Coach K Speaks up Re: Fab Five Documentary
ESPN just released an article based on Coach K's comments to a radio show this morning. Link. Quotes:
Obviously, that was a poor choice of words and very insulting to everyone here at Duke but especially, not just our African-American players, but any African-American students. When you judge within a race, you start judging, like you put categories as to who you are. I think that's just the wrong thing to do.
We were very successful against them and, to be quite frank with you, we recruited Chris Webber. I didn't recruit Jalen Rose because we had Grant Hill and I'm happy with that. We didn't look at the other, Juwan Howard [because] we knew he wasn't going to come to Duke. The other two kids we didn't think were the caliber that could play as well as Thomas Hill and Brian Davis and Billy McCaffery. They're good kids. They were good kids.
They had a heck of a run but, they didn't leave anything, they didn't establish anything there. The guys that I had established something that Jay Williams continued to do 10 years later -- the standards of what it meant to be a Duke basketball player.
I'm not going to make too strong of a comment about what I think, because, frankly, it doesn't matter much. I will say that I think Coach K is smarter than actually believing Jalen was talking about modern day as opposed to 1991. On the other hand, Jalen laid out some pretty serious allegations in Coach K's direction.
I agree. Unfortunately I think Coach K is right. U of M was rolling in the late 80's and early 90's, but after the Fab 5 we died as a program. However, I definitely do not regret that they came to Michigan.
IF coach K actually watched the documentary he missed the point.
You guys are all so damned self serving. The guy is defending his program. I just wonder if we were on the other side of this debate, whether you would be splitting all these hairs. If 20 years down the line, someone makes a documentary about the OSU program and their coming sanctions, and they call Denard a pussy for going to school at a posh, rich white town like Ann Arbor, instead of going somewhere 'real' like OSU, I would expect Rich Rod to kindly ask them to swallow a knife.
I'm so sick of this mentality. If I told you that 10 minutes ago, when I was reading your post, I thought you sounded like a bitch, would you take offense? Well, I'm much older now and so you can't really throw that one back at me.
I understand EXACTLY what your case is, but if I were being called out like that, I'd damn sure respond to it.
This rant wasn't directed at you, either. It's directed at the argument as a whole.
So if Tressel came out and said Denard didn't establish anything here at M and Pryor did at OSU and unlike Denard, Pryor established standards about what it means to be an OSU football player, you wouldn't find offense? Try finding some fault with Coach K for sounding like a child, when he's paid millions to act like an adult.
If you think the rest of it is defending his program, fine; I've said that I have no problem with it multiple times in this thread. When he comes out and says things that have nothing to do with Duke, and have everything to do with disparaging the Fab Five, he crosses a line.
If Denard played a vital role in the downfall of our football program and without provocation called Pryor an Uncle Tom? Then no, I wouldn't have a problem.
That would never happen.
I don't dislike Jalen or the Fab 5 in any way. I just think that the Duke players and coach have every right to fire back. Trash talk goes both ways, no matter what decade it's derived from.
Jalen didn't talk trash about beating Duke. He said that Duke didn't recruit players like him. I'd also argue that Jalen didn't call Hill an Uncle Tom. He said that as an angry and jealous teen he thought of players like Grant Hill as Uncle Tom's. My point in the OP was that Coach K is smart enough to understand this, and he seems to be intent on being obtuse.
There's no reason for Coach K to come out talking about how they didn't build anything. It makes him and Duke look like a bunch of whiners, and he's paid highly to cast Duke in a good light. He didn't do that in this case.
It is unacceptable for a coach to respond to a documentary that was broadcast continent wide that was littered with comments about how he ran his program, the type of players he recruited and the players he coached? Give me a break.
You couldn't help yourself from complaining about his comments and they weren't even remotely close to being about you so why should he not respond to things that were directed at him?
I want to be clear here...I hate Duke and the Fab Five were what made me a fan of college basketball in the early 90's. I wouldn't trade the opportunity I had to watch them as a group for anything, not even the destruction that ensued after they left. But let's try to be fair here...Coack K (as much as I can't stand him) had every right to respond to this documentary and if you can't see that, you are a homer of the worst kind.
You point out that he is an adult as a reason he shouldn't have responded in the manner he did, but nothing he said was untrue.The Fab Five didn't achieve anything as far as college basketball statistics are concerned....everything was whiped out.
