Cleveland Plain Dealer: JT, OSU warned about Talbott in 2007
In a March 21, 2007 email to Tressel, which was provided to the Plain Dealer, a source gave the following warning about the alleged online activities of Talbott, a Columbus-based freelance photographer who also is involved in memorabilia sales:
"He has sold over 50 items with underclassmen signatures before their eligibility expires and would seem to be someone that both you and the university is aware of. I have a full report of his eBay activities if you would like to explore further or require documentation."
The email was sent to the account [email protected]. That is the same address that Columbus attorney Chris Cicero used to email Tressel in April of 2010 about OSU players selling memorabilia, an email that Tressel did not disclose to his bosses, an NCAA violation that eventually led to his May 30 resignation.
http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2011/06/ohio_state_football_prog…
Well, that might just suck.
Sure looks like the entire Pryor era will be vacated soon . . .
Depending on those names, you are into the Smith era. If you now take Clarett at his word you are simply at at the Tressel era
by your careful analysis of the dates and rosters in question, it is possible to suggest that Troy Smith was ineligible for the Heisman ? ? ? ? Now that's gotta hurt !
ummm, this is HUGE news
the chance they escape a LOIC is quickly approaching zero
I'm sad that our dueling posts were deleted.
The board still <3's you.
the best off season ever!
Do you really think that the football program is the only one with violations? What about the basketball program? Do you think they are totally innocent here? How many top recruits do you need to bring in before you smell something fishy?
If they are going to look at the football program for violations, they need to look at the entire athletic program!
Its very possible but lets not make speculations.
Look at this garbage thread. These OSU fans are delusional.
They are so psyched that people are actually able to search for stuff no eBay
It's cute when they try to play detective . . .
Is always a dangerous but one semi-rational contributor noted a Newsweek article coming forward. Im siding with caution here but was curious if anyone had heard of a Newsweek article regarding the Buck$.
Do you remember that horrible feeling of despair and helplessness we all had during the Freep Jihad? This is like that, but with AIDS sprinkled all over it. It must suck so bad for OSU fans to keep seeing this pile on. It's glorious.
Call me an ass, but I don't think something "with AIDS sprinkled on it" is glorious.
This is like that, but if all the original Freep allegations were true, and then some.
This thing with Talbott is for real, and he isn't a goddamn "freelance photographer" -- he works or worked for one of Ohio State's primary trustees.
Eventually if they don't do something it will bring the death penalty into the equation. If they can tie les wexner into this it is over for the program, but who knows if he had a hand in it, it's all just speculation right now.
Ohio-where Christmas everyday takes place
Come on. If Lex Wexner is found to have the slightest connection with Dennis Talbot how could they not be issued the Death Penalty?
People. Stop talking about the death penalty already. I don't know how many times this needs to be reiterated: SMU itself was paying its players, had been on probation on and off for like 15 years prior to being guillotined, and when the NCAA said "Stop paying your players," they didn't stop. The last time the death penalty was even considered it was because the coach tried to cover up the murder of one of his players by another of his players, not a few thousand dollars changing hands.
Easy there let's just enjoy whatever the NCAA does to OSU
I'm sure it'll be a lot less enjoyable for people who expect and/or demand the death penalty and don't get it.
Yea but were all gonna enjoy what ohio state turns into. Plus this is a very good day already so relax
Why would a Michigan fan even want OSU to get the death penalty? How could anyone want to see our archrival drop off our schedule? Imagine being a senior on the 2011 team and suddenly learning that your last crack at OSU is canceled.
M&BW I understand that currently what SMU did is worse than what we know about OSU but I'm curious to know what your thoughts are regarding Wexner. If he was funding Talbot's "Dirty" business with the players would that be enough to constitute a death penalty? Also these violations occured as early as 2007 when the Bucks were still on probation if I'm not mistaken.
It's still not close. Again, SMU "had a payroll to meet" each month. They got caught for all sorts of stuff more serious than what is alleged so far at OSU. Then the whole payroll thing got busted. Then they decided not to stop, "because they had made deals with the players." Then they got caught with the payroll thing again. Then they got the death penalty.
