Defensive 2 deep next year - choose your own adventure
Let's do something that's NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE (see tag) and predict the volatile defense next year. With the return of Woolfolk, the uncertainty of where to place Cam and the megacluster at Spur it seems like the possibilities are endless. In writing this list, for some reason I felt pretty good about next year. I sense a big jump upcoming. I'm leaving out the next year's recruiting class because it is uncertain.
NT: Martin (please God stay) / Campbell
DT/DE: Black / ummm Watson? Wilkins?
DE: RVB / ...Paskorz?
MLB: Demens / JBFitz or Bell
OLB: Roh / Herron (edited out MJones, moved to other OLB)
OLB: Cam Gordon or MRob or MJones / Hawthorne
Spur: Prison Abs or Carvin or Cam Gordon or MRob / Furman
Bandit: Kovacs / one of the Spur battle royale losers
Corner: Floyd / Cullen
Corner: Avery / Talbott
FS: Woolfolk / Vinopal or CB position switcher
I guess the main things I wanna do is get speed at FS - Woolfolk or a former CB - and care less about big hitters back there. It'd be nice if Cam could bulk up and compete with MRob for Mouton's position - I know neither are slated for that spot but I like a pretty fast yet super aggressive and big hitter to occupy that spot. I'm not a fan of Kovacs to MLB and would prefer to keep him as the run stuffing safety. The DL is....pretty thin. If Martin leaves it's not going to be pretty.
Yeah, there's not much to talk about leading up to Indiana. What say you?
September 28th, 2010 at 3:07 PM ^
How can he be any worse?
September 28th, 2010 at 3:10 PM ^
will be fine as Ezeh's replacement next year, but I'd probably stick with Ezeh for now. Continuity and all that. IMO
September 28th, 2010 at 3:15 PM ^
Disagree. I think Demens played well enough last week to warrant some definite PT this weekend. Maybe not starting yet but he'll get more reps.
September 28th, 2010 at 10:57 PM ^
Yep. I'm also starting to think of Ezeh as a liability after watching him play. Way too many mistakes for an upperclassman.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:15 PM ^
I think Demens will end up being a solid player based on the limited time he has been in last week and goal line situations in the past. Wouldn't be totally shocked if he garnered all big ten type consideration in 2012 but no reason to think he is ready to go now. Gerg and RR have their jobs on the line if they thought he was even a slight improvement they would put him in there. Dave Harris didn't really play at this point in his career either and Lawrence Reid and Scott Mclintock werent the greatest LBs we have ever seen.
September 28th, 2010 at 7:14 PM ^
Good lord do we have a lot of Strong Safety sized players that can move.
Does anybody think there is a chance that Carvin moves back to his high school position of FS? It seems that Cam has a little trouble judging balls in the air as a DB (completely different than judging a ball as a WR) but can hit and tackle. WIth a full year under his belt, I think it's possible that Carvin moves back to FS and Cam moves up to a bandit or spur. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
September 29th, 2010 at 1:11 AM ^
Cam is a RS Frosh that played WR last year. I don't know how awesome you would expect someone in his situation to play, but I'd say he hasn't been too bad all things considered. Give him some time before we rule him out as a long term solution at FS.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:10 PM ^
I think you put Woolfolk at Corner and keep Cam Gordon at FS. He's been pretty good other than the 2 TDs in the ND game where he played the ball instead of the receiver. Another year of practice could have him being a true asset to this defense.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:12 PM ^
I just think his speed is more suited for the Mouton position. I think his instincts are pretty damn good but his feet don't take him there fast enough to be playing centerfield. Plus he has the frame to bulk up, looks like.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:22 PM ^
Yeah, I think I'm with you on this, Vinopal made an actual play on the ball from the safety spot in garbage time last week, which I think is encouraging. I'm tentatively hoping he wins the job in the future and Gordon moves to LB where he can hit people and be decent in coverage against TEs.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:28 PM ^
...and be decent in coverage against TEs.
This made me laugh.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:45 PM ^
Well, I mean, non-future NFL All-Pro TEs.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:23 PM ^
There is alot of mystery in throwing Woolfolk into a position. Who knows what type of speed he will have after the injury?
September 28th, 2010 at 3:28 PM ^
and that was a consideration for putting him at FS rather than CB. Obviously, if he can't come back and play safety, then Cam would probably stay put in this scenario and I'd pin all my hopes on MRob bulking up to replace Mouton.
