since before you could watch the team on TV.
Stanford has been a better program for a few years now. I use them as an example because of the success they've had in running a similar offense.
And similar academics so "no excuses" there about hard to get players into the program. In two of the past 7 classes they have had recruiting classes ranked 50th or worse... and only 1 in the top 10. Stanford is a good model right now - unfortunately we are at the point we are saying it about Stanford rather Stanford saying UM is a good model to follow.
I'd venture to say academics at Stanford are more stringent even for football players than at Michigan.
p.s. no one is saying Stanford is good over the long run or even intermediate run - this run has only been since 2009. But they have been a "near elite" program since.
Blowing one fluky game a year is acceptable. That happens across all of college football. You marry it with 1 legitimate loss and you have a lot of 11-2 seasons. Go look back the past 20 years and tell me how many teams UM has fielded with 2 losses or less. Answer: It's not a good answer.
People are freaking out because we lost to PSU and the OP cited Stanford as the type of team we should aspire to be, when they are essentially in the exact same boat we are in this year and were in the same boat last year until they pulled the upset against Oregon (for the first time in a few years).
I'm right there with you when it comes to our fanbases overinflated sense of our recent (i.e. last 50+ years) history.
I think its more than PSU. I think its playing down to Akron and UConn - two teams Central Florida destroyed by like 30 points a game. Now some of that was on Devin alone as he had turnovers in both games that gave very short fields. But whatever the case. I think right now people still look at the jersey and not the players. We lack difference makers outside of 1 WR, 1 QB, and maybe 1 corner. JMFR is the other but hurt. A lot of other players are nice role players or nice effective players like Desmon Morgan but we lack the talent of the older teams (who also unfortunately underachieved under Carr post 2000). We are just not there for whatever the reason - OSU is there... people mock them for close wins but they win. We'll see what the next 5 weeks brings... this is the type of team that can win any of those games and lose any of those games.
The only difference is that Stanford would would kick our asses up and down the field.
We're in year 3.
I think this comment touches on something a lot of us Michigan fans really want to ignore. Michigan has a grand total of 11 national championships and only one of those those was after President Truman was in office. Michigan only has 8 Rose Bowl wins. Much of the lore behind Michigan comes from a intra-regional rivalry... not national dominance.
We let our expectations get away from us based on a miscalculation of how we preceive the Michigan brand (and not brand in the way Brandon thinks about it).
I believe this team can be great and fun to watch and deserving of our passion. We just need to check where our preception of where it should be is coming from.
9-3 in perpetuity?
When you keep going back to what got you there, what do you expect?
Which is more than Michigan's all time leading win percentage.
9-3 would be a 75% winning percentage. No program is that good. Not even ours, the winningest in history.
But if we average something close to that, I'm sure we'll win a few national titles. Something like 11 in any given century. We'll win quite a few conference championships, too. Hell, we will probably have more than anyone else.
In short, you are wrong, but not for the reasons you might suspect. You poo-poo 9-3 like it's a bad thing. This is fucking nonsense of the highest order.
After 2011, Hoke, and for the most part his staff, could do no wrong. Given the quick turnaround after the disappointment of the RR years, the euphoria was understandable.
More disappointments last year, but Denard's injury certainly had quite a bit to do with the late season losses. Hoke didn't seem to get much direct criticism, but after the OSU game Borges got thoroughly roasted. However, Hoke's post-season recruiting success mitigated the anger to a significant extent.
A good portion of the fanbase around here was almost giddy with optimism going into this season, and predictions of double-digit wins, including victories over MSU and OSU, were very common.
Fast forward seven games and now a sizeable portion of the fanbase (at least around here) is openly calling for the heads of several assistant coaches, with more than a few having also concluded that Hoke is an inarticulate doofus who has no clue what's going on.
If we don't come away with a win a week from now, the portion of the fanbase that shares that last opinion is going to expand exponentially.
Hoke alternates behind savant and idiot depending on the score of a game. It really is ridiculous.
quite common, unfortunately. I suspect we are no different from virtually every other fanbase which has had a winning tradtion at some point, but have fallen on diffiicult times. I would also agree that our memories of past glory might be a little blurry at best.
Problem is the team has regressed. And I'm not calling for anybody's job, I'm just saying the team has regressed. Not even so much the offense because we all knew they had to adjust to Denarnd's style of play for two years. No excuses for the Defense they've been in the system for 3 years now, and clearly have regressed. That is a problem with he coach.
Yeah, the team's regressed because they are not nearly as experienced as they have been. Urban the Great had a couple of 8-4 seasons because of this very reason.
Defensive regression? Why because they had a bad game against Indiana? Have you watched Indiana this year? Those kids can move the ball.
If you honestly think this team has regressed I urge you to go back and watch other games over the past couple years. Perhaps the improvement is not as drastic as we would all like, but overall this team is improving game to game year to year.
Rather than repeating your claim that the team has regressed, it might be helpful to explain what the hell you're talking about. When exactly was which unit better, and how exactly is it due to coaching? I'm denying anything, but it's odd to see a claim just repeated over and over without any support.
It should be explanatory but if you really need me to explain what it means for a team to regress, particularly this team I will. Let me make it simple for you, there are many aspects of this team that look worse in year 3 then they did in year one. Last year at least the O-line made an attempt to block some one, this year they are blocking no one. Last year the Defense did a good job getting off the field on 3rd down, this year they are not. I could go on and on, but do you really want to? are you really pretending that you haven't noticed regression in this team, Coaching has regress, special teams have regress, Fitz looks slower, linebackers aren't as good as they have been. C'mon man are you really doing this. I'm a Michigan fan just like you but be honest with yourself.
