Home
i'm an actor, not a reactor

Primary links

  • About
    • $upport (lol)
    • Ethics
    • FAQ
    • Glossary
    • Privacy Policy
  • Contact
  • MGoStore
    • Hail to Old Blue
  • MGoBoard
    • MGoBoard FAQ
    • Michigan bar locator
    • Moderator Action Sticky
  • Useful Stuff
    • Depth Chart By Class
    • Hoops Depth Chart by Class
    • 2017 Recruiting Board
    • Unofficial Two Deep
    • MGoFlickr
    • Diaries, Windows Live Writer, And You
    • User-Curated HOF
    • Where To Eat In Ann Arbor
  • Schedule/Tix
    • Future Schedules (wiki)
    • Ticket spreadsheet
Home Forums MGoBoard

Navigation

  • Forums
  • Recent posts

User login

  • Create new account
  • Request new password

MGoElsewhere

  • @MGoBlog (Brian)
  • @aceanbender
  • @Misopogon (Seth)
  • @Aeschnepp (Adam)
  • @BISB
  • @EUpchurchPhoto
  • @FullOfTwitt (Fuller)
  • Hail to the Victors 2016
  • MGoFacebook
  • MGoPodcast
  • WTKA
  • Instagram

Michigan Blogs

  • Big House Blog
  • Burgeoning Wolverine Star
  • Genuinely Sarcastic
  • Go Blue Michigan Wolverine
  • Holdin' The Rope
  • MVictors
  • Maize 'n' Blue Nation
  • Maize 'n' Brew
  • Maize And Go Blue
  • Michigan Hockey Net
  • MMMGoBlueBBQ
  • The Blog That Yost Built
  • The Hoover Street Rag
  • The M Zone
  • Touch The Banner
  • UMGoBlog
  • UMHoops
  • UMTailgate
  • Wolverine Liberation Army

M On The Net

  • mgovideo
  • MGoBlue.com
  • Mike DeSimone
  • Recruiting Planet
  • The Wolverine
  • Go Blue Wolverine
  • Winged Helmet
  • UMGoBlue.com
  • MaizeRage.org
  • Puckhead
  • The M Den
  • True Blue Fan Forum

Big Ten Blogs

  • Illinois
    • Illinois Loyalty
    • Illinois Baseball Report
  • Indiana
    • Inside The Hall
    • The Crimson Quarry
  • Iowa
    • Black Heart, Gold Pants
    • Fight For Iowa
  • Michigan State
    • The Only Colors
  • Minnesota
    • GopherHole.com
    • The Daily Gopher
  • Nebraska
    • Corn Nation
    • Husker Max
    • Husker Mike's Blasphemy
    • Husker Gameday
  • Northwestern
    • Sippin' On Purple
    • Lake The Posts
  • Notre Dame
    • The House Rock Built
    • One Foot Down
  • Ohio State
    • Eleven Warriors
    • Buckeye Commentary
    • Men of the Scarlet and Gray
    • Our Honor Defend
    • The Buckeye Nine
  • Penn State
    • Slow States
    • Black Shoe Diaries
    • Happy Valley Hardball
    • Penn State Clips
    • Linebacker U
    • Nittany White Out
  • Purdue
    • Boiled Sports
    • Hammer and Rails
  • Wisconsin
    • Bruce Ciskie

Links of Note

  • Baseball
    • College Baseball Today
    • The College Baseball Blog
  • Basketball
    • Ken Pomeroy
    • Hoop Math
    • John Gasaway
    • Luke Winn/Sports Illustrated
  • College Hockey
    • Chris Heisenberg (Class of 2016)
    • College Hockey Stats
    • Michigan College Hockey
    • Hockey's Future
    • Sioux Sports
    • USCHO
  • Football
    • Smart Football
    • Every Day Should Be Saturday
    • Matt Hinton/Grantland
    • Football Study Hall
    • Football Outsiders
    • Harold Stassen
    • NCAA D-I Stats Page
    • The Wizard Of Odds
    • CFB Stats
  • General
    • Sports Central
  • Local Interest
    • The Ann Arbor Chronicle
    • Arborwiki
    • Arbor Update
    • Ann Arbor Observer
    • Teeter Talk
    • Vacuum
  • Teams Of The D
    • Lions
      • Pride of Detroit
    • Pistons
      • Detroit Bad Boys
      • Need4Sheed
    • Tigers
      • Roar Of The Tigers
      • Bless You Boys
      • The Daily Fungo
      • The Detroit Tigers Weblog
    • Red Wings
      • Winging It In Motown
      • On The Wings
    • Michigan Sports Forum