Also, this shows the need to recruit the DL and FS pretty badly. FS in particular - if Cam moves then we are left with Vinopal (who I wouldn't mind starting at all) and possibly a position switcher.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:36 PM ^
with injuries that take you out of a full season. But I'd be rather surprised if Troy didn't come back 100%. It wasn't a knee. And it was a kind of a freak occurrence. Troy will come back, knowing the speed of the game back there, and what kind of speed he needs.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:25 PM ^
That Woolfolk can play next year, sounds like it is a pretty brutal injury to come back from
Also hoping the impending nfl lockout means mike martin is staying no matter how good a season he has
Don't see how a year more of experience for demens or fitzgerald could be worse than current ezeh
probably only real loss is mouton but at least there are options which is not something we've had recently
September 28th, 2010 at 3:29 PM ^
Isn't Prison Abs the nickname for MRob? And I would think that Carvin or Furman would be more likely to bulk up and play OLB than Cam; although I would be surprised to see any of them there in reality.
Also, does anybody think Jake Ryan could be pushing for some PT at MLB? I know he's been under the radar so far, but the hype on him coming out of high school was that he was fundamentally sound and would just need a year or two to bulk up. With the absence of a dominant MLB (at this point) heading into next year, I would think he'd be somewhere in the two deep there.
I'm excited with such a young secondary -- hopefully they can all stay healthy and really form a solid defensive backfield for us.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:32 PM ^
T Gordon, current Spur. I'd like to hear more about Ryan before putting him on the 2 deep but it's certainly a possibility.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:38 PM ^
Ah, thank you. I thought that was the nickname for MRob b/c of that OMG Shirtless pic of him from high school. But I'll take it.
And obviously everything surrounding Ryan at this point would be pure speculation, but if I had to take a gander at him, I would say he seems like he could be a Kovacs type player (gritty, physically undermatched, but knows where he needs to be).
September 28th, 2010 at 3:33 PM ^
woolfolk at corner
September 28th, 2010 at 3:34 PM ^
some posters with the same plea to God that martin stays for his senior year.
i know this is still early but i havent heard any rumblings of martin making the leap to the pros. usually i feel as if there is *some* talk - not always, but some (for instance donovan warren seemed like he might be gone, manny harris was always going to leave with simms...etc).
whats the general consensus with martin? is this fear that he may bolt just general "he is having a good season so he may leave" or is there something more that i just havent heard?
September 28th, 2010 at 3:41 PM ^
comparison to Warren because Martin's exit would be pretty much the exact same. DL is thin as all hell, Martin is the clear best option at the position, leaving as a Junior, and relying instead on an unproven quantity in Campbell (JT Floyd in Warren's case) or freshman-like substances.
I would just hope that Campbell would step in and do as well as Floyd has at corner. Freshman on the DL is not the best thing in the world.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:51 PM ^
From the Daily profile of Martin a couple weeks back:
Now, people are already questioning whether Mike will stay all four years at Michigan. They speculate that he’ll leave early for the NFL Draft — but they don’t know Mighty Mike Martin very well.
“No, he’s going to get that education,” Barry tells them.
Barry is Martin's father. So while things can change seems a good bet he will be back for his senior years under normal circumstances and since the NFLs season is in question make it even better bet he will be back.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:54 PM ^
There was a lengthy article on him in the Daily (linked on the sidebar) in which his parents strongly refuted the idea of him leaving.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:32 PM ^
i figured martin would stay but had nothing to base that on. will have to read that daily article.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:39 PM ^
- If you want to start Cam Gordon at FS, turn to page 34.
- If you want to start Ray Vinopal at FS, turn to page 47.
- If you want to start Troy Woolfolk at FS, turn to page 15.
LIke any Choose Your Own Adventure book, there is a chance that at least one of the choices will lead to your demise.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:44 PM ^
"Vinopal undergoes a botched experimental leg-lengthening surgery and holds himself out of practice pending the outcome of the lawsuit. Michigan's secondary crumbles.
The End"
September 28th, 2010 at 3:55 PM ^
- If you want to start Will Campbell at NT, turn to page 22....death
- If you want to start Richard Ash at NT, turn to page 28....death
- If you're smart enough to cave in and add a white guy 'fro barber to appease Mike Martin, you win.
September 28th, 2010 at 5:13 PM ^
Thank you for creating what I thought this thread would be.
p. 47 "Recruiting rankings don't mean anything because of Mike Hart and Kevin Grady." Ray Vinopal plays competently until he goes insane from hearing the same insipid comment over and over again. During the Ohio State game, he decapitates Brutus Buckeye and then disappears into the wilderness of Eastern Europe. Subsequent picture pages post praises his success for the decapitation in light of his limited physical ability and compliments his gritty technique.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:47 PM ^
with all of that speed, what are the chances a red shirt freshman and freakishly athletic josh furman could play FS? any chance? non at all?
