Maybe it's just me, but does Denard seem to have lost a little speed this year? I noticed he got caught from behind a couple times against SDSU (although not on a full-on run). I just remember how fast he was last year against ND and he seems to have lost a fraction of that speed.
Denard's Speed 2009/2010/2011
Did you perhaps think it is because he is being utilized in a slightly different offense? I don't think he has literally lost speed. He's being used differently than in the past.
I totally did the math and he is literally slower. Last year he ran 50 yards in 5.5278 seconds and this year it's 5.5279 seconds. I think the only logical option is to panic.
If either of those numbers is accurate, Denard has indeed lost a lot of speed. That tight end speed you're looking at.
No, he actually ran laterally during those timed runs to the tune af about 75.692341 yards, plus the 50 yards means that he ran 125.692341 in 5 seconds. Pretty much still the fastest human being in the world ever, still.
He looked pretty fast to me on his td run. Sdsu had some good angles when they caught him.
Yeah hes only leading the country in rushing, imagine if he had elite speed!
I'm really worried about Demens play at lineback as well.
I don't think he's lost speed, I think that people have just realized how fast he is and have adjusted their pursuit angles accordingly.
Agreed. Good coaching staffs will practice pursuit angles all week when going against a star player with unprecedented speed.
Option, ya say....... huh. That option has looked pretty damn good so far this year. If we are seaching for a base set, perhaps the option look is not a bad idea. You can still throw out of it, and with the defense off balance at that. I say shotgun now, shotgun forever, with a significant amount of option in the mix.
I really thought this was a sarcasm post making fun of the Kenny Demens one, but I guess I just gave too much credit to the Michigan fanbase.
Denard does have elite top-end speed, definitely among the fastest in the nation. However, he has THE best acceleration, burst, and quickness. That is what makes him Denard.
Acceleration maybe. Quickness? Have you seen LaMichael James lately?
But does he have grit? Moxy?
I was actually thinking he's a shade quicker this year than before. He always had the incredible straight-line speed but this year he seems more able to stop on a dime and change directions.
His wiki page says that he has run a 4.32 in the past.
I don't know, but as I was watching Jeff Demps' TD bee-line TD run vs. Kentucky this week, I couldn't help but think that I haven't seen Denard unleash that type of speed yet this season. Yes, I get that Denard is a QB and that his chances to uncork that kind of a run are much less likely to happen, and I do know that Demps is a hair faster, but I haven't seen a Denard run yet this year where everyone just eats his dust.
I am sure Denard is still fast, and I think many fans would gladly trade a little speed if the trade-off were extra durability.
Demps is also a sprinter on the Florida track team and I believe he set state records in high school. While he is probably a little faster, he's not as good as Denard on a football field.
That said, both kids can fly.
But Denard is/was(?) a sprinter on the Michigan Track team too.
Not sure if he is running again this year, but he did last year.
I was wondering that same thing recently - anyone know if Denard is planning on running track this winter? Or is he done in order to focus solely on football?
I am pretty sure Denard only ran track his freshman season, I don't recall anything about Denard and track last year.
Its interesting that he would run his freshman year (when the football learning curve is the greatest) but not after that. Seems like a good way to stay in great shape but maybe his body just needs rest. Not to mention time to focus on his studies.
Anyone know if Wheatley ran track all 4 years? I know he was the B1G champion in hurdles but I'm not sure if he gave up track or kept running his whole time in college.
Denard may have the edge in quickness and changing directions, but he is a ways off of being as fast as Jeff Demps in a straight line. Demps holds the junior 100m world record 10.01 and ran a 6.53 60m. Denard ran a 6.83 60m in The Dual when he ran track at UM.
Demps could be argued as the fastest player to ever play college fb and is without a doubt the fastest straight line runner in college FB right now. I don't think denard ran indoor track coming into this season, so it would be suprising if he starts running again.
Nice name. Better book.
Jeff Demps a hair faster than Denard? Lol your funny, jeff demps has WORLD CLASS speed. His fastest 100 is 9.9....9.9!!! Denards fastest time 10.28 thats fast but thats not Jeff Demps speed. Demps would solidly beat Denard in a foot race on the field or off.
Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. He definitely looks a little bigger, and has added a lot more muscle on his body. That might have slowed him down a very small amount. I'll take a stronger Denard that can take some hits that is still incredibly fast any day.
Denard has been getting tackled from behind as you mentioned, but these tackles have been from a desperate, lunging swipe at his ankles that just so happen to connect. No, I don't think he has lost any speed. Some people have already pointed out that he didn't get touched on the 53 yarder, but I think that point is just as stong as saying he is continuously being caught from beind- Vince would have scored on that run untouched. He wouldn't have gotten to the endzone nearly as fast, but saying that simply because he scored without having someone touch him doesn't hold weight in the argument that he hasn't lost speed. Nonetheless, I agree with raptor that it deals more with proper pursuit angles than a change in Denard's speed.