I can't stand the g-d negativity around here sometimes.
They went 11-2 the first year, with a BCS win. Mattison as coach improved the defense by about ONE HUNDRED spots in ranking. They overperformed even the optimistic predictions some would have that year. OF FUCKING COURSE they were going to regress to some extent. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. The coaches are good, but they're not magicians.
NOt to mention that the "regression" from last year included 3 losses to 3 teams that lost a grand total of TWO games among them all year (and one of those losses was the fricking national championship game).
This year they're 6-1 and were one field goal or interception away from 7-0.
But yeah. Totally regression, you guys.
Sooooooo you make my point by saying this team has regressed, then you act as if its all fine and dandy, as if its OK because every team in America will get worse over time. Yeah unfortunate that doesn't fly its not OK. I'm sure Hoke would agree with me and say the same thing. So ask yourself, whose expectations lines up more with this coaching staff, mines or yours? you believing that regression is OK, and I believing that it is not. We've seen 5 different left guards, 2 centers, and 4 left tackles. All I've said was that this concerns me, and some how that makes me a bad fan? you tell me to go root for someone else, and that I'm to negative because I'm concerned that a staff could go through a full off season (spring and summer practices) and not know their team couldn't block power? Maybe you should go root for another team, find one of those little kids soft ball teams where they don't keep score.
Completely missed my point. Yes, the regression is expected. And it's silly to think that regression always and forever means that the coaches are bad. And you also miss the point that Hoke was a guy who got us to 11 wins, but you're kind of using that to ding the guy because next year he wasn't as good, even though with the tougher schedule anyone with a brain could have seen it coming.
And, by the way, it's not right to say that Michigan has regressed this year again, because the simple fact is we don't know yet. They're 6-1 yet, and there is a chance they win out. Shoot, there's enough data to show that they've progressed in some areas. Maybe not on Oline, but again, no coach would be able to stem the tide of regression on OL due to turnover and youth being forced to start.
You bring up Akron and Uconn like they're relevent, but they're not. Because you are essentially arguing that RR at least progressed each year, when there is data to prove that he didn't. My point was if you're going to hold Akron and Uconn against Hoke as some sort of proof that Michigan is regressing, in contrast to how you think RR progressed each year...look at 2010 and see how many of M's wins were a lot like Akron and Uconn this year.
They needed to go 12-1 last year and undefeated this year? I suppose if Saban doesn't go undefeated they should can his ass too. Or is treading water ok?
You have not acquitted yourself admirably.
These are all just angsty ranting points that are not necessarily due to coaching. Generally, regression would make more sense if players were getting worse. New players coming in and not playing as well as past players is hard to pin on coaching since it happens to every team.
This isn't about being honest with yourself. This is about suppressing your extreme emotions and thinking about things rationally. I've gotten fired up at times this season as well, but when it comes to evaluating things a week after the last game, it's really better to slow down and try to be objective. It's not clear you're capable of doing that.
Dude I don't care how you word it. You can say the offensive line "players" are worse, or you could say the offensive line as a whole is getting worse. Who cares it is still regression. Now if you want to believe that that has nothing to do with coaching then go ahead, we'll just agree to disagree. Being objective has nothing to do with anything because everything I listed is fact. The O-line does look worse; rather you name them by name or a unit. The D-Line looks worse rather by name or unit, as does defensive tackling. I'm not calling for coach Hokes job, or writing the book on this regime that would be ridiculous. This team still has a chance to have a great season. All I am saying is that they have not look up to par as whole team so far. They have issues, and if they don't correct them soon it maybe to late.
The offensive line certainly has gotten worse. The case against the defensive line is arguable. They hot no pass rush last year. This year has been better.
But not being "up to par" depends on your definition of "par".
Guys please stop with the formalities PLEASE! your killing me. I am not being coy with anything I am saying. forget the numbers, forget who they've played and who they haven't played I don't care. By saying this teams has not looked up to "par" I am merely saying that as a team they have not past the eye test, nor the sniff test. They're offense defense and special teams have not came out and looked good at the same time. In certain games the defense looks good, but the Offense stinks. There are other games where the offense looks great, but then the Defense is bad.
But my definition of "par" is roughly "average", or better yet "an expected level". That is, after all, what "par" means in its original golf context.
This team has been exactly up to par.
By admitting that you are diregarding every objective measure and just telling us your feelings, you lose the right to call others dishonest when we disagree with you.
Calling his claims "facts."
The OL is currently getting worse? By what metric? What is your frame of reference? Were they worse vs. IU than against PSU, or are you just talking about relative to last year, in which case one could point to having lost half of it to graduation?
The DL is worse? By what metric? They are statistically far improved over last year, for example.
I think the reason you come across so poorly is because your posts do nothing but repeat your dubious premises. We're asking for reasons to believe your premises before we bother with any of your arguments based on them.
Even if you don't think these are worthwhile exercises, I hope you'll see that those who don't immediately agree with you have reasons beyond not being honest with ourselves. As it turns out, your personal emotions toward a topic play no role in how someone else might evaluate the same topic.
If we don't come away with a win a week from now, the portion of the fanbase that shares that last opinion is going to expand exponentially.
Probably. It's irrational, though - playing a 7-1 team on the road is not easy, especially when that team has the top-ranked defense in the country. The fact that this opponent is MSU, of course, makes it hard to remember those things.