Even if Wexner is involved, he'd have to have a monthly payroll with dozens of Buckeyes AND have the approval of the OSU Board of Regents to equal SMU--but only if he didn't stop after sanctions.
Edit: I personally think the Albert Mean's saga was worse than anything OSU (or USC) did. If you're going to buy players, at least give the money to the player himself, not his coach. That wasn't anywhere near death penalty either.
Thanks for the follow up Zone Left. I guess I'll just leave the Death Penalty in my pile of "Wishful thinking" along with not being severely in debt by the time I earn my degree.
Yup. One rogue trustee - even if the rather tenuous-looking link to Talbott is in fact a money pipeline - still falls well shy of the board of governors itself voting to continue payments from an actual existing slush fund with no purpose except to pay the players, after the NCAA had already slapped down its heavy sanctions.
OSU is not already on probation to the best of my knowledge, so the death penalty won't be on the table.
First of all, OSU was on probation for basketball in 2006 so any second group of "major" violations would certainly fall into the scope of the "repeat violator" rule. Given the current political climate it is certainly possible the NCAA will have to consider the death penalty if there is any causal link to the AD or Board.
In 1985, in response to rampant violations at several schools, the NCAA Council passed the "repeat violator" rule. The rule stipulates that if a second major violation occurs at any institution within five years of being on probation in the same sport or another sport, that institution can be barred from competing in the sport involved in the second violation for either one or two seasons.
OSU is on probation, like Clarkie mentioned. Also, they've been notified by the NCAA that they will likely be treated as repeat violators.
EDIT: Damn Double Post.
It doesn't really matter what they find, even in the highly unlikely case that it's as bad as SMU. The NCAA can smack them awfully hard without shutting down the program.
don't fully understand what SMU was doing back in the 80's, their 30 for 30 "Pony Exce$$" is on at 1pm on ESPN 2... after watching that you'll see what they did was far worse then what OSU is doing...
It seems like Ted Mosby was right:
The second warning about Talbott to OSU came in the summer of 2009. Two employees of Scioto Reserve Golf Club contacted members of the athletic department after seeing Talbott and Pryor golfing together. One employee said he talked to an Ohio State assistant coach he knew socially, and was told the matter would be taken care of. Another employee, Regan Koivisto, the club's general manager, said he called the football office and detailed his concerns while talking to an administrative assistant.
Some gentleman called "the football office" in 2009 to report an NCAA violation that was never disclosed by OSU. Would said "football office" happen to be under the supervision of Tressel, or would that be a division of the Athletic Department that is not under Tressel's control?
From everything I've read, that would seem to be an important distinction.
Any guesses, people?
Would said "football office" happen to be under the supervision of Tressel, or would that be a division of the Athletic Department that is not under Tressel's control?
At this point, it's almost academic. The more it's on Tressel, the bigger the case gets that he was running a rogue program, and that he ran said dirty program for YEARS (as opposed to a one-time "mistake in judgment"). If it's the athletic office, you're staring down the barrel of failure to moniter.
Either way, Hello: Lack of Institutional Control
I just started looking around at the various rules. As part of a guide to "lack of institutional control" by the NCAA Committee on Infractions, they say:
A head coach fails to create and maintain an atmosphere for compliance within
the program the coach supervises or fails to monitor the activities of assistant
coaches regarding compliance.
A head coach has special obligation to establish a spirit of compliance among the entire
team, including assistant coaches, other staff and student-athletes. The head coach
must generally observe the activities of assistant coaches and staff to determine if they
are acting in compliance with NCAA rules. Too often, when assistant coaches are
involved in a web of serious violations, head coaches profess ignorance, saying that they
were too busy to know what was occurring and that they trusted their assistants. Such a
failure by head coaches to control their teams, alone or with the assistance of a staff
member with compliance responsibilities, is a lack of institutional control.
This would make you seem correct: the failure of a single head coach can lead to a lack of institutional control.
However, then I found this in the same document:
VIOLATIONS THAT DO NOT RESULT FROM A LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL.
An institution cannot be expected to control the actions of every individual who is in some way connected with its athletics program. The deliberate or inadvertent violation of a rule by an individual who is not in charge of compliance with rules that are violated will not be considered to be due to a lack of institutional control:
• if adequate compliance measures exist;
• if they are appropriately conveyed to those who need to be aware of them;
• if they are monitored to ensure that such measures are being followed; and
• if, on learning that a violation has occurred, the institution takes swift action.