Beveled Guilt

Site Search

Diaries

  • New
  • Popular
  • Hot
  • This Month in MGoBlog History - April 2008: No Spring Game at the Big House! Hockey loses to ND in the Frozen Four!
    Maize.Blue Wagner - 4 days ago
  • Thirteen unlucky minutes (TL;DNR-This is a bit of rant about the refs)
    docwhoblocked - 2 weeks ago
  • Fan Satisfaction Index End of Season Bball Survey
    OneFootIn - 3 weeks ago
  • How likely are we to revert to the mean?
    Bo Glue - 3 weeks ago
  • It's time to avenge Villanova's 1985 NCAA tourney upset over Michigan
    Communist Football - 3 weeks ago
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more
  • This Month in MGoBlog History - April 2008: No Spring Game at the Big House! Hockey loses to ND in the Frozen Four!
    Maize.Blue Wagner - 1,328 views
  • 14 Months Ago: The Fire Beilein Threads.
    stephenrjking - 237 comments
  • This Month in MGoBlog History - April 2008: No Spring Game at the Big House! Hockey loses to ND in the Frozen Four!
    Maize.Blue Wagner - 8 comments

MGoBoard

  • New
  • Recent
  • Hot
  • New Q&A with Cam McGrone, video
    0 replies
  • Rice Commission recommendations to be released today
    24 replies
  • MBB: Wake Forest grad transfer PG Keyshawn Woods commits to OSU
    9 replies
  • Harmoniously OT: UM Men's Glee Club in AZ
    16 replies
  • Coach B w Andy Katz podcast
    3 replies
  • Michigan Alumni Club Scholarship Golf Tournament featuring Honorary Chair Glen Rice - This Saturday in Miami!
    5 replies
  • Hello? Boring Tuesday POSbang Happy Hour Thread
    114 replies
  • OT: UCL Semi-final First Legs
    14 replies
  • More evidence of awful culture at MSU, volleyball this time
    61 replies
  • OT: Rick Pitino Rumored to be Candidate for Detroit Mercy Job
    79 replies
  • New Jersey DE Aeneas DiCosmo: Prospect we should all want at UM
    55 replies
  • In-state recruiting rankings update
    125 replies
  • A piece of U-M broadcast history ends tonight.
    28 replies
  • Crootin': Joey Velazquez
    78 replies
  • OT: College Football video games coming back
    90 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 6
  • ››
  • Harmoniously OT: UM Men's Glee Club in AZ
    16 replies
  • Rice Commission recommendations to be released today
    24 replies
  • Coach B w Andy Katz podcast
    3 replies
  • New Q&A with Cam McGrone, video
    0 replies
  • Hello? Boring Tuesday POSbang Happy Hour Thread
    114 replies
  • More evidence of awful culture at MSU, volleyball this time
    61 replies
  • MBB: Wake Forest grad transfer PG Keyshawn Woods commits to OSU
    9 replies
  • In-state recruiting rankings update
    125 replies
  • Michigan Alumni Club Scholarship Golf Tournament featuring Honorary Chair Glen Rice - This Saturday in Miami!
    5 replies
  • OT: Rick Pitino Rumored to be Candidate for Detroit Mercy Job
    79 replies
  • New Jersey DE Aeneas DiCosmo: Prospect we should all want at UM
    55 replies
  • A piece of U-M broadcast history ends tonight.
    28 replies
  • Pep and Partridge Pressers
    11 replies
  • OT: UCL Semi-final First Legs
    14 replies
  • Crootin': Joey Velazquez
    78 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 6
  • ››
  • Belleville coach Jermain Crowell mad at UM again
    244 replies
  • "Being Not-Rich at UM" Guide
    168 replies
  • The Evolution of Commerce - What Industries are Dying, What's Thriving?
    148 replies
  • Pep Hamilton on Shea: Can extend the play, make all the throws, plus other QB's
    129 replies
  • In-state recruiting rankings update
    125 replies
  • OT - Jalen Hurts possibly looking to transfer
    121 replies
  • Notre Dame Spring Game: analysis from M n B, video
    119 replies
  • Hello? Boring Tuesday POSbang Happy Hour Thread
    114 replies
  • No additional protest of Shea Patterson appeal by Ole Miss
    113 replies
  • OT: MSU digs hole deeper, Engler adviser: Nassar survivor's claims of payout 'fake news'
    106 replies
  • Nebraska football
    105 replies
  • OT: Map of college stadiums that sell alcohol
    96 replies
  • Karsen Barnhart - did we cool on him?
    92 replies
  • OT: College Football video games coming back
    90 replies
  • UCF Knights unveil 2017 championship banner
    89 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 6
  • ››

