Maybe Angry Michigan Secondary Hating God wasn't just a RichRod thing...
Maybe Angry Michigan Secondary Hating God wasn't just a RichRod thing...
I swear this has been what people have thought the past 3 years. Do you know how often true freshmen CBs start and are actually good?
FIrst of all, CB is one of the easier positions to contribute at as a young player. Woodson, Marlin, Leon Hall and DWarren all started or contributed as true freshmen and were good to very good.
But really, no one was expecting freshman Cullen Christian to start and be good. But the fact is, no CB on the team was playing well at all, and other true freshmen were getting the nod before CC. So I don't think the expectation was for CC to come in and be as good as Marlin Jackson as a freshman, but the fact that he wasn't even as good as Terrence Talbott as a freshman left a bit to be desired from a top-100 All American.
rather than the exception.....
My thoughts exactly. All were/are NFL calibur.
Cullen Christian had an exceptional profile as a recruit.
That's pretty much where the bar is set with a top-100 Army All-American recruit.
Unfortunately, that is sort of par for the course around here. I think the same thing everytime people bitch about Brandon Inge at thirdbase for the Tigers. They don't seem to understand that it is OK if every guy on your team doesn't hit .300 with 35 home runs every year. If you are lucky, you have a few stars and the rest of your team is solid. If you get 3-5 freshman making solid contributions you are doing pretty well with your recruiting. Not every recruit is Woodson even if they are a 4 star kid.
He is a career .237 hitter that is average to slightly above at 3rd. For the amount that he is being paid there could be a better replacement.
He actually is hitting over .250 since he was permanently moved to 3B. Not that it's amazing or anything, but it's not like there's a plethora of Adrian Beltres and Evan Longorias out there just waiting to be snatched up. Middle infield, corner outfield, and middle relief are much bigger areas of need.
No offense, but I'll take the opinions of MLB players that Brandon Inge is one of the top 3 or 4 fielders in all of baseball over yours that he's an average 3rd baseman:
And in all fairness, he's batted .250 since moving to third base (not that .250 is great, but it's certainly better than .237)
You could be excused for expecting to have a guy like that on the roster. Obviously, you could not have a freshman starting every year, but the caliber of player was there.
Actually, it's not that rare. Lots of guys have done it at Michigan in the past 20 years or so. And Cullen didn't even need to be good. All he had to do was be bad, which is better than incredibly-pathetic-apocalyptically-awful, to get on the field.
YOu obviously educate yourself on meatspin.com
I'm blaming the bearer of bad news--you! Michigan can't really afford to have him flame out or transfer.
This would be bad, although I've been waiting for some transfers due to the coaching change.
Not that I want him to, but I think we would be fine if he transferred. We have a lot of scholarship bodies at CB (Woolfolk, Anderson, Floyd, Avery, Talbott, Brown, Countess, Hollowell, Raymond Taylor).
Don't think Anderson is on scholarship - he's a walk on. I guess maybe he could be projected to get one of the unused scholarships on a one year basis next year, but right now we only have 1 open (our recruiting class brought us up to 85 counting Kovacs as a scholarship player, then Vinopal transfered opening 1 scholarship up. Mike Williams didn't come back, but that scholly was presumably taken by Evans). I would guess the 1 extra would go to someone like McColgan, Heininger or Leach before Anderson.
Wasnt he also the one who was rumored to have skipped the first few practices or something like that?
who eventually decided to stay. Let's hope CC does the same
That was Terrence Talbott
sweet. start drinking before the wings game.
I was expecting more to transfer w/ Vinopal, happy none didn't.
There will be more, but I wasn't necessarily expecting it on D with the Mattison hire unless the player was a tweener who now didn't have a position. The players will finish out the semester and then leave so they can keep their class ranking academically.
With so many players not having RSed they will have the opportunity to use that RS year to transfer without losing any eligibility. I was right by the tunnel during the spring game and there were some players that looked pretty unhappy coming off the field after the game. You can't blame a kid for wanting to play and if their position has basically been eliminated you can't blame them for leaving. On the positive side it will open some more scholarships for this class.
But, if we keep saying that it opens up more scholarships for incoming players then we will never get out of our current problem of having a heavily underclass team. Besides, how many more highly-touted players can we lose? Cullen Christian hasn't had the benefit of having quality coaching for an extended period of time. Fifteen practices is nothing. Who knows, the lightbulb may come on for him this summer and he may become an All-Conference player by his Junior year.
