Coach Rod - "All In" or "until next year"
Most on this blog seem insistent that there are two camps. Those Michigan fans and followers that are "Rich Rod supporters" and those that are "Rich Rod detractors." Certain threads yesterday regarding Rodriguez's future at Michigan and the difficult road ahead of him alerted me that even within those two camps, there are various different schools of thought as to what it means to "support" Rodriguez and what he has accomplished thus far and what he must to remain the head coach. Within each school of thought, there are inherent conflicts with regard to how long Rodriguez should be afforded, why he should be afforded that time, and what he must do for the time spent to be a success.
If you consider yourself a Rich Rod supporter, but also follow any statements of support with "he has until next year to seriously compete for the BCS etc. or he is gone," ask yourself, is such a stance really the equivalent of "support." Is it at all coherent to believe that firing him this year is this proposterous idea for only the lunatic fringe, but firing him at the end of that pivotal third year is completely reasonable and level headed.
Next years team is essentially going to be this years team without B. Graham, B. Minor and possibly D. Warren. Sure some of Michigan's young talent will mature a little and some of last years Red Shirts will come off. There may even be some contributions from talented true freshman to supplement things.
However, any fantasies of next year being THE year that Michigan bursts on the national scene and competes for a national championship should by now be displaced with an understanding of the place this team is coming from, this teams limitations and what true progress for this team next year will be, and it is not a national championship. Hell, a state championship would be nice.
I, personally, was a firm RR detractor for much of the last two seasons. Throughout this season, however, I have had certain realizations and observations, and these have resulted in what is now unadulterated support of Rodriguez. Support in the sense that I won't mention firing him again. I don't want him fired and will oppose any suggestions that he should be. I support Rodriguez, not Rodriguez if Michigan miraculously wins eleven games next year and is the feel good story of the year, but Rodriguez himself. I will see a sub-par 2010 as another opportunity for him, my team's coach, to prove everybody wrong in 2011. Rich Rod is now part of the Michigan team that I support and losing him would be like one of my favorite players transfering, it would be a hurdle in my fandum, not an "oh well, lets just go get Harbaugh." It would hurt.
If you support "keeping Rich Rod" through the end of next year and believe that is support, ask yourself, what can next season bring that will convince you that he is your coach, that you support him. 6 wins and a bowl win? 7 wins and a bowl loss? eleven wins and a BCS game? With a reasonable expectation of what is possible next year, if you advocate dismissing Rodriguez based on performance or lack thereof NEXT year, are you not essentially guaranteed to have that position strenthened next year?
If so, why support "keeping" him for one more year. Will the chaos that will ensue upon his firing be any less after next year? Will the "program be set back" any less if he gets one year deeper and then Michigan cuts ties? If you want Rodriguez back for next year, but only for next year "if, unless, and until," for what purpose do you advocate for his return at all?
Do you support Rich Rodriguez, or do you think Rodriguez "should get one more year," with the understanding that the two positions are not one in the same.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:04 AM ^
Coach Rodriguez should be able to see his first true recruiting class through until their senior season. So, 2012? That does not mean that he is "off the hook" until that time. There must be continual progression, and that doesn't always take the form of wins vs. losses. For instance, although we only won 2 more games this year vs. last (and won 1 less big 10 game, in fact), we were competitive in almost every game we played and had a CHANCE at a much better record. This was not the case last year. Conclusion: improvement.
I fully support coach Rodriguez, and I can't wait to see what this team looks like in the future. However, I agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't expect an exponential increase in wins/productivity next year. 7-5 is what I am expecting, honestly.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:54 AM ^
think you were asking RR directly if he's in.
