and andre rison
DeAnthony Arnett's Charles Rogers reference
Edit: for every one of theirs we could name four of UMs. As far as true NFL HOF carriers I can think of one without looking it up its Bubba Smith (DL).
i think courtney hawkins returned kicks in the pros for a while
mushin muhammed (sp)
I don't think Michigan can credibly point to those players since they all succeeded in a pro-style system. MSU has a different coach too, but the system is similar. I think the jury is still out on whether Michigan can develop NFL receivers in its current system. We really won't know for a couple of years until Rrods first class graduates.
No offense but BS. Yes, UM has changed systems but just b/c MSU is running a similar system doesn't mean those coaches have a track record of developing players into the pros. If you base it solely on the system, then every school that runs the same type of offense has exactly the same chance of developing a player into the NFL. In other words, coaches DO matter in development and while you might question RR, those questions also apply to Dantonio equally. IMO.
Amen to that,
Dantonio wasn't the one who put Plaxico, Rogers, or Rison into the NFL. Heck you could argue that he wasn't even responsible for Devin Thomas (he went pro after Dantonio's first year iirc).
agree - UM has had a paradigm shift. watching wolverine historian videos yesterday and seeing some of the great OLs or QBs out there, UM can no longer claim to be where great OLs come from or great QBs or WRs.
they may someday, but not yet.
Darius Reynaud are a couple off the top of my head that went to next level ...
I think we should probably not get too emotionally involved in his recruitment...despite him being a fan of Michigan, I seriously doubt that he will be coming here.
Our WR depth is truly stacked. Very stacked - which will turn him away, no matter how good he thinks he is.
Also, his concerns on RichRod's offense are valid - it might not be tailored to fit his skills, which is ok with me.
Let the kid go where he thinks is best for him. If that's MSU, then it's a good thing that we have a strong secondary class coming in.
I think he'll be better off going to a marquee school like USC or Texas, but that's obviously my biased opinion.
A strong season for us next year will help our cause with Arnett, but even though he's supposed to be a great player, he's low priority for what we need right now. We'll probably pick up a three star WR or two in the next class just for continuity purposes. I doubt a 5 star's gonna come in an compete for playing time in a spread option type offense.
I agree. I am not saying that he should go to Michigan based on his skills. I am more surprised that State is a leader when he could go to a school like USC, or Florida, or another huge school, rather than State. He would be great to have, but I don't think we'll get him. However, Thomas is not the same type of receiver as Arnett. Thomas is more of a slot, (at least that's how the skins are using him).
maybe DeAnthony aspires to become a top 5 pick in the NFL Draft and then proceed to run his life into the ground by permanently setting his clocks to 4:20...
let's look at the facts here. i believe msu led the big ten conference in passing last year. they run a pro style attack with a very good qb that will be a junior next year (senior when arnett arrives). michigan is home to a coach that, for the few years before he came to ann arbor, ran an offense at wvu that was over 70% run. over the past two years, while clearly lacking talent and/or experience at the qb position, he has struggled mightily to run an sort of offense.
i know rich rod has guided offenses that had great passing games (see his time at tulane and clemson), but that was many years ago. i'm as big of a michigan fan as anyone, but this is real simple. if we start to show some flashes of having a good passing game, a kid like arnett will absolutely pay a lot more attention. until then, i understand the kid looking around.
How does this get negged? I know most of us our Michigan homers, but come on. You can't say the things he said are wrong.
He's going to take a while to decide. MSU threw the ball a lot last year (as tdumich mentioned), Michigan didn't throw it as much.
A little bit more vertical of a passing game and a little bit more experienced offense would help.
Kirk Gibson had a nice pro career
after a Detroit Lion? Wow. Talk about setting the bar low...
might want to look into strengthening those collar bones if he wants to go the Chuck Rogers route.
Receivers at State have a much better chance of having 1000+ yard seasons. I think State will put more WRs into the draft as long as we run this type of offense( not necessarily a bad thing). We have had a lot of great WRs, but I don't see us having players like Edwards, Avant, Manningham, Breaston, Toomer, etc. WR like them will want to be in a pro style offense. And like other posters have said, we have more depth. If I were a great WR who thought that I could go pro, I would not go to Michigan. But I wouldn't go to MSU either.
Rogers was an idiot, but he was a great college WR. He was the best in the country his last year. You can't say that you wouldn't want to be like him, as far as talent goes. Neg me all you want, but that's just how I see it.