Bottom line: We need quality players to stay and grow. Let the players that we don't need or the ones that can't tow the line fall by the wayside. I think we need to start recruiting kids who want to compete for playing time but aren't such prima donnas that if they don't play right away they want to quit.
if he follows him to Pitt. At some point the light bulb has to go on for the kid, even if you feel allegiance to your old coach. If you think about the resumes of the guys coaching the defense now vs the previous staff, it simply does not compare and I would not be able to understand why he would make the move. I would love to see Cullen try to learn skills from a good staff.
I'm not surprised since he was clearly beat out by Avery and seemingly Brown this spring. Might be a bust anyway but I refuse to give a final grade to a true soph in spring. Hopefully it's not true but if it is I won't shed a tear. It'll be great to be deep enough that we won't recruit with the sales pitch of early playing time cuz when that doesn't workout they almost always leave. If true, we have another scholarship available for this recruiting class. We'll get some more transfers by the fall, we should all be numb to this by now anyway.
"Hopefully it's not true but if it is I won't shed a tear. It'll be great to be deep enough..."
This is blatant taunting of the anrgy michigan secondary-hating god.
As a true soph he is likely currently in the 2 deep and got some experience last year. Supposedly Woolfolk and Floyd will return to CB this year, but who knows if Woolfolk will be 100%. Besides that I think Avery has established himself and that is about it. Very disappointing if true; he had a shot to play this year.
Not to mention if CB didn't work out for him he certainly has the size for safety; another position we aren't exactly loaded at. Hope ya stay, CC!
Floyd is more of a question than Woolfolk at this point.
Cullen wasn't going to be in the two-deep. He couldn't beat out Anderson or Avery this spring which sticks him in third when everyone returns. And that's not counting Countess, Taylor and Brown (who has looked decent of late supposedly). And while UM is not extremely deep at Safety they seem to be pretty good with Carvin there and someone like Carter probably moving there when he gets in
And Hollowell. It's not a stretch to say that one of those guys passes Cullen on the depth chart, and then Cullen would always have people his age or younger ahead of him. Not to mention that even if he moved, our safeties are Carvin, Marvin, Furman and T Gordon, all guys his eligibility or younger.
First of all, he doesn't really have the size for safety. He has the height, but he's only 187, so he'd be smaller than most other safeties by a good margin. Plus, I've never heard that Cullen likes to hit, or can tackle well, something you can get away with a lot more at corner than safety. If he can't make it as a corner, I doub't he'll make it as a safety.
I have to say, this isn't terribly surprising. He saw very little playing time last year when we played a lot of young DBs. And now that Woolfolk is back and the younger guys are passing him, maybe he's just not as good as we thought.
Unfortunate, yes. Surprising, not really.
Carvin Johnson is only 195. It wouldn't be hard for Christian to get there if needed.
I don't think Christian is a safety because I've said all along that he's a poor tackler, but I don't think size would be a big issue for him. He needs gumption more than anything else.
I agree that the size wouldn't be a major hurdle, but Carvin is 195 and knows how to hit with every pound of it, Cullen is not a guy who can make up for his size well. And he'd still be the smallest safety on the roster, which is not exactly "he has the size to move to safety" as much as "he could bulk up to safety size."
But I also agree that size aside, CC is not a safety.
I don't think he's fast enough to play corner. I was watching him during warmups for the spring game and he looked extremely slow when doing back pedal drills. Whether this was related to effort or speed i can't say, but in either case it is not a good sign.
This would mean we got absolutely nothing out of our last three Army All American DBs, BooBoo, JT, and CC. So much for recruiting rankings (I kid).
Rumors suggested that Christian had a back issue, which is why he didn't play much (or at all?) in the spring game. From what I've heard, he was being held out of contact. That might explain some slowness in his backpedal, although I agree he's not a burner even at full strength.
I think he played more earlier in the year and just seemed like he needed more time. I remember seeing him in the practice videos, but don't remember him playing last sat
If he could survive last year he should be able to withstand anything. I'd hate to see this kid go just because his best days are ahead of him.
100% Agree. He's been through the fire. I hope he stays and gives himself a chance to develop. Besides the APR can't handle any more transfers. As far as more schollies to hand out this year, if APR gets messed up we lose scholarships. I hope he sticks it out and makes his way onto the field.
