spoiler alert: i linked this
Crazy End to the Wisconsin Game
HEY WISCONSIN HOLD ONTO A FUCKING TIMEOUT!!!!!!!! what i would love to know is how the three timeouts were used in both games. 12 in the huddle, qb wasn't paying attention to play clock....
Taking the timeouts while your opponent is driving is statistically better than saving them up for when you're driving. If you're out of timeouts you get to hurry up, spike, ect. Your oponent isn't going to do that for you so you end up with more seconds of play if you burn all of them on your opponent's last drive.
Some coaches have caught up to this fact but most coaches' metagaming is still back in the stone age because of the way promotions happen within the coaching world.
should have kicked it the play before, but that doesn't excuse that unreal display by the officials. Allowed an ASU player to lay on the ball for 10 or seconds, without making any attempt to spot it knowing Wisky needs to spike it. Pee-wee level officiating, and than they run off the field like cowards acting as if they didn't just screw up royally.
I thought at first that Stave may have placed the ball before taking a knee, but he did in fact take a knee first. Not like the refs were ruling it a fumble either, so there is no reason not to spot it.
Just a ridiculous display.
I just watched the melt footage fed from the broadcast truck and on one of the angles with about 10s left in the game you can see Stave tell the head ref repeatedly that they want to spike the ball. And you can see the ref acknowledge them. Now what the other guy was doing allowing the ASU player to just lay on the ball is beyond me. That's the guy that screwed Wisky.
What was he thinking? The clock does not stop when the QB is down. Has to be an incomplete pass.
you're dumb right? He was centering it not trying to clock it
clock was still running. Look at his reaction when he looks up and sees the clock is still running.
He was surprised because ASU players were piled up on the ball and the official was doing nothing to clear the pile and not stopping the clock in the face of obvious delaying tactics. He got up ready to clock it, but wasn't given the opportunity because his linemen couldn't line up.
i'm guessing the umpire (who places the ball) thought that the play may have been a fumble, if he didn't see the QB take a knee. I didn't see him take the knee during live play. However, the Referee was clearly calling it down and Wisky ball. The Referee should have taken control and told the Umpire to spot the ball for Wisky but didn't. I blame the head Referee. In any case, it's way too risky for Wisky to try that play with no timeouts. the angle for the kick doesn't mean that much from that distance.
Wisco got jobbed there. But the QB should have taken a knee and gotten the ball to the ref right away. I don't know what the hell he did there.
strange, he did in fact take a knee prior to placing the ball.
Are you sure he took a knee? I only watched the clip on my iphone but it didn't seem that way to me.
If not, it'd have been ASU ball anyway, no?
a couple people in the thread said he did when they replayed it. That was also clearly the ruling on the field since the refs didn't signal it was ASU ball. Also why would it be ASU ball with a kneel? It wasn't 4th down.
It's weird - on the video, it doesn't look like he ever goes down. I guess he maybe should have stayed kneeling for a second or two longer. And he definitely shouldn't have tried to spot the ball himself. Watching the video replay, it looks like he just rolls left and sets the ball on the ground, which would be a fumble.
Taking a knee runs clock.
Case in point: victory formation.
Refs biffed it, but Wiscy took a stupid risk.
Wisconsin had 15 seconds to spike the ball, that is plenty of time. In a game where the referees don't let ASU players lay on the ball for ten seconds and then make Wiscy players wait that play call is fine.
Exactly. The correct way to manage that situation as a QB is to take a knee and hand the ball directly to the ref so that he can immediately spot the ball and you can spike it with time remaining for the FG. Not sure why he spotted the ball himself, allowing the ASU DT to cover it as the clock ran out. Probably should have been a flag for delay of game called on ASU.
I was just listening to that on the radio. Sounds like a major screw up by the officials. Shouldn't they have called ASU for a delay of game?
have been a delay of game. ASU player was laying on the ball refusing to move, knowing it was eating away the clock. Ref should have gotten him off the ball immediately, considering it wasn't being ruled a fumble.
