Given what we've seen from OSU, and also with today's news about The "U", college football fans are faced with a major question; Should the death penalty ever be used in college football? Given the complete devastation that it caused for SMU, will it ever be used again?
The Death Penalty in College Football
The NCAA has said it would never be used again. It would be too messy, especially for a team in a major conference. It would not be in the NCAA's best financial interests to bar a major program like that.
Did they actually say absolutely never again? Because the death penalty remains in the bylaws. And this Miami business, if largely true, is obviously death penalty material. Especially given Miami's previous scandal.
I think you have to be on probation to begin with to receive the death penalty. Miami's last stint ended a few years ago, IIRC.
The death penalty bylaw reads that it can only be imposed on a repeat violator if their probation came within the last five years of their current major violation. A separate bylaw interpretation says that the NCAA can reach back beyond their statute of limitations to investigate a pattern of closely related behavior. Shapiro's behavior is obviously a ridiculous, habitual pattern. According to the probe from Yahoo!, he started "boosting" in 2001. Miami was placed on 3-year probation in 1995 and got off in 1998. According to my lawyerly statute interpretation, if an NCAA investigation includes violations from 01, 02, or 03, that would be within the 5-year window the NCAA requires to levy the death penalty. It sounds like it will be up to them on whether to drop the hammer, errr, nuclear bomb.
I wouldn't say it's death penalty material. SMU's scandal remains far and above the worst scandal in NCAAF history, where the team violated major rules, got caught, and then were found to be continuing to violate those rules. Miami's scandal is major and will likely result in tough sanctions, but I can't see the NCAA banning them for a year (especially when it seems that the scandal has little/no connection to the current team). Gotta feel for Al Golden, though. Guy works his way through the ranks to get to a major football program and gets slammed like this before his first game
I bet if you dig you'll find that there are more on the team. I believe he was reportedly still giving gifts as late as in 2010. I don't think they should get the death penalty, either, but a firm tap out submission would work just as well. Let's be honest, the NCAA is about money. They can't kill off one of their cash cows no matter how bad of a reputation they have. OSU and Miami are going to get drilled, but not Chernobyl'd.
The University known formerly as "The U" and Osu are too valuable, and have too many potential NFLers on their current rosters, to throw obstacles into the path of all those potential lucrative careers to banish them all to the Sun Belt.
Sean Spence and Ray Ray Armstrong, their two best players on defense, were listed in the article too.
College Football is a "cash cow" for the NCAA, and it's consistently perpetuated, even by that main stream media. Just look at the NCAA's financial reports. Here's one from 2008 (first one that came up in google search, but you can dig into ncaa.org to find most recent.) Almost the entirety of the money the organization brings in is from the TV contract for March Madness. The balance is for miscellaneous stuff like the tournaments it runs.
Football money (TV contracts and Bowl payouts) goes to conferences and subsequently to teams. That's why Slive, Delany, and co. are so powerful. The short of it: while Miami not playing college football wouldn't be a great thing for college football, it would have almost zero impact on the money NCAA organization sees.
That is one of the main obstacles to the playoffs: the NCAA owns the legal rights to a football playoff, but not the bowls.
Bowls = more money for all schools and conferences
Playoffs = more money for NCAA
However, I think football is the life line of the NCAA. If the NCAA hurt football, the schools of importance would simply leave the NCAA and form a more friendly operation.
When things like this happen they should all get the same penalty. 2 year bowl ban, 10 scholarships lost per year for 3 years. Essentially neuters the program for 5 years. I think that is a very big deterrent.
"Things like this" seems pretty vague. Do you mean any sort of recruiting violations at all, no matter how many players are involved or how knowledgeable the coaching staff and the institution were or when the violations occurred?
Even though a neat little standard punishment would make us all feel better about the arbitrariness of the NCAA's enforcement mechanisms, I think this is an area where you need to allow for maximum nuance and flexibility.
Is that really enough to neuter an OSU?
I think so but for arguments sake can we agree on the removal of one ball?
They mentioned it would be extreme circumstances that it would be used. I think that this stuff is only going to get worse. They should use it. Make an example of a school, prove a point and scare the rest of the nation straight for a while. Doing it to a big program is the only way to do it too. You can't give another SMU size school the death penalty. Slap it on Ohio, Auburn or The U... now you're talking.
I don't agree. I think it hurts too many other people and other teams in the conference. See my other response above.
They have in fact mentioned that they might use the death penalty. Both in the Baylor MBB case and the last Alabama case they said they didn't use it because of actions taken by the school subsequent to their infractions. It's pretty clear they look for reasons not to use it
There have been people saying the NCAA will never use the death penalty again, but that's always been their speculation, not from the NCAA itself.
True, but the pattern (granted it was used once) was for the death penalty to apply to (1) repeat offenders and (2) multiple sports. Clearly the multiple sports is met, if allegations are true (stemming from Frank Haith - basketball - and football). The repeat offender status is a bit more dicey. There is no indication that the U was previously on probation in recent memory. In fact, Randy Shannon had cleaned up the program, or so it seemed.
