How high do you think he was when he made those posts?
...says Denzel Valentine of Big Ten Tourney favorite MSU, which is 5-7 in its last 12 games. Cumong, man.
How high do you think he was when he made those posts?
The progress through his slits for eyes.
To his credit, Amaker holds a slight advantage in winning percentage after his 4th yr at Michigan (.524 vs .500). Also, that tenure included having to overcome NCAA violation repercussions.
Then again, his strongest season only featured an NIT Championship. I'll take a 2nd round birth in the REAL tourney any day..
amaker was a great recruiter, but is always seemed like freshman came in looking great with great looking futures, but never progressed, esp looking at horton and dion harris
I will take Beileins 3 star guys who develop over Amakers 4 star guys who plateau any day.
Horton was the best player at UofM since Fisher, but he regressed on the court and made poor decisions off the court. Hardly the player we need spouting off about the program, but I guess that's what the Internet gives us...
Beileins team is young because Manny was ready for the pros, Cronin had a career ending injury, Benzing couldn't qualify, Grady chose football, and others like LLp and Wright couldn't hack it. This is the 3rd youngest team in the nation right now! I think they are playing great and will be a force next year.
I agree with Horton on this one. This team is far from being a tournament team let alone competing with the top teams in conference.
I agree with you that Beilein had a poor recruiting class when he just had Novak and Douglass, but do you not see the potential of our young talent in D-Mo and Tim Hardaway? Sure, Beilein won at other schools with a bunch of Pittsnogles and Somtrycz type players, but he's definitely stepped up the recruiting this class and the next class. I used to be a skeptic of his recruiting, but I see potential in the future.
As for Daniel Horton, I'm sad to hear him say that. There was always so much promise in those young talented Amaker clubs but they always seemed to underachieve. Ask Daniel Horton how the 2004-2005 season felt after they won the NIT in 2004. Those teams were so disappointing because they had the talent, but they had 2000000 turnovers a game.
Wright left the program to attend a masters program at UT he graduated from Michigan and definitely "hacked it."
This is a reply to MGoBlue52
Michigan should not be happy with a coach just because he made it to the tournament one year out of four. That is pathetic if you ask me.
Under normal circumstances I would agree, but It's OK imo since that's the first time we had been to the tourney in 10 years
The kids play hard. The scheme can frustrate other teams at times but overall this systems will never be consistent enough to win the Big 10 on a regular basis. Meaning I doubt other than a really good run by a bunch of seniors this team isn't ever going to stack up against the big 10. JB isn't going to attract that talent level ever and even though I like our coach and players, I wont be sad if it ends sooner rather than later. We used to be a basketball school and it shouldnt take 20 years to become one again. It especially hurts because we handed the keys to the Caddilac over to to Sparty the second Izzo walked in the door. Talk about timing.
Because we needed guards in this class. There were three developmental bigs in the last class, but it might take another year of weights until they're ready. It is necessary to land an elite big in the next class, though.
All in all, I think we need to let Beilein build a stable program. Now that we are devoting a necessary amount of resources to the BBall program, we will start to see rapid improvement.
Til she was unconscious and was definitely blowed when he wrote this but he's not far off. If they don't go to the tourney this year then he better get canned. Especially if RR goes after 3 years.
With this team? Come on, people were doubting they could win 10 games all year after Manny left. I am not sold on Belien because I agree that he needs to recruit at a higher level. However, the results this year show progress and John Belien deserves another 2 years to see if this will work.
Rich Rod is a a good coach but the complete failure on Defense and Special Teams doomed him.
Amaker's team already this year.
With the exception of Zach Novak, how many 6' 3 -6' 5" white boys from Indiana and illinois can you recuit before you forget that Big Ten teams are supposed to be big.
Also, I guess never missing a free throw gives you the right to yell at a coach
Tim Hardaway, Jr.?
do not see how one of the ten youngest teams in the country could possible improve over the course of the next couple seasons. It would certainly take someone in denial to find potential in a team that has led two of the top 5 teams in the country with fewer than five mins to go while having significantly less experienced players than said top 5 teams.
As a general rule, I don't like past players saying negative things about the current players and/ or coach. If this was on his personal facebook, it's a bit different but privacy isn't what it used to be and you should be aware.
I like Beilein and think he will have success, but I do think his criticism of michigan's recruiting is probably valid. I was around the athletic dept in the early 00s and there was definitely an attitude and complacency held by coaches that michigans name should recruit by itself. It's pretty much the Michigan man belief applied to recruits- Michigan should only consider kids that only want to go Michigan. It seems ok, but true blue chips will have other equally attractive options and need to be actively recruited. I didnt have much visibility into football or basketball, but in other sports i saw coaches take middle of the pack kids instead of going after a blue chip that they might have to work harder to land.
To win big games and compete in championships, you need to land top blue chips in every class and occasionally sell Michigan to them
... kansas blew a 15 point lead on purpose because they were bored. That makes so much sense.