When you put out a documentary like that you just can't step back and say "I was just talking about how I felt 20 years ago" and expect people to be ok with it. I loved the documentary, but people responding in this way is not entirely surprising to me, and it shouldn't be to anyone.
No, I think I made it clear that Jalen said some very provocative things towards Coach K and his program. For Coach K to come out and tell Jalen that he's full of shit is one thing, and probably the right thing to do, given his job.
I don't think there's any reason for him to talk about the legacy of the Fab Five, or lack therof (in his opinion). It strikes me a little like RR going to a presser after the OSU game and saying..."Yea, we got blown out of the water, but we're still 57-44-6 and we're the more historically dominant program". It just wasn't relevant to what he was talking about, and he should have stuck to defending Duke from Jalen's racism/classism allegations. He could easily do that without trying to tear down the five players that he already beat.
You say, "I'm sorry Jalen felt that way, and I think he utterly mischaracterized our program then and now. I'm troubled that he used language that I and my former players find offensive. I'm proud of our players and what they accomplished, during their careers here and since."
And that's about as much as I would expect a major coach to say. End of commentary. It's fair, it's pointed, and it covers the bases with a minimum of controversy.
March 29th, 2011 at 10:19 PM ^
1. What if Jalen was right? That is, what if Coach K really did turn down poor black kids and--forthrightly--made a fairly public point of only taking middle class kids? Because that's more or less what he DID. Hint: it has plenty to do with his politics.
2. What if Coach K, too, was a little bit crooked? (Hint: see Corey Magette.)
3. What if Jalen said that this was NOT yesterday that he felt that way, but 20 YEARS AGO. . . and that he was WRONG, that he had ENVIED kids like Grant Hill, and despaired that he didn't have things like, oh, a f*cking FATHER at home. Because that's what he SAID.
4. What if your mythical Michigan coach was an incredible whiner who traded on a reputation for virtue he had never earned? Because that's what Coach K IS (see numbers 1 and 2). See evidence of his whining on youtube videos number 1-30 out there.
5. What if Duke were a very white, very wealthy school full of very conservative kids who vilified black kids who saw it as in their and their family's best interests to leave for the NBA early? Because that's what Duke IS in the eyes of many people, including many in the black community.
Now, all of these issues have their nuances. But in the world of public perceptions, for a great many black people and not a few white people, that's how Duke has looked, including while beating OUR team in several celebrated games that were very PAINFUL for US. (Clearly, you do not feel that way, for one reason or another; cool.)
But these are among the reasons many people do not like Coach K.
This is, further, the world of SPORTS, where people have a right to hate their rivals, and in this case there is more than a little reason TO hate Coach K, including for the remarks he made right after his team beat us in the championship game, when he said that his team WAS a team and that Michigan was NOT--a huge insult that, from my POV, was completely wrong (see John U Bacon's recent piece in the Freep, which backs me up on this.)
Defend Coach K, defend Duke. That is your turncoat right. But to come on here and RIP people for siding with Jalen on the issue? In the name of MICHIGAN? Because we wouldn't like it either? To go all hissy? Are you kidding? I call bullshit on your bullshit.
March 30th, 2011 at 11:21 PM ^
even greater than their allegiances to their school. . . as the Fab Five found out.
March 29th, 2011 at 11:19 PM ^
Yes, it was pretty clear that Jalen was talking past tense. But, much as I love Jalen, it was pretty inflammatory stuff. I always say that if you are going to be provocative, don't be upset when people are provoked. The documentary comments on Duke were pretty provocative -- no, very provocative. So don't be surprised.
if Coach K didn't respond at all. I have great respect for Coach K, but I don't think it was necessary for him to comment about the documentary or the views of the Fab Five. If he spoke out to every naysayer of Duke, he would not have time to coach or even breath for that matter
The part about the legacy left by the fab5 vs that of Duke was completely unnecessary. I wouldnt think someone that age, with that much success, would be so petty.
Seconded there. I thought Hill's comments about never losing to the Fab Five might have been a bit of a jab back, but to me it's different when the coach from the time says something like that.
Especially since, for good or bad, the Fab Five has an enormous legacy in college basketball. Also especially since he's about to become the winningest coach in history; at some point you have to let up on demeaning your opponents twenty years after the fact.