September 28th, 2010 at 3:55 PM ^
i would say that the odds are pretty slim. yes he is very fast and athletic, but his strength seems to be blitzing the qb and playing against the run. while his athleticism may suggest safety, i think his skillset makes him a better fit at spur or in moutons LB position if he can add sufficient weight.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:49 PM ^
I just read an article on Mike Martin and his father is quoted as saying he will stay to finish his education. I hope he is right... MM is my favorite player for Michigan in a while.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:50 PM ^
You have Mike Jones at the wrong OLB. He can't play the same position as Roh. My money is on Herron coming back for a fith year and continuing to back up or play that OLB when Roh drops a hand down.
Mike Jones should then be penciled in as the starter at the other OLB (Mouton's spot). He was the backup there until his injury and see no reason that doesn't continue.
I don't see Cam Gordon or Marvin moving to OLB next year. If anything they move to Spur but wouldn't be surprised to see Marvin stay right way where he is and compete with Kovacs
Talbott I bet makes the 2-deep behind Van Bergen
The log jam next year is at Spur. You will have Carvin, T. Gordon, Hawthorne and Furman definitely competing there with others potentially moving in. I wonder if one of those guys gets pushed back to FS to learn back there.
September 28th, 2010 at 3:55 PM ^
Jones and Herron. Herron should be backing up Roh, as you suggested and Jones would be in the mix at other OLB. I'll update.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:03 PM ^
Some observers seem to think Kovacs is one of the best defenders on the team. If that's the case, there isn't much room for M.Rob. At FS, he's blocked by C.Gordon/Vinopal. At Hybrid, its Johnson/T.Gordon. Seems like a player with his talent and (reported) ability, he'll have to see the field elsewhere.
WLB (Mouton's spot) seems the weakest with only Jones and Leach there.
Then theres the option of moving Kovacs to one of the LB spots.
Too many options to consider when you know the coaches aren't shy about switching players from one spot to another.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:12 PM ^
I understand that he is considered the strongest mental player on the defense but I don't think it can be really questioned that he has physical limitations. I think as Marvin catches up on the mental aspect of the game, his physical abilities will be too much to keep off the field. He may not be the starter over Kovacs next year, but I have to imagine they'll be at least splitting more time than they are now.
And you're absolutely right about shuffling players around, while I am not a huge fan of all the tweeners that have been recruited over the last couple of years, the benefit is that you should be able to shuffle people and find them a spot.
September 28th, 2010 at 5:33 PM ^
but maybe MRob never catches up in the mental aspect.
Anyway, it doesn't have to be a MRob vs. Kovacs situation necessarily. Kovacs may keep himself on the field one way or another. If MRob forces his way into the lineup it might be at FS, Hybrid, or maybe even OLB if he bulks up. Or maybe some of the deficiences elsewhere push Kovacs to LB.
Its unlikely all these projections stay true anyway, otherwise our secondary of Cissoko, Woolfolk, Warren and Turner would be dominating by now.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:43 PM ^
for Roh to bulk up just a little more (at least get stronger/quicker), and move to the DE position to play the line full time with Martin and RVB. Then you could use Fitz or Demens (both are LB's and 240+ lbs now) in Roh's current hybrid spot when you need a 4th lineman....
September 28th, 2010 at 3:54 PM ^
You have to remember that so many of these guys are young and another off-season without a position change will warrent vast improvements. There will be battles to see who starts at the LB spots. Otherwise I don't see a whole lot of change.
Gordon is slower than you want out of a FS, but experience may be more important. Should be his job to lose.
NT: Martin / Campbell
DT/DE: RVB / Black or Paskorz
DE: Roh / Black
MLB: Demens / JBFitz or Ryan
OLB: Herron / Jones
OLB: Bell / Hawthorne / Furman
Spur: Carvin Johnson / Thomas Gordon / MRob
Bandit: MRob or Kovacs
Corner: Floyd / Cullen
Corner: Woolfolk / Avery
FS: Gordon / Vinopal
September 28th, 2010 at 3:56 PM ^
Given the lack of other options, I could see Roh bulk up further and play DE (nearly) full time. He's already moonlighting there. That would shift RVB back to DT.
NT: Martin/Campbell/Ash/
DT: RVB/Talbott/Paskorz
DE: Roh/Black/Heinenger
Assuming Roh vacates the OLB spot, that opens up another position...but one where there seem to be more alternatives than DL.
OLB: Herron/Jones/Fitzgerald/Wilkins/Ryan/etc.
