Well it's likely who we'll see in the BTCG so it does affect us.
Danny O'Brien to Wisconsin? (EDIT: Confirmed by Bruce Feldman)
He's not eligible to play this year is he? Unless he is a grad school transfer he will have to sit a year.
He's graduating this spring and will be immediately eligible to play as a grad student
Everyone seems to accept this as fact. But, he still has to actually go through the process, right? Couldn't Maryland prevent it, in a similar manner as to the basketball player that tried to transfer from St. Joe's to UAB this year? Also, doesn't the NCAA at least give a cursory review to make sure this was for "academic purposes"? Since he has two years of eligibility remaining, are we sure that he's going to be allowed to suit up right away?
Maryland's already given him his release, so there's no more say there. Remember there was that biggish hubbub when Edsall tried to be a dick and put Vanderbilt on the list of no-gos just to spite James Franklin.
Right, but I thought that was simply for his innitial release, just like any other potential transfer. I'm obviously unsure of the mechanism, but I thought after a player was released, he still has to go through an additional process with the NCAA for imediate eligibility, at which point, the releasing school could object.
Eh, maybe I'm way off-base on this. I guess I'm just a little annoyed at the possibility of having two years to play at his chosen school. Seems way to much like pro-style free agency.
You may be right about the technicalities, I'm not exactly sure, but in truth whatever's left is the mere formalities. Maryland's already got enough bad press over this thing, can you envision them objecting at this stage of the game?
At any rate, the guy graduated in three years, which seems like the kind of thing the NCAA ought to encourage, so I have no problem if a pseudo-free agency is the reward for that kind of hard work.
I believe the only thing that matters is that the school he's going to offers a grad program that the school he's graduating from doesn't offer. And obviously he has to enroll in that program.
Maryland has already granted the release.
From the article.
"O’Brien is on pace to graduate this spring and under NCAA rules will be eligible to play immediately.
He has two seasons of eligibility remaining. """""""""""""""""""
So Bielma would get lucky and find another Russell Wilson clone? The NCAA needs to change the grad student immediate eligibility rule.
"The NCAA needs to change the grad student immediate eligibility rule."
Why? This seems like a good thing for the student-athlete.
From my perspective, it would seem to raise the potential to have schools/coaches tamper with the set of eligible players to get them to program-hop.
There's a really small subset of players who are:
A) Good enough to make a big difference
B) Have a good reason to transfer.
Typically, Russel Wilson type players aren't going to leave their programs just to play elsewhere for a year. Personally, this is one of the few rules designed to actually promote academics in the entire NCAA rulebook. It's open for abuse, but there are much bigger fish for the NCAA to fry first.
Also they both (Wilson, O'Brien) graduated. You know, the main tangible goal of college. I think the transfer rule is an acceptable reward of sorts.
It is allowing players and coaches to game the system. It is starting to look like NFL free agency. If it's so great for the "student athlete," then make them sit out a year and get free school. That's even better for the "student athlete."
claims 380,000 athletes currently competing at all three levels. If having this rule in place for 379,900 of these students to be able to attend the grad school they choose (if they redshirted), I'm completely fine with 100 going to the Wisconsin's of the world (and possibly Michigan basketball next year) to play football or MBB for one extra year.
Russell Wilson and Danny O'Brien earned their college degrees in three years, all the while being high-profile athletes in what is the most time-intensive collegiate sport.
How in the hell is this not a good thing?
I think the rule is a good one. Why tell a runner or a tennis player they can't get a scholarship to play in grad school (which is exactly how this is used most of the time) because Beilema and a few other coaches in football and MBB take advantage of the rule*? If anything, it just shows how perverse the incentives can get in football and MBB compared to the rest of the NCAA, and why some of the rules should be changed for those two sports.
*not that there's anything inherently wrong with taking advantage of the rule; I think we're all hoping Beilein finds a grad-year to help us in 2012-13.
and interested in Michigan, would we be opposed to taking him? Lots of schools routinely plug their holes with Jucos. I don't see what Wisconsin is doing as anything different except they are only taking one player a year.