Anyhooz, he has my support until he demonstrates he can't get this the program competiting consistently at the level where most of think it should be competing (and doing it the right way). I don't know what timeline isexactly, but I would suspect we'd have a pretty good idea in year 4 or 5 when he has his players and they've been in the system for a while. If he hasn't demonstrated it by then, any questioning of his performance in handling the program is valid.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:11 AM ^
We sat we support him and some of us say he has to win like 8 games or hes gone we mean that the school will fire him likely. It's not that we don't support him but the alumni will do something drastic and we have no control over that.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:25 AM ^
as far as the school goes. If Michigan was going to fire Rodriguez based on performance or lack thereof by Michigan standards, would he not be gone already? With the understanding that next year is not going to result in any bright line "success" or "failure," but in even a more ambigous situation than the present, of what value is there in bringing Rodriguez back next year when any performance based termination would most distinguishably be now and not after a season that will make the decision that much more difficult and unclear. I don't buy that he is coming back contingent on a certain number of wins or amount of success, barring some 3-9 debacle, I think a third year following five straight losses to end this season(and plenty of "extra-curricular acts and ommissions), means this is our coach and he will be for quite a while. The powers that be have never publicly accepted terminating RR as a serious option, any response to questions regarding his job security are answered only after chuckles and are not contingent, but full throttle support, even amidst what is generally recognized as drastic underperformance.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:27 PM ^
It is a little ridiculous how many times I've watched this
November 26th, 2009 at 10:29 AM ^
yeah i keep coming back to this picture. i cant get away from it
November 25th, 2009 at 8:30 AM ^
adorable and oddly disturbing at the same time. Consider the title changed.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:47 AM ^
we need to stop identifying as "Rich Rod supporters/haters" and start being Michigan fans again. You should want the program to succeed, no matter who is the coach. Enough of this politics bullshit; let's do our best to support our team instead of mire oureselves in the petty bickering. The next time somebody asks you "do you support Rich Rod?" you should ask back "is he the coach of Michigan?". When they say yes, say "then absolutely".
November 25th, 2009 at 10:02 AM ^
That is exactly what I was thinking! Thank you for beating me to it.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:56 AM ^
I believe that the intention of my post is to do just that, and to identify how illogical the division has become. Perhaps by actually analyzing and disecting the divsion it can then be eliminated.
November 25th, 2009 at 9:01 AM ^
if our fan base/alumni continue to be split on the coach and the way the program is run we will become ND and be looking for a new coach every 4 years.
Look everyone has their right to be mad, upset whatever I am but look at the bigger picture and what Rich Rod has had to work with here.
I like winning we all do but the question we all need to ask ourselves is being bad for 2 years worth winning the Big 10 again? Winning a BCS game ? Winning a national title?
If your answer is yes good because the old Michigan was cracking from the inside and falling apart before Rich got here, App st was the proof that this program had fallen apart.
Some people have said Michigan wasn't broken but we couldn't compete outside the Big 10 besides the Florida game and OSU had our number before Rich. PSU passed us the Illini passed us and little bro is getting closer.
When I see teams like TCU, Boise st, and Utah passing us(before Rich and now) it shows we have a lot of worked to do if they can do it with the so called 2 star guys compared to our 4 star guys we needed the kick in the pants to get us back to the top.
November 25th, 2009 at 9:55 AM ^
The question no one is asking is "Did we have to be this bad for 2 years to win the Big 10/do that other stuff again?" And, really, it's not like we were that far removed from BCS games and contending for National Championships. Are we forgetting 2006 and the 3 Rose Bowls we went to in 4 years?
I'm not doubting RR's abilities as a coach, but I really don't think 8 wins in two years was the only way we could have gotten through this transition.
November 25th, 2009 at 9:11 AM ^
UM is already on the national scene, even if they play badly. That's why RR gets hammered for Justin Feagin while Saint Dantonio gets his ring kissed for finally dismissing two players after giving them "second chances." UM is held to a higher standard because they are a higher-level program.
As for supporting RR, I haven't seen too many posters here saying they expect to compete for any championships next year. Most seem to be in the 8-4 range. As for the team being "essentially this yera's team without Warren, Minor, and Graham," that is a bit inaccurate. The team really never had Minor this year because of injuries. Warren may be back and may not. Graham will obviously be gone, but that's one out of three that agree with your statement.
