Class size may be creeping up per Sam Webb

Submitted by ypsituckyboy on

On the recruiting roundup this morning, Sam Webb said this class has been pegged at 28 but now may creep up a bit (I'd assume he means one or two above that). I know Steve Lorenz at 247 has pegged it at 27, but just thought it was interesting that it may get larger.

If we're at 23 now, with a few more expected decommits, that'd mean adding 7 or 8 more guys to the class. Best guesses?

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SAMgO

January 14th, 2016 at 8:51 AM ^

Not according to Sam. His note on this point is:

"For those wondering about the Big Ten rule that allows over-signing by three, remember that the seven early enrollees count toward last year's class."

So backdating all the early enrollees should allow us to avoid any surprise greyshirts.

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beef supreme

January 14th, 2016 at 9:25 AM ^

You are correct sir. As far as what chad hawley is saying here, anyone who enrolls mid year can count against that years total up to the limit of 85. The rule of 3 is u can over sign by 3, but have to show evidence of how you got back to the limit if 85 before fall. http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/23032/the-big-tens-take-on-ove…

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1464

January 14th, 2016 at 10:45 AM ^

I am under the same impression.  Your entire class can enroll early, so long as it doesn't put you over 85.  However, only 3 of them can count for the previous year's class.  So I thought that 28 was a hard cap.  Actually, I still do think that 28 is a hard cap.  My guess is that there will be gray-shirting if the class grows beyond 28.

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joeyb

January 14th, 2016 at 10:48 AM ^

Yea, that's my thought too. It was mentioned somewhere that there were a couple of commits that agreed to greyshirt unless there was room. I'm guessing that when you take that into consideration, the cap is actually more like 25+3+number of greyshirts.

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schreibee

January 14th, 2016 at 12:57 PM ^

OK - here's one:

What about class of '15 EE? How many did we have amidst the turmoil of exit-Hoke/enter-Harbaugh?

Can they now be reclassified to '14, with openings that have since been created? Is there, in other words, a definitive hard list of which EE player a school is considering part of the previous year's class? A list that once submitted cannot be tinkered with as players leave, etc

If you can keep flexibly back-dating EE players to previous classes as space becomes available, then someone from '14 can retroactively be slid back into D. Green's now empty spot (assuming that schollie has been abandoned), creating a space to slide a '15 EE back to '14, etc.

Or have I messed with the time/space continuum too much?

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Space Coyote

January 14th, 2016 at 8:56 AM ^

The class limit for Big Ten teams is 25, though you are allowed to back-date 3, meaning you can take a class of up to 28.

What this likely means is that Sam thinks we will reach 28 and then take a transfer or two, as those don't count against your class size, or grayshirts, which would count toward the next class. But Michigan cannot go above 28 with incoming freshmen that can play next year.

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FreddieMercuryHayes

January 14th, 2016 at 8:57 AM ^

I thought the 3 man rule applied to the 85 man total limit; i.e if UM has 24 open scholarships expected to reach the 85 limit, they are allowed to sign 27, or three extra. Any more and you have to justify to the conference where those are coming from. Didn't realize there was a limit on how many can be backdated. Maybe I misunderstood the rule.



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CalifExile

January 14th, 2016 at 11:41 AM ^

Wrong. 85 is a hard cap. You can never be above 85. That's part of the reason there is a limit on the number of EEs a school can accommodate. Class size is set at 25 but there is flexibility there. Examples of the devices that allow class size flexibility are counting EEs against the prior year (if that class was under 25), and greyshirts who don't go on scholarship until January of the next year. Actually it would be more accurate to state that the class size can never be above 25 but the calendar year when a recruit commits doesn't determine which class he will be counted against. See http://www.scout.com/college/football/recruiting/story/1509458-one-ship…

One last quirk should be mentioned. Grad transfers don't count against class size. It's possible that Jake from Allstate is being included in Sam Webb's calculation.