I agree, although I don't think it's the ideal way to run a team, hence my pessimism. The other advantage you get is knowing these are good students. Playing football and graduating in four years is pretty hard to do, so it's not like these guys are about to flunk out or anything.
It seems like Wisconsin is making a thing of getting QBs from the NCAA equivalent of the waiver wire. I would hate to see the Badgers actually go to the trouble of recruiting and developing talent at the position during a year when there was a thin stock of disaffected QB talent.
That being said, this actually is not a bad get for the Badgers.
Edsall was a really respected coach at UCONN. What happened? All I can gather is that most of the kids he inherited have an almost unsatiable hatred for him. And we thought RR's first year was rough.
Edsall was a really respected coach at UCONN. What happened?
- He went 2-10.
- He's following an anything-goes kind of coach and did so by instituting a bunch of rules that 19-year-olds really hate, like no hats indoors, no earrings, etc.
- He went 2-10.
- He managed to alienate half the high school coaches in the DC area.
- He went 2-10.
- He was brought in to turn a year-to-year inconsistent team into a consistent performer and get them over the hump from Champs Sports Bowl every other year and nothing in between, to Champs Sports Bowl every other year and Orange Bowl in between. But he came in talking like he had to rebuild from the ground up.
- And then turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Have I mentioned he went 2-10?
Last year I ran into a couple fb players in the gym at Maryland and asked them what they thought of Edsall. Immediately, to a random guy in the gym, they both said, "He's an a*****."
I'm seriously baffled by that. It seemed everybody thought so highly of him at Uconn. Mandel did a huge fluff piece on him building the program the 'right' way at Uconn, and he had the results to back it up for the most part. I wonder if they rip off an unexpected ACC championship will that additude make a 180.
This would signal that Wisky, which has always been a model of rectitute, is becoming kind of a sleazy and mercenary program. Do you really want to be known for annually signing soldiers of fortune? How about actually, say, recruiting.
O'Brien is on pace to graduate in three years. That makes him a pretty impressive student-athlete in my book, and the type of player any program should be proud to have.
I don't mean to knock O'Brien. I'm sure he's a fine kid. But this whole transfer/play immediately thing is, by virtually any estimation, a ridiculous loophole. Once in a special situation? Sure. Twice in a row? This trend bespeaks a program looking for quick-fix shortcuts in lieu of player development. Wisky has always shined at the latter, routinely turning 3-stars into All-Americans. Now it just sharks for one-off mercenaries who will spend a grand total of five months in Madison. On, Wisconsin!
Look at the alternative. Most players in a position to use this grad student exception are going to have one year of eligibility left. If they are a superstar, then they are probably going straight to the NFL. If they aren't they might have a hard time finding any good program that will give them a scholarship for two years just so they can play the second. Plus it would be much harder for them to make a decision based on playing time. Making them stay might put them behind in their education. Rewarding them for graduating early or on time is infinitely better than punishing them for it, even if it may work to the benefit of certain schools.
I hope there is another clause that allows players the same opportunity if they aren't accepted into the grad program at their current school.
Another way to look at it is the NCAA is simply giving college graduates the same opportunities as HS graduates. That's assuming they can get a release. Doesn't that seem fair?
I think Mack's point was geared more towards PROGRAMS using this rule to THEIR BENEFIT, with the benefits of the athlete just an afterthought. Although it isn't wrong, it certainly seems to be a rule that can at least be QUESTIONED. How would you feel if you were a QB recruited by Wisco three years ago and now a guy who has had no vested stake in the program, hasn't worked hard with the team for the past three years, has no affiliation to the school, and might simply be transferring because of the FOOTBALL circumstances at his last school steps in at the 11th hour an takes your job? Hell, the original QB might have not redshirted to position himself to take the job for just one year. "Sorry bud, but we found a new guy from New Mexico State who just graduated and we're bringing him in. Thanks for all the hard work these past 3-4 years, but this random guy gives us the best chance to win, so have fun riding the bench. Maybe we'll blow out Indiana and you can get a chance in the fourth quarter!"