Next week is the biggest game of Hoke's tenure at Michigan. I know playing on the road is tough. No excuses. This is a game Michigan needs to win. Part of the problem is that Hoke does not have one quality road win. To this point he is not capable of getting this team to perform well on the road. Hoke won't be fired after this season but the fact that he does not have one single quality road win is a major concern.
But really how many opportunities have they had in 2 and a half years for a quality road win? In 2011 it was beat a really good MSU team or...nothing. Last year it was two undefeated teams and a team we lost our starting QB in. If we had beat Penn State would anyone be calling it a great road win? There haven't been a lot of opportunities to break that streak.
Brian is creating this sentiment almost single-handedly. He is like ESPN telling the world how great the SEC is. He is like the Freep telling us how bad RR was. It's absurd.
What is with all the negativity?
Pretty standard coach speak if you ask me. We are the only fan base that can cry doom while sitting at 6-1.
Cheer up people.
The pass rush is way, way better this year than it was last year. This is not a subjective issue. Hoke is right about this, and if you disagree with him, you're wrong.
Is it surprising that Hoke isn't as suicidal as most of the fanbase? Do we really want an angsty teen coaching the team?
There are certainly many other areas that continue to be concerning, but given that it helps the team not one bit to discuss those issues in public, why would Hoke be forthcoming about everything? Just stop reading Hoke interviews if you're sick of his lack of candor. It's not going to change.
The pass rush has been pretty sad since Brandon Graham.
all of his recruits are underclassmen. This is getting downright idiotic. How can you blame him for his recruiting not panning out when all of those players are sophomores and freshmen.
Michigan fans do have a recent history of doing just that.
Why we're people willing to crucify RR for not running a system suited the players available on the roster but Hoke gets a pass on this? Maybe manballing it up the gut with a young, inexperienced interior line 27 times isn't a good idea.
while Hoke's teams have all been highly competitive.
I can't believe you even asked that question.
We could easily have 3 losses right now. That's not very confidence inspiring. Needing a goal line stand to beat Akron at home and what transpired for two weeks after that, ya I think I can ask.
And UCONN could not do anything on offense in the 2nd half.
No, you can't ask the question.
Ahh yes, all the Ws are the same argument.
You're comparing a coach who went 15-22 (and several of those 15 wins were ugly, Akronesque affairs) with a coach who is 25-8.
Hoke is 14-6. If Arizona maintains their halftime lead, Rodriguez will be 13-7 (after inheriting a 4-8 team that lost a QB to the NFL draft, its leading rusher, and its top 3 receivers).
People still acting like their vastly differing records at Michigan are a reflection of coaching acumen are beyond fucking retarded.
Well, the correlation might not be 1:1, but yes, a record is a reflection of one's coaching acumen.
More to the point, and I know you'll hate this, is that Hoke knows how to win at Michigan. Coach Rod didn't. That's all that we care about.
"A record is a reflection of one's coaching acumen."
This is Hoke's 11th year as a head coach, and RR's 20th year. RR has a better win percentage over his much longer tenure. RR has 8 conference championships; Hoke has none.
Brandon paid more for a quality DC (Mattison) than he paid the DC and OC combined under RR. Almost immediately, UM went from one of the worst defenses in the country to a steadily good defense ever since (even in the first year, without "Hoke's guys").
On the other hand, our offense has steadily regressed from the heights of 2010.
If, after watching the Akron, UConn, and PSU games this year, you think we have built an incredibly sturdy base of a program, especially on offense, that is your right. Others, who have seen what Borges has done throughout his journeyman career, or the lack of OL development under Funk, see things differently.
But given your original statement regarding coaching acumen, you may want to tone down your comments on RR and Hoke. (Or, at least until Hoke catches up in the win column, wins a few conference titles, etc.)
I think you're taking offense to something I didn't say.
I think Coach Rod is a good coach. I think Coach Hoke is a better coach for Michigan, if for no other reason than his program will not be attacked from all sides.
You quote "Hoke's guys", but I have never, nor will I ever, say such a thing. A coach's guys are the players on his team.
Regarding the regression of our offense, you are just wrong. By almost all metrics, our 2011 offense was better than 2010. The same goes for this year being better than last. To wit, points per game in chronological order: 32.8, 33.3, 29.8, 42.4. Mind you, this only takes 2010 into account, and that was Coach Rod's only decent season.
More to the point, even if the offense had regressed (it hasn't), the team has gotten better defensively and on special teams. So, if your claim was true (it isn't), that would hardly be any sort of damning evidence, considering the rest of the team has progressed, as evidenced by our win totals.
But given your original comments on offensive regression, you might want to tone down your comments on everything (or at least until the offense regresses, your statements become true, etc.)
But we don't.
Let's take his best year, shall we? One of those wins was 67-65 3OT against Illinois. Obviously that could have been a loss. Another was a game-winning drive against ND to win 28-24. That could have obviously been a loss too. Oh, and let's not forget he almost got caught the week after the ND game by UMass, who was an FCS opponent...only won by 5 points that game. Beat IU by one whole touchdown. Wowza.
And that was a season with 6 losses. And it was his best year here. So soon we forget how bad it really was.
I mean, we're talking about a team that's 6-1 right now. Obviously a large question mark looms over their heads given the gauntlet that faces them in November. But, Hoke doesn't deserve to get crucified for anything until there's a real reason to (and no, almost losses are NOT a real reason). If he finishes the year 0-5...yeah, maybe we should crucify him then. Maybe you can start to compare him to RR then. But right now, that comparison is laughable at best.
Look at RR's record and Hoke's record. That's why.