I think that Coach K's comments were about the legacy they left at UM, which is hard to argue against Coach K about. The Fab 5 clearly left their legacy on college basketball and the culture surrounding basketball, but did they leave a legacy about what it takes and means to be a University of Michigan basketball player/athlete? I can't answer that, but given the results post-fab 5, it doesn't seem that likely. And to be honest with you, as a coach (especially one that's been there for as long as he has), that would be 100 times more important to me than the legacy you leave on college basketball. I don't think Coach K's comments were to belittle any and all impact they made, but the impact they made/left for the program.
That's a fair enough point.
However, he still shouldn't have even gone near it, IMO. He won. They lost. He doesn't need to rehash it twenty years later by (I think) being a bit of a dick to players who were 20 during the time he's speaking about.
I totally agree. Especially for someone as seasoned and successful as Krzyzewski, he really should just shrug off the self admitted past irrational bitterness of an 18 year old. If someone came to me now and told me they hated everything I stood for when they were 18, I would like to think I wouldn't care unless that person still felt that way presently.
The guys that I had established something that Jay Williams continued to do 10 years later
Except for that stretch of several years in the '90s when Duke won nothing and was dominated by UNC. (K's back conveniently acted up on him one of those years, allowing him to avoid taking on a losing record).
Let the record show that they lost to the EMU Eagles (or maybe Hurons) in 1996:
http://www.collegesports-fans.com/ncaa-tournament/school-history/duke-b…
Yes, Coach K, that's quite a legacy.
I won't apologize for cherry-picking, either. :)
And that season represented a major step forward from the losing season they had the year before, when K's back acted up.
For the reference to Coach K's back when they totally sucked. I can't look at him and NOT think of that. Do not like!
What years are you talking about? I'm not a Duke fan but from doing some research they had quite a bit of success throughout the 90's:
Regular Season ACC titles: '91, '92, '94, '97, '98, '99.
ACC Tourney Titles: '92, '99
Final Fours: '90, '91, '92, '94, '99
In 1994-95 - the year Ray Jackson and Jimmy King were seniors - Duke had a losing record. The next two years they made the tourney but were bounced in the first weekend. Keep in mind K's claim that his guys "left behind" the torch for Jay Williams & Co. to pick up. They didn't. Duke took a major step backward in the middle of the decade before returning toward the end of it.
First things first ...
I'm used to hearing focus-grouped remarks from Coach K. (I haven't had the privilege of hearing him scream profanities at refs in Cameron.)
I've certainly seen worse, but I can't believe that he thought Jimmy King (based on his high school rankings, accomplishments, and athleticism, anyway) wouldn't be a bigger contributor than the guys he mentioned. Ray, too, really -- he was a Top 100 recruit and later was the CBA Player of the Year, I believe. That's more than the cited Dukies ever did at the next level. That's not to say they weren't good role players at Duke.
I see where coach K is coming from. We didn't need Carmelo Anthony when we already had Amadou Ba.
Ok, we get! Duke program not happy with Jalen. Jalen just said what a lot of people think/thought about Duke. In my opinion Jalen clarified his statement in the documentary and with Grant Hill. He was explaining how he felt at the time at 19 years old! He's still allowed to hate Duke (most people do) but I don't think it's currently for the same reasons. He also said some not nice things about OSU, and no one cares because they arent so sensative to program hate. People and espn just need to drop it.
EDIT: not mad at OP. Just venting about flak Jalen is getting.
Ha! Didn't think you meant it that way at all, just FYI.
I'm with you on Duke being a little sensitive. I'm glad OSU/MSU/ND hate us; I bet they feel the same way. It's like Duke, for all their positive qualities and success, still has an inferiority complex about people disliking them.
What's funny is that Jalen arguably dogged the '93 UNC team worse than Duke, denying that they were a better team and saying that no one remembers them. He actually gave Duke a lot of praise (in basketball terms, anyway) during the documentary.
he's right, i just watched espn's primetime 2 hour documentary about the 91 duke team and talked about it for a month afterwards. /sarcasm
i know he is talking about winning a title, but it says something about the fab 5 that 20 years later this topic would have this much weight in a totally sports obsessed, 24 hour news cycle world. greanted, duke has had some great teams and won a lot of titles and games, but the impact of the fab 5 changed basketball forever as marketing took a huge step forward and the NBA figured out that 18 year olds could play, thus kobe, KG, and modern basketball.
the fab 5 shocked the world, duke won basketball games
Fab Five well known in Canada....Duke 91...not so much.
