@SWiltfong247 Steve Wiltfong
spoiler alert: i linked this
That was my first guess too. I thought the coaching staff said if your committed then no visits? Am I wrong?
Maybe he just wants to visit the Pacific Northwest...in November...
Not a member but picture in the article is of Pharoah Brown.
Booo... Why would he even go to Oregon as a TE, they hardly feature them in the way we probably will. Unless he wants to play DE, in which case I dont see how Michigan wouldnt be the perfect situation... I'll hold off judgement until we really know whats going on, though.
I understand where you're coming from with that, but take a look at the statline of the starting TEs for us and Oregon right now...
David Paulsen- 17 catches/233 yards/4 TDs
Kevin Koger- 17 catches/195 yards/ 3 TDs
I know, the TE will grow and grow in importance in the future, but for now, I think it's understandable if a HS kid doesn't see the big difference lol
Given Shane Morris is coming in two years, Brown should feel comfortable to be a part of the Offensive
Ace is more of an insider than almost everyone on this blog. Enjoy Bolivia
As opposed to you and all of your 8 points? And what kind of name is "BigRedWolverine" anyway? Are you one of those idiots who wears the garb of both teams during a game because you like both schools?
Nuke these jerks to La Paz
Go away. And nice ignorant tagline as well.
If so, I hope he knows what he's doing .. cause I'm sure Hoke's already working on his backup plan.
Maybe Hoke already got his backup.
If he does, Hoke will boot him. You watch.
I was really excited to see him play TE for us. We have a bunch of highly rated guys still on the board, that we are really going after. I think there is a good chance that we will have to turn away some dudes, because we run out of available spots in this recruiting class. If he really wants to play for Michigan, he is really taking a big chance going to visit Duckville.
With 5 or 6 4/5 stars lined up for 4 spots, a decommit would hardly be devistating. That having been said, decommits are never good, who is it? Visits to other schools pretty much mean decommits with this staff, as I understand it. The prospect can still favor Michigan, but we will reopen the spot for recruitment.
I'm 30 min from Eugene. Want me to find him and send him back to Ann Arbor?
yes..and i hope that "/s" stands for serious
Loading up my creeper van
Still not funny.
Not even a bit. Little kids being molested or raped will never be something to joke about.
Well, if South Park did it I guess everyone has to revise their position on the matter. Thanks for pointing that out.
Nope. Just pointed out that he probably was among the group that didn't like what I thought was a very entertaining episode.
SNL did a nice job with The Devil on Weekend Update, too.
I am not someone who thinks for a second that what happend at penn state is funny at all, and i never and will never make a joke about the victims..but i don't need to defend my moral standards to a couple of high horse internet bloggers.
If only because he was just told that he could play TE, which has always appeared to be his position of choice.
If you'll remember, Oregon offerred Brown shortly after he committed to Michigan, as a TE. There may have been some sort of disconnect between Brown and the coaching staff, or perhaps the coaching staff wasn't as enthusiastic about him as a TE as he was. I'm not jumping to conclusions yet, but the coaches did tell TRich that if he took visits, they wouldn't consider him committed.
This is interesting. I wonder how hoke will approach this. He has to do something. Trich wanted to take visits and mags too.
Hoke will approach it the same way he did with TRich...tell him if he visits, he is not considered committed, and there may not be a spot when he gets back.
I actually have mixed feelings on that rule, but it is Hoke's rule, and Hoke is not one to mess around.
Mixed feelings? I'm not trying to be critical or attack you, but what do you mean? I've always found the concept of 'committed but looking' absurd. What do you think about it?
If you have early signing, like in bball, then you are really committed.
In football, whether looking or taking visits or not...it is still a verbal. Heck, think of the players we have lost and gained without having this rule. This rule doesn't really stop anything. It does make it clear what Hoke thinks about it though. Even with this rule...do you really think no one will defect at the last minute?
I think Sam w said this that he didn't believe we would have any decommits.
expect the unexpected
At least one player has decommitted in every class from 2007-2011.
that doesnt completely surprise me. am i disappointed in his visit, yes. do i consider him committed. no. i understand the kid, him being 17 and so. as i said before it would interesting to see what hoke does. if he lets one person go on a visit what about the others, and if pharoah went without saying anything, oh well.
