Disagree. The talent is there to have at least a good pass rush. The main problem is that it's all young.
D-Line..too much rotation the problem?
to define the word talent. Some find it be more akin to "quality" and some to "natural ability/potential." I believe that is where you two are disagreeing, with no joke believing the former deffintion.
I think there might be something to this. Although, it might be more that we don't have the guys good enough to warrant more playing time so the response to that is to have fresh guys in there all of the time.
Even though they haven't played that well I think they have rotated on defense throughout these games so far. There might be less this week since they probably respect this offense a little more than any they have played so far aside from ND.
I don't think that is the issue though.
Many good teams are now regularly rotating d-linemen like us. Even Suh and Fairley sub out for the Lions.
I think some of the guys are not physically mature enough yet to dominate or we have overestimated their talent.
combination of mediocre upperclass talent (sorry QW and Ash) and inexperienced good talent (Wormley, Pip, Henry). Anyone else think the hit on Ondre was cheap? #83 on Minny targeted that hit and then popped up and got in Wormley's face.
If Ryan can play an extended amount of plays, I think the pass rush could get a shot in the arm with Beyer moving up there.
I see our best pass rushing line up as JMFR-Jibreel-QWash-Beyer
At least at the beginning of the season, the word had been that the rotation would be on a game basis, so for example, more uptempo offenses would probably mean less rotation.
That being said, one of the reasons that I believe Greg Mattison gave for setting up the typical rotation as it is now was to try and have fresh guys in there whenever possible, but also to achieve a consistent pass rush (an effort that is difficult to put forth if you're worn out). To be fair, the team has only 10 sacks to date (4 of them in the CMU game), but a majority of them are from the defensive line personnel - only about half of them were from the DL last year.
We still have a walk-on (Ryan Glasgow) getting lots of snaps in the rotation. I'm not sure if Heininger Certainity Principle applies right now.
Tells me that they are seeking to reach a balance between rotating and putting their best guys out there and they say that you have to earn your way into the rotation. I think we are a work in process on both offensive and defensive lines this year and we will just have to see how they develop.
What does that have to do with Hoke being a Dline coach?
Might be on to something. I think the rotation helps the young guys get game action. Obviously helps with rest. If MSU can turn not so good talent into play makers then why can't we.
The one plus I will give to Dantonio and his staff, at least his defensive staff, is that they are great at player development. They take the kids that no one else wants and turn them into stars.
My point exactly.
By know I would like a little less rotation. But D-line is a position that needs to be rotated. Guys will be worn out if they are infrequently rotated.
I understand getting guys rest so they can be fresh but too much rotation doesn't allow guy the time to work on their game and set their opponents up with different pass rush moves.
I don't think D-lineman get into a groove too much. I think they mostly just tire out.
No rushing TD's
Mattison employed this technique at Florida. It helped win him a national championship. He also used this in the NFL with the Ravens. I think that worked out pretty well, too.
Mattison is a proven commodity, and he knows what he's doing. We have a lot of talent on the defensive line, but its incredibly young and, in some cases, not ready for B1G competition yet. The guys that are there right now and getting the most reps, sad to say, just aren't gamechangers. Guys like Clark and Black have their moments, but not on a consistent basis like we'd like. I know we all thought Clark could be that guy, but so far, he's been all hype.
His play so far - while not bad - has been a good reminder to never be too excited about camp talk.
I'm a little disappointed that we haven't seen Taco a little more.
I think that's the key - it's not like any players have really separated themselves to the point where you would think about leaving them out longer. If your 2nd stringer is a minimal drop off from your 1st string, you might as well play fresh guys.
Generally I hate this line of reasoning because I think it stifles discussion, but if there's one topic where it really works it's this one: Trust the coaches. They know how quickly their players tire out, and what happens when they do. We don't. If Mattison thinks Clark or Washington are most effective in 3/4 down chunks, I trust him on that.
I remember the Cowboys of the 90's had a heavy rotation that was very effective with Tony Casillas, Russell Maryland, Leon Lett, Charles Haley, Jim Jeffcoat, Chad Hennings, Tony Tolbert, and probly others I can't think of at the moment.
I'm can't say that I'm suprised about the blah, blah, not enough talent talk. Hoke and Co. have already proven they can take a bunch of guys that have been completely vilified (2010-D) and turn them in to a top 20 defense. The talent level on the Dline is above average to good at the moment. Our older guys like Washington, Black, Clark are by no means All-Americans but anyone of them have the potential to be at least 2nd-team All B10 by years end.
Ojemudia, Pipkins, Wormley, Henry, Heitzman are all guys who are in their first or second year playing college level football. These guys aren't good rabble, rabble. We need more stars rabble, rabble. Give it a break guys. Defensive and offensive lines need time to mature. The lines are the hardest positions to make an impact no matter how great you were in high school. Dlineman need to be responsible for their gap assignments and or blow people the eff up!!! Rotation is necessary to have an elite line in today's high tempo offenses. Mattison wants guys to go as hard as they can every snap, who can do that for 60-70 snaps?
tl:dr: We're young, give these guys time to mature and they'll be very good. Heavy rotation lets the guys go hard as they can.
Great lines Both Offensive and Defensive, need real game experience to gel, they're getting it now.
We'll see if they stand up to the upcoming challanges that await them.
You may be right, and my coming point may be the exception rather than the rule, but I see many examples of freshman and sophomore guys stepping in and being successful right away. Where is our guy on the d-line that does that? Pipkins had the recruiting profile to do so and didn't. Taco has the recruiting profile and hasn't yet. It may not be the norm but it does happen all the time...it just has not happened for us. Maybe it's a numbers game, but nonetheless. I hope we don't face the same learning curve for our incoming talented class of '14 because we need guys like Mone, Hand (if he commits), McDowell (if he commits) & Marshall to be successful before they are juniors.
Michigan has the ninth best rush defense in the ncaa and we're 5-0. Sometimes I think we should make people watch games from the Gerg era before they post to remind themselves how bad it used to be.
We better learn to do whatever "rotation" it is that Mattison wants, faster. Or we are going to get pantsed by a fast, no-huddle offense. All of the rotation/substitutions/flipping that Michigan was doing last Saturday cost us a couple of Minnesota third-down conversions.
is now behind QWash in the NT three-deep, with Ryan Glasgow as the third man in. During games Richard will now rotate into the NT position regularly. I sincerely hope Richard sees this as his golden opportunity. This is his fourth year in the program; he's stuck it out, he's among the last of the RR recruits, and is the absolute last of the Pahokee pipeline. Whether Richard gets a fifth year is doubtful at best, even with Pipkins's injury. But with regular PT for the remaining six games he can maxmize whatever potential he has and maybe show scouts he's worthy of an NFL look --- it's up to him.