Everyone is judging this subjectively from watching TV, and worse, the rewatching/memory of the ND TD in 2010. That ND TD was perfectly blocked, and included the incredible block of Omameh on Teo that ended up taking out the safety that had a great angle on Denard until he was bludgeoned by a LB.
Yes Denard is getting caught, but it's because teams are no longer surprised. Except for the first QB option. If you noticed the QB option play was called again, and Denard almost kept the ball. Actually he pump faked the option pitch, and then pitched it, and my first throught was "crap here comes a fumble", but the RB (I think it was Vincent, but would have to watch the game again to be sure) caught it and had a great run up the sideline because the optioned defender had finally committed to Denard. SDSU had that play pretty well defended on just the second time seeing it. And they were focusing on Denard, and somehow Denard was able to add a QB oh noes to it.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if Denard is incrementally slower. Go check out Brian's links to the article talking about SDSU Head Coach not letting his players talk to the press because they were so devastated from having been Denarded!
Denard isn't slower, he's just not a surprise. But even though people prepare for him, they realize, they can't prepare for him.
Expect this hype and discussion to continue through every Big Ten team that has a dual threat QB. It's the meme of the season.
No need to be dicks about it guys. I have noticed him getting tackled from behind too, but most of them have been desperation, diving shoelace tackles (no pun intended). I think it's more luck than anything.
Edit: Oops, beaten by Mwolve. I think I've lost some of my speed.
Can't wait for the next OP to show up tonight...yeesh.
IF he has lost any speed, it's because of the good weight he has put on this offseason. He has shown that he still has great top end speed this year, but I think we can all agree that if he has sacrificed a step or two and is still the fastest guy out on the field AND that weight means he's not as injury prone as last year, it's for the best.
You have to be kidding me? If Denard has lost a step, then I am traveling backwards in time when I run.
Assassinate Hitler please.
And the people that invent stairs. Each one until you finally see escalators in all buildings. I hate stairs but the exhilaration of riding an escalator never ceases.
Yeah, I noticed that also... Wait he is leading the NCAA in rushing? Next thing you know someone will say that Demens is our leading tackler.
Everytime he was caught from behind was when he had another defender up ahead of him. I'm assuming this means he has to slow down a bit to change directions and such. But that straight run on the option was explosive and as fast as ever.
Probably shouldn't derp the OP for his point of view if Magnus is making the same points:
"On top of the scattershot arm, it seems to me that Robinson looks a bit slower this year than he did last season"
Though I think (/hope) it's merely coincidence he's been caught from behind a couple of times.
He'd get the exact same response if he posted this OP.
That doesn't mean he'd be wrong.
The defensiveness in this thread is really weird. A world in which Denard is a tiny fraction of a bit slower is not necessarily a world in which Denard is not an unbelievably good runner and a better overall football player.
That is the point. Do we really need to start a thread because Denard is a tiny fraction of a bit slower?
Also, Denard (and any player for that matter) will not get better if they are slower. Why would a football player be better if they are slower?
Why would a football player be better if they are slower?
There are many potential causes for improvement, some directly related to a marginal decrease in speed and some incidental to it.
Most relevant here: Denard clearly made a decision in the offseason to add a little weight. I have no doubt that this improves his ability as a runner; he's better able to grind out tough yards when needed, and his body is better able to absorb the impacts he's inevitably going to take. But while I think an added 10 pounds makes him an overall more effective and valuable player, it's not unreasonable to think that it may have cost him a very (very) small amount of speed. I'll take the tradeoff.
In other public service announcement type matters, Big Blue is either Kentucky or that IBM computer.
What in the fuck makes Magnus credible about anything? He is a junior high football coach... so was my dad.Neither know a shit about football.
wow ur cool
NIce. I don't have anything to add. But, very nice.
Probably shouldn't derp the OP for his point of view if Magnus is making the same points
Good. Fucking. Grief.
Trust me, that Magnus is making a point doesn't mean it isn't absurd. Read enough of his comments and you'll realize that.
I think Denard Robinson has changed the tide on the rivalry. Hell people in Ohio are starting to believe Denard Robinson. Never in a million years I would have thought that. Selling Denard Robinson jerseys is a good start.
I bet you expected a higher score than 1, didn't you.
...he's as fast, but now teams have begun to adjust to his style of play and are prepping the angles necessary to track him down -- if they can.
He was a huge surprise when he first took the field. Now teams are keying on him more.
He wasn't going exactly north-south when he was caught from behind against SDSU. He was trying to avoid defenders further down the field while the ones behind him were running straight. So, no, I don't think there's anything to worry about there.