Maryland is a fine school and remember that (I believe) the athlete has to find a graduate program at the new university his old one doesn't offer. I'm not an expert on grad schools, but I'd imagine there are limited choices for programs, he might end up entering into a South American Anthropology program based only on the fact that Maryland doesn't offer it, instead of pursuing a program that is more suited to their interest. If O'Brien was say... an Economics major, he can't pursue graduate work in say... accounting because Maryland offers it as well.
Although some programs may use the rule for their own benefit, I think you could say the same for just about any rule. While the programs may or may not be concerned about the educational benefits to the players, I don't think that really matters. The players can benefit academically from it if they choose to and that's the intention of the loophole.
Whatever position you play, your school is going to continue to recruit your position in CFB. I suppose the player in your example wouldn't be happy to see a highly ranked Juco or a 5* freshman come in either. He should expect stiff competition for a starting job.
Maybe it would be even better O'Brien didn't have to find a program that Maryland doesn't offer, but there are a lot of specialized programs to choose from. My understanding is that Wisconsin would just have to offer a particular program within the economics department that Maryland doesn't. He still has the option to stay at Maryland if the academic opportunities are better there. For some players the difference could be great. For example, UM is recruiting a player that wants to be a vet. He would have to go somewhere else to pursue that career after he graduates from UM.
You make some good points. I think it eventually boils down to the ultimate question (which everyone secretly knows the answer to but no university will admit). Which is more important, football or school? The answer for both the student-athlete in question and the school is (95% of the time) football. The reality is, when playing football at a D-1 school the players are "athlete-students" not "student-athletes". I'm not knocking the players, I'm just saying the reality of the situation isn't as high-minded and well-intentioned as the NCAA would lead us to believe. I guess I'm just bothered by the apparent potential for this sort of practice to become commonplace and a "free-agent" market to develop among guys unhappy with the football program at their chosen schools or guys who graduated and still have year(s) of eligibility. I mean, it is possible for a school from a low-level conference to simply recruit players who weren't given a fifth year at bigger schools (granted, that could be more free education for the players).
Regarding your last point, it seems like schools could very easily beat this rule by simply allowing transferring players to essentially create their own major. I know it is possible for undergrads and though it'd probably be harder for grad schools, I'd bet you could simply adjust a program ever so slightly to get the player in (i.e. create European History (1918-1945) to establish a different program than Maryland's plain old European History).
can't say i know the details of wisconsin's situation, but i highly doubt this is their long-term strategy. granted, it's two years in a row, but i think they now have some promising young guy(s) they're looking to develop. since they also just went through some turnover in the staff, an experienced qb is a good get for them.
I don't blame Wisc too much at this point. The reason they've had to so this is because literally every other option will be either a true freshman or recovering from surgery. I think the unexpected setbacks of Wilson's back-ups made them go after O'brien. Otherwise I don't think they would have pursues him nearly as hard.
You can lean on the youth-and-injuries thing once. But not twice in a row. If they've got no able bodies, it's because they recruited badly. Over these two seasons, they've had 5 scholarship QBs. I don't think all of them have been injured.
2. Ohio State (banned from post-season play)
4. Penn State
How can we be victors of the west if we're not in the "West" division?
I do see your point, though, in that we won't play at least two of those teams even if we do play in the B1G championship game.
I'm fairly certain the poster that you were responding to was referring to attracting QB recruits...
This was supposed to be a response to different poster. I have no idea why it posted here. Sorry...
Do you mean "Champions of the West!"?
What grad program does Wisconsin offer that these seniors are signing up for? Is O'Brien going for the same grad program Wilson did?