1. SMU was in a major conference. It wasn't the SEC or the Big Ten by any means, but a conference with UT, Texas A&M, Arkansas, and TTech probably wouldn't be considered a CUSA type substance that it's in now.
2. Miami and SMU have very similar cases. SMU was paying players with coaches complicit in the dealings. They were caught and didn't seriously institute reforms. Miami did the same thing, and it happend through their probationary period. The infractions are on the same massive scale that SMU was on.
In essence, this is like USC x 30 or 40. USC was found guilty based on 1 player recieving massive improper benefits with a coach who know or should have known about it. Miami will find the same thing, only with 20+ first round picks over 10+ years and 6+ coaches who were in on it.
SMU got it particularly bad. I could see Miami getting the death penalty, just not to the extent SMU did. For instance, banned from playing games for a season, some scholarship losses (not 55 like SMU's ban, though), and a 3+ year bowl ban with 5 years probation. However, allow the team to practice in pads during season (if the NCAA *can* allow that).
That's just an example, but basically something like that.
No, there is one specific sanction nicknamed the "death penalty" - shutting down the program for a year (or more). SMU is the only program to have ever received it.
Kentucky's basketball program got hit with it in the 1950s, Southern Louisianna basketball got hit in the 1970s, and a few division two/three schools have gotten it for other sports as well.
Also, SMU got much more than just a ban from competing. They got a 55 scholarship reduction, an assistant coach reduction, a ban on recruiting for a season (this may be included in the actual death penalty law; I'll admit I haven't read it), probation, and a bowl/TV ban past the season bans. Plus they were banned for two seasons (although the second was only banned from home games), not just one.
I just want to make sure that when people are considering whether or not the NCAA wll issue the death penalty, they know it's only the ban on playing a season; we aren't necessarily talking SMU like sanctions yet. Close, obviously, but not quite.
death penalty-- Morehouse's men's soccer program and MacMurray's men's tennis program-- were not on probation and had no prior violations before the axe fell on them. The NCAA ruled that the violations and lack of institutional control in those cases were so egregious that competition bans were required. Now, it's very difficult to see the NCAA handing down a similar penalty to an FBS football program, particularly one as prominent as Miami, but the school's past history may come into play here. Miami drew some of the harshest penalties in NCAA history in 1995, after an investigation that revealed institutional wrongdoing on a level considerably worse than what's been alleged against the Hurricanes by Yahoo! Sports(IMO), and the NCAA can waive its statute of limitations if there is compelling evidence of severe violations, as there would seem to be here. Assuming that these allegations are proven, Miami's defense is going to be that this was a rogue booster acting with the assistance of a few coaches who aren't employed by the school any more. This case, on its own merits, would most closely resemble the Michigan basketball scandal(though there are obvious differences), when Ed Martin's need to launder gambling profits wound up helping to wreck Michigan basketball for over a decade. However, if the NCAA waives the statute of limitations, and takes the view that the Shapiro case represents a continuation or resumption of the sort of lack of institutional control the NCAA hung on Miami in 1995, then the most severe penalties could come into play. I doubt that happens-- if I had to guess, taking the allegations at face value, Miami's looking at a USC-type penalty here.
People at my work were talking one day about giving OSU a TV ban. That's the punishment I don't ever see happening aggain. That's punishing the other teams as well. What I think is a good punishment is a money ban. Team A can play on TV, but they get none of the profits from it.
Hit em where it really hurts. The pocketbook.
I think a regional TV ban would work. No broadcasting of games within the greater Columbus/Ohio area would be a real killer.
The option to really hurt the pocketbooks is to make them play an entire schedule on the road. Flip all home games to road games for 2 years, and that's approaching $100 million while also putting them at a competitive disadvantage.
No way the NCAA hands out TV bans, millions will be lost. TV contracts is where all the revenue comes in, too much at stake to hand out bans now adays. The NCAA needs a system that punishes the people who commit the violations, not the new coaches/athletes.
I was a HUGE fan of Sean Taylor, he was one of my favorite defenders in all of football. I spent the better part of 2004, praying that there would be some way he could have slipped to the Lions in the draft. It hurts a bit to see someone you respected so much be involved in something as blatantly wrong as this. It harms his legacy in my eyes, that may be a bit harsh, but it's the truth.
I agree. I wish his name was left out of the allegations, at least out of respect for the dead.
I truly disdain Ohio State, but to compare what happened at OSU to what has been reported in Miami is insane.
Miami's situation is bad and if the death penalty is ever coming out again it'll be now. I don't think we'll see if though. More like losing dozens of schollies over several years, a long bowl ban, and a really, really long probation...not to mention that the last decade will be wiped out of the history books (not that that really matters).
The NCAA has it wrong. The death penalty should be their starting point for major violations, from which teams can earn lesser penalties based on cooperation, honesty, etc. Teams would be much more willing to talk openly with the NCAA if the incentive was avoiding the death penalty. Think a plea deal rather than a trial. It usually works for Jack McCoy.
If so, the NCAA would have to redefine "major", because violations like ours (which were officially major under the current definition) couldn't possibly warrant the death penalty.
We were open, honest, through and transparent. We'd have nothing to worry about.