IMHO, getting caught from behind is having someone catch up to you by being faster. It ISN'T getting tackled by someone who comes from an angle, and whose body is behind yours when it happens.
The latter MAY be happening more this year (though I don't think so), but if you can show me an example of the former, I'll give Charlie Weis a piggy-back ride.*
*Miss you, big guy. XOXO.
attempt that was made by the SDSU player please! I was laughing so hard I was crying at that one. Watch that highlight and tell me if Lace has lost a step!?!
It's gotta be the shoes. Damn this Adidas contract!!!!!
Could this have something to do with not seeing Denard live in eight months? I know if I waited that long to do anything it'd be glorified in my mind.
When he was a freshmen they weighed 5.3 pounds, but after three seasons at the training table they now weigh 11.7 pounds. There's an ongoing debate among the coaching staff about whether to force him to cut them off. Half the staff is in favor of this, the other half are fearful it will reduce his strength, like with Samson.
"Woolfolk's ankle 2010/2011-maybe it's just me, but does Troy seem to hobble off the field in nearly every game? Last year he NEVER hobbled off the field during a game.
Maybe this is due to Barwis no longer training the men to eat raw meat. Or likely this is due to Tony Gibson no longer coaching up the secondary."
I liked it... but this isn't Nam. There are rules.
Are you sure there are/were no rules in Vietnam? I mean, ear necklaces were at least frowned upon, weren't they? Maybe it wasn't a hard and fast "rule" though. Hmmm.
It might also be due to the fact that he never played last season... so he neither hobbled on, nor off the field during a game.
This is just a silly subject. You're talking minute, fractions of a second. Denard is still Denard. What makes Denard so special? It starts with his ridiculous speed.
Denard has moves in addition to his speed. Just check out the 3rd and fifteen play in the second quarter of the SDSU game (not so shameless plug - hit up my sig link and I have it tee'd up on my blog highlighting that play where he dances and burns in the same play).
Hey, Knappster....you are not alone in this observation. Not sure why fellow posters take such offense to your post; HOWEVA, on several occasions I have noticed that Denard looked a bit slower than before. I just assumed that it was due to adding some muscle.
It's because the OP's assertion is completely ridiculous and baseless. If Denard is getting run down by someone while in a dead sprint then maybe there would be room for questioning. Otherwise the discussion is pointless and an exercise in absurdity. If you want to discuss things like that, take it to MLive or the RCMB, they'll gladly oblige.
I have now seen this sentiment in a few places (Denard getting slower) and I can't think of a single play where he has looked slower than last year. If someone can get a clip of him this year where he looked slower then you might have something, but I don't see it.
There was a play against SDSU where Denard ran up the middle, and then cut sharply to the right. A linebacker/safety type who was chasing the play was already moving in the direction that Denard was cutting, and Denard still pulled away from him. I thought it was a pretty fantastic show of speed.
Literally just saw Denard in the Union for the first time this year. He does look BIGGER. Seriously, I think he's grown at least an inch since I saw him on campus his freshman year. That being said, no he has not lost a step. SDSU should feel lucky they were able to get any hands him at all a few of those plays on Saturday.
Dang guys, calm down. I didn't say he was slow or that I was even concerned. As I said, it just seems like at times he is not as fast, mainly in the EMU and SDSU games. No doubt, he still had a ton of sick jukes/runs. Could be angles by the defense or different types of running lanes this year compared to last.
Perfectly so, that he may not have the flat out sprinting speed he had coming out of HS or his freshman year. He's put on a LOT of muscle, especially in the upper body, which is not ideal for track speed. Have you seen the dudes arms lately? He's still the fastest QB in the B1G, probably in the country, and just added a new facet to his game with the ability to truck defenders. He's stood up well to the hits he's taken this year, and he's gotten popped a few times without result. If bulking up a few pounds in the interest of becoming a more complete athlete at the expense of a few hundredths of a second off his 100m time, well, that's fantastic.
By my count, Denard got into the open field 4 times against SDSU:
- 0:29 - Denard is pulling away from the defender, who dives and catches him on the heel.
- 2:04 - Speed option. Touchdown. Holy shitballs that man is fast
- 3:29 - Denard is pulling away from the defender, who dives and catches him on the ankle.
- 6:46 - Denard slows up to make a cutback, is tackled from behind.
Bottom line: Sure, he was tackled three times from behind in the open field. But on two of those plays he was pulling away, and on the third he slowed up.
Put me down as "unconcerned, thanks."
Anyone see him waving goodbye to Denard as he jets?
Yeah that's a big wave.
Denard is essentially weaving his way while the defender is running a straight line.
So - I don't even think I'd say he was pulling away at that point.
He found daylight 4 times:
- 1:35 - Denard blows by everyone, including the DB who had a bit of an angle.