I can understand where you're coming from, but I don't think thats the point. There could be a variety of reasons why a kid defects at the last second, but most of the time, it's because their feelings will change, but likely had been 100 percent committed up to that point.
With a kid who's 'committed but visiting', it's more like a kid isn't sure where he wants to go, but wants to use the coach's eagerness to lock up a top prospect to form a comfortable safety net. It's been my opinion that nothing good can really come of 'visiting for shits and giggles' with your buddies, anyway. If you don't take it seriously, then the other coaching staff will have wasted time they could have spent on prospects they're more likely to land, and money they could have spent on other recruits. If they do, then the commitment wavering begins.
IMO, these kids need a thorough lesson on 'commitment'. If you're not sure where you want to go, don't commit anywhere. This is obviously a different case when someone thinks they know where they want to go but changes their mind, but I think you get my point
Of course it's still a verbal, just like Hoke saying "I won't give your spot away to another kid" is just a verbal. My point is, if you aren't upholding your end of the verbal bargain, Hoke shouldn't either.
A verbal is not binding, so a player can reopen his recruitment at any time. As soon as he does that, though, his spot can be filled. You can't make reservations at two restaurants in this game.
Yes it goes both ways, how does a player feel when Coach is talking to other same position players.
It depends. If a coach tells a kid that they're all done with his position and then keeps talking to other prospects at the same position, then a committed player has the right to be upset. But that rarely happens, and most players commit with the understanding that they'll have competition from the same class...
anyone consider Brionte Dunn "committed" to Ohio?
I LOVE that rule. Hoke's laying down the law. Personally, I dont think it's harsh .. and it's not unprofessional. It's just the way it is.
I agree with it but see trich point. Trich just wanted to get wine and dined. Something he will never do again until he gets to the league. Bit I understand hoke saving him a spot and not wanting to be reneged upon. I think Pharoah didn't know hoke's rule. He seemed happy
I think Pharoah didn't know hoke's rule
Sam Webb mentioned earlier this year that the coaching staff makes it a point before anyone tries to commit that visits mean their spot is in jeopardy. There might have been a miscommunication (i.e. Brown asking Hoke, him not giving a clear answer or Brown just not understanding what he means), but I'm sure he knows the 'rule'.
I understand. I guess brown doesn't have a spot anymore.
That's not what I mean, the coaching staff still might not have caught wind of this. I'm saying there could have been some sort of communication breakdown between the two parties that needs sorting out. I'm still considering him committed until I hear otherwise.
It seems odd that it is just getting reported now so close to the actual game. Is there a chance that he is already on campus and that is how the writer knew that he was visiting?
It seems like this was kept under wraps or it was a communication break down like you said.
I don't have access to 247sports, but I'd guess Brown is, at the very least, on his way there. Most official visits start friday evening, where prospects and their parents meet with the coaches, and then the prospects go out on the town with their student hosts. Sometimes this doesn't happen if the prospect has to play a football game first, but I believe Brown's HS career is over.
Guy who posted on Scout's free board said he knew Pharoah was in San Fran today. Don't know how he knows, don't want to know how, and don't know if it's true but it's a weird thing to say if he's just making it up. Would lend to the idea though that he would be on his way to Oregon/there already.
I agree with the rule 100%. If a kid is entertaining offers from other programs, whether it is just to wined and dined, to see the Pacific North, or whatever, they are still opening themselves up to be swayed and cannot be considered "committed". If I am happy within a relationship, I am not out pursuing a "better" relationship. Sure, there might be that someone that could possibly be a better fit, but if I'm committed and have my focus and energy on making my happy relationship even better, then I sure wouldn't be entertaining other offers.
if you are a Michigan man then why are you looking? Its a fair rule, if its for the free trip then thats more confusing becuase Eugene is bla. Hope he stays Blue!
Opens a spot so we can finish with 2 WRs, RB, DB/S, OL rather than having 3 TEs?
ann arbor > eugene - im not worried.
... Like a 6 star hotel...