I disagree. I went up to EL to watch the Spartoons play Rice during Rogers's final year. He dogged it every play when the play wasn't going to him—half-assed blocking, lackadaisical route running—and any DB who was paying attention could see shortly after the snap if he was likely to be getting the ball. When he was the target he was certainly playing at a high level, but I came away very unimpressed with him as a total player.
So it was no surprise at all when the Lions drafted him.
immediate PT, which MSU can give him most likely. Doesn't look like Fred Smith will be panning out anytime soon.
i hope you can provide thoughtful insight into the world of one of the MGoAxis powers.
your continued valuable contribution will raise my opinion of sparty ever so slightly.
He's better than the idiot who was happy when he thought Tate broke his wrist. That guy is was so stupid.
Will vow to be respectful at all times (except when its UM vs MSU week....J/K)
good to be on board.
If Irish and MGoSparty ever got into a fight... who would you want to win?
I would want them both to spontaneously com-bust.
we will have an MGoBlog sponsored debate on the eve of the MSU - ND game, the winner as decided upon by up-votes, gets the loser's MGoPoints.
irish would obviously win because he could just use his superior mgopoints to buy better weapons and armor and potions.
now, back to playing final fantasy.
can we go plasmids and gene tonics? I am kind of in a Bioshock frame of mind
Bama, and ND will be able to offer the same thing with both Julio Jones and Michael Floyd likely to go pro after next season. USC taking 3 high rated outside WRs this past cycle was music to my ears.
State could be very dangerous if they ever get a legit QB to run their system... Hoyer and Cousins type QBs will never get them above 8-4. But for next year, with their 2 sophomore RBs, their young convict WRs (Dell and Cunningham), a system that continually utilizes a pass catching TE, State could be much better than people think (I've seen a couple pre-pre-pre season rankings where they are in the mind-40s.)
And with success (and, no, 6-7 Bowl seasons are not success) State may be able to sway many 4-star "pro-style" recruits their way... including that legit 4-star QB they never seem to get (Boisture doesn't look like he counts). I hate to say it, but IMO, they are on the cusp of 10 win seasons.
But that's what we said after their Capital One BOwl season two years ago... here's hoping history continues to repeat itself
I think Cousins will be good this year. They should go 8-4 minimum. They have a pretty easy schedule-no OSU again. I'm pretty sure Maxwell was a legit 4 star, and he's a RS frosh. MSU will continue to get pretty good recruits (maybe Arnett, Thomas), but I find it hard to believe that they will ever win the Big 10. Every once in a while they might be good enough to crack the top 3 in the B10 and the top 20 nationwide.
Dantonio stops being so stubborn. There were plenty of occasions where we had an opponent 1st and goal inside the 5, and walked away with only 3 points. He wants to establish the team's identity as a smashmouth power running team when they just aren't. Sure he was able to do that with Ringer around but couldn't do it as well with Cape n Bake.
He's great at recruiting and evaluating talent (Ex: White a walk-on, Jones a 3-star, etc).
Dantonio just isn't a great coach. I don't think he'll ever take them to a BCS bowl. He's just 40-34 overall (18-17 at Cincy and 22-17 at MSU). MSU always chokes. The media had them as the third best in the Big Ten, but they went under .500. And he's 0-3 in bowl games with MSU.
I agree. I think Dantonio's whole problem is he seriously wants to be Tressel Jr.
It's the anxiety of influence.
I'm not buying MSU ever being a 10 win team, not anytime soon at least. First of all, I'm not sure Dantonio has what it takes to put together a full season, he has always had a few games blown that they should have won. And their recruiting has been better than average for them, but still very middle of the road for the Big Ten, even if they can continue the pace of the last couple years (which they probably won't unless they win more) they still won't have the talent level that teams like PSU, OSU and M have. Since I don't buy into their ability to take care of business with the rest of the conference, I think 10 wins is not going to happen.
there are plenty equally rated or superior WR on the board.
But I don't really want Arnett and I don't care if he does go to State. I spent some time recruiting for a small division III college and spent a lot of time watching film and looking at prospects. Now, by no means am I a professional but in my own personal opinion I don't like what I see when watching Arnett's tapes. I don't personally see him ever being a big time player in the college ranks, just average. He's very undersized and needs to put on a lot of weight, I wasn't empressed with his YAC, he seems to go down when he's touched. I was really turned off when I saw how often he ran out of bounds instead of battling for the extra yards. He does have good hands and speed but his route running was average and needs a lot of work. Again, I'm not a professional and I'm sure Division I recruiters know more and see more than I do but that's just my personal opinion.