The team will look much better next year. OSU was a loss, but the defense finally "got it" against them, and should improve markedly next year. There are plenty of redshirts and a few freshmen who will play, and the growth you cited should not be underrated.
If the team merely improves enough to beat MSU, Purdue, and Illinois, that makes it an eight-win season. After the performance against OSU, I think the defense has improved enough to beat all three teams right now.
Keeping GERG would be huge, because it would mean that the team wouldn't have to learn a fourth defense in four years.
I expect 8-4 and see the possibility of 9-3 or even 10-2, but I support RR now no matter what. I still don't think he can be fully judged until his fourth or even fifth year because of the massive rebuilding job he was given.
I almost think we would have been better off with one more year of Carr so that he could suffer the consequences of his own failure to maintain an appropriate level of recruiting. That way, Carr would have been the one who suffered the shitstorm, and the new coach would have been treated a lot better than RR has.
Most of all, more people would have understood that the "old school" methods from Bo and his progenies don't work in this era of football. They would have given a new coach a lot more slack and a lot less bullshit.
November 25th, 2009 at 9:36 AM ^
2 0 1 0 SCHEDULE
Date Opponent
Sept. 4 CONNECTICUT Win
Sept. 11 at Notre Dame ???
Sept. 18 MASSACHUSETTS Win
Sept. 25 BOWLING GREEN Win
Oct. 2 at Indiana* Win
Oct. 9 MICHIGAN STATE* Win
Oct. 16 IOWA* (HC) Win
Oct. 30 at Penn State* ???
Nov. 6 ILLINOIS* Win
Nov. 13 at Purdue* ???
Nov. 20 WISCONSIN* ???
Nov. 27 at Ohio State* ???
Based on our performance this year, our opponents performance this year, and who we bring back and they bring back, are these the 7 wins you guys see??? Maybe 8 wins means we take Purdue???
Meanwhile, question really is what new AD and Presiint of University think, as alumni have complained about many a coach at Michigan historically that has managed to be here for many years (Amaker's 6 years comes to mind instantly).
November 25th, 2009 at 10:07 AM ^
I think you can include ND in the W column. They've reached their peak this year even if JC and CW do come back, while UM (in retrospect) was a long way away from its peak.
November 25th, 2009 at 10:43 AM ^
I think Purdue is a much more sure win than Michigan State.
November 25th, 2009 at 9:38 AM ^
Many people being cautious are not predicating their support for RR beyond next year on "bursting onto the national scene" and competing for an NC. They want clear signs of progress, a better record, a bowl game, fewer mental breakdowns, and an elevation of play from the current players. Nothing about that list, in year three, is unrealistic. Support for a coach is not nor should it be unqualified, Brian has even stated that given a poor year next year, RR might be gone and he would have a hard time arguing against it. If that is your stance, you are not a worse Michigan fan than you.
November 25th, 2009 at 9:57 AM ^
say next year there are still mental breakdowns, some signs of improvement, some signs of stagnation. Michigan wins one they should lose and loses one they should win. Gardner, Robinson and Christian are red-shirted and Tate is up and down. They lose to Michigan State at home (three in a row), but clip Penn State on the road. Match up against Georgia Tech in the Champs Sports bowl and lose a close one. 7-6 on the year. Fire him? What will that do to recruits who have committed, to the three players named above coming off of red-shirt years. When does the "or else" mentaility end? I am not giving Rich Rod a free ride, I just think that the or-else should end right now for a little while.
November 25th, 2009 at 10:14 AM ^
This one. Important. I like the part where the guy changes his mind and is now confident he is correct. Studies have shown this happens every single time it does not happen, or where no question exists in the first place. I know, it blows my mind, too. What ya gonna do? Physics!
Well worth a point.
November 25th, 2009 at 12:33 PM ^
just asking.
November 25th, 2009 at 10:39 AM ^
than any individual, even the demigod Rich Rodriguez.