I don't think delay of game would have been the right call, but the refs should definitely have stopped the clock until the ASU players got off the ball.
Wisky downed the ball with 18 sec left. No way it should have taken that long for the ref to set the ball.
That said, Wisky was pretty laggardly getting lined up when they should have known they needed to spike. But I think they get the spike in time if the ref isn't waving them off till the clock hits 1.
It was going to be close regardless as you can no longer spike the ball inside 3 seconds.
Really? I didn't know that. That seems like an odd rule. What's the point?
Ask Ryan Leaf, if you can find what bridge he's living under now.
He should have had 10 seconds to spike the ball.
I dunno. It's difficult to get lined up on the ball when the officials are first letting the ASU players play around with it for so long and then literally stopping Wisco players from touching it (watch the ref holding up his hand, telling the Wisco center to wait). It seems to me that Wisco got jobbed here pretty bad.
And the loss here only makes the big ten look even worse--they can do that themselves, they certainly don't need the refs to help.
This was a complete screw up by the refs. It was clearly a delay of game on the Arizona State player laying on the ball. I'm glad I'm not a Wisconsin fan.
It was both bad game management by the Badgers and an epic screw job. If someone fails to get set on your spike attempt, the game is over. That risk is greater than getting Stanford Band'd.
And then just holy shit officials.
There's a reason the maxim "Don't put yourself in a position where the refs can cost you the game" exists.
Well then according to that maxim, don't ever play a game with refs...
that certainly makes things less dubious or not.
Yeah the weird part is even after all the mess with the ASU guy on the ball, Wisky still had some time. But the ref was literally holding up his hand signaling telling them the couldn't snap.
junk job by the refs
Yeah in season the Badgers have pissed me off to no end in recent years. This was horrendous and the Big Ten should file a complaint. It was clear Wisconsin should have had a chance at a potential game winning field goal.
Just absolute garbage and those refs need to join the refs from the Texas Tech game and go back to Pee Wee where they belong. This is big boys football and the players, coaches, and fans deserve better than this atrocity.
Like I said before just the perfect capper to this day in college football.
As somebody else said at least we're not Texas.
Good luck Longhorns fans with Gerg and his beaver. He's not a bad guy or anything but he doesn't seem to have any schematic advantages coaching defenses.
Yup, still bothers me too.
To be fair, the Pac 12 refs got the call in that picture right, but were overruled by Big Ten ref Gil Marchman.
I'm not sure if he got his knee down or not. Right as he's kneeling he gets bumped by his lineman.
Regardless, they should've rushed to the line and got set for the spike even if the ASU guy was on the ball.
until the official had spotted it and signaled that it was in play. The ref was actually signaling for Wisconson to stay back. The ref wasn't making an effort with any urgency to spot it in time, and the offense can't actually get over the ball until that happens.
I am a Sun Devil and after the screw job I watched in Madison a few years ago I can't say I feel bad for Wisconsin.
Don't know why you even take a knee in the first place. Horrible officials though. They could have reviewed to see if it was a fumble, which would have allowed themto reset the game clock and try it again.... Or just run off the field after they clearly messed up.
The whole gamble to center the ball with no timeouts is just stupid. Right before the play the announcer even says "its risky and there's a lot of things that can go wrong." You need a FG to win, you have a great drive to get in range, so just kick the FG. Wisky outsmarted themselves.
I agree with you, but I see why they did it. High-angle field goals from short distance aren't as easy as you might think.
Wisconsin payed the price for being passive and placing their hopes in the hands of the refs.
With 18 seconds left, Hoke would have had Gardbinson throw to Roundgallon in the endzone twice before thinking of settling for a FG.
The refs were about as gutless as the Wiscy kneeldown the way they handled this. Terrible all around. Wisconsin can blame the refs, but they owned putting refs in that position.
Hoke would have done no such things down by 2.
maybe Gardbinson would only throw to Roundgallon once in the endzone instead of twice.