Tell that to Jake Fisher.
what do you think your fiancee would say if you told her "I'm still committed to you but I want to take this other chick out because she's smoking hot."
And make no mistake, that's what's happening (assuming the tweet is accurate). Brown ain't visiting an ugly girl like Indiana or Washington State—he's visiting the sexy #4 program in the country that still has an outside chance of playing for the NC.
I have no problem if Hoke says, in effect, "Fine. Next."
I used the same analogy (ish) a few months ago! You know what they say about great minds.
threesome? Ok maybe not responsive to your post.
Your fiance scenario is not the same. Before we judge this 18 yo kid, trying to make the best choice while surrounded by adults pressuring him, remember we dont know everything. Maybe Hoke is cooling on him. Maybe Kelly is paying someone to lie to him and Brown is falling for it. It's possible Hoke mislead Brown, or Brown misunderstood Hoke. Maybe Oregon is the best place for him. Does he have extended family there? None of us know these things. Hope for the best either way.
mspeedkills? Let's do that
What the hell did he do now.
Oh, so that's the reason this video was in the upper-left of my screen.
The rule is the rule, and my opinion doesn't matter...and I always will support Hoke.
As for the rule, TRich didn't apparently understand the rule either, and then backed down. We will have to see with Brown...my guess is that he will do the same. If he doesn't...well, then he likely was a soft commit anyway.
Trich backed down but pharaoh is in oregon already or on the way
I'm ok if he decommitted, AJ Williams can stay at TE and they can go after Garnett! Garnett and Magnuson have been bantering on twitter about their Michigan visit and playing together!
If ends up coming to that, then I want Garnett in this class too.
Does anyone really think Williams remains a TE? Dude weighs like 290! How many 290 lb tight end do we know? Plus, hes probably only going to get bigger after being in a college strength and conditioning program. My guess is that we'd roll with Funchess and look elsewhere with the spot and look for 2 TEs next year.
This makes very little sense that he'd go to Oregon, of all places, as a tight end. Aren't tight ends featured more in pro-style offenses than spread offenses?
But, I feel like there should be repercussions for someone who commits to a university, and the decommits and goes elsewhere. At the very least they should lose a year of eligibilty, and lose the right to redshirt. So, basically the first time they are allowed to play they are sophomores, and get only 3 years eligibility. Unless, there are unforeseen circumstances like an NCAA investigation or a coaching change. This would make kids think twice before committing, and teams wouldn't get screwed over late in the game.
It's only a matter of time before some jackass coach gets 5 or 6 solid commits ... conjures a plan for them to commit to their arch rival, have them decommit on signing day and sign with the original team they intended to go to ... totally fucking the other team on signing day,
Both of your scenarios will never happen.
If he ends up decommitting at least we still have time to find someone to take his place. We still have couple of months before signing day and we are still in good positions with lots of great recruits.
At the very least they should lose a year of eligibilty, and lose the right to redshirt
I think a lot of people would be very, very strongly opposed to this. As I mentioned above, it's one thing if the kid is just taking advantage of the safety net that committing provides, it's another when a kid is presented with new information or just has their feelings towards a university change. How would you feel if the NCAA told players that are currently committed to PSU that they're not allowed to look elsewhere, regardless of their feelings towards the university? Besides, the verbal commitment is entirely too much of a slippery slope for people to consider this.
I'm leaving the other part of your statement alone, but only because I find it incredibly ludicrous.
..that is all..it doesn't count until they sign. It is what it is.. Remember Kalis?
Decommitting from Ohio State was a noble act in support of truth, justice, and the Michigan way. Decommitting from Michigan would be a vile act of betrayal worthy of the loss of all eligibility. That is maize-n-blue objectivity!
I don't think you know what a Commit is. To be fair this Commitment way has been taken out of context due to the fact that LOI's can only be signed once a year. A commitment is simply when a kid says, "yeah I'm going to go there.". It's just a verbal declaration of where they are going. The system of recruiting has made commitments out to be more than what yet are. It's just a verbal pledge by a kid, who may or may not change his mind.