Hoke HAS used a system that he doesn't prefer because it better suits his players. The past two seasons have actually occurred, right? Am I losing my mind. We have been an almost exclusively spread to run team for the better part of three years. This season, we've move to more pro-style concepts, but even still, we have not abandoned the spread.
Hoke has lost a game this year. Even if you blame it all on the pro-style offense, this unsuitable offense has been better than any of RRs years. And this is ignoring the fact that not only did RR round peg/square hole the offense in 2008, he did the same thing to the defense for all 3 years.
Stop this. Its stupid.
This is his third season. He won 11 and 8 games his first two seasons. Ron Zook had several losing seasons. 8-4 would have been outstanding for the Zooker.
The problem here is not with Hoke, but with you and the fans who had unrealistic expectations. This was a team that had an inexperienced QB, inexperienced interior O, and inexperience at several spots on defense. It isn't Hoke's fault that you harbor delusions of grandeur.
Too soon to tell. It will fall on player development. The latter Carr years brought in plenty of talent but mirrored plenty of 3 and 4 loss seasons. i.e. we played well below our talent. Right now Hoke is working with a 2010 class that is well documented to be very poor and a 2011 class that DOES NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE STARTER ON OFFENSE. Think about that. I bet NO OTHER team in the country does not have A SINGLE STARTER on offense from the 2011 class. The 2010 and 2011 classes should be the bread and butter of a team in 2013. We have some contributors but not enough. The book on Hoke will be out by 2015 unfortunately because he has never "done it" (i.e. been elite) anywhere else we don't know if he can do it here. He is a hell of a recruiter - that is all we know. The game management leaves something to be desired as he is a major delegator during game time. We've seen some "curious" decisions. My main worry this year is I thought Hoke was more of a Les Miles, take a chance type than a Lloyd Carr play it conservative type - he seemed to do that in 2011 and 2012 when he had less to lose but now he seems in some games to have (PSU) reverted to Carr-isms. I could care less about interviews - they dont tell you much. He wont give away things he is unhappy with because it is coach speak. I will see with my eyes. He has a pass this year and unfortunately with another potential disaster year from the OL next year and losing almost all our WRs next year (Funchess and Chesson only to come back) he will get a pass next year. 2015 has to be it - only Morris will be a wildcard, and the schedule fits UM big time - rivals at home. It has to be a 1 loss type of year. Otherwise I dont think he is a coach that takes you to elite status - he just can take you to "Carr status" i.e. the old Michigan 3, and 4 loss seasons now standard for 20 years.
Just wanted to pick a tiny nit. There are no passes. If this year melts down and we finish 6-6, there will be no passes given. And there shouldn't be.
But lets not pretend that being a pretty good team which finishes with 3-4 losses is deserving of a pass to begin with. That would be a good accomplishment.
You're just an epic troll.
and deleting are your friends.
Try it before posting things like this. It usually works for me.
(edit: this was in response to a post by "Epic-Blue" at 9:11 pm which appears to have been since deleted. Possibly he was also "deleted"? Here's his original post, which I copied but then failed to paste until now:
Is Ron Zook reincarnated! Hell of an recruiter, but can't put it all together! I predict many 8-4 seasons in or future. Mediocre coach. Mediocre results."
It was so epically bad that I couldn't help but respond hours later...)
By the way anybody watching UCLA and Oregon? Out of 22 starters for UCLA 13 are freshman and sophomores. Currently they are going blow for blow with Oregon, just sayin.
On the road.
Just because UCLA is doing it that does NOT mean it is at all a reasonable expectation. There are exceptions to most rules.
Do you have any reservations about Hoke? Do you think it's possible to be excited about some aspects of our program (primarily recruiting) and worry about other things (refusal to modernize our punting, late game clock management, offensive identity/philosophy)?
I am concerned with Borges playcaling, but the scheme itself is fine. We know Manball works because we have seen Bama use it. Borges has shown a willingness at previous stops to go multiple, which is what I prefer anyways.
The punting scheme doesn't concern me one bit. I have seen punts blocked out of both schemes. Execution is what matters most.
I don't see worrying on here, but panicking. People are seeing the success of Ohio and to a certain extent, MSU, and compare that to UM's struggles, and they are freaking out. I think that is a mistake. Both of those programs have more experienced than UM. Ohio in particular has an advantage because of the smooth transition from Tressell to Meyer.
I agree that there are way too many people overreacting to single game outcomes and panicking and those people do bring down the overall quality of discussion, but I do think there are some legitimate concerns with consistency. And I don't think that it can be entirely attributed to youth.
Alabama is running 8. They have not been too shabby.
A really bad example.
With Oregon....yeah, how'd that turn out?
Bo wasn't a Michigan man! How did that turn out??!! Oh wait...
No national titles, no Heisman trophy winners, 5-12 in bowls (2 Rose Bowl wins to his credit), 13 Big Ten titles (not too shabby), 11-9-1 vs. OSU and a pretty damn good record.
The Michigan man term meaning in my opinion has been lost. IMO it's about the character of a person more than his ties to the university.
agreed. The lingeage thing has become overstated. You need someone well versed in the Midwest, especially Ohio and IMO increasingly northern VA to NJ corridor is one place a UM coach needs to have ties to, if not himself his staff as there is a lot of talent and no major powers in that area. And far less competition from the SEC teams for those kids. They did go for Schiano (sp?) from Rutgers in the last coaching search so they dont appear married to it and frankly outside of Miles... if Hoke doesnt work out, I dont see any viable candidate who is part of the "lineage". It is a bit surprising with all the coaches churned out at UM there are not a lot of guys who went to other programs from either the Moeller or Carr years and are a hot commodity. So I think by default if Hoke is released say 2016 they will have to go a non "lineage" direction as there wont be many candidates unless the Miles 2.0 is the decision. I really could care less if they have an association with UM prior - as long as they have ties to Ohio and the HS staffs and are a winner. Hopefully it is Brady.