Clock stopped, mission accomplished.
If you look what he did with the name of the QB, in addition to the WR, it makes sense.
Except I would have expected Gallon to be first given the order of the QB... so
With no timeouts? Wrong, Hoke would've kicked. If you want precedent, see last years Northwestern game.
But there was more time in this situation. In the NW game, there was only something like seven seconds left. Here, there were 18 seconds. I think Hoke may have taken one quick shot at the endzone. I don't think he'd have called any kind of a running play (including a kneel), though.
QB kneels at 16 seconds ( a little akwardly as he get hits by his own lineman).
More importantly, head ref signals down at 11 seconds.
Obvious delay of game penalty, obvious ref screw up. Shouldn't take 11, yet alone 16 seconds to spot a ball.
I go to Wisconsin and madison is currently erupting in rage. It's plain and simple; laying on the ball for 10 seconds is a delay of game penalty. It is unacceptable to not enforce a blatant and clear rule in the most crucial moment of the game. Unacceptable.
Karma for what? Fans bitching that her husband left?
Madison hates you, Jen.
enjoy Arkansas...besides, what did they do for you, except give your husband a job...and your ugly!
but Stave was standing 3 yards back telling his team to get set with 3 seconds on the clock. If they had been at the line ready with 10 seconds left and the foolishness with marking the ball ready to play was still going on, ok, but Wisconsin didn't even try to line up until 1-2 seconds were left. This one is 80% on Wisconsin, 20% on the refs.
yep, Stave is busy arguing with the refs because none of them know what the hell they called.
Wisconsin earned the refs incompetence. Fully agree.
with ASU player laying on the ball for 10 seconds. Also if you look at the ref he was actually telling Wisconson players to wait to get over the ball, if I was the Wisky center I would have been tempted to snatch the ball right from the ref.
what if Wisconsin wins out. Holy crap
Interesting that the Arizona State guy sat on the football to run the clock. A very similar situation took place in 7th ranked Michigan's win over unranked Notre Dame in 1999. At the end if the game, jarious Jackson passed to bobby brown to take the lead, but a controversial taunting penalty forced them to kick from way back and Michigan marched down and A Train put us up. If I recall correctly (going on memory here), ND had another chance to score, but on a hairy play as time ran out and chaos all over the place, a Michigan linebacker squatted over the football to hide it and drain more seconds off the clock.
By the way, here is brown talking about that play, the "moose imitation penalty", the apology letter he received from the ref, and the entertainment company he named "excessive celebration".
Don't blame the officials for Bob Davie's consistently bad clock management.
My recollection from that game is that your team foolishly threw over the middle of the field, despite having no timeouts, and couldn't line up for the next play in time.
I agree on that. I'm certainly not a notre dame fan. True Blue here. Just being honest that I thought a Michigan player squatted over the ball in that game.
I'm not sure why you are pointing out what a Michigan player has done in the past has anything to do with what happened to Wisc. Anyone who is blaming anyone except for the refs is a moron, players are out there to win games, coaches are out there to win games, refs are out there to make sure everyone is doing it within the confines of the rules. Want to take a guess on who failed?
College football everybody.
(or whatever its called on SI.com) because I don't have the internet speeds to stream. The final score showed up, and I thought it was a glitch that Wisco didn't at least try to kick the field goal--for the win.
Damn shame what happened there.
just awful. nobody deserves to lose like that
Wisky did or didn't do I have no idea what was going through the minds of the officials. I mean they should know Wisky needed to spike it quickly, but yet they were acting with the same urgency to spot the ball that you would see in the middle of the second quarter. That is just mind boggling.
I am also highly suspicious about them being Pac 12 refs.
I'm in Tempe for the night and nobody here understood. Just pure craziness. I think I witnessed either the worst officiating or worst clock management or both of all time.