Support MGoBlog: buy stuff at Amazon

Denard shockingly efficient under center

55 posts / 0 new
Login or register to post comments
Last post
September 13th, 2012 at 12:10 PM
#1
AAK15
AAK15's picture
Joined: 01/02/2011
MGoPoints: 271
Denard shockingly efficient under center

Robinson has completed 46 of 70 passes from under center in his career. That's a 65.7 percent completion rate. As if that weren't eye-catching enough, consider this: As a dropback quarterback, Robinson has thrown 12 touchdowns and only one interception and has a passer efficiency rating of 197.9 under center.

 

Good article from ESPN analyzing Denard's QB play under center vs. out of the shotgun. 

http://espn.go.com/colleges/michigan/football/story/_/id/8355546/denard-robinson-shockingly-efficient-center

 

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
Tags:
  • MGoBoard

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
September 13th, 2012 at 12:12 PM
#2
uniqenam
uniqenam's picture
Joined: 07/20/2009
MGoPoints: 4424
NO IDIOT ONLY RUN DENARD FROM

NO IDIOT ONLY RUN DENARD FROM SHOTGUN ONLY NEANDERTHALS USE UNDER CENTER SPREAD 4 LYFE!!!!!!!!

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:37 PM
(Reply to #2) #3
profitgoblue
profitgoblue's picture
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 19557
IIRC, the

IIRC, the discussion/argument regarding shotgun vs. under-center focused entirely on the rushing attack, not the passing game.  At least that was my understanding of it.

 

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:03 PM
(Reply to #15) #4
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 42199
Not really.

There's been a lot of discussion on how we should never be under center, and what is the point of it outside of short yardage situations. And many have countered that a lot of those under center pass plays, particularly the play action, see to work pretty well, so there is SOME reason to do it, even if it isn't your primary offense.  It's also been said that "Denard can see things out of the pass from the shotgun better" and "if Tom Brady can do it, why does ANYONE snap under the center...what's the advantage?"  Now I know that's not all from Brian, but it's from people who take what Brian beats out of his drum over and over, and then run with it.

If you can find any passage that says SHOTGUN NOW, FOREVER, AND ALWAYS....(unless you're going to pass the ball), your memory might be right. But I don't recall it framed solely in that aspect. That may have been the primary reason for it, but I don't remember any acknowledgement of exceptions.

Though I am curious how this information will be discussed.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:48 PM
(Reply to #23) #5
Blue in Seattle
Blue in Seattle's picture
Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 1694
everything has pros and cons

This article from SmartFootball was very enlightening for me, and if you scoll down to the section that lists the pros and cons of Shotgun versus Under Center, it could help to give explanations for Denard in his passer improvement and growth.