Now that we are building the new player development facility, recruiting will improve in the near future. We could use another athletic big, but otherwise I don't think we can make a final evaluation of Beilein for at least two more years.
I really like Bacari Alexander and Lavall Jordan so far though. If Amaker had them as assistants, he might still be the coach.
One thing I'll agree with Horton about is Bill Martin. He didn't give a shit about the basketball program.
Yeah, sure, because Horton has been at the games and in the locker room and "all in" for the MBB team since he left Ann Arbor. He is right about one thing -- MBB was ignored internally for years -- but it earned that by handing us the embarrassing Ed Martin fiasco. Michigan more or less gave the MBB the death penalty for most of a decade after firing Steve Fisher.
When it hired John Beilein, Michigan took the first concrete step toward restoring the MBB program to full Michigan varsity status. Last year was a disappointment, but this year is looking like we are back on track. As we begin to win more consistently, we will land better recruiting classes. If asked to pick between Daniel Horton and John Beilein, no question my vote goes to Coach Beilein. I appreciate everything Daniel Horton has done for UM, but I'm all in for Coach Beilein (and disappointed Daniel Horton is not "all in" for his alma mater too).
We've got an impressive 4* PG in the fold, what looks to be a highly talented slasher type in Hardaway and a top 100 guy and a second guy right on the edge last I saw. Horford has potential once he has a year or two in the weight room and can physcially stand up to the bigs on the other teams in the conference. I like what's going on, the kids who were here last year are better than they were (especially Morris). Alexander seems to have done a fine job with Morgan who is holding his own especially on the defensive end.
I don't get the complaints. He pulled off a miracle and got us to the tournament two years ago. Last year was certainly a disappointment, but this team could be a second miracle in three years if they pull off one big home upset (OSU tomorrow or MSU?). They should definitely make the NIT and be set up for a big year next year. The need for instant success is driving me nuts around here.
Beilein has 1 NCAA tournament appearance at Michigan. Horton has none. Probably should have cut Horton after year three I suppose.
Daniel Horton likely would have played in an NCAA tournament in 2002-3. That win streak they put together was one of the most fun runs I've ever had as a Michigan fan. It was great.
Amaker's early years really can't be judged too negatively being that he was hamstrung by the self-imposed sanctions.
In Beilein's defense, he took over a program that hadn't made the NCAA tourney legitimately since 1989. The money scandals extended from Chris Webber to Louis Bullock to Maurice Taylor. While Amaker pulled in a couple bigger names, his 0 tourney appearances revealed that he couldn't utilize his team's potential. Being away from the national spotlight for so long, Beilein has attempted to do the behind-the-scenes things that will entice bigger name recruits to come here...without being paid: changing the arena's lighting for HDTV optimalization, building a state-of-the-art practice facility, and encouraging DB to increase the MBB budget. He did pick up two players in this year's Rivals 150 (including 4-star Carlton Brundidge) and would have landed Trey Zeigler if he wasn't trying to save his Dad's job at CMU.
That's not entirely true. Michigan basketball made the NCAA tournament in 1990 sans violations, the 1994 and 1995 teams were free of the players connected to Ed Martin, and Amaker would have had at least one team in the dance that couldn't go due to the postseason ban.
Good catch on those 3 years.. I guess I lost them when they got sandwiched in between the bad boys. Who was on the '94 squad that helped them to a 3 seed and 4th round birth?
Juwan and Jalen, ended up losing a tough game to Nolan Richardson and Arkansas in the Elite 8.
If you fire JB it will be impossible to find a replacement. JB is rediculously well respected and is more qualified a coach than anyone else that would potentially be available.
Beilein created basketball at WVU, which is in the Big East. The Big East is a basketball conference, and he is used to competing with teams like Syracuse, UConn, Georgetown, Villanova, etc...
John Beilein has forgotten more about basketball than Horton will ever know.
I think Horton has some points here, but at the same time... Amaker reached his ceiling. Nice guy, did a little bit with a lot of talent, but the problem was that talent never went anywhere.
Horton regressed. Lester Abram got hurt every time someone breathed on him. Courtney Sims is perhaps the only tennis-player-turned-big-man ever, not to mention he's probably the only big man ever to actually get smaller as his career progressed. Chris Hunter's traitorous knee. Petway never quite grasping that there were two ends of the court. The list goes on and on and on.
So much talent, but they were never developed into much of anything. And you could show up to Crisler early and see why the team struggled so much with fundamentals, because layup lines turned into one-up slam dunk contests and guys chucking the ball like footballs. It was worthless.
Tommy Amaker was a nice guy put into a program that was at its nadir. He refused to promote the program, shied away from radio and television, recruited well but never delivered once they got to campus. Perfect guy to weather the storm of the post-Ellerbe era, but nothing more, and nothing less.
