Geaux_Blue

March 23rd, 2010 at 3:46 PM ^

i'm not arguing that going from the FOOTBALL BANQUET to a frat CHARITY event ON CAMPUS isn't stupid (i even e-yelled!). what i'm getting as is how ridiculous it is that posters are ridiculing Dantonio for putting kids who were given probation by the state back on the roster. where were these people when Grady was brought back to the team?

if this was winston or jenrette there'd be a point. with 4 kids who were given probation for being there like idiots? not so much.

Geaux_Blue

March 23rd, 2010 at 3:44 PM ^

i would consider being behind the wheel, driving to a point and then more or less passing out WAY worse than going to an event 'en masse' knowing the entire fraternity was there to watch your friend fight 1-2 guys they're looking for. both are HUGELY idiotic but the notion that this 'second chance' is somehow egregious compared to the chance given by RR is absurd.

this is definitely a glass houses issue.

Geaux_Blue

March 23rd, 2010 at 4:05 PM ^

but it can very reasonably be argued it is NOT an accident to know you shouldn't be behind the wheel. further, your argument "struggles" because the courts found none of these players were guilty of striking someone. everyone on here would have a point if these were the aggressors but it's been already found they followed along dumbly but received probation bc there involvement was so very minor.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

March 23rd, 2010 at 4:19 PM ^

Typically, purposely aiding and abetting a crime is treated the same as actual commission of that crime. I consider them all equally thugoriffic. Here's a question:

"Hey brah, we're going down to IPT tonight to kick all their asses. Want to come help?"

The correct answer is:

A) "No, and you should really just drop it."
B) "No, but have fun."
C) "Awesome! Sounds like fun. Can't wait."

If MSU and the Freep are going to throw the "courts may have acquitted Dorsey but he's still a thug" stone at us, then I'm gonna throw it right back through their own glass house. At the very least Dorsey wasn't under the direct guidance of Rodriguez when he went out and did that stuff, whereas it's pretty obvious these players know they can get away with being THUGZ 4 LYFE under Dantonio because he allows that stuff to go on.

As for the DUI thing: yes, obviously it should be known that you shouldn't be behind the wheel, but that is still, at worst, purposely negligent. What these Sparties did was set out with the stated intent to hurt people. That's not negligence.

myrtlebeachmai…

March 23rd, 2010 at 3:44 PM ^

I get it, and I weighed it out knowing I was really mad. But here's the thing, WHY was I so mad? It wasn't just 'cause it was Sparty...

I agree with W.LA: Look at the intent. This is mob mentality. This is NOT the first time for them (not just Sparty, but this SAME GROUP of young men).

A spontaneous bar fight is one thing. Could someone end up dead? Sure. At least it's a momentary lapse of judgement, and based on raw emotion.

Holding onto anger, to the point of not being able to let go of it after walking away (long and far enough to round up a posse), and then planning a crime is a whole different story. It suggests a total lack of self-discipline, respect for law or humanity, and the total loss of fear for consequence.

Nothing (visible anyway) done by MSU would suggest that the school or football program has taken a strong stand to let these guys know that this is not acceptable.

Geaux_Blue

March 23rd, 2010 at 3:50 PM ^

i'm not an MSU apologist. however, the more i look at the situation and see how it has become readily apparent who came making sure it wasn't 18 frat guys versus winston, the more i agree with the charges they faced and subsequent punishment. i'm not arguing winston is a moron. or jenrette. or the 4 other guys who faced more damning penalties. hell, to a degree i think it's worse that some of the guys lied to Dantonio, played in the bowl and THEN were identified.

i think it's absurd that the courts said "these guys will get probation, nothing more" and the board is all up in arms that they're on the roster for Spring Practice. i'm expecting the same posters will throw a brick through Schembechler Hall if another UM player gets a DUI or mild misdemeanor and is sat for 3-5 games mid-season.

if the law says they weren't more responsible than being a part of this bullshit circus at a frat potluck, why in the hell would the team do more than 4 months probation from practice, etc.

holy jesus. i've turned into Magnus.

myrtlebeachmai…

March 23rd, 2010 at 4:10 PM ^

... and you make some REALLY good points.

Look, I'm a guy who's done the "wing/beer" stop off many a time after work. Would I have blown a .08 ever? Doubt it, but who knows, close, probably a few times. Why not cross the line entirely? I've got some understanding of what's involved as far as consequence, and the human element weighs on me more than the legal - killing/injuring someone would haunt me longer than some license loss. Also, I've got some friends who look out for each other to make sure none of us gets to that "trouble" point.

I get the "they were just there to make sure Winston didn't get piled on by a bunch of engineers". However, why couldn't any one, if not the group of them, say "Dude, you F**ked Up doing this before, let it go"? How about, "Man, get over it, let's go party and find some fine tail, being that we're MSU football and all"?

I get that some of these guys were "bystanders", but it doesn't make it OK to sit by and watch a crime, especially one that you know is going to unfold, AND the exact same one you already did previously and was met with consequence (at least for Winston in terms of jail time). Did it not occur to any of them that it might not be a good idea? Did they not fear?

THAT is the problem. Either this team thinks they run around with impunity, or they don't care. That's dangerous ground to walk on, especially if these young men don't learn differently (differently from the idea of using both violence AND their physical size/strength advantage over weaker individuals) before they leave and end up like Plax, Charles, etc except this time it'll be violent crime.

It is readily apparent that the punishments being handed down by the legal system are NOT influencing them. How about hitting them closer to home?

Geaux_Blue

March 23rd, 2010 at 4:20 PM ^

and i made the same arguments

however, grady was beyond a "wing/beer" stop. he was passed out behind the wheel.
nobody is questioning the failure in maturity. however, a failure in maturity where their actions did not result in a harm when they could have is material and relevant. it's why they got probation for their conspiratorial roles and not more severe punishment.

the punishments handed out did not influence jenrette and winston. this is their first strike. carr handed them out, rodriguez did as well. the removal of players is important. a removal of all players, especially those who received PROBATION for their roles, is not required.

myrtlebeachmai…

March 23rd, 2010 at 4:42 PM ^

that I haven't called for their careers. I said they should have to "earn" it back, as in it should be taken away at least temporarily (in my mind that means handling at least SOME of your societal/legal debt first, and maybe counseling). The article talked of their "reinstatement" - being back with the team - as in no longer suspended; not just that they were listed on spring rosters.

I am not for giving UM players any preferences when they cross the line (no galss house here). I've been largely OK with RR's handling of things so far. I would like to have hoped that a teammate would have seen Grady's condition and stopped him. In there's a "silver lining", at least there weren't 4 other guys in the car watching him drive like that and being OK with it. Also, I'm glad RR handled BooBoo the way he did - did not give the second chance "up front" and watch for further transgressions, but instead set high requirements, and left the door open until it showed he couldn't/didn't want to change.

That's what I'd like to see out of ANY coach. I believe they have that RESPONSIBILITY. Perhaps Dantonio should make them all wear Winston's jersey number through spring/summer/fall to remind them how they let themselves/their school/the team/their teammate down by doing nothing.

jmblue

March 23rd, 2010 at 3:54 PM ^

"I think it draws our team together."

So . . . having guys get arrested, spend time in the slammer, and get reinstated afterward brings the team together?

I can't believe he said that.

UMMAN83

March 23rd, 2010 at 7:07 PM ^

Spartans coming together as a team, infighting expected at UM when Dorsey joins the team. I'll never know but I can only assume.