 

The Shotgun, The 'Gun, and the Shotgun Spread Offense

you have to scroll past what they call the landmark game in the Northwestern vs Michigan 54-51 game.  And if you don't like reading about Michigan defenses that can't contain a rushing attack, then you need to scroll past that.

But I'm going with a conclusion of, being under center helps the less experienced QB in his reads, since he never has to take his eyes off the defense.  I don't know if how many on the blog have played football at any level and tried to snap the ball, but under center snapping is all done by "touch" and allows a lot of control incidentally on changing the snap count over shotgun which is all sight, and a little sound.

So going on the tangent of Brian's critique about "change the snap count", I don't think he realizes how difficult that really is for shotgun.  But reading up on it, yes it can be accomplished, but it's yet another technique that must be practiced.  And Borges does not have unlimited time to practice with these players.  He must pick and choose which element to practice and when.  I think this also plays into the statistic evidence that players with more experience in a system get better, and have most improvement from year one to year two.

Don't forget that last year everyone on the team seemed to improve week by week.  That is a reflection on these coaches.  Where ever we think Michigan as a team is now, they will be better week by week.  And have two more games before their goal is impacted.

 

 

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:48 PM
(Reply to #23) #6
profitgoblue
profitgoblue's picture
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 19557
You're right - I never

You're right - I never noticed a glaring disclaimer inserted either.  I (and most of us?) just always assumed that the shotgun vs. under-center discussion focused first and foremost on the effectiveness of the run game.  Maybe its because Denard was always going to be a better runner so it was assumed that whatever made the run game better was the way to proceed. 

I'm no apologist, chronie, champion, or cheerleader (I'm just an unpaid minion) but the above kinds of "HAHAHAHA, YOU WERE WRONG" comments (not yours), and whether they are focused at Brian, you, me, or whomever and on whatever topic, are annoying.  Its like my wife refusing to do something and then yelling "why did you do that?" at me if I mess it up.  Annoying.

 

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 2:10 PM
(Reply to #35) #7
2plankr
Joined: 03/13/2009
MGoPoints: -433
I feel the same way about

I feel the same way about criticisms of our OC from people who have never coached a day in their life, or played a down of college football

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 2:27 PM
(Reply to #37) #8
gbdub
gbdub's picture
Joined: 02/16/2010
MGoPoints: 12685
And I feel the same way about

And I feel the same way about guys who played a little ball in high school or college and think that makes them unassailable experts on all aspects of the game.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 2:37 PM
(Reply to #39) #9
profitgoblue
profitgoblue's picture
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 19557
At the end of the day, its

At the end of the day, its really all about delivery.  The Board functions at its peak when people set forth information and "arguments" in a way that provokes thoughtful discussion.  All that comments like "hahaha, you're wrong" or "I told you so!" do is start flame wars and then it causes lots of work for the mods.  Say it in the sort of way that user ross03 did below and we've got ourselves a good discussion brewing!

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 2:54 PM
(Reply to #39) #10
2plankr
Joined: 03/13/2009
MGoPoints: -433
Who are you referring to

Who are you referring to exactly?

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 3:36 PM
(Reply to #35) #11
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 42199
I don't think this makes Brian "wrong"

I'd still guess the net gain of the run threat on the majority of plays makes Denard overally more productive from the shotgun. But there was an undercurrent of "why even have plays from under center", and even if under center is going to be primarily used as a passing formation (which beyond these stats have anecdotally seemed to have pretty good success) then you're going to have to run it from those formations on occasion, even if it doesn't work really well, just to keep defenses honest, so they don't think "I-Formation = pass play."  Same way where if you pull of 8 yards a carry on 1st down a couple of times, you're eventually going to have to pass it, so it's not all sell out to the run every 1st down.  We've done that, and it's not been very popular.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:45 PM
(Reply to #2) #12
MGoSteelers
MGoSteelers's picture
Joined: 06/19/2011
MGoPoints: 3560
(No subject)

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:12 PM
#13
MGoblu8
MGoblu8's picture
Joined: 08/19/2010
MGoPoints: 7267
Honestly, I would never have