I don't really want to blame Wisconsin for shenanigans because the loophole is legit and it's allowing the players an opportunity to continue playing in a better situation. I'm just curious if the players are using the grad program loophole just for football purposes, or if they're serious about the subject matter of the degree. I suppose there's no way to know.
The UW website states that Russell Wilson is a "communications major."
If he has 2 years of eligibility left, the real question is, can he play 2 years for the Badgers as long as he is a grad student those 2 years? Or is this "loophole" maxed out at 1 yr? Not sure if there is a precedent bc he's finishing undergrad in 3 yrs which is not common.
I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. Seems like shenanigans to me. I swear to God I'm going to pistol-whip the next guy who says, "Shenanigans"
Not again. Bielma is such a massive tool. It would be nice to see him have to actually break in a new/freshman quarterback for once.
I wonder if Madison is too liberal for him?
I know what that stands for...
This practice has the potential to bite Wisconisin in the butt. High School senior QBs might shy away from committing to the Badgers because they keep bringing in these mercinaries. What happens when there's no Grad School transfer avaialble for a particular year and the QB cupboard is bare in Madison?
"What happens when there's no Grad School transfer avaialble for a particular year and the QB cupboard is bare......?"
If memory serves then Nick Sheridan and Steven Threat happen.
You could NEVER confuse Threet for threat.
Why not? In earlier posts i confused Chysler with Crisler and called the Packers back-up QB Wynn, not Flynn.
My ability to screw up the spelling of names knows no bounds. Luckily for me I'm at least phonetically in the right area code so other people can follow what i'm talking about.
I think you missed the joke.
It was a play on words. "Threet" was never a "threat" to other teams while he was our QB. Therefore, you would never confuse Threet for a threat. He say that cos it's the opposite. Is funny.
Edit: I still can't figure out the embed thing
So you're saying I not only misspelled his name i also missed the joke poking fun at my misspelling of his name?
An awesome daily double of fail. I'm on a ROLL.
Hey look at that, brilliant minds and all.
Come on Wisky! Live and die by the transfer for another year? They do have a good freshman 4* QB from Cali named Bart Houston coming in.
[EDIT] For a minute I thought you were talking about the old Michigan recruit that went to Tennesee.
Is he actually any good? If I was looking at the right stats, I wasn't all that impressed. He's no Wilson.
We'll see what he can do when playing for a coach he likes and with a team that doesn't quit out from underneath him halfway through the season and without a clown for an offensive coordinator and with an offensive line that's worth a shit.
without uniforms that make you look like a ruptured spleen.
This guy just doesn't seem to have the upside that Wilson did. Wisconsin might be bettter because of him, but not like last year. Atleast he'll have time to develop with the ridiculous out of conference schedule they play.
But he's got to be as good as Stocco right? That was also a really good UW team without amazing QB play.
Bielema better not be getting used to bringing in transfers. If I was a QB looking at Wisconsin, they'd seem a little suspect to me right now.
I know the situation for some of the guys that Bielema has recruited hasn't been ideal, especially on the injury front, but at some point you need to show a little faith in the guys that you recruited. Otherwise you're going to scare a lot of recruits away.
Two of the back ups, I believe, might not actually ever play football again due to their injuries. One has a nerve condition, and the other has already had like 3 knee sugeries. Plus their incoming freshman is also recovering from surgery. They're kind of at the point where they literally don't have any options other than a transfer.
Glad to see Feldman landed on his feet at CBS after being ousted from ESPN by Craig James, the alleged hooker slayer.
Wisconsin can do this very year as far as I'm concerned. Sure, Russell Wilson was good. But having QBs who are playing their first year in an offense, with new coaches and teammates with no chemistry will not always work that well. Russell Wilson was very athletic, and very well liked. It was a perfect situation last year, because the team returned a ton of talent, but didn't have a QB.
Replacing your starter with a guy who has practiced the offense for a couple years, taken snaps from the center for a couple years, thrown to his receivers for a couple years and has relationships with the players is a much better recipe. This guy isn't even going to make it for much of spring ball.