I strongly disagree with most types of repercussion to a verbal commit changing. As a fmr. BIG athlete I can tell you that coaches lie their absolute faces off to you and your family during recruiting. It is very difficult to discern from official visits, in home visits, and phone calls what the truth is. I was promised trips to Hawaii, new stadium renovations, and special uni # by just about everyone. Then there was the constant assurance of immediate playing time and depth chart domination with highly rated prospects at every complimentary position. Absolutely none of that was true. I cant blame a kid for committing, learning more about the real circumstances, and changing his mind. Remember, once he signs, transferring to his 2nd choice is nearly impossible so he better get it right.
But if you were promised those things, it's your fault. You were promised those things because you indicated that was what you wanted when you knew better than to believe any of that was possible. Ask somebody to tell you lies and they'll tell you lies. Ask them for the truth. If they still lie, then it's a problem.
We're talking about kids who commit when they're 16/17 years old. As a teacher, this thread is kind of depressing me.
"because you indicated that was what you wanted when you knew better than to believe any of that was possible?"
No. That is not how it worked for me at all.
It is not my fault that coaches have ready made recruiting pitches with those promises built in. This is not consultative selling where they are trying to discover my needs and then address them. This is canned material they start off with before they even get to know you. Some things like a trip to Hawaii for me and my family I couldn't care less about. I wasn't interested in that at all and there is no way I could have given any indication that I was. Some things, like standing on the depth chart, facilities, and blue chip recruits at all complimentary positions, are things that every recruit wants to some extent. If I was completely against playing time, in better facilities, with good talent, than what am I even doing being recruited?
Here is a totally hypothetical example of why it is not the recruit's fault he has to get a lot of BS lies:
Lets pretend you are an all-world defensive lineman who wants a solid degree and the best chance to one day play in the NFL. You find the Florida Gators coached by Urban Meyer with Greg Mattison as his assistant and your potential future position coach. You recognize that FL has a solid degree program in what you want to study, you like the idea of playing in the SEC, and you know that Greg Mattison will be the best all around coach you can ask for to maximize your potential. On your official visit you will still spend considerable time, several hours, with just Urban Meyer and not anyone else in Urb's office. What are the chances that Urban keeps his mouth shut and doesnt say anything off the wall untrue in an effort to get your signature on an LOI right away? What are the chances that you ask Urban Meyer for the real truth after he is done doing his canned presentation that he gives every single recruit no matter what, and he drops the act and gives you the straight truth? Do you think Urban Meyer is even realistic enough with himself to even know the truth to say it?
Again that is totally hypothetical and did not happen to you or me. There are certainly coaches out there who are very truthful and honest and don't have canned presentations full of lies and in a perfect world you only ever look at those coaches. But the example above might show that playing for Greg Mattison while attending FL is worth it even if you have to endure the constant BS of Urban Meyer during the recruiting process.
I know this post is from years ago and I'm not even sure if anyone will ever see this comment but I didn't see Blazefire's comment until now.
Were you ever 17 years old?
And the Machiavelli coaching school only gets you so far.
Now what Clarett did on his official to us, maybe something there in that kind of circumstance. Even then I don't think it is in any program's best interest to go after and punish 17 year-olds.
If indeed it happens with Brown, and that is Hoke's law, then thank you very much and who's next on the list.
I'm starting to dislike Oregon.
i think it's interesting, that chip kelly has the same rule. he hates when commits visit elsewhere and pulls their scollie. i think i heard that on espn during their recruting day coverage. not sure.
We have no problem with kids that are committed elsewhere visiting us. Brionte Dunn is visiting Michigan this weekend.
Starting? Oregon is to blame for unleashing the pox on college football that is hideous uniforms.
You know, it's funny because I really don't mind Oregon's uniforms, but a lot of the jerseys that are copying off them are absolutely terrible (cough Maryland)
the Aaron Hernandez effect will start to cross kids minds a lot in the next few years. New England is a spread team that will line up their TE's to create mismatches.
I wouldn't be surprised if Chip Kelly is selling the same thing to Brown right now.
New England isn't a spread team. It's just a team that passes a lot. They run a ton of double TE.
I would have to say that New England is about as close to a spread team as you will find in the NFL...
Not so fast my friend. Denver Broncos but I get your point.