Honestly, I would never have thought that was the case. Well, I learned something today.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:12 PM
#14
dothepose
dothepose's picture
Joined: 12/30/2008
MGoPoints: 7480
I wonder how our running

I wonder how our running backs do when he is under center compared to when we are in the shotgun.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
(Reply to #4) #15
death by trident
death by trident's picture
Joined: 08/31/2011
MGoPoints: 6071
 

 

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:13 PM
#16
Baldbill
Baldbill's picture
Joined: 04/09/2009
MGoPoints: 3579
Oh no you didn't just go use

Oh no you didn't just go use data to refute our irrational thoughts about our dilithium enhanced QB.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:13 PM
#17
goblueatkettering
goblueatkettering's picture
Joined: 12/17/2008
MGoPoints: 2885
I'm impressed.  ESPN actually

I'm impressed.  ESPN actually did some research and reported something interesting and relevant.

Cheers.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:26 PM
(Reply to #6) #18
ND Sux
Joined: 10/01/2009
MGoPoints: 14978
...and it WASN'T about

an ess eee see team. 

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:19 PM
#19
ShruteBeetFarms
ShruteBeetFarms's picture
Joined: 09/25/2010
MGoPoints: 63137
So this means he's guaranteed

to be a first round draft pick as a qb right?

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:59 PM
(Reply to #7) #20
turtleboy
turtleboy's picture
Joined: 04/22/2011
MGoPoints: 17692
Well he channels his inner

Well he channels his inner Tebow after every touchdown, so there's a chance.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 3:20 PM
(Reply to #36) #21
redhousewolverine
Joined: 08/17/2010
MGoPoints: 1036
I'm pretty sure Tebow

I'm pretty sure Tebow plaguerized that from Denard.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:22 PM
#22
ross03
Joined: 08/06/2009
MGoPoints: 209
Interesting

I find this very interesting.  Maybe this explains why Borges continued to run from under center last year despite it not working well as Brian pointed out several times.   If he realized Denard was a much better passer out of the I then it would make sense to run out of that formation some as well - otherwise it's a sure tip of run vs. pass.  

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:29 PM
#23
LandryHD
Joined: 07/04/2008
MGoPoints: 4647
70 times in 3.2 years... not

70 times in 3.2 years... not very many. Think about all the passing plays that have been ran from under the center. The 2 that really stick out to me are screens and play action to the TE.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:06 PM
(Reply to #10) #24
redhousewolverine
Joined: 08/17/2010
MGoPoints: 1036
Exactly. Only about 1/9 of

Exactly. Only about 1/9 of his passes come from under center. Not to say that he isn't efficient under center, but what plays, particularly passing plays, are we running from under center and when do we use under center the most (often near the endzone)? PA to TE's, ala Kevin Koger being president of Koger land against Ohio last year; easy throw to make. Or how about his woefully underthrown PA pass to Watson, I believe, that was a TD against Northwestern. Although that was a TD and a completion that was a significant indication of Denard's bad mechanics in passing. Granted this might explain why we run from I-Form, to allow us to continue passing from the I-Form, but it doens't explain why we run a 5'6 175 pound Vincent Smith from under center. Insightful but still really isn't that groundbreaking as it just shows why we occasionally utilize a less effective play to be able to have the option of using a more effective one later.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:30 PM
#25
Babu
Joined: 08/07/2011
MGoPoints: 86
Sophmore year: Denard

Sophmore year: Denard operates almost exclusively out of shotgun.

Junior year: Improve naturally as passer and run out of center sometimes.

Lump the stats together...

...Profit!

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:42 PM
(Reply to #11) #26
cheesheadwolverine
Joined: 10/25/2008
MGoPoints: 4386
Right -- and this raises

Right -- and this raises broader causation/correlation issues.   Is there a systematic difference in the situations in which under-center plays are called (short yardage situations with a heavy box and easily exploitable secondary for instance).  Don't get me wrong this is great information and really destroys the NEVER UNDER CENTER bias that I picked up from Brian, but without filtering out some extraneous variables, it doesn't quite prove that "Denard is more effective under center."