It looked to me like when he went to kneel-down, he hit his lineman's leg, preventing his knee from touching the ground. He then put the ball down, and the ASU player jumped on it, thinking that it was still a live ball. I'm not sure how you can fault the guy for laying on what he thought was a loose ball. I don't believe he was doing it to intentionally prevent Wisconsin from being able to snap it, like some people are claiming.
And of course, ESPN failed to show a replay of the attempted kneel. Good job, good effort, WWL.
At first I thought Wisconsin got hosed, but than when I watch the replay I see the QB over talking to the referee, he never go to the line of scrimmage in time to spike it. The confusion was his fault and either way he should have been at the line of scrimmage ready to spike the ball not talking to the referee. Even if the other ref had gotten out of the way, they would not have got the snap off in time. Major screw up by the QB.
It was as if the whole Wisconsin team forgot that time was running out.
But there still should have been a delay of game penalty called on ASU.
Anytime a B1G team plays on the west coast with PAC-12 refs they are going to get this type of treatment. Unlike the idiots who do our games, the PAC 12 officials view themselves as an extension of him field advantage and will knowingly and purposely stick it to us each and every game they can.
If Bo was still around you could ask him-he'd tell you the same.
Crap like this is why I never want Michigan to play an away game on the West coast ever again. It happens EVERY time you play a Pac 10/12 team. The refs cheat so bad for their home conference teams that it just isn't worth scheduling them.
If Stave was trying to spike the ball, it seems like he certainly did it wrong by the rules. He should have just done it under center as normal and after the snap rather than roll out a few feet and realize that this is what he wanted to do / was supposed to do. Where he was, he really should have just taken the knee at that point (but I will say it isn't clear that he did anything other than put the ball on the ground, which would make it a fumble in this scenario), but yeah, the play was whistled dead at about 0:13 or so and nobody in a striped shirt seemed to realize it.
He wasn't trying to spike it with 18 seconds left. (There was no need - on the previous play, the UW receiver had gone out of bounds.) He was trying to center the ball for the field goal (and possibly burn a bit of clock as well).
Stave didn't clearly kneel down. It looked like he tapped the ball on the ground, then dropped it which is a fumble. Too bad. If you don't want a stupid result, don't make a stupid half-assed play. If I were the ASU defender, I would've jumped on the ball too.
This isn't true though, there are plenty of angles that show he took a knee and then placed the ball down. It wasn't a fumble it was Stave giving himself up, why do people keep insisting that he fumbled?
Edit: pic now included that show his knee clearly down, it's posted earlier in the thread as well.
While Stave should have been a little more proactive kneeling down and then handing the ball to the referee, the officiating royal screwed up by allowing the ASU DT to sit on the ball and then, once it was clear Wiscy was trying to get set, not spot the ball properly. I'm usually not one for filing appeals for poor officiating, but this was a rather obvious flub that directly cost Wisconsin a chance to win the game.
Otherwise they should have stopped the clock for change of possession shortly after the ASU player fell on the ball.
Wisconsin and Stave only have themselves to blame. They didn't have a sense of urgency, weren't focused, or whatever you want to call it. The referees could have acted faster, but Wisconsin and Stave had control of the situation at 18 seconds and they were too casual on the play. You can't count on the referees to do what you think they are "supposed" to do.
I don't blame the ASU player at all for falling on the ball. He obviously thought it was a fumble. Other wags of my finger:
(1) The refs for not setting the ball immediately after whistling it down, even if it was debatable whether Stave actually put a knee down. The ump needs to get the ASU player off the ball right away, otherwise whistle him for delaying the game.
(2) Wisconsin players for not immediately setting up their offense for the next spike. It's almost as if they all thought the clock had stopped. Collective brain fart on their part. They all needed to be on the line ASAP. Instead, they all had panic looks on their faces w/ 2 seconds left as they hustle to line up. Why didn't they line up at 10 seconds?!
(3) Wisconsin coaches. Seriously. Why even risk this situation at the end of the game w/ no timeouts. Take a shot at the end zone with the previous play or kick the FG. I vote for kick the damn FG and not risk a sack.