Just bring back the neg Brian Cook.
This is perhaps the most ridiculous post I've seen. Hoke isn't going anywhere by 2016 except to recruit kids for 2017, 2018 and 2019.
How many years at Michigan should a coach have without getting to a Rose Bowl? 4? 5? If Hoke can't do it in 2015 it will have been 5 years. How many are you willing to sit back and watch all the other teams get to it while we sit and watch? 6? 7? 10? How many chances?
Hoke will have a top ten program with his players in place by 2015...you didn't note Rose Bowl was the criteria for success. Personally, I want a return to MNC or the new playoff, whatever. We are currently a top 25 team with an upward trajectory, 6-1, huge recruiting etc.
Step off the ledge fella...we could be Nebraska.
as did Lloyd Carr(who also won a national title). It seems to me that hiring "Michigan Men" has worked out for Michigan.
You really need to stop posting because you are having an incredibly difficult time constructing a semi-logical argument.
Real dog fight
It was a game until the end of the third quarter. Then a bad offensive game plan, a turnover prone QB, and a refusal to take what the defense was giving then turned the tide. Hmmm this all sounds familiar somehow.....
If only they had ended the PSU game after 3.
Let's get Mora Sr. on our staff, at least losses would be capped by legendary rants/tirades.
Any personn who thinks getting blown out by Ohio and Mississipp State in Year Three is "progressing" is something who is at odds with reality.
A lot better players? LOL. No, UM does not have "a lot better players" than RichRid did in Year Three. At least not on offense.
next week is critical for this staff the honeymoon is over. Youth had nothing to do with not having e a QB ready when Denard went down in the Nebraska game last year, youth had nothing to do with not having a center ready to play this year, youth had nothing to do with having a full off season of spring and summer practices, and still not knowing your team couldn't block power, youth had ZERO to do with 27 rushes for 27 yards.
Why did Mork have Maxwell in at the end of the ND game? Why couldn't Texas figure out how to stop BYU's zone read? Why cannot Bama figure out how to stop Johnny Football? What's wrong with LSU's defense? How can MSU's WR's be so consistently inconsistent?
You act as if other teams don't have similiar issues when in fact they do.
I think you need to take a break from the internet. Maybe stop drinking too...
It's fans like you who just need to shut the hell up.
Why? It's not like he made up a lie.
yep....Michigan's 40 years of consistent winning are all fraudulent.....
we have become RCMB...we have
I mean winning what? We have one NC since Truman was in the White House. It'd be nice to be able to hang your hat on something more. I mesh the way he said it sucked but the gist of his point isn't invalid.
If you're fine with 9-3 and nothing to really shoe for it that's cool but I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to want more.
I want to dominate teams and win the national championship every year. We have to give our coaches a fair chance or else we'll fire a coach every 2 years and never get there.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I have a B1G championship ring that means an awful lot to me. I, personally, don't give a fuck about your expectations. And I know for a fact that no one involved with the program does either.
We have won. We've won a lot of games. We've won quite a few conference championships. We've won a national championship. People have broken bones and spilled blood for every one of those wins, and also every one of those losses. That their efforts don't satisfy you is a shame, because Michigan has been damned good for a long time. If your complaints were legitimate, I would have no issue with them. But they aren't. Michigan has won. Michigan will continue to win. You should hope that the rate of winning matches your expectations, but know that no one gives a fuck.
Judging by the comments of other readers it would seem that people do give a fuck and would like so more out of such a storied program.
Please do take this the wrong way, but I could give a fuck about you, your opinion and your Big Ten championship ring, as if your opinion is more valid than others. I never said their efforts don't satisfy me but wanting more out of a program -- wanting to finally seem them take that step into a program that consistently plays to a high caliber is wrong than I don't want to be right.
If you're fine with 9-3 and getting embarassed on the national stage year in and year out -- but as long as we keep winning consistent with our all time leading winning percentage (like Ohio State, Alabama and others are sitting around trying to chase it -- no they're chasing titles) then that's fine with you. Others would like so see more and they don't need to be disparaged by your like just because you're content with 9-3 and pining over yesteryear.
And for the record I have never once said a dispargiing thing about a player that has or does play for Michigan until now. Nor did I use any swear words in my criticisms of the coaching staff.
Fans like us who paid tuition, who bought and continue to buy tickets, who donate to the University and the AD make it possible for someone like you to get a free education playing a game and the opportunity to play for and win that Big Ten Championship ring you're proud of. Being spoken down to like that and setting up straw men and mowing them down (never said the efforts of any players aren't good enough -- at the end of the day they're college kids playing a game they love) isn't a good look either.
Again, I never have said a dispariging comment about a player that plays for Michigan (constructive criticism sure but never 'he sucks get him out of there') -- all I did was question whether or not the current staff is good enoguh to get the team over the proverbial hump we've been in ever since 1997 and since for a large period of time before that. I also wonder why fans seem to be so content with winning in consistency with our all time winning percentage and that's that. Winning 9 games, winning a Big Ten title, going to the Rose Bowl are all great accomplishments but 13-0 or winning a Rose Bowl would be great too.