Sad to hear. I had high hopes for him, but this means we have 1 more scholarship to hand out in 2012
of looking at it considering he has 3 years of eligibility
maybe this could be a blessing in hiding. This could as the previous poster mentioned leave room for A second DB like T-rich or another O-linemen for depth
they would make room for anyways.
this isnt the SEC, we either have room or we don't, we don't "make" room
Why is T Rich the second DB? Just curious?
Nice reaction based off what is currently just a vague rumor. Not like it's possible the whole thing's untrue...
He really ought to wait it out, in my opinion. He's still got a redshirt year to play with, and Woolfolk will be gone after next year. I think he should see whether he can beat out Avery, Countess, Brown, etc. and see where things go from there. If it doesn't work, he could sit out 2012 and still have two years to make an impact somewhere else.
The players and coaches were supposedly meeting this week. It's possibly he realized after that meeting that his future may be better off elsewhere
Maybe someone should tell cullen that Magnus thinks he should wait it out, as magnus knows what's best for him.... Lol
Your standards for laughing out loud are pretty low. You must be one of the easily amused people who tuned into "Two and a Half Men" on a weekly basis.
he's also drinking Faygo and eating a box of thin mints on 4/20... . . That explains both the lol and the post!
This type of comment is so stupid. It's a message board. If you don't want to read opinions, much less reasonable, thought out opinions, don't go to message boards. lol
seemingly beaten out by Avery, Tony Anderson and Greg Brown?
Maybe someone needs to heed the advise of incoming frosh Frank Clark, and realize the fault of not starting/playing lays within.
Damn the internets and their ability to bring me bad news -er rumors to worry about in April.
Is it too early for this? (Sorry for the half-a$$ed construction.)
We also need to add Vinopal to the quilt.
What's our APR looking like these days?
We should be OK, assuming CC is academically eligible if/when he leaves, and I haven't heard he isn't. Unless a lot more guys leave, we should be in the clear for now.
Eh, I'm not so sure on this. We were dangerously close to the borderline a couple years back, and there's been plenty of attrition since.
Our APR takes a hit even if he is in good standing when he leaves. It's just worse if he's not. But let's just let this all play out first.
So no 2 deep is decided and nobody has said Cullen cannot break the 2 deep if he puts in the offseason work or be the nickel back or win a starting job......
Point is to play anywhere he has to put the work in, and he will have to beat out 4-6 other players to crack the 2 deep or win a starting job. Leaving is quiting when things are tough.............
Don't just be posting over here all innocent, like you didn't neg TomVH. I'm on to you, buddy.
Then people realized points were worthless and stopped complaining about everytime Tom and Brian got negged for a while, and it just wasn't that entertaining anymore. If Tom's point guardian's are back on the prowl, I may have to get back into the game.
Someone's gotta stand up against the cult of personality TomVH has going.
Says the guy who has Coach Hoke looking like a Michigan Oompa Loompa in his avatar and can't seem to resist making a GIF out of Coach's every move.
That's Brady Hoke in his avatar? I thought it was Earl's brother from "My Name is Earl."
hurt? He didn't play at all last weekend, did he? I thought he was held out? Could be wrong...
IIRC, didn't Cullen play with Brandon Ifill? He is at Pitt, as is Tony Gibson. I honestly wouldn't be shocked.
You are correct.
Okay team, I know how we feel about tradition here at Michigan but if there's -- as we strongly suspect -- a particularly nasty hazing ritual for guys who are 2nd on the depth chart at defensive back, please stop it. We need the dudes!
Really? I thought it was hilarious.
5 consecutive years, Michigan has recruited an Army All-American CB.
2007 - Donovan Warran - pretty solid starter for us, but never really reached potential and left early to go undrafted.
2008 - Boubacar Cissoko - scorched by ND his soph year which sparked a not-so-thriving drug selling business. 1.5 years with the team.
2009 - Justin Turner - redshirted as a frosh due to reported issues of weight and effort, then before his second year he transfered to an NAIA school.
2010 - Cullen Christian - top 100 player who couldn't see the field much as a freshman even when UM was playing every freshman DB in that recruited class, even starting one after JT Floyd got injured. Even Terrence Talbott was going in before CC last fall, and now this rumor.
2011 - Blake Countess - PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE BREAK THIS PATTERN BLAKE!
Not that this means anything, but I like Countess more than I did any of those other guys except Donovan Warren. So if he has a career equal to or better than Warren, I'll be pretty happy (especially if he stays for all four years).