Wisconsin fans moaned about Bret's penchant for late game time mismanagement. They did get screwed by the refs, but the coaches and players both deserve some blame for this debacle, too.
He was standing over the ASU DT for a good 5 seconds just politely waiting for him to give him the fall. Absolutely should've been delay of game on ASU
Even if he did not take a knee isn't the play dead if you touch the ball to the ground while holding it?
Nope part of your body like a knee or elbow has to touch the ground to stop a play. Unless you're making a catch and the ball hits the ground while in your hands (Similar to what happened to Calvin Johnson last week)
Isn't there some degree of intent though, with an intentional kneel down? Stave "gave himself up". In the NFL, "taking a knee" shouldn't even make you down, since there's no contact. But there's special allowance for an intentional kneel.
Spiking should be intentional grounding - but there's a special rule for it. And consider fair catches, where any wave like motion is considered a signal. Doesn't taking a knee fall into the same category?
Denard did this vs MSU a few years back.
So much fail, so little time.
Refs may have fucked up, but what was stave doing not getting ready to spike the ball? As soon as he took the "knee" he should've lined up his offense to spike the ball immediately. Not sure why he stepped back in the first place, total amateur hour
sorry for double post
Breaking it down:
1. As far as I can tell Stave never took a knee. He rolled left and laid the ball down on the ground.
2. I don't know if laying the ball down like that is the same as a kneeldown but my guess is probably not. If you recall the famous fumblerooski play that's how the QB gave the ball to the OL -- it was treated like a fumble recovery HOWEVA the fumblerooski is illegal now so who knows?
3. The ASU players treated it (understandably) like a fumble, so you can't flag them for delay of game.
4. That does not excuse the refs from getting the call right. They should have huddled, figured out what happened, decided on a ruling, and applied it, resetting the clock if necessary. As badly as Stave screwed up (and I'm 98% sure this is ultimately all on Stave for not taking a knee or spiking the ball) for them to walk off the field the way they apparently did was inexcusable.
The refs emphatically whistled the play dead before ASU decided to jump on the ball. The ASU player knew damn well what he was doing, and it wasn't trying to recover a fumble.
Upon further review -- had the sound down and didn't hear the whistle. You're right. The whistle blew before the ASU player fell on the ball, so there wasn't a fumble recovery. The delay of game is a closer call -- was he trying to stall or was he just confused like everyone else? -- but probably because players are supposed to stop when the whistle goes. At the very least ASU shouldn't have been rewarded for it. My real main points still stands: The refs should have taken time to get the call right. And what they probably should have done was reset the clock to about 10-15 seconds and let Wisconsin spike the ball.
I can't understand how every 7th play is reviewed in college football (and every other play in Basketball) and yet, not only did the officials NOT review it, they didn't even huddle. They simply ran off the field amid mass confusion. Isn't that why you have booth reviews? What a disaster. Definite mistake by Stave but the officials need to do better than that
but it lasted like a tenth of a second, and he was partially hidden by his OL. I didn't see the knee until I went to fullscreen view mode.
is a picture in this thread that has been posted twice now that clearly shows his knee down. I don't why people keep on trying to say it wasn't when there is clear photograph evidence.
The whistle clearly sounded before the ASU player flopped on it. By rule, if the whistle sounds, you're down, and that can't be overturned IIRC (no "continuation rule"). So at about 15ish seconds, the officials had made the final decision that he was down right there. From there, it's simply a matter of they taking forever to spot the ball. Yes, the Wisconsin actions were odd and not advised, but if the officials had, you know, done their job, there would have been zero concern over time.
Had he been urging the ref to hike and spike situation would have been avoided. He did not realize clock was running until 2 seconds on clock.