I was under the, perhaps mistaken, impression, that the reason BM and MSC chose him, notwithstanding the contract issues, was dissatisfaction with not having been in the BCS hunt every year. Putting aside the merits of that objective, one might infer from RR's statements that he is "building a program," that he first had to tear down the old one. 2008 was a teardown year, and 2009 is year one of the rebuilding, which includes game experience for young players. Unfortunately, one cost of that is a bad senior year for those few seniors in the class of 2009-2010.
If Rodriguez is, as the despised Michael Rosenberg wrote when he was first hired, a "great coach," things should improve quickly and drastically. When that happens, the issue of how long to keep him may change to "how long can we keep him?" That is the best situation, and I hope it comes to pass.
If things do not improve quickly and drastically, the tougher question is how long to wait. It becomes a choice of being perceived as fickle or bull-headed, neither of which will help in recruiting a replacement, much less the effect on recruiting athletes.
I didn't like the choice when I first heard of it, if only for the reason that I thought the contract issues argued against it. But once the choice was made, I accepted it and wished him well, because I want Michigan to succeed, for the sake of the kids who work so hard as part of the team; for the sake of the band members who work so hard at their art, so their experience is even happier; for the sake of the students, to make their years in Ann Arbor more enjoyable. Not for me; I'm old, and I've had more years of enjoyment from Michigan football than anyone has a right to expect. I saw the magical 1997 season, and I hope a new generation of Michigan men and women soon gets to see one like it.
Last, if RR is going to win a NC, he's got to be able to get there first. It is demonstrably true that SEC and Big 12 and Pac 12 teams can beat any one Big 10 team in a bowl game. It is more questionable whether they can beat eight of them in ten Saturdays in Great Lakes region weather, and Michigan must do so even to get a chance to play in the BCS championship game.
November 25th, 2009 at 11:40 AM ^
The further removed we are from the last game the more confident we as fans get about the future success of our football program. The questions that I have relate to improvement. I remember the excitement and confidence we enjoyed after starting 4-0. Tate was the best QB in The Big Ten and we were getting ready to play "little brother".
From that point forward we went 1-7. We didn't win another Big Ten game and finished last in the conference. By the end of the season freshmen become sophmores and teams are suppose to improve. This didn't happen at Michigan and questions abound. Defensively we are weak and we aren't going to suddenly become good next year.
The measuring stick is improvement and I'm very concerned with the lack of progress and lack of improvement. The Big Ten is a defensive conference and I'm just not impressed with the direction we are going on the defensive side of the ball.
Having said that, RR deserves a chance to turn things around and that means at least two more seasons. At that point we should have a much better body of work to evaluate and determine the improvement and direction of the football program.
November 25th, 2009 at 1:51 PM ^
I'll preface this by saying that it doesn't matter at all what we think on the internet. If you're just asking for opinions, I'll give you mine....
I think that it's a no-brainer for RR to come back next year. Then, I believe that he should be evaluated based on team performance. It shouldn't be a public spectacle like it is now but his new boss will need to review the situation.
Personally, I think that it will hard for him to survive a 5-7 season. 6-6 or 7-5 will be a gray area. 8-4 (or better) and he certainly stays.
Realistically, almost any Michigan coach should be expected to go 7-5. 3-1 OOC (loss to ND) and 4-4 in the Big Ten. 1-7 in the Big Ten this year is pretty hard to take. Even with a freshman QB.
I'll take it step further and say that RR is largely responsible for this current situation. If he had better records up to this point, he wouldn't be under such scrutiny. 3-9 in 2008 was historically bad. He needed to win a couple more of those games. Utah, Toledo, Purdue and Northwestern were all winnable games that got away. Wisconsin is the only game that Michigan should have lost that they won. A $2.5M coach can't go 1-4 in close games.