.....part of me says that Miami does not exactly get sent to the gallows, although they might be able to see them from where they end up. In any event, they couldn't find someone at Miami who knew that rather famous line spoken by Sidney Carton in "A Tale Of Two Cities", so any trip to the gallows wouldn't be terribly dramatic for them.
As a graduate of both the University of Michigan and University of Miami, I am upset and offended by the callousness and ignorance of some comments on this board.
You read a single article relaying the story of a convicted fraudster (or a snippet of snippet summarizing the article - I doubt many of you actually read the yahoo sports article) and you immediately call for the death penalty? My God. I hope none of you calling for the death penalty ever sit on a jury in an actual court of law!
Please know that there are more Canes fans on our current Michigan football team and more Wolverines/Canes across the country than you may realize. For those of you older than 9 (given the immaturity of some comments I'm not sure there are many), remember that the two UMs are united by a common hatred for that school down (Chris Gamble Pass Interference). We should be pulling for the U, not calling for its head.
And for those of you who still can't find it in your hearts, F you. It's a Canes thing. You wouldn't understand.
Miami Law 2005
I think you meant to post on Miamigoblog.com. You aren't going to find a lot of sympathy for cheaters here.
Nevin Shapiro had paid your mother to have an abortion.
I read the Yahoo article. I also read the other posts in this thread. You decide to attack us for our immaturity in a thread where nobody thinks Miami is getting the death penalty and no one is necessarily in favor of it. Let me take a wild guess. You're so blinded by rage you can't see straight.
Why on earth you think fans of any other school should be rallying behind the Canes in the wake of this story is totally beyond me. Good luck finding them anywhere. Try the OSU boards. They're more sympathetic when it comes to sustained widespread cheating. Plus they should love you guys right now.
It was just one article with an account by a convicted fraudster. Doesn't sound too bad until until you read about the documentation and corroboration he has. If I were you I'd worry a lot more about your beloved U getting the death penalty than what we think. This is not going to end well for Miami.
"And for those of you who still can't find it in your hearts, F you. It's a Canes thing. You wouldn't understand." - agomezmia
Having a booster convicted of running a Ponzi scheme and handing out nine crap-tons of illegal benefits to players for YEARS is a Canes thing? You're right - I don't understand that sort of behavior at all.
Between USC, OSU and the U, it seems like there's all kinds of things going on that Michigan fans just "wouldn't understand". But that's okay. Especially when it seems like "understanding" roughly translates to "yeah we cheated. He'll yeah we did. But I don't want to talk about it"
You hit the nail on the head bro, I always treat jury duty like I'm on a college football message board. Jackass.
But you can't really be a fan of each of their football teams, other in the most shallow way, because they're on opposite ends of the spectrum. Maybe you have to be "old enough" to remember how corrupt that program was, and has been. It pretty much doesn't stand for anything Michigan stands for. Which you obviously don't understand.
Have fun frying.
I believe what we have here is an example of the old 'throw a bunch of shit at the jury and hope they buy at least one argument' defense gambit. We have...
1. The witness is unreliable.
2. There's been a rush to judgement.
3. My client is more like you than you might believe. Also, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
4. You simply don't understand my client's experience.
hey, don't knock it... wasn't the Casey Anthony lawyer a Miami alum?
I can't speak for anybody else, but I read the entire article. It's very damning, in no small part because of all of the corroborating evidence. There are credit card bills, financial statements, and numerous corroborating witnesses. There are also photographs.
I think the Yahoo Sports site on the U scandal is up to a small book. There's the main article, an article on each and every player/coach they can corroborate, plus additional follow-on articles, like "Why Miami is Trouble" that the Michigan/Miami grad may want to read:
Most damning, however, is the Miami administration allowing Nevin Shapiro into its world and then never kicking him out.
Just this year Ohio State was able to avoid a lack of institutional control charge by arguing only then-head coach Jim Tressel knew of violations within the program....
Even by the loose standards the NCAA allows, it doesn’t seem plausible Miami could make that claim with Nevin Shapiro. This wasn’t the case of just one action or one relationship with a coach, Shapiro says he dealt with seven different football and basketball coaches, regularly took them out to dinner and strip clubs and even loaned one $5,000.
...Shapiro had been honored by the school on the field during games and taken in action from the Canes sideline. He had access to practices. He twice led the team onto the field and once flew to a road game on the team charter.
When Miami was looking for a replacement for head coach Larry Coker after the 2006 season, Shapiro met with Shalala and offered not to just coach the team for free, but to personally pay $1 million a year for the nation’s best offensive and defensive coordinators.
This Fall: Miami vs. osu---- Loser gets the death penalty!
While these violations are egregious if true, the NCAA won't call for the death penalty, even if worse crimes end up surfacing.
It's unfortunate, because I see these types of scandals increasing in frequency in the current climate of out-of-control boosters and win-at-all-costs coaches. At the end of the day, these transgressors have no reason to believe that the NCAA will actually come back with any punishment that approaches the severity of the crime. Until a program gets hammered again in the manner of an SMU, you'll see these scenarios continue to play out every season.