With that being said, he will never be Charles Rogers and I'm personally happy that he won't be taking up a spot next year on our limited scholarship. Again, many of you have different opinions and I respect that, this is just my own opinion. Feel free to come back in 3-5 years and neg bang me to death if I'm wrong.
All we need to do is win. If we have a strong offense next year and win 8 or 9 (including MSU), we'll be in it for Arnett.
I'm not a huge Arnett fan, either. I don't think he'll be a star at the next level, but he could be solid.
Regardless, one could argue that Michigan State has produced just as many good NFL wide receivers as Michigan, if not more.
Michigan: Avant, Edwards, Toomer, Terrell, Manningham, etc.
MSU: Mason, Rison, Muhammad, Burress, Thomas, etc.
Michigan is a superior football program in almost every category, but wide receiver isn't the best example.
Let's take a look at who you cited:
Muhammad graduated in 1996;
Rison is even older
Burress is in Jail,
Devin Thomas has 400 yards receiving in 2 years
As mentioned, Charles Rodgers has been an absolute bust.
Agreed... but that's when looking at the last 15 years or so.
Recently: UM has put 4 legit WRs in the league: Manningham, Breaston, Avant, and Edwards while MSU only has Thomas and Burress (with Mason and Muhammad coming out in the late 90's and on the verge of retirement)
Those guys were from a different system with a different coach. JC
if msu gets rison, UM gets derrick alexander
Who would we say was UM's worst pro recievers in the last 15yrs?
D. Terrel (Bears ruined him)
M. Walker (T.B.)
i suppose it would somehow be a reflection of expectations and draft status. there are plenty of guys who made rosters who never played a game like Marcus Knight and Mercury Hayes who have bad pro stats.
if it is more disappointing, you would have a hard time beating Terrel, esp since he left early, IIRC.
Desmond Howard was drafted 4th overall and really was not a very good WR. good returner, though.
I didn't realize there was a particular span of time we were talking about. Are you just arbitrarily choosing a time frame? If you're going to eliminate Muhammad, then you probably have to eliminate Toomer, too.
It's really not an arbitrary time frame, but saying a recruit should go to a school because they are good at producing talent, and almost all of them graduated over 10 years ago, isn't too compelling. Rison has been out of the NFL for 10 years, so why didn't you give us Desmond? He was an Super Bowl MVP!
Of the MSU guys you listed, Rison is obviously out of the league, and Mason and Muhammad will be soon, and Rogers never panned out to be worth a thing. Who knows what will happen with Burress, and he was good, but when the best prospect is a guy whose career was cut short due to jail time, that's not a good thing. Also, Devin Thomas has had one good game as a pro, take that away and he has less than 350 yards and one touchdown in 2 seasons.
In 3 years when the older guys are gone and Thomas has been cut, they'll have no one.
Oh, and Burress might be in jail, but he won a Super Bowl. That's something that none of our wide receivers on this list can claim.
Only because you left off SB MVP Desmond Howard.
yet, he was on the list.
What is, Amani Toomer?
EDIT: aaamich beat me to it. But additionally, if we're going to go off of that qualifier, Adrian Arrington just won a super bowl ring, even if he has all 0s next to his name.
about a certain undersized quick reciever named Desmond Howard. Turns out he wond the heisman.
Or a current UM receiver that is essentially the same size as Arnett, plays in a "Non-Pro-System" and busted out big time in RR's system. Roy Roundtree.
There is a place for 5'11" WRs in our system. Not so much for the Pro-system. Not everyone can be Ted Ginn or Breaston (who were as dangerous as return men in college as WRs).
All this debate about UM receivers is kind of beside the point. I think that the old UM would be Arnett's leader right now. He wants a pro style offense. He's concerned about RR's offense, not UM's offense over the past 20 years.
If we win, and Tate/Gardner do well. Michigan will be in it for Arnett.
The point is that Michigan's receiving corps over the years has not been significantly better than MSU's. You can't point to either one and definitively say whose receivers have been better.
I don't even know why we would need to do this when we CAN point to the offensive line, quarterbacks, cornerbacks, linebackers, defensive ends, etc. and say definitively that Michigan is better at producing those positions.
Michigan is better. Anyone who argues that is an imbecile.
But give me Plaxico Burress (prior to jail), Muhsin Muhammad, and Derrick Mason, and I could give a who's-who of Michigan's receivers a run for their money.
Stick a fork in him, he's done
who would win in a fight between me and Irish? If the fight takes place in Spartan Stadium in a downpour with Irish down by 17 with 10 minutes to go, then Irish might take the take. If ski masks are allowed to be worn, then I will probably give Irish a Tombstone powerbomb through the Spanish announcer's table.