2009 was similar. Michigan might have stolen one against ND (debatable) but came up on the short end against MSU, Purdue and Illinois.....all very winnable games. I won't even count Iowa because they were pretty clearly the better team and Michigan made it close (to RR's credit). RR coached teams need to be doing to other teams what Illinois did to Michigan this year.
My theory is that if RR would have gone 5-7 and 6-6 in the past two years (certainly not out of the realm of possibility), none of this conversation would be taking place now. He didn't and so he has to live with the speculation in the media. He's a big boy making a lot of money. He can deal with it. His future lies in his own hands.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:02 PM ^
Hope that most Michigan fans support Rich Rodriguez, his staff, and the players become a winning team that can compete for championships in the (relatively) near future. Support to me means that fans continue to show up for games with a positive attitude from start to finish and don't boo. Support does not mean that the AD should not establish performance metrics for Coach Rod to achieve. I'm sure he and Bill Martin will meet soon if they haven't already to review progress this season. It probably won't be an enjoyable conversation for either of them because even if you are a cynic you can't believe that RR envisioned missing a bowl game again this year (the guy is just too competitive). Personally I'd like to see the new AD appointed asap so he can come up to speed and work with Rodriguez to establish performance criterion for the coming year. While many of us only focus on wins and losses Coach Rodriguez is evaluated on much more. Just like any employee in a large organization if Coach Rod doesn't meet his performance metrics he will be held accountable and provided an opportunity to rectify the situation in a reasonable period of time (unless it is a zero tolerance issue like a major violation). We can all have faith that Michigan's administration is "supporting" RR but also challenging him to not only achieve but exceed the goals that have been established for him. As fans let's stay "All In" and cheer for his hard work to play off.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:34 PM ^
You can "support" Rich Rod and still expect results next year. He's returning a whole bunch of guys. Your boss may support you right now, but if you don't do your job I don't think that support would last. I mean, at some point we will have to start winning Big Ten games, and if we have only one Big Ten win next year, I can't really say that I would keep him. Bare cupboard, "system," and attrition can only rationalize losing for so long, 3 years is my cut off.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:37 PM ^
If we have another shit season in 2010, we will be told the following:
"Any fantasies of next year being THE year that Michigan bursts on the national scene and competes for a national championship should by now be displaced with an understanding of the place this team is coming from, this teams limitations and what true progress for this team next year will be, and it is not a national championship. Hell, a state championship would be nice.
I, personally, was a firm RR detractor for much of the last two seasons. Throughout this season, however, I have had certain realizations and observations, and these have resulted in what is now unadulterated support of Rodriguez. Support in the sense that I won't mention firing him again. I don't want him fired and will oppose any suggestions that he should be. I support Rodriguez, not Rodriguez if Michigan miraculously wins eleven games next year and is the feel good story of the year, but Rodriguez himself. I will see a sub-par 2011 as another opportunity for him, my team's coach, to prove everybody wrong in 2012. Rich Rod is now part of the Michigan team that I support and losing him would be like one of my favorite players transfering, it would be a hurdle in my fandum, not an "oh well, lets just go get Harbaugh." It would hurt.
If you support "keeping Rich Rod" through the end of next year and believe that is support, ask yourself, what can next season bring that will convince you that he is your coach, that you support him. 6 wins and a bowl win? 7 wins and a bowl loss? eleven wins and a BCS game? With a reasonable expectation of what is possible next year, if you advocate dismissing Rodriguez based on performance or lack thereof NEXT year, are you not essentially guaranteed to have that position strenthened next year?
If so, why support "keeping" him for one more year. Will the chaos that will ensue upon his firing be any less after next year? Will the "program be set back" any less if he gets one year deeper and then Michigan cuts ties? If you want Rodriguez back for next year, but only for next year "if, unless, and until," for what purpose do you advocate for his return at all?"
In fact, substituting in the appropriate years, this same story can be told after every shit season. So RR should be our coach until the end of time!!
November 25th, 2009 at 5:48 PM ^
So I think that everybody should stop having the conversation. Michigan has its coach and it is Rich Rodriguez. Go Blue.