It's going to create some resentment within the team. Their friends, who've they've gone to war with in practices, are getting passed over for some dude they don't know who hasn't earned anything. Guess it works as long as you're winning the Big Ten. But it seems like a chemistry problem eventually.
To an extent, perhaps, but it's not like the guy coming in is guaranteed anything. Football is competitive, and if you're a QB, and the team brings in another one, you have to compete with him. It's no different than bringing in a high profile recruit, or a JUCO. Going in to fall camp, these guys know the best player will play, regardless of how long that guy has been on the team. And I'm sure the other players want as many guys who will help them win as possible.
Some further reading on the interweb led me to this old article -
It details how the SEC is against the graduate transfer rule for players with only one year of eligibility left. Which makes sense, because the SEC has never really been for the players anyways. I like the snark in this quote -
"We're not interested in athletes coming for the purpose of one year and then moving on," Slive said. Really? You aren't? Someone should have told that to Gerald Wallace, John Wall, Eric Bledsoe, DeMarcus Cousins, Daniel Orton, Brandon Knight and Tobias Harris, who all recently spent one year playing basketball at Alabama, Kentucky and Tennessee before moving on. The SEC didn't pass a rule Friday to keep those types of athletes from enrolling at SEC schools, because doing so would have put the league at a competitive disadvantage.
Good luck trying to get an actual top high school recruit to come to Madison...
Super HALOL. Who would want to play for a perennial Rose Bowl team anyway? And what receiver would want to go to a team that always made sure they had solid QB play? HALOLOL!
I assume he was referring to attracting QB recruits, which is a very fair point.
Not really. This is not a situation that is specific to QBs, it just so happened to be a QB both times. And I'm sure no recruit really expect Wisconsin to do this on a regular basis. It's not like Wisconsin has a history of bringing in top QB prospects anyway, and any QB they are recruiting won't hardly be here when O'Brien is anyway.
Well, it'll be two years in a row now. Not exactly a vote of confidence for the guys they have recruited and developed the last several years. Plus, it's not like Bielema has shown a great ability to recruit high caliber QBs to begin with. What it tells me is that they haven't done well developing their own recruits, and had to go this route to upgrade, which sends a weird message to future position recruits considering the program.
is clearly not good for (1) players on the team who lose their quarterback; (2) quarterbacks on the team who gain a new starting graduate quarterback. Maryland players are likely to suffer negative consequences just as NC State players suffered last year. In 2010, with Wilson as QB, NC State was 9-4. After Wilson departed for Wisconsin, NC State sunk to 8-5. Although Wilson's replacement (Glennon) had a great year (3,000 yards passing, 136 qb rating, 31 TD vs. 12 INT), he was not the threat that Wilson posed (3,000+ yards passing, 192 qb rating, 33 TD vs 4 INT) while functioning in a new offense. The last starting QB for Wisconsin was recruited in 2006. My guess is that they will not be able to recruit a single 4 or 5 star qb for some time.
Number one is a little silly. Players transfer all the time. Disallowing a transfer because the team won't be as good and the remaining players will suffer is just silly. Also - who cares about the other QBs? If a coach thinks there is a need at QB and goes out and gets one, then that's his job. This same thing happens in all other transfers, as well as in recruiting. If Beilein brings in a transfer PG this year, is that a bad thing too?
I also think everyone is overstating the effect on Wisco QB recruiting. In the 11 years that Rivals shows, Wisconsin has signed two 4 star QBs: Tyler Donovan in 2003 and Curt Phillips in 2008. Like every Big Ten team not named Michigan, OSU or PSU, Wisconsin has largely had 3-star QBs anyway. This thought that they won't be able to recruit blue chip signal callers implies that they were able to before.
guard for one year.
(edit) wrong Danny O..nvm
Good for him. To bad he will have to go against our o line the next couple years.