http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120313/OPINION03/203130328/Coaches-...
The chants went back and forth until the DeLaSalle student section took it to another level — "We've got futures. We've got futures."
Later they chanted: "Flip our burgers. And you are stupid."
Very unfortunate that things like this still happen.
Wow. I know I've yelled
If you can't tell the
If you can't tell the difference between groups of University students who are all paying tens of thousands of dollars yelling at each other, and a group of private school predominantly white kids yelling toward a group of public school predominantly black kids "we've got futures", then I don't know what to tell you
If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?
Counterfactuals
"You could completely revamp (sic) the ethnic make-up of the student body and the chants from the DLS students would still make sense."
Yes, but if we imagine a scenario in which decades and centuries of pernicious and deliberate social policy hadn't resulted in a Detroit that is incredibly segregated and that features staggering levels of under-education, incarceration, and unemployment, then we really wouldn't be talking about the same thing, would we?
If you assume away facts of material inequality, and all the stigma and divisions and other social implications that come with them, then a bunch of sort of racist stuff wouldn't be racist. But this is a pretty dubious assumption.
Racism at its finest. Who
Racism at its finest. Who would've thought that with De La Salle being a Catholic school?
Omnia mutantur nos et mutamur in illis.
Not sure if serious.
Not sure if serious.
That wasn't racist....
That wasn't racist....classless, yes, but racist, no. If their graduation rate is 4%, then the shoe fits. Actually what was 'racist' was you making a comment that it was racist....
Incorrect.
Not racism. As a former pilot (who is as disgusted as anyone by this, maybe even more so), this is not based on race, but rather a public school vs private school thing.
In many ways, it mirrors the michigan vs. michigan state mentality. Many of these kids were in public school, but wanted to better themselves and strive to be the best, so put forth the extra work to succeed and better their situation while their public school friends were content to get by on natural talent just going through the motions. In my case, my public school was cancelling advanced classes because of budget concerns and I didn't want to hold myself back. So in many ways, it is similar to why many of us chose to go to Michigan, over a potentially easier road through MSU and somewhat incorrectly results in a similar attitude. Not everyone can afford to or should better their situation through a private school.
Regardless of the reason, it's not cool and these kids should have some common sense. An apology is warranted here for sure. I thought the fans and players were gracious losers against Cass Tech, but not the case here. I can guarantee the Principal will be cracking down on a few kids hard for this, and possibly the entire student body. Consider myself embarrased as an alumni.
So De la Salle students would
So De la Salle students would have chanted the same things if Rochester Adams or Clarkston or Troy Athens was blowing them out?
yes
In fact a black friend of mine did that to his public school when I was there.
I went to Rochester Adams.
I went to Rochester Adams. We destroyed the De La Salle football team 34-6 in the 2007 playoffs. The De La Salle student section did not cheer "We've got futures!" at us.
Well, I went to UofD and if I
Well, I went to UofD and if I recall correctly, we used to chant this or other chants that were similar to this (for Catholic Central or CC we would reference OCC or Oakland Community College) at the other private schools and not public schools. The thought was although we generally were worse in most sports we always clung to a higher academic reputation over other private schools, which may or may not be true, and chants like these were ones to reflect that over other private schools. I don't ever remember this type of animosity towards public schools. The only close one I can think of was a hockey loss to Troy Athens that was pretty heated but nothing too outrageous and nothing like this. At UofD, I don't ever remember this concept of public v. private ever being a factor just because our rivals are all private schools. Even when we get beaten by Pershing and Renaissance year after year in the state playoffs for basketball (a sport we are/were decent at) we never really were frustrated.
Your analogy to UofM and MSU is completely off; several public schools are superior to private schools academically. International Academy was ranked one of the top ten college prep schools in the country about 5ish years ago.
I think your analysis of this is slightly off. This is definitely classless and definitely a class conflict (wealthier surburban kids to inner city Detroit), and it not be a stretch to qualify it as racism.
"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates.
I agree
The one private school I can recall we did it to was harper woods notre dame, for the exact same reason, a belief of higher academics.
You are right though that some public schools have better academics. Many who attend private school though do it to better their academics, so you could see where that attitude would come from.
As an alumnus of CC
We did the same thing to some public schools around us. Didn't really have to do with race at all, we usually only used it when the opposing schools would chant something like "brokeback high school" or something along those lines. I do believe U of D does not have better academic standards/prominence than CC and not sure where that belief in U of D came from and why it's so prominent.
My dad played for Woody Hayes, and therefore I am a Michigan fan.
No matter what, I will graduate with a degree from U of M one day.
Not sure how true it is. I
Not sure how true it is. I know UofD's standards were better than many of the other catholic schools earlier but nowadays I don't think that there is much difference. I know my senior year Brother Rice had more Merit Scholars than UofD and the other schools, particularly CC has been doing a really good job educating their kids. I think any UofD alumn or student will propagate the idea regardless of whether it is true or not.