I just question the culture of the coaches and the fanbase of 'we're winning in consistency of all time winning percentage', 'our goal is to win the Big Ten title and the rest will take care of itself'. I mean if you're a consistent B average student, don't you at some point say 'getting an A would be great, what can I change about what I've been doing in the past to better my chances of gettign As in the future?'
I've never been one to be satisified with the status -- the world would be worse off if every one were just satisified with their lot. I am grateful for the players and to have attended Michigan (guess why I did it? Didn't want to be like my folks working pay check to pay check) but there's nothing wrong with recognizing we are definitely capable of more and trying to figure out why that hasn't been achieved. The talent has been there -- coache's are adults making 6-7 figures a year and they should be open to criticism and questioning. It's healthy. Everything should be questioned and criticzized.
I said my piece -- I'm done here.
The point was that 9-3 is a damn tough thing to accomplish. Its easy to sit back and say, "I want more." But it is tough to get more. Really tough.
I didn't bring up my ring as a way to talk down to you. I did that because your comment read "but win what?". My response was B1G championships, and I've a ring that means a lot to me.
When I say no one gives a fuck, it's a rhetorical device to make very vivid the idea that there are real people bleeding and sweating for those 9 wins. I just think back on the times that guys broke legs in losing efforts and it maddens me to realize that fans think its easy to win them all, that never losing should be an expectation. No one is happy with losing. I WANT to win them all. But, and this is the reason I brought up my experience, I know better than most how unlikely that is. Adjust your expectations.
[edit: Sorry, my original comment does read a bit dickish. I honestly meant no offense, nor do I think my opinion matters more than anyone else's. But the ring thing was a direct response to your claim that we haven't won anything. And I set up no straw men. Michigan has won, a lot.]
You're an idiot.
This thread is depressing.
Before when you could neg idiots and the board was not MfcukngLive calibre you didn't have to deal with ranting of the newbs.
Sad new world.
Ohio State is killing Penn State to night with screen passes, oh but I guess those weren't open with we played them.
And beating to death a dead horse accomplishes nothing.
Bottom line this coaching staff has had some horrendous moments this year especially. Last week the offense seem to take a step up, maybe they found something with Bosch and Mags. Hopefully they found something with Bosch and Mags lol. I'll be with them win or lose, but id be lying if I told you wasn't concerned with this coaching staff.
But you're definitely not with them "lose."
I've seen about 40 posts from certain posters saying that we suck and Hoke needs to be fired etc. I'm a glass half full guy that knows that Michigan needs to be elite but is also realistic to know that we had NOTHING left after RR was canned. I just don't get the mantra of OMG we beat team x by only 10-20 points when we should have won by 20-30. Fire Hoke! If we get rid of every coach after 2.5 years because they're only 25-8, we'll never get back to the elite level we expect.
but we almost lost to two of the worst teams in FBS - like down to the last play almost lost - and we lost to Penn State who OSU with a "questionable" defense is beating 42-7 two minutes into the second half. So yes there is a reason to question what is going on. Also, for the wait to 2015ers, that will be Shane's 1st year starting, so I guess 2016 is really the first true measure?
...after reading this thread I think we need a snowflakes thread...and we didn't even tee it up today.
I was actually thinking this in reading some the comments - you know people are down when you actually find yourself contemplating creating Bye Week Snowflake Threads.
I will say, I did chuckle at his answer to the headset question: "Yeah, I’m not just sitting there just watching the game. If I wanted to do that, I’d retire."
The sad thing it's a bye week and we'll probably still get mentioned in TWIS.
I think the people here had WAY too high inflated expectations for this season and are now going all AA Torch and Pitchfork Co. when we're still 6-1 and a B1G Title game appearance is still on the table. Stop whining about Akron and UConn and trying to force those two wins into two losses.
I am not sure that there would be this level of dissatisfaction if the Wolverines had smashed UConn and Akron. Take those 2 games out and look at the points the offense has put up. Still, people think Borges should be fired. I think Mattison best describes where the program is when he talks about caring only about keeping points off the board. Right now they are just trying to win. It doesn't matter how ugly. They don't have the experience and in some places the talent to be where they want to be...which is a team that will exert their will on both sides of the ball.
I'm no sure what people want Hoke to say mid season. I would hate for him to publicly critique his players or express disappointment in their progress. He sure as hell can't be second guessing the play calling through the media. He said it best when he said the team is inconsistent.
if we had beaten Akron and UConn handily and then lost to PSU they way we did. I would have chalked it up to another one of those Borges away game playing calling learning opportunities that hopefully got his head on straight for the remainder of the slate.
As a leader, I think there is no problem with Hoke publicly saying: "Our line is not where we need them to be, and they have to step it up", or "Clearly we made some coaching mistakes at the end of the Penn State game, and we need to fix those". That's not bus throwing under, that is acknowledgment. (Both of those I think he kinda did, but not as fully as the torch and pitchfork crowd would like.)
Give me a freaking break.
Al Borges is the QB coach. It's not like we literally don't have a guy coaching Devin and Shane.
What Angelique is asking is if Borges's OC responsibilities make it hard for him to also be a QB coach and Hoke doesn't think so. That's a little different.
And I'm saying they clearly need a dedicated QB coach. How many turn overs by QB's in past 3 years? To me needing a QB coach is the most clear observation of this staff, team.
I wonder why Hoke had a separate QB coach at SDSU, but doesn't feel he needs one at Michigan. Gardner went to QB camps over the summer and trained with that broom guy. I wonder if Hoke thinks that's enough.