Fab Five well known in Canada....Duke 91...not so much.
I'm sick of people who think that being better known two decades later or making a bigger mark on society is better than winning a title -- any title.
Yeah, I get that the Fab Five was a great team and fueled a fun couple of years. But, ultimately, there are no championship banners, not even ones archived in drawers. I reject the idea that Jalen tried to sell that what really matters was your impact over time. Duke and NC had the more meaningful results -- they WON.
I'll take titles (Big Ten and/or NCAA) over notoriety any day.
And what about a 1992 Southeast Regional title and a 1993 West Regional title, then? Ask Bo Ryan how easy it is to win a region.
March 30th, 2011 at 12:58 AM ^
Those are great accomplishments, but not championships.
I don't believe for a minute that you would trade a Final Four appearance for a regular-season conference title. The regular season, for all practical purposes, is four months of exhibition games. March Madness is the real season.
so you can name all 5 starters off of michigan's 89 championship team right now without google?
the quibble was with coach k's "establish" comment, to which i would say that modern basketball, the pro's, college, marketing, all was established by the fab 5, in some way, shape or form. now maybe some of those things were evolving in parts prior to the fab 5, but the fab 5 crystalized them in 2 years.
(rumeal robinson, glen rice, mark hughes/loy vaught, terry mills, mike griffin with sean higgins off the bench)
I had a lot more respect for Duke before all of this came out. Now I'm definitely siding with Jalen circa 1992.
I don't think his comments are petty at all. Coach K is defending his program as he should. He didn't do it in a disrespectful or callous way. He said they recruited C-Web and didn't recruit the other guys for various reasons. I would want the coach of my program to at least implicitly reject a suggestion that the program only recruited a certain type of black player. You may disagree with what he says, but I would want the coach of one of Michigan's teams to make similar comments if someone said similar things about us.
I'm with you until the last quote about legacy. I said in the OP that Jalen laid some serious allegations against Coach K circa 1991.
Let history determine their legacy, though. He just comes off looking petty in the last quote, IMO.
I would want the Michigan coach to say nothing at all. "They left nothing and established nothing" is petty if you ask me.
i'm not sure that coach K properly explained why he didn't recruit the guys other than webber (who came from a middle class family).
didn't recruit jalen because they had grant hill. really? they were 2 years apart, iirc. same goes for the other duke players he mentioned. ya, i can see why any coach wouldn't want grant hill and jalen rose on the same team. really?
he doesn't recruit innercity kids. and that appears to be the truth. rose is right. and it's duke's (and coach K's) right to do so. playing bball at duke (and UM for that matter) is a privelege and not a right.
I really, really hate Coach K.
Me too.
If Coach K was Michigan's coach and Michigan had Duke's record under Coach K, almost everyone in the M fan base and on this board would love him and defend him.
Don't kid yourself. He's a great coach and Duke is lucky to have him.
March 29th, 2011 at 11:35 PM ^
He doesn't coach for Michigan and we don't have Duke's record.
That is like saying "Man, I wish we had Tressel as a coach because he has a great record." Coach K is a good coach and most Michigan fans (most college basketball fans I guess) hate him. No one is kidding themselves.....is it surprising that Michigan fans hate Coach K?
Michigan fans should respect success and wait for their teams to recapture past glory instead of whining and hating the teams and coaches who beat us.
I like to think about what John Wooden would think or do. Do you think he hated and whined about the teams and coaches that beat his teams? (Not that many did.) I think fans of a team and a program with class, with great history, should acknowledge and give credit to the teams that beat their favorite team.
Michigan fans should respect success and wait for their teams to recapture past glory instead of whining and hating the teams and coaches who beat us.Does our criticism of Jim Tressel's honesty or Mark Dantonio's ethics count as not respecting success?
I like to think about what John Wooden would think or do.
It is amazing how people compartmentalize things. John Wooden's UCLA prorgram was as dirty as the day is long. Sam Gilbert was his Ed Martin:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/08/sports/la-sp-0609-wooden-gilbert-20100609