- 2:06 - Denard pulling away, tackled from the side.
- 3:46 - Bo Jackson TecmoBowl
- 6:43 - (And I REALLY suggest you watch this one) - Denard beats everyone around the edge, but runs out of space on the sideline. The safety had a HUGE angle, and Denard still gained the corner.
Conclusion the 2nd: Still really, really not worried.
On another board, and this is hearsay...but from a guy on the track team that knows Denard. He gained about 10 lbs of muscle since his track days at Michigan...he says that this inevitably would slow him a little bit, but I think it is a worthy trade off if he is a little more durable.
on his blog after the SDSU game. The same thought has occurred to me, but it's really hard to make comparisons from year to year. He's still unbelievably fast in any case.
Denard is the fucking FLASH. Step off.
because we are use to it by now. I mean, we have watched him for 3 years now.
Fred Jackson assured me that Denard 2011 is just like Denard 2010, only faster
Being "caught from behind" does not simply mean a person is tackled from behind. Being caught from behind is when Denard has the open field in front of him and a guy catches him without a pursuit angle. This has never happened and probably won't until he picks off Vick in the NFL and Desean Jackson chases him down.
Denard is as fast as ever and uses his blocks wisely. He needs to slow down and choose a side when the receivers are blocking downfield. When he comes to a near stop, changes direction and starts running again and a cornerback running full speed with an angle is able to dive and graze Denard's ankles it is not time to suggest that Denard has lost a step.
Holy crap. Of all the things to worry about with this team Denard's speed or running ability is dead fucking last.
Well said, my kind sir. Not only has he not slowed down, to me he seems to be quicker and his acceleration is just as explosive as ever if you ask me.
enough points to make my own post so this seems like the perfect place to get my question answered: has anyone else noticed Brady Hoke's points losing their intensity? I mean, when he first showed up he could point and gain recruits, earn alums' favor, and remove the State from Ohio.
just proved your own point. I think the sentiment of most of us is that whether or not Denard is marginally slower than lightning is not a major concern. His accuracy issues/transition under center are another story.
Yes, a bit slower but much stronger. Weighs at least ten more pounds than last year.
It's all because of no Barwis Method....I can not believe this post.
Does anyone know if he still is without laces? I hear nothing about this anymore.
I was gonna start a thread about how Jessica Alba is getting less hot, but I can see that won't fly on this board, nosireebob...
Well, I think she's about to have her second kid, so it's possible...
Whether he's cutting or not, it surprised me that Denard got caught from behind by, for example, Logan Ketchum, a 6'3", 225 lb. linebacker. He passed up Ketchum at the LOS, but Ketchum was able to chase him down. I just don't see that happening last year.
As for the people who say "Denard is just as fast as last year because he ran untouched on the option," I say...I believe Scott Dreisbach ran untouched for a 60-ish yard touchdown back in the mid-'90s. Believe it or not, it is possible for offensive players to make long runs untouched if the plays are well blocked and the defenders are stupid.
Nobody said Denard is slower. People, including me, have suggested he's lost half a step. I know nobody wants to believe anything negative about our superstar player's development, but it wouldn't be the first time that a player lost a little bit of speed.
I'm not saying you're wrong, because it's certainly plausible. But, serious question, what are you basing your conclusion on? Wouldn't we need some kind of reliable measurement from last year and compare it with the same reliable measurement this year?
He looks slower, which is exactly what I said. If you want an electronically timed 40 or something, then no, I don't have any data. But do I think Logan Ketchum would have caught him from behind last year? No.
The one guy caught him because he had an angle and only nicked his foot. If a little extra size makes him more durable but a tad slower it is worth the trade-off.
However I think it is equally likely there is more thought and less reaction in what he is doing and that may make him appear slightly slower. Trying to work in under-center snaps, pocket passing, new routes etc - he is mentally processing a lot as he goes compared to last year.
I don't think "more thought" is what's slowing him down when he's tucked the ball and running in the open field 10 or 15 yards downfield.
I through for a while earlier in the season that Denard had lost a little speed. The I noted the 53 yard touchdown. What is unmistakable about that is how far behind him every single person on the field was by the time he scored. It was sick, and he slowed down toward the end. The difference in Denard this year and last year, is that last year he was like a child driving a Ferrari in Gran Tourismo. Brakes were never applied, and all movement was with the accelerator jammed to the floor. How many times did he spin out or run into tackles last year where if he would have slowed a step he could have gotten that last block and really uncorked something. This year, he lets the play develope and come to him. He's not getting caught from behind more this year either. Those trips come from guys taking a much better pursuit angle this year, and still he has almost outrun their angles. The one in the SDSU game, if that guy's hand hadn't swiped at the just the right second when Denard's leg was back, he would have taken it to the house. Also, he had slowed on that play for a block on a safety to develop.