Well, if he makes it to his senior year in Ann Arbor, he'll do something none of the others have. So I hope you're right, but I'm pretty sure Countess is the lowest rated of that group, at least per Rivals. That doesn't mean a lot though, since they were all very highly rated.
You know, sometimes I think you actually are Brandon Graham.
I wish. Then I wouldn't have to pay for hookers. It's a real drag on my finances.
You wouldn't have to pay for hookers or you wouldn't need hookers?
Sometimes I think you are actually William Taft.
Common denominator: Tony Gibson.
All of those guys received most if not all of their CB "training" from Tony Gibson. Gibson was widely loathed by WVU fans when he was at that fine institution for a general lack of competence. I'm hopeful that his exodus will lead to a revival of sound/excellent CB play at UM.
Wish the kid the best regarding his decision. Definitely a blow if he leaves, but there is some depth at the CB positions.
It may be true and may not, but I fully expect to see at least 4 players leave. There are logjams at a few places, and I am quite sure that Brady Hoke is very honest with players about where they fit into the program. Honestly, I'm just glad we are not seeing nearly the attrition one would expect from a coaching change, especially with a system change.
I also fully believe that the ones who leave are going to be players who weren't going to get much playing time anyway and "saw the writing on the wall." At least I hope that's how it works out.
GBW that posted the info. He will be requesting his release tomorrow. If you have questiosn about where I heard it, it was straight from the horses mouth. He gave me additional details, but none that would make him look good. too bad
Yeah, but where did the horse hear it?
from the same voice in his mind that is telling him he should be starting. I was trying to convince him to stay, but he thinks the coaches are out to get him, just like RR's staff was. quiet kid, but a prima donna nonetheless.
I did not expect a serious answer.
Well I guess he's not going to Pitt
Pitt would make sense. It's becoming Casablanca for Michigan refugees.
Honestly, though, I've had a close view of what's happened at Pitt recently. They're program is ripe with opportunity, because the club almost imploded after what has to be the most singularly disastrous coaching change in the history of the gridiron. They lost a lot of good recruits and starters because of the late unpleasantness, and due to the strong common ties to West Virginia, I think it's a natural home for RichRod's former players.
the post above indicates he believed RR's staff was also out to get him. Gibson was RR's DB staff, and CC's position coach. So I don't think he'd want to head out there
Other than that I agree, and would add that I think he and Vinopal were friends
Sure, sure. It's quite possible Gibson doesn't want CC any more than CC wants Gibson. It's possible he didn't think much of CC and would say "not the kind of guy we need." Who knows.
Cullen should dig deep and and say "I'm not gonna quit. I'm going to see this to the end." Just like we all did during his press conference when he (eventually) picked UM.
I miss the days when frosh/sophs didn't transfer just because they weren't number one or two on the depth chart.
Was there ever a time like that or is that just me remembering the past too fondly?
should have to redshirt if it were up to me. A lot of these kids think just because they were stars in HS that it automatically translates to college. Big reality/ego check for a lot of them.If they all had to redshirt it might humble them a bit.
Back in th day, they had to play JV their freshmen year. At this point, I wouldn't mind seeing those days come again. Maybe it's the times...with so many FBS schools, every one wnats to be a star from day one, without having to work for it. So if they can't...they transfer, because someone always needs them. I'd almost like to see the JV rule come back. Never thought I'd say that...
Guys today have to work harder than they ever did. Back in the day, no one had to lift and the systems were a lot simpler. Football used to be a game you practiced after school. Now it's a full-time job.
Also, with 85 players, Freshman have to contribute--at least in practice. I read somewhere that coaches hope for about eight players per class to actually develop into good players. The increased size and speed doesn't work well for everyone.
Last thing I'll say is this. The recruiting culture today contributes heavily to the attitude of entitlement in some kids. I'm not into recruiting, but the folks who breathlessly follow the updates and pray that player X comes to their school can't complain when an 18 year-old actually thinks he's hot shit after everyone tells them they are.
I'm not saying it's you, it's just a general feeling I have.
I think it's a combination of both. It's surprising to look back at classes from the '80's and '90's and see how many kids didn't stick around for their entire careers.
Currently we have 9 redshirt seniors and 6 true seniors, and only five of them (Molk, Odoms, Shaw, Koger, Martin) were big contributors in their first couple years. It's frustrating to watch kids transfer, but there are also 9 seniors* who had to grind it out.
*I didn't count Evans, since he transferred away and then came back. He didn't transfer for playing reasons, but nonetheless...