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:19 PM
(Reply to #17) #27
turd ferguson
turd ferguson's picture
Joined: 12/09/2009
MGoPoints: 26489
Agreed.  I've never bought

Agreed.  I've never bought the "never under center" stuff (partly b/c of causation/correlation issues, partly b/c of other potential short-term and long-term benefits, etc.), and I'm equally unconvinced that this is definitive evidence that Denard should be under center much more than he is. 

It's an interesting question that's worth exploring, but I think people jump to a particular solution/conclusion much too quickly sometimes, given the available data.  This one actually might be semi-answerable with enough data and some nicely specified models.

More broadly, I love this site, but when it comes to scheme and other football-related stuff, in the absence of amazing evidence I'll trust Hoke/Borges/Mattison ten times out of ten over Brian/Ace/others.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 2:36 PM
(Reply to #30) #28
gbdub
gbdub's picture
Joined: 02/16/2010
MGoPoints: 12685
Sample size, sample size,

Sample size, sample size, sample size. 70 passes is what, two or three games worth for an always-under-center QB? And we're comparing that to the much larger set of all of Denard's throws, including 2009/2010, when he never was under center at all?



Brian's analysis was definitely run focused, but that did seem to show that both the RBs and Denard were nearly useless from under center, while Denard has thrown good balls from both center and shotgun.



That said, I think Debard can throw reasonably well under center and he seems to do better with quick reads than scramble improv throws, but the play action game will always be suboptimal till we get a good under-center running game, which has yet to materialize.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 4:17 PM
(Reply to #40) #29
imafreak1
imafreak1's picture
Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 1743
Those numbers for the 70

Those numbers for the 70 passes are great w/o any comparison to 2010 or 2009. Last year Denard threw for 20 TDs. A large percentage of those were the 12 under center TDs he has thrown.

This does not necessarily mean Denard should pass from under center more but it definitely means that one should think twice before mocking under center plays. For instance, those "nearly useless" runs set up those very successful passes.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:31 PM
#30
EGD
EGD's picture
Joined: 09/16/2009
MGoPoints: 26584
Situations

Most west coast passing plays are predicated on a 5-step drop.  The QB is supposed to make his reads during the drop and release the ball as soon as his foot hits the turf on the last step.  So, from a timing standpoint, it isn't surprising that a QB would be more efficient from under center in a WCO.  Overall, the shotgun formation makes Denard more of a threat because he can run or pass, but this data does suggest it may be preferable for him to go under center on obvious passing downs.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:32 PM
#31
Soulfire21
Soulfire21's picture
Joined: 03/18/2010
MGoPoints: 14528
Wouldn't have guessed

But the article is spot on... More snaps from center mean Robinson's run threat is diminished, and that is the primary reason to go out of shotgun

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:36 PM
#32
FreddieMercuryHayes
Joined: 12/29/2010
MGoPoints: 35030
Maybe this is why Borges

Maybe this is why Borges insists on the futile under center run game; actually makes play-action from under center work.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:39 PM
#33
meechiganroses
meechiganroses's picture
Joined: 11/06/2009
MGoPoints: 700
My god am I going to miss Denard

ALL OF MY SADNESS

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:44 PM
#34
AAK15
AAK15's picture
Joined: 01/02/2011
MGoPoints: 271
My theory:

Denard struggles more in shotgun because his mind is racing to make the right decisions (as opposed to technique, knowledge, etc.) because he has to wonder "do I hand off? did the end crash? do I give up and run? is the pocket collapsing? is my 1 receiver open? do I check down?" whereas under center all he has to do is 3 step drop, check 1 and throw, or check down and throw.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:46 PM
#35
death by trident
death by trident's picture
Joined: 08/31/2011
MGoPoints: 6071
ESPN comments lol

The ESPN comments always amuse me.  In an article about how Denard is an improved passer, and very lethal from under center with Borges, we get this comment -

 

Denard is most lethal in space. What I've never understood is the hesitancy to mix up packages to feature him as a RB. Of course in doing so Denard would have to block and Michigan would require another QB threat, but it'd be an interesting formation to roll out with to confuse opponents and put Robinson in the best possible position to eviscerate opposing defenses.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:03 PM
(Reply to #21) #36
orobs
Joined: 10/03/2010
MGoPoints: 3205
Even better, why not toss it

Even better, why not toss it to him out of the tailback position.  Then he'll have option to throw it OR run it...almost as if he were a dual threat thrower-back or something!