Our pass rush will look a lot better when guys like Charlton, Hand, McDowell, and Mone are here and not true freshman. Having a guy like Peppers on the back half that can shut down the #1 reciever by himself won't hurt either. And, play calling will look a lot more effective when the 2013 o-line class is playing as upperclassman and can run block. This doesn't make any of this feel any better because this thing is still two more years away, but at least most of the problems have answers it's just a matter of getting them here and getting them experience. If we fail to develop these kids in 2 more years when we finally have a full team of Hoke's guys and we have some experience, then we really have issues.
Stop it with factual observation and talk more about how you feel and "regression" and shit.
RR couldn't coach defense for shit. Hoke has a respectable O and D and is 25-8 right now.
Can we make TWIS off of a bye week?
Why this thread is 180 comments long? I'm drunk and I don't feel like reading through everything.
we discussed the best type of canned pineapple. Rings has a slight lead, but the chunk contingent is vocal. Very few are a fan of crushed.
is natural juice vs syrup
Chunks have some valid points. Anybody claiming crushed is out of their mind. Fresh is the best though and the baby pineapples are overrated.
Rings grill better than chunks do, so I think rings have a clear advantage.
Chunks are just 6-1. Fire chunks!
There are couple rogue Michigan "fans" who want Hoke and/or Assistant coaches out. There are others who disagree with that. People are arguing.
On a serious note, I'm not thrilled with several things this year and a good portion of is just plain coaching (playcalling, lack of development for certian players, etc.). BUT, I do think youth is a big part of the problem and I think the team has improved over the course of the year (O-Line improvement is TBD). If you think about some of the key COGS of the defense machine in 2011, they were Carr guys - the type of guys that fit what Hoke and Mattison are trying to do on the D-line. We saw what coaches can do with the veteran talent. There will be no excuses in 2015. Let's wait and see what happens instead of panicking. Theres a fine line between panic and worry and this board is leaning towards the former. Calm the F down.
Wait until after next week. If Michigan craps the bed at MSU are we still supposed to say wait until 2015? No more excuses.
You didn't hear? Because we'll be breaking in a new QB in '15, we have to wait until '16 now
so I guess 2017 it is?
I don't see us crapping the bed, but a loss would not be grounds for termination, no. It would be totally unprecedented for a 6-1 team to lose on the road to a rival team which is 7-1.
My only question will be what distinguishes the year in which Rich Rodriguez got terminated from Brady Hoke's third year? Which isn't necessarily an argument that Brady Hoke should or should not be relieved.
But if (!) Brady Hoke finishes 7-6 with losses to MSU and OSU and a bad bowl loss to a mid-level SEC team, what will anybody say? That's not so improbable; say that Michigan loses to MSU in OT. And then, with a (hypothetically) banged-up Devin Gardner, wins just one of the subsequent games at Iowa, at Northwestern, or versus Nebraska. And gets hammered by OSU in the last weekend? That hypothetical season is a near-photocopy of 2010.
It really sucks that Hoke's worst season at Michigan is only as good as RR's best.
That's the kicker. Because Rodriguez's best season as a coach had him very close to the BCS Championship game. Not so, Hoke.
Anyway, I am not going to fall into the stupid trap of deriding Brady Hoke just because Rich Rodriguez was treated badly in Ann Arbor. What I expect is that as a matter of cold hard facts, Brady Hoke will be afforded many more chances, much more media support, and far more institutional loyalty than was Rodriguez, and so Hoke will likley do better.
100% correct, if for no other reason than RR was not David Brandon's hire while Hoke is.
They were paying him to win at Michigan.
Both best seasons were BCS bowl wins. Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
I'd say the fans calling for the coaches' heads would certainly have a case. That would be a disaster. I don't know if a firing would be merited, but his seat would be hot as hell, and rightfully so.
I don't see it happening. This team is pretty good. We can beat everyone on the schedule on any given day.
I didn't read the transcript as a disclaimer. But seeing 200 comments on this thread when we get maybe 60 on a presser thread tells me people are freaking out and over analyzing.
We will beat state and people will finally shut up.
I'm just going to say the same things everyone else has said in this thread, but here it is:
If you think that the rush (biggest point of contention last season) hasn't improved this season, look at the numbers.
If you think the offense is worse this season than last season, look at the numbers.
If you think this TEAM is worse this season than last season, look at the numbers.
If you think that some of the game plans, especially offensive, have been questionable, you're entitled to that. The sure are infuriating sometimes.
If you think that some close wins against obviously inferior teams and a reak type loss in Happy Valley are a HUGE PROBLEM, look at the entire history of college football.
If you thinki bitching and moaning because your favorite team is 6-1 in a way that displeases you makes you look cool, look at yourself.
I swear to god, half the fanbase is like Minny fans when Glen Mason was coach. "Sure, we're winning, but not how I WANT us to win! GRRR!!! I AM ANGAR!!!"
Truly, why are you on this site if you aren't looking at the numbers? There are other sites where you can bitch and moan about things you don't understand. Here, our generous authors are numbers acolytes. It is what they believe and know. It's what we readers believe and know. They don't lie.
Brian's been acting out of character lately, and I think its driving some readers off the deep end. He IS generally a numbers guy, but he has acted like the sky is falling. It isn't. This is a pretty good team with some problems. I don't really believe anyone thought we'd be an elite team, but we've gone 6-1 so far. I know people are freaking out about HOW we won some of those games, but I don't see a reason for that. Akron and UConn are just Rorschach tests; you see what you want when you look at them. Most people on here think Borges should be fired and Hoke should wear a headset. I think both wins showed great resiliency and character.