"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates.
Because it's true.
I know kids who have transferred from CC to U of D and to a man, each one said that U of D is a more challenging school than CC. But don't take my word for it - just compare ACT numbers, scholarship monies awarded, or acceptance rates to different colleges - U of D is higher than CC in all three categories. Besides, the remedial track CC has for lower end students doesn't help either.
It tastes like burning.
Ugh....
Brings back memories from when I went to Grosse Pointe North and we played Alpena for the Hockey championship and students from GPN chanted; "That's alright, that's OK, you're gonna work for us someday." Totally awful, everyone got in trouble for it. I, for the record, was not there. Also, I believe their school was predominatntely caucasian. Morons will be morons, I think.
I went to Bloomfield Hills
I went to Bloomfield Hills Andover before the teachers and students got gutted by the International Academy; our fans chanted this all the time, to everyone except Cranbrook.
Ugh....
Not to say these trolls weren't racist, just saying some kids think they are better than others and they always will. Bad parenting.
losers of the day
I went to North after that but I remember we were losers of the day in WJR
Go Blue!
True.
I graduated from U of D High in the mid 80s and we always used these types of cheers against CC and Rice, etc. We were terrible in sports but couldn't be beat in the classroom. We never used the same cheers agaist the Detroit public schools when we played them.
But just because we used it in this context does not mean that others do also. I don't know enough about the De La Salle situation to coment.
That was something I forgot
That was something I forgot to add. I was trying to finish it before a class and thought later that my point about the private v. public divide wsa being supported only from my experience at UofD. Someone from CC even brought it up as they do it to and not necessarily to Detroit teams. Also, thinking more about it, it is always easy to hit the racism concern, and maybe it is, but these are kids who are 14-18 and most do not understand the implications of their cheers as reflective of the social inequities of our system. It is always easy to jump into cheers the student section is yelling and not think about it as a high school student. I remember it was always a tic for tac with the other student sections. Additionally, as someone mentioned above, it does reflect somewhat on parenting and the fact that many of these kids probably do not have experience in the social issues facing Detroit.
The biggest critique should be where were the school officials? We always had a teacher, the dean, or the principal at the game (the games and sports that draw crowds) watching the teams and monitoring the section making sure the students do not get out of hand. If it was really that awkward as the article claimed then they should have stepped in and stopped the cheer. Then again maybe it just seems controversial since it was mentioned about a school in Detroit and the previous (fake?) letter that was circulated after CC lost the state title. If private schools do this all the time to public schools then why is it never brought up about the other schools that it occurs to? Maybe it is something that should be considered youngs kids being kids against their competitors. However, it does reflect the social divides between Detroit and surburban areas and the inexperience these kids and others have with dealing with sensitive issues of poverty, poor social infrastructure, and race.
"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates.
"Comment" not "coment" Oops.
Preemptive correction.
It disgusts you, and then you
It disgusts you, and then you proceed to come off with the same attitude? Can I have your contact info? I NEED to interview someone who thinks that they're special because they went to private high school.
Go Blue!
I think religion is supposed
I think religion is supposed to be left out of MGoBoard discussions.
You mean implying that all
You mean implying that all people of a certain religion are ipso facto racist is an ignorant and offensive thing to post on a sports blog? Whodathunkit?
Not race, not academics; just spoiled brats
Grand Blanc would do the same thing to my high school, which was about 90% white and they were not that much better academically. It boiled down to their students thinking they were better than us because their families had money, and they couldn't handle losing to a school of "inferior" students. It's a stereotype that isn't true for a lot of their students, but they just had a lot of kids that felt entitled.
Funny with Universities, not
Funny with Universities, not even close to funny with high schools. Sad.
Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order because it is better organized.
Wow
That's just disgusting.
So hot. Milk was a bad choice.
And you know that if Norfleet was on De La Salle
they'd have been cheering for him like crazy.
I didn't get the feeling the
I didn't get the feeling the chants were directed at Norfleet himself, but rather at the King school.
Regardless, extremely poor taste, poor sportsmanship, and very sad. Congrats to Norfleet on the W.
Always reaching for the banner.
Way to keep it classy kids!!
Way to keep it classy kids!! What an embarrasment, I bet heads are rolling over there.
"Those who stay will be champions"
High schoolers are assholes,
High schoolers are assholes, plain and simple. Huge dick move nonetheless
If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?
As a DLS alum this is 0%
As a DLS alum this is 0% surprising. Those chants fit the culture of entitlement and thinly veiled racism that is pervasive in much of the De La Salle student body.
Another DLS alum here and I
Another DLS alum here and I totally agree. Entitiled, spoiled, White kids. I mean, it was present when I was going there, but it seems like it has grown way stronger since 2007.