Discussing how the Pats are going away from spread formations to use the tight end.
you must be missing the point to my post.
Well shoot. Urban Meyer to Ohio State probably and Pharaoh Brown visiting Oregon. Not the best couple of Michigan news days.
...and when has Meyer beaten us?
Those who stay will be champions. Those who associate with Chip Kelly should be careful given prior accusations of shadiness.
No need to worry here, either way. Hoke Über Alles!
That stinks, but we're still pullng in 2 TEs this class. I don't think I can really blame Brown. He's likely not beating out Funchess and I'm not sure how he'd fair against AJ Williams. Plus Ricardo Miller is a year in front. If Brown wants heavy playing time as a TE we might not be the best place.
This opens us for another OL or perhaps a DE. Noah Spence is supposedly cooling on PSU due to their scandal so I'm sure he'd be a target.
I thought Williams was moving to the o-line.
I, personally, am of the belief that we need Williams as a blocking TE. He's got the athleticism, and we need the depth
At least, for his freshman year. Then, perhaps, we can move him to O-Line.
I wonder if Ron Thompson would still be interested...
wow, someone got butt hurt over that comment... i know, i know, flame bait.
at this point it does matter for two reasons, signing day is still a couple months away and anything can happen between now and then. but hopefully it won't matter on signing day.
I don't think there's any reason to believe Brown couldn't beat out Funchess and/or Williams. Brown is 6'7" and 220-ish pounds, while Funchess is just barely over 200 . . . and there's a chance that Williams moves to the offensive line. Meanwhile, Brandon Moore and Ricardo Miller haven't done jack squat.
The position is there for the taking.
Hokes rule is a good one
Could you imagine courting a woman, giving her an engagement ring and she accepts. Then you find out she wants to date a few more guys before the wedding but promises she'll be faithful.
Either you are committed or you aren't.
Stop with the marriage/dating analogies. Brown knows the rule, and is acting anyway. I am sure there are reasons for this. You or I may not like them but we are not Brown.
This is actually more like business than dating...where you can be committed, but not really, and that's just how it is...for better or worse as they say
Williams is almost certain not going to be a TE, he is going to the OL.
We MAY move him to the O line eventually, but we have a number of really great O-Linemen coming in in this class and Williams has the athleticism to be a hulking, blocking TE. Putting him at tackle wastes some of that agility.
He (Williams) has been bulking up, and this year is playing exclusively at OL for his High school. I seriously doubt that Hoke and Co. would have promoted that, if they didn't plan on moving him. Additionally, Brown's move to TE makes me think that they wanted two TE in the class...and WIllams was already not considered a TE. We will see, but I am pretty confident that Williams doesn't end up at TE.
The reason why Wiliams picked Michigan was because the coaches were going to give him the opportunity to come play TE.
Borges obviously wants a jumbo TE that can block and he fits that role right away. To say that he will come in and play OL right away is just incorrect. The coaches will give him a shot and I expect to see the field pretty early in his carrear.
But is a jumbo TE really a TE? We can call it whatever, but he's not going to be running fly patterns. If the line was over/under 1 career catch for Williams, I'd bet the under...but not because of a lack of seeing the field.
Lets wait and see what comes of this.
It might be nothing. As of right now, I'm not worried.
We will have none of this "rational thought" here! How dare you!
I'm not particularly worried about Brown testing the waters and losing his spot.
He is gonna take a redshirt and need mountains of work to develop into a tight end, and while I'm sure he will make a dynamite receiving tight end whereever he ends up, what seems to be an insistence on playing offense rather than defense makes me question whether he will put in the grunt work in the trenches to become the sort of tight end that defenses simply can't match up with.
This coaching staff can sell the hell out of this school, and there is no shortage of talent interested in a spot.
So here's hoping this coaching staff can get a couple more wins this season, shows everyone that this team is returning to a strong winning tradition, and finds a few more players that want to be a part of a team, and not just a tight end at a prominent program.
I hope Pharaoh sticks around and puts in the sort of work that will make him a standout contributor. If not, oh well, best of luck to the kid.
Until his twitter page says something other then "MICHIGAN BOUND FOLLOW ME" I wouldn't worry.