Many people thought this was the year we might be elite. I know I had high hopes, because I follow the recruiting so closely and I really believe in our coaches. I also thought Devin was going to be a breakout,elite QB. But obviously my eyes are open. I still have faith that we are in a good place to be very good in the next 1-2 years and meanwhile some of the knee jerk, crazy, bat shit, critical posts make me enjoy this board far less than I used to.
Huh. I don't really follow recruiting closely, and this is the reason. I never count on freshmen. If they help, its a bonus. I do remember some people on here worried about Devin Gardner leaving for the NFL, but I didn't think that was a common belief. Huh.
on freshmen"... Just really thought it would go different. I was getting hyped up, and my point is I was obviously wrong. I still think we are on the right track. but then I guess I am just a big pollyanna compared to all the critics who know so much more than the people actually doing the coaching. everybody is such a fucking expert on this board.
It's a matter of expectations being raised as a result of the Notre Dame game, and then being subjected to two straight let down games against terrible teams, followed by a Minnesota game that didn't tell us much and then two games that define the word, "inconsistent". Put together with what appears to be a lack of improvement on many issues while we watch a major(and majorly annoying) rival round into form, along with the Rich Rod experience of a good record at the start of the season not meaning a damn thing and people are grumpy. So no, we're not particularly inclined to take a 6-1 record as being an especially positive sign given the context.
I do remember some people on here worried about Devin Gardner leaving for the NFL, but I didn't think that was a common belief.
In hindisght, it is truly remarkable; per subsequent interviews, we should have been more worried about Gardner leaving via transfer for the Arizona Wildcats, rather than via the draft for the Arizona Cardinals.
Do people really feel strongly that Hoke should wear a headset? I thought that was just a Sparty meme perpetuated by Mike Valenti. I truly so not give a shit whether he wears a headset or not. He's not the O-coordinator, and I thought what everyone liked about Hoke was his lack of micromanagement? He wears it in the key moments and knows Borges well. Plus there's probably a minion following him and telling him the plays without us knowing anyway.
I thought that was just a Sparty meme perpetuated by Mike Valenti.
It is. The d-bag has a reference to it as his Twitter avatar.
My biggest concerns are Borges' in game adjustments and the O line. When they both improve we will be fine.
It's an inevitable byproduct of having a bye week and watching OSU pound the bejeesus out of Penn State.
Unfortunately, it pales in comparison to what will be going on here if we lose up in EL next week. I'll have to take a vacation from MGoBlogland in that event.
I pray Michigan beats the everloving snot out of MSU so the trolls and negative nancies can go away, or at least shut up for a week.
Obviously a blowout win is likely not going to happen, but hey, an man can dream, can't he?
Hopefully Hoke and Borges develop a better appreciation for spreading the defense out, because that's the only way we'll beat State.
We spread them out last year. We scored 4 FG against them, in our house.
The spread is not a magic bullet. We need to play well, regardless of system.
I will never understand the youth argument. When our team fails to live up to expectations its because we're young. When you give examples of teams doing it with the same, if not more young players its "Oh that coach just walked into a better situation". Michigan States young O-Line is getting better, by the way so is their young QB. Ohio has a young Defense that seems to be getting better. Maty Mauk looks good, Penn State has a young Qb (look pretty good against us didn't he?).
I don't mean to fight with people about this. I do believe that with a little more time coach Hoke will get this team where it needs to be. I just think this team should be farther along especially the defense. I think this team should be 7-0 right now. I think the biggest reason why they are not 7-0 is because of coaching mistakes. I am not here to troll, I'm here because I am a Michigan fan. I just want to see if other fans are seeing it the way I am. If not just tell me why that's all. I happen to think next week is HUGE for this staff, and this season.
How people can blow off the ramifications of next weeks game is beyond me. For all intensive purposes next week is must win. No coach Hoke will not lose his job nor will anyone on his staff; but as far as the season goes next week is a must win.
Beyond that, I think it is just a pigment of your imagination.
Lose next week then come back here and tell me how "every game is important". Get beat by Michigan State and you basically got zero chance at a big ten title. Which by coach Hoke"s standards is a failed season. Save me the whole "pigment of your imagination" BULL! was I imagining 27 rushes for 27 yards? or 5 left guards, 2 centers, and 4 left tackles all before game 6? that happend!
Let's be honest. Whether or not we beat State, or they beat us, neither team is going to win a Big Ten title, because neither team is remotely likely to beat Ohio State.
OSU is simply a far more complete football team, and after 20 straight wins, it's obvious that they have elite coaching.
Michigan and MSU have too many obvious flaws, and are far from complete teams. And neither coaching staff has what it takes to put together a world-beater.
So worrying about a B1G title is like worrying about whether the sky is falling. It's not going to happen.
I agree the lack if improvement when compared to other teams is a big concern and it makes me wonder if the staff has whiffed on a lot of recruits similar to the way Texas has.
he has nothing to offer. When Alabama had a bad rushing first game Saban called out and criticized his offensive line. Since then they have improved every week. Meyers called out his defense and yesterday the responded by holding PSU to two touchdowns in a blow out.
I have no doubt that Hoke is a nice man but he is not right for Michigan. His teams cannot play well on the road and cannot beat high rank teams. Since his first year, the program has slowly deterioated in performance. To say they have only one lost and won six games misses what many Michigan fans are seeing as a trend. Schedule and beat inferior teams so that you become bowl eligible and take your losses toward the end of the season against better opponents.
If this is Michigan football, I and many Michigan fans want nothing to do with it.
I give Hoke three years max.
Three years total or three years from now? What are you going to do after this made up time frame of yours?
We'll miss you guys. Promise.