MLB: Demens/?
WLB: C.Gordon/Leach
HYB: Johnson/T.Gordon
CBs: Woolfolk/Floyd/Avery/Christian
SS: Kovacs/M.Rob/Hawthorne
FS: M.Rob/Vinopal
September 28th, 2010 at 4:04 PM ^
Do you think over the next few years, we start to go with a more traditional setup. still keep the same semi hybrid LB...But, with more true options at safety (hopefully) would we get away from the more 335 deal?
September 28th, 2010 at 4:11 PM ^
But have the occasional 4 man front, depending on the offense we're facing.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:05 PM ^
Martin will stay, he has the potential to reach Suh-like proportions next year.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:11 PM ^
Last week UMass hung a whopping 26 on a tough luck Stony Brook squad. Apparently they sealed a 26-21 win with an interception late. Stony Brook is now 1-3, and UMass remains undefeated with the exception of their loss at the Big House.
September 28th, 2010 at 8:51 PM ^
As UMass was to Michigan.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:12 PM ^
But I think the biggest change will come with at least one incoming corner. The second would be an incoming LB, but only on the two deep, not starting.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:19 PM ^
We can probably count on at least 1-2 instant impact true frosh. It's comforting to know that we could theoratically field something resembling a talented (though young) defense without inserting any true frosh, however.
September 28th, 2010 at 4:23 PM ^
NT: Martin / Campbell
DT/DE: RVB / Talbott
DE: Roh / Black
MLB: Demens / Fitz / Ryan
OLB: Herron / Roh
OLB: Jones / Hawthorne / Furman
Spur: Cameron Gordon / Carvin Johnson / Thomas Gordon
Bandit: Kovacs / (Cameron Gordon) / MRob
Corner: Floyd / Cullen
Corner: Avery / Talbott
FS: Woolfolk / Vinopal
Items of note:
- Woolfolk to deep safety
- I think there is enough young talent at CB that (hopefully) one should develop into a viable starter, and Woolfolk will be more needed at FS.
- Cameron Gordon to spur (or possibly to Bandit)
- i think Gordons strengths are better adapted to these positions, rather than deep safety
- I listed him as a spur because i think Kovacs is more entrenched as a starter than Carvin Johnson, and i think the coaches want Gordon on the field.
-Mike Jones to replace Mouton
- he was listed as the backup, prior to his injury. seems like the likely replacement.
- Roh becomes primarily a DE w/ herron at linebacker. Roh will occasionally play LB (herrons spot) with Black at DE
- With an additional yr to add muscle, he should be even more effective from the DE spot
- Furman at OLB
- just because
- actually there just seems to be a lot of depth and spur
- and of all the guys at spur, he seems most likely to move to OLB
- Kovacs starting over MRob
- everyone seems to be rooting for MRob because of his physical superiority
- but Kovacs has been our best and most consistent LB
- plus he has the experience weighing heavily in his favor
September 28th, 2010 at 4:45 PM ^
I don't see that working as a base lineup because it uses 6 players who are DB-sized. None of the players you have replacing Mouton (240) weighs more than 208. We would be especially small if Black (258) replaces Banks (285), which I suspect may be our best option. Young guys usually get bigger, but they don't usually bulk up that much. I might think of it this way:
DL, optimistic scenario
NT: Campbell turns into a starter, backed up by Ash. (This must happen, because Bruce Campbell's character in the Evil Dead movies was named Ash.)
DT/DE: Martin, Talbott. With the looming NFL strike there should be fewer guys leaving early.
DE: RVB, Black, Wilkins.
DL, pessimistic
NT: Martin, Campbell, Ash
DT/DE: RVB, Talbott
DE: Black, Wilkins. This would leave the "front 4" with the same setup as in 2009 but with Black instead of Graham. Of course, Martin, Van Bergen, and Roh will be bigger than they were then.
LB/box safeties
MLB: Demens, Bell, Ryan
OLB: Roh, Paskorz
OLB: Fitzgerald/Herron, Jones. I see Herron playing more on passing downs. At 220 he is a bit small to take over Mouton's role on an every-down basis.
Spur: C Johnson/T Gordon, Furman, Hawthorne
Bandit: Kovacs/M Robinson
Corner/deep safety, C Gordon progresses more than freshman CBs:
Corner: Floyd, Avery
Corner: Woolfolk, Christian, Talbott
FS: C Gordon, Vinopal
Corner/deep safety, C Gordon progresses less than freshman CBs:
Corner: Floyd, Talbott
Corner: Avery/Christian
FS: Woolfolk, C Gordon, Vinopal