North Campus' resident Sport Management major
Michigan Concrete Canoe Team - http://umich.edu/~concanoe
Dilemma
When a college like NW has a chant like "that's alright, that's OK, you'll all work for us someday," it's cute and creative. When a predominantly white private high school does the same thing to a predominantly black high school, they risk crossing the line. Bringing it closer to home, we use a lot of the same insults against Sparty. So, the question is, "where does it cross the line?"
Was it elitism or racism? Good clean fun or hate speech? I'm going to lean to the side of racism and hate speech here, but a more subtle form where many of the students didn't even realize the social ramifications of what they were doing. To me, they might not have meant anything by it, but the underlying mentality of King students being "inferior" is more important than what they meant.
To me, the main question here is one of how the WDSL kids perceive the kids at King. Were they chanting to a generic fanbase of a team that pissed them off by beating their team, or were they chanting to a bunch of "black, inner-city kids?"
Hopefully, the staff at WDSL will use this as a "teachable moment," and students will have a better idea of what constitutes appropriate behavior at a public event.
"Teachable moment"? How can
"Teachable moment"? How can they expect their lesson to stick when the kids are obviously being influenced by racist/elitist parents? Screw the lot of them.
Omnia mutantur nos et mutamur in illis.
Kids
Kids are dumb. Smart kids are dumb. Kids with smart and rational parents are dumb. I bet many of those students didn't SEE what was wrong with what they were saying, because there is some truth; DLS grads have better career prospects, and quality of life expectations across the board. But kids don't always get that being correct and being in the right are very, very different.
This is a hell of an opportunity for DLS to tell these kids, "you know that stuff you were laughing about? You're laughing about these kids' lives. You're laughing about the fact that these kids are gonna have to scratch and claw for the shit you guys were handed. You're laughing about crime and drugs and death. Knock it the hell off. Being better off than someone else doesn't make you superior to them. Be human beings for the love of God."
That is a gross
That is a gross generatlization and assumption. I'll admit it, back in HS i too thought it was funny to chant things like "flip our bugers" or "S A T score" to less affluent schools. My friends and I did this because we, ourselves, were ignorant and immature. My parents have 0 ounce of elitist or racist attitude in them.
So don't try to teach the
So don't try to teach the kids a good lesson because they have bad parents? Congratulations, you've just perpetuated the problem.
Not all WDLS students, just
Not all WDLS students, just the ignorant ones. Sugar Shane obviously doesn't feel this way.
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." - John Wooden
Especially that Shane
Especially that Shane kid.
Go Blue!
Alright, I'll say it
Shane Morris obviously isn't a racist. But he did, per his twitter, find these chants amusing and did not think they crossed the line. This just further reinforces that the high schoolers really have no idea what theyre saying.
"This is an elite job, and will continue to be an elite job. This is Michigan ferodsakes!"
I graduated from HS in Birmingham.
My family was not wealthy by any means. You should have heard and witnessed what we put up with when we played those very schools. Obviously, they were influenced by their racist/proletarian parents. Screw the lot of them.
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift
I graduated from HS in Birmingham.
But not twice, dammit.
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift
The comparison to the NW
The comparison to the NW chants and our banter with Sparty is off base. Racial and socioeconomic inequalities are much more pronounced across the high schools than they are at the level of big, national universities. If you are fortunate enough to be able to attend a Big Ten university (even MSU), you have achieved a status in society that many regard as privileged. At that level, the taunting amounts to nothing more than the privileged ribbing the privileged. But at the local level, the notion of "the other side of the tracks" is very real. And high school kids are too young to bear any responsibility for whichever side of the tracks they hail from. Given that, DLS' taunts are demeaning and mean-spirited in a way that similar chants at the university level might not be.
Exactly.
If Northwestern or Michigan does it to, say, Michigan State, it's funny. If they do it to Grambling, it's racist.
"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk
Thank you
HIgh schools are representative of the neighborhoods where they are located. This is why some NFL player name their high school instead of their college during introductions.
So you're saying this would
So you're saying this would have been better if they were chanting it at white kids?
Would these insults be
Would these insults be interpreted differently if they weren't being hurled across one of the sharpest race and wealth divides in the country (and one that happens to have a bit of a tricky history behind it)?
Yes.
If your goal is to end
If your goal is to end harmful racial stereotypes, I'm not sure that reinforcing the idea that socioeconomic class = race is productive. Nor is it particularly productive to teach young people that those of different races must be treated differently (even if that difference is positive).
To the extent that this is offensive, it is because the current socioeconomic status of the student body is actually harmful and also beyond their control. This is equally true whether you're talking about poor white kids at a crappy school or poor black kids at a crappy school.
As with most things, there was a South Park about this that makes my point more eloquently than I can.
Wow. I know I've yelled some ignorant and ill advised things at games through the years but nothing that ever reached this level, even when I was in high school.