According to this, if the "football office" was under Tressel's control, then perhaps you could say that the whole dirty operation was simply "the deliberate . . . violation of a rule by an individual."
But if you do find a lack of institutional control, then that opens the door to a post-season ban per NCAA bylaws. Which would be sweet.
Some of the 300 plus reported minor violations? Doubt it.
Like others have mentioned, the death penalty won't happen again especially to a school like Ohio State?
Major, major sanctions resulting in a multiple-year (think 3 or 4) bowl ban, loss of scholarships (think 60 over 4 years), and a lifetime show-cause to Tressel would be my best guess.
Again, others have brought the fact that an assistant with USC had minimal contact with one agent paying one player and that brought a 2 year postseason ban and 30 lost schollies over 3 years.
This seems to span the entire program and involve multiple players and shady personalities. The penalities are going to be much, much worse.
Bliss got a 10 year show cause for covering up a murder and organizing payments to players. 4-5 years is more likely for Tressel, but he's probably done regardless.
I think you need to account for the real change in media coverage and the shift in pressures on the NCAA immediately following the Cam Newton controversy and Tat 5 bowl appearance. There is a very real pressure on the NCAA not to fcuk this one up and regardless of Ohio's status (achieved in the most recent decade via rampant cheating) it's pretty certain the NCAA has to send a message with extreme severity if simply to feed the media beast and avoid Dohrmann et al. knocking down their doors with investigative pieces.
I don't know that the death penalty will be off the table given that we hear something remarkable and new about the Ohio program every day in terms of their innovative cheating. That said, whatever penalties ensue wlll certainly dwarf the USC penalties.
It's funny to reconsider the March two game suspension of Tressel and the Gee/Smith performance in this light.
I don't know that many people with influence would want a death penalty for OSU. The SMU and Baylor things were just so much worse than anything OSU is being accused of that it seems really unlikely that road will be taken.
My perception is that the NCAA is under a lot of pressure from certain groups (read PAC-12 and USC) to not let OSU off with lighter sanctions than USC. I'd guess somewhere around 11-12 lost schollies each year for 3 years with something like a 73 person roster, free transfers, a bowl ban for a couple seasons, and a show cause order for 4-5 years for Tressel.
Now with TV revenue being so important, I can't see TV bans being imposed because it punishes the teams they play too.
FWIW, I don't want them to get the death penalty. I'd just prefer they suck for 6-7 years while they climb out of their hole.
USC lost 10 per year for 3 years, so I'd wager OSU gets hit harder (15 per for 4 seems like an upgrade)
Didn't even think about roster limits. Perhaps that'll bring the schollie reduction closer to USC levels.
Didn't realize Bliss only got a 10 year show cause. That's ridiculous. \
So, basically my prediction stands (with some slight tweaks):
- 50 scholarships over 4 years
- 73 man roster limit (thanks for the heads up)
- 3 year postseason ban
- 5 year show cause for Tressel
That's not the death penalty, more like 25 to life with the possibility of parole.
I really agree with Clarkie that the NCAA is not happy with their public perception following the Newton and Tat 5 Sugar Bowl fiascos. I also expect that they are going to feel that they can somewhat rehabilitate their image if they dole out some frontier justice on the next ne'er do well, which, as fate would have it, is OSU.
Is it completely fair that they will have to take some of the fall for Auburn? Maybe not, but given the disrespect that OSU showed them, first by allowing the players to play in the Sugar Bowl (falsely promising that they would return), and then by giving Tressel a two game suspension at the same time he was lying to pretty much everyone, makes me think that some pretty rough stuff is in line for OSU . . .
As far as I know, Bliss was never accused of covering up Dennehy's murder. He was trying to cover up his payments to Dennehy, which were going to be exposed in the course of the murder investigation, and lying about his prior knowledge that Dennehy had been threatened and was afraid for his safety.
But you're still right, interfering with a murder investigation by attempting to persuade your players to give false testimony by tarnishing the memory and reputation of the victim is a whole other realm of despicable compared to anything Tressel's been accused of.