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:43 PM
(Reply to #21) #37
LSAClassOf2000
LSAClassOf2000's picture
Joined: 01/07/2011
MGoPoints: 81402
Then Again...

I am guessing this person asked themselves, "Why wouldn't you want to give the ball to your most prolific rusher?"

Oh wait...

Good article though, and quite illuminating. It basically underscores how unique a player Denard Robinson really is and how they try to balance the multiple ways he can beat defenses. It is good to see the under center stats separated out, because it does show people that he's got a good arm and can effectively throw. I imagine that Denard Robinson is probably the best problem that Al Borges ever had simply because of what he can potentially do with him at QB (opening chapters of the playbook that might never see daylight otherwise), and it is good to see ESPN recognize this.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 2:17 PM
(Reply to #21) #38
MichFan1997
MichFan1997's picture
Joined: 08/04/2008
MGoPoints: 10339
so that person

Wants him to line up as a running back on runs? That means someone hands him the ball, and it gives him one less blocker. Uh, hello, he can run now when we do that snap the ball straight to him thing. My word, ESPN poster. I hope you read this thread and realize how dumb that sounds.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 3:16 PM
(Reply to #21) #39
MGoCombs
MGoCombs's picture
Joined: 08/13/2009
MGoPoints: 3841
I think there is also this

I think there is also this misunderstanding that he throws better on the run, which is contrary to my anecdotal evidence. I actually commented on a comment (I don't really ever comment on ESPN because it's pointless) because I see this statement all of the time: We need to roll him out more. Usually when I see Denard roll out, I am completely terrified. He is less effective scrambling because, contrary to popular belief, he has actually shrunk the amount of field he can work with, not "in space." He also seems to make his worst throws this way.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 12:59 PM
#40
Tyang
Joined: 09/14/2011
MGoPoints: 412
Throw a bubble screen to

Throw a bubble screen to Denard and he's gone!

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:03 PM
(Reply to #22) #41
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 42199
Is that pass coming out of the shotgun

Or under center?

I'm so confused...

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:07 PM
#42
MCalibur
MCalibur's picture
Joined: 07/16/2009
MGoPoints: 2670
Better Pocket / Protection?

I think this makes a lot of sense and aligns with some observations people have made in the past. When Denard has the time to set his feet and step into his throw, his accuracy had been fine. On the run or under pressure, he has shown a tendency to throw off his back foot and then well, bad things happen more often. I guess you could say that about any QB though.

So, apparently DR is a more effective passer from under center, but as others have pointed out the more intriguing and harder to answer question is whether or not he is a more effective player from under center. Beyond that, what formation is most effetive for the offense as a whole...etc.

NEvertheless, good stuff for discussion

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:08 PM
#43
Seattle Maize
Seattle Maize's picture
Joined: 03/24/2011
MGoPoints: 302
People around here bash

People around here bash Borges for everything but what they don't talk about is that he is in the process of totally transforming an offense for the future and even then has managed to put up over 30 ppg. Along the way he has taken a pure runner and turned him into much more of a dual threat and the Michigan offense has been better for it.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:45 PM
(Reply to #28) #44
ryebreadboy
ryebreadboy's picture
Joined: 12/02/2010
MGoPoints: 5894
Uh, what? Denard threw pretty

Uh, what? Denard threw pretty damn well under RR. Granted, it was slants and QB Oh Noes and bubble screens, but I'm just saying. He was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a pure runner.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 3:09 PM
(Reply to #33) #45
Seattle Maize
Seattle Maize's picture
Joined: 03/24/2011
MGoPoints: 302
There's more to being a good