Not to defend the officials but shouldn't the QB know that the clock does not stop when you take a knee? That was the first thing that jumped out at me. There was no urgency by the Wisconsin players to get to the line as soon as that knee down was taken.
he was complaining about to to official. To hurry up and get the ASU players off the ball so they could spike it. So basically he was urging the refs to spot it, they just wouldn't listen.
Also people keep saying they didn't realize the clock was running, of course they did, there is no reason they wouldn't. The issue and this is the point that people keep on missing, is that the offense can't actually line up over the ball until it is spotted, it wasn't spotted by the ref until there were only 2 or 3 seconds left.
Washington had a miraculous comeback against BYU he overturned a td because Locker didn't hand him the ball after scoring a td.
Eh, locker flung the ball straight up in the air, really high, and the ref interpreted that as celebration and gave the penalty.
That was just inexcusable. The QB clearly had taken a knee and Bielema's comment confirms he's just a dickhead.
I think the correct call would have been to call a penalty on the ASU player for laying on the ball, thus stopping the clock and giving Wiscy a field goal that would have been more like an extra point attempt.
You know, that Akron game sucked, a lot. But at least we aren't Wisconsin. And at least we won.
there would have to be 4 seconds left after the spike. isn't there a new rule this year that requires a 3 sec runoff of the clock following a spike??
still with 18 secs left there should have been plenty of time to snap, knee lineup snap and spike but hey that was a big play by that d-lineman
They got far too cute on the road, especially given the makeup of the officiating crew. It was idiotically risky to not have Stave spike the ball instead of taking that knee. And if you're going to take a knee, he should have retreated a few yards so that he wasn't hidden by his OL, and the knee needed to last longer than the split second he took. It's not surprising to me that the officials missed the knee.
Wisky put themselves into the position of relying on hostile and/or incompetent officials to make the right call in a confusing situation, and it cost them the chance to win the game.
He didn't even need to spike the ball, because the previous play ended out of bounds. The clock was already stopped for them, so they could have done whatever they wanted. They created a clock problem when there wasn't one.
That was just a disaster on all fronts. The officials certainly could have flagged the ASU guy for delay of game, but Wisconsin's got to take a look in the mirror here. Calling a running play of any kind with 18 seconds left and no timeouts is playing with fire. You should only do that if you can be absolutely certain your players know how to pull that off, and judging from the confusion that ensued, it didn't look like they did. If you're going to run what they did, your QB needs to fall down on the ground (to avoid any confusion about the play being live), hand the ball to the official (trying to spot the ball yourself only wastes time), and immediately get everyone lined up - don't chitchat with the refs while the clock is running.
If you're not confident your QB can handle all that, don't run a play inbounds. Throw one pass into the endzone or just kick the FG already.
It's like traveling to a third world country and assuming you can take risks thinking that the local officials aren't corrupt and/or incompetent
I watched a portion of the game earlier and I thought Wisky looked like they were going to win comfortably. Can't believe that ASU had gotten the lead.
With no time outs, I understand you can't take a knee or fall, because the clock would keep running. Is your kicker that bad he needs to have the ball centered? When the game is on the line, spike the damn ball and hope your kicker practices from all angles. Stave did something the refs probably have never seen before, and the way they handled it was basically by the book. It is not on Stave though, someone told him to center the ball.
to spot the ball in that situation is not handling it by the book. The book is that when time is running out refs are supposed to make an effort to spot the ball quickly, instead these refs were acting like it was the middle of the first quarter in their sense of urgency. Regardless of what you thought about Wisky's decision making, there is no way you argue that refs handled that sequence correctly or by the book.
Shit. Glad it wasn't Michigan, but I am still pissed.
That had to hurt the bagers after driving down the field with a ending like that.
If they are not careful, this can get in their heads and tank their whole season the way the Colorado Hail Mary tanked our season in '94. We were never right afrter that, and the players and coaches have admitted it.
take a knee - he set the ball on the ground which is a fumble and Arizona st. fell on it. The officials should have stopped the clock and awarded the ball to state 1st and 10.
You can't be serious.