All due respect Amaker/Horton, there is little room for criticism given that their biggest contribution was an NIT title, and Beilein had made the NCAA tournament.
Tell the French league bonjour for me. I'm doing just fine here in the NBA.
but I'll just focus on recruiting. first, the knock on stu and zach is weird considering beilein had 3 weeks to assemble a class and as juniors they are an assets to a middle of the pack big10 team. they are the only upper classmen.
beilein since that time has pulled in top 100 players in morris, smotz, and next year with brundige. both vogrich and hardaway jr., were both top 150 recruits, and 2011 burke and 2012 robinson III are both fringe top 100 players.
He makes some valid points, but not in the right way. It's not Beilein's fault, he is just doing what he knows. The blame belongs to..Lee Bollinger and Mary Sue Coleman and the ADs Goss and Martin. I feel like it's hard to find the balance between the University (academia, research, etc.) and Athletics, and the past two decades the University administration and president haven't cared much about athletics. Martin did a fantastic job at the end of his tenure with facilities and fundraising but I think they gave Amaker a lot of time and made a safe hire with Beilein. They could have scooped up a younger coach from the Michigan area who would have been very risky, but he could have awoken the echoes of Michigan Basketball from decades ago. I think Rich Rodriguez getting fired is David Brandon changing the way the Athletic Department works (RESULTS) and even though he did a poor job with the coaching search, I think he is the right man to get the basketball team back to relevance.
Look at what we were. It is sad watching that and thinking how low we sank. Michigan WAS college basketball. We'll be back, I've always thought Beilein would be the coach to set the foundation for the next guy (cough what amaker was supposed to do cough) to come in and win big. Beilein is getting up there in age, so I don't think this would end in a bad way.
Horton was just, uh, misguided in the way he went about it. I'm sure Dave Brandon has an open door policy on former Michigan athletes, especially in revenue sports.
Thanks for posting that video. I hope C. Webb makes it back at some point.
and recruiting are somewhat important, but on a scale of 1-10 how much of a Michigan Man does Horton find Belein to be?
i'm to the point where i just want our ex-players (football and basketball) to just shut the fuck up and go away.
and daniel horton is talking shit? did daniel horton develop by one percent in his entire time here? no, no he did not. and neither did any other player under amaker. everyone - including horton - was still making the same dumbassed turnovers and dumb shots as seniors that they were as freshmen. quick, name one player who got better under amaker...other than the 2- and 3-stars that horton bitches about.
maybe horton is looking in the mirror and hates the fact that beilein is taking guys that wouldn't have sniffed horton's aau teams and turning them into better, more complete players than he ever was.
is already a better PG than Horton was, and has already showed more improvement in his career than Horton did.
Needs to shut up. Has he taken a look at Darius Morris? Highly rated recruit who already is a star and will only get better. I was at the Kansas game, we played like crap and took the #3 team in the country to OT. I can honestly say I'm very comfortable with the basketball program right now and have full confidence in JB.
I would like to see a dominant big man. Not as bad as DH suggests.
So a guy who was a disappointing player almost a decade ago is knocking the program that he no connection with. This is why the whole Michigan Man crap needs to end - Horton is one, and I'm embarrassed to hear him speak.
1. He defended Amaker. Decent recruitier. Horrible coach.
2. He thinks Beilein should have done more to retain Legion. Nothing more to say about that.
3. Why are you Facebook friends with Daniel Horton?
This one statement--"Beilein came in and didn't even try to keep amakers top 10 recruiting class michigan had except for Manny"--is so laughable that I have no interest in commenting on anything else Horton says. Alex Legion? Really?
For the record, Beilein kept not only Manny but also Grady (who left later, of course, but that's another issue). Also, it's not like the roster that Beilein inherited from Amaker was filled with blue-chippers. Among the scholarship players were Reed Baker, Ron Coleman, K'Len Morris, Kendric Price, and Jerret Smith.
"Who's Darius Morris?" -- Daniel Horton
If you think taking two top-five teams to the wire, and taking your team to the Dance with a pair of walk-ons at the point isn't a sign of good coaching, then I want you to stop huffing paint and go shopping with me. We'll clean you up, son.
I must say that I have to agree. I just had this conversation with my cousin yesterday. Much like RR, I think that JB and his 1-3-1 zone has never been a fit in the big ten. And as for recruiting, he leaves a lot to be desired. He has never brought in a top recruit, or at least a decent big man, which IMO is essential to win in the big 10.
I hat to bring this up, but look at OSU. When Thad matta was hired they were in about the same or worse shape than we were/are and his second year brought in the number 1 or 2 recruiting class, and has continued to bring in top recruits and compete on a national level.
I think that this year would be the time to make a move. We have some good young talent that a great recruiter could come in and add to. Imagine this team 1-2 years down the road with an older/more experienced hardaway/Morris with a dominant big man added to the mix.
I hope that DB gives the same attention to mbb at the end of the season and makes a great hire for us.