There's more to being a good passer than just passing stats - under RR Denard couldn't complete a deep ball or anything more than a screen or short throw against any defense with a pulse. It's pretty clear that he is a much better passer now than he was a couple years ago

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 1:28 PM
#46
BiSB
BiSB's picture
Joined: 08/15/2009
MGoPoints: 44839
Too many variables

UNLEASH THE MATHLETE KRACKEN

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 2:54 PM
#47
CRex
CRex's picture
Joined: 09/28/2009
MGoPoints: 9002
I think the whole shotgun vs

I think the whole shotgun vs under center argument is somewhat missing the real issue.  For the past two years, Michigan beat you running.  At first it was all the Denard show.  Then we had the one/two punch of Denard/Fitz.  Teams will get that memo.  I think Alabama was the best of example of it, they came out configured to stop the run from anyone and did just that.  Air Force is harder to judge in the fact we pretty much took advantage of short DBs and exploited the hell out of that.  

Undercenter pocket passing does need to happen, even with someone like Denard.  Show all the D-Coord that "Alright, go ahead and load that box up and focus on stopping the runs and shorter routes, we'll just air it out."  Basically show that Denard can throw the deep routes with enough accuracy to punish you if you leave a guy one on one with Devin or D. Funch.  Otherwise it will be 8 or 9 in the box every play and our O-Line isn't good enough to blow through that logjam of players.  

We'll see what we do against Notre Dame.  If Kelly just copies Saban's defense, we need to be hitting those deep routes.  If he plays a more balanced style, then Borges needs to be capable of figuring out when we use shotgun and when we go from under center.  

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 6:52 PM
(Reply to #44) #48
Eye of the Tiger
Eye of the Tiger's picture
Joined: 09/14/2009
MGoPoints: 6282
Though

When defenses stack the box, pro-style teams typically go into shotgun so the QB can deliver the ball more quickly. 

Denard may be less accurate in passing situations from the shotgun because he's taking too long to make decisions. We've known for years that he's a bit indecisive, and being under-center may help provide some much-needed discipline in that regard, as it encourages quick reads. 

On the other hand, as Borges says, we just don't run as well under-center, and if we did it too much, we'd get too one-dimensional and defenses would adjust to that.

 

 

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 3:01 PM
#49
Eye of the Tiger
Eye of the Tiger's picture
Joined: 09/14/2009
MGoPoints: 6282
Borges says it perfectly in that article

 

"I don't monitor those numbers like that but I know the under-center play has been pretty productive," Borges said. "He's asked for more under-center plays, but the problem with that is it takes him out a little bit as a runner. So we're hesitant to do too much of that.

"But we still feature it and he's been very good when we've used it with the run and pass."

Seems like the coaching staff knows what they're doing with this stuff, no?

 

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 3:51 PM
#50
MGoClimb
MGoClimb's picture
Joined: 07/31/2012
MGoPoints: 5581
Well well, you learn

Well well, you learn something new everyday.  It's nice to see some actual numbers behind what has actually been happening.  

Agreed with what CRex pointed out above, to beat the better teams in the Big Ten and other teams, we will have to utilize the downfield passing game so that opposing defenses don't throw 8-9 in the box to stop the run.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 7:45 PM
#51
ChopBlock
ChopBlock's picture
Joined: 12/11/2011
MGoPoints: 2434
Elephant in the room

only tangentially related, but

AL BORGES WHY U NO RUN TRANSCONTINENTAL?

You couldn't imagine better personnel to run the transcon screen. You've got a converted quarterback playing wide reciever and the "most dangerous player in the Big Ten and perhaps in the country" at quarterback.

A guy why can actually throw the screen, and a guy who can take it to the house in the time it takes you to snooze: that's the perfect combo.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
September 13th, 2012 at 8:37 PM
(Reply to #53) #52
EGD
EGD's picture
Joined: 09/16/2009
MGoPoints: 26584
Transcontinental

We should make the transcontinental our base play and then when teams cheat to stop it, we run up the middle.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system
Theme provided by Roopletheme; sidebars adapted from Chris Murphy.