I think that if he leaves our odds of adding a player better than him Is pretty good. We did pick up alot of DBs in last year's class, so I don't think depth will be a problem. Now would it be better to have CC or pick up either Richardson, Morgan, Reeves or Cooper? I think that we'll be ok if he does decide to leave.
It would be better to have players who actually stick with the program. I don't really care who it is, but freshmen aren't going to play much unless they're super awesome. So if they keep leaving, they're going to leave opportunities for guys like James Rogers to win starting jobs by default.
People wonder how Wisconsin and their army of 2-3* players outplays teams that regularly out-recruit them. I'm sure it has a lot to do with having more experienced players that have come up in the same system for several years and have more than 1 year of college S&C.
I must be one of the few people on here that believes that upperclass leadership/numbers is important over almost anything. You want people to stick with the program, as Magnus has stated. It also looks bad to recruits who perceive it as the coaches who aren't competent enough to get a blue chip player on the field.
Upperclassmen know how to win and are able to dig deep when times get tough. We haven't had that for four years and it has shown on the field. I hate tSIO, but they have an uncanny knack for developing players for two years before they ever step foot on the field. You don't see too many of them complain and leave for lack of playing time. Nothing kills me more than hearing a coach tell a player that they will see early playing time because of their current skill set.
Hoke/Mattison/Mallory meetings if HE16 is on the level and CC does request a transfer?
It doesn't sound like he gets the TEAM concept or understand competition at his position will only make him a better player and person. I'm hoping this staff is better at handling bruised egos than RR and Co. A definite loss if this does not work out with him staying.
Get down, make love.
And another one bites the dust, between him and Turner I am just going to stop looking forward to kids becoming beasts on the field.
Said it before and will say it again; kids just dont want to wait, they would rather go to a shitty ass college and be BMOC (big man on campus) rather than 1-2 years of playing time @ a high profile school.
I might be completely mistaken or getting my players mixed up, but wasn't it rumored that he was gonna transfer a couple of months ago too?
your thinking about tallbot....
it would suck but not a huge loss
Yes, there were vague rumors around the beginning of spring practice.
Thanks Magnus. I knew I heard something, albiet very vague like you stated.
One more scholarship as others have stated, good luck CC if you choose to leave.I would also state that transferring has not help any other on of the DB's that have left since Mundy.
On the surface, I guess that's true...although most of those guys who have transferred haven't really had an opportunity to play elsewhere yet. Turner, Emilien, and Brandon Smith have been sitting out waiting for their chance to play, and Vinopal will be sitting out the 2011 season.
I had expected more players to transfer by now. Its always happens with a regime change, maybe this summer...
With that said, I do hope Cullen stays. Contrary to a previous posting, cornerback is not an easy position to play. Yes, we can point to people like Woodson as an example, but the reality is that your strong side corner takes away half of the field, and in most defenses the strong corner is the 2nd most important player for a defense behind your Mike linebacker (note: some may argue noste tackle is 2nd). Weakside corner is similarly valuable.
So having players with as much "raw cover ability" as CC is something we don't want to lose. I am confident CC could play free with some coaching (pursuit angles, hitting, etc). And of course nickle & dime packages.
Now it is true that he is way down on the depth chart, and it does seem obvious that Avery (at this stage of their careers) is developing into a better corner. Nevertheless, we can never have enough coverage defensive backs, and losing as 4-star will inevitably be a bad thing (ie Justin Turner).
Has lots of upside. Those who stay will be champions
I really enjoyed having Cullen and Colton Christian in maize. I referred to them both as Culten. I live out of state and told my friends, who know close to nothing about M athletics, that they were the same person. Hopefully, they weren't paying attention.
football position. And while some (kicker) are easier than others (quarterback), for instance, a kid attending school full time and learning to play Division 1 defense with a new and former college/and/professional coach (Mattison) has his hands full. It takes a hell of a lot of gumption (credit-Magnus) to excel at Michigan as a student athlete. Certainly harder for some than others, but I'm hoping that the athletes who stay understand that becoming a Champion applies to both football and academics, and excelling at both concurrently is a difficult task. Spare me the 'playing cornerback or safety is easy' nonsense. Go Blue
The Big House Blog is reporting that theres rumors swirling that DJ Williamson is also looking to tranfer his way out of Michigan too. First time I"ve heard rumors about him, but I guess I can see it since he might not be the best fit in a Pro Style offense I guess?