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bluesalt

January 14th, 2016 at 10:35 AM ^

But that's apparently irrelevant. We were at, I think, 82 scholarships used this past season, although presumably those extra schollies went to walk ons for the year. What matters is 25 new kids who count this year, as opposed to being backdated. What also matters is being at 85 at the end of August -- although what matters to most of us morally is that there aren't any players who are surprised this summer that they don't have a scholarship. If we can backdate up to 7, we could take 30, and have room to backdate two extra players next year. Consider this a positive side of transition.

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orangeda

January 14th, 2016 at 11:47 AM ^

they could take up to 35, which would include the 7 EE's, plus 28(25 + 3) fall 2016 counters, but, in order to do that, Michigan would need to provide the B1G office with a written explanation of how they will expect to be at the 85 scholarship limit(the hard cap) by the start of next season. 

If Sam is saying he now expects them to get to 30, then the staff must now be expecting to lose at least 12 guys from the current team who have not already exhuasted their eligibility, as they are at 20 schollies available after the departures of Richardson and Douglass.

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TESOE

January 14th, 2016 at 12:00 PM ^

He is pretty adamant about rule following.  I'm not sure what your concern is here as long as the players/parents are not grouching.  There is so much uncertainty with recruiting.  With a new coach, on a big stage, the rule is going to be excercised to its limit. 

Even if a greyshirt happens ... as long as the communication is clean I don't see an issue with it.  That said - I don't recall any player taking a gap year during a greyshirt.  Those players pay tuition but get development and training table (I think).

I don't know what's best here honestly.  It depends on what perspective you take... Michigan's, the player/parent or CFB at large.  I'm ok with everything as it follows the rules and is transparent to the players.

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4roses

January 14th, 2016 at 10:21 AM ^

All this talk of #'s, who counts, who doesn't, grey-shirts - could it be any more convoluted??? I think this is all great justification for going to the simplified Brian Cook proposal (i.e. every team gets to award X scholarships each season).  And yes, I know, it will never happen . . . 

 

     

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BoFlex

January 14th, 2016 at 9:19 AM ^

Out of curiousity, I was going to try and rationalize all this by saying Saban has oversigned by a lot more at Alabama. During my google-fu, I was led to an old MGoBlog post by Brian back in 2008.

In Nick Saban's 2nd year at Alabama, he lost 15 seniors and signed a class of 32 recruits, but magically got under the 85-scholarship limit. Harbaugh is losing 13 seniors (+ 3 banked scholarships), and is now supposedly hoping to finish the class with ~30 players...

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Scarlatina

January 14th, 2016 at 1:20 PM ^

Yeah... Everyone was throwing a fit about Urban offering him a medical because he played in the National Championship game. Except, Reeves suffered his FOURTH concussion during that game. Reeves' godfather, Brent Williams was the one that convinced him to step away from football before he lost the ability to function normally. http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/02/report-ohio-states-…

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TESOE

January 14th, 2016 at 12:08 PM ^

from players.  Let's wait until a high school coach or athlete's parents throw a flag before we harken to the SEC oversigning diatribe.  The compliance department does this job for MIchigan and there is no clear issue here other than bloggers blogging.

The coaches need to let people know which dominoe they are and let them fall as they are set.  The reality is uncertainty is certain.

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Reader71

January 14th, 2016 at 1:08 PM ^

I don't think the suspected problems would be with the high school kids. If we end up over the 85 scholarship limit, the issue becomes which of the current M football players is leaving. The next question is why? Was he forced out, forced to take a medical, ostracized by the coaches yo the point of wanting out, etc.? All of those, and more possibilities, are bad. There are legit reasons, too. Guys might have already decided to transfer/quit football/take a legitimate medical, etc. But because the coaches aren't going to talk about that, we are left to speculate. And of course, there is always the risk of another Pipkins situation

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TESOE

January 14th, 2016 at 7:13 PM ^

He didn't raise a ruckus when he left. If it was medical as presumed to raise an issue would hurt his prospects. Let's see how his time at Texas Tech goes. I wish Pipkins the best. He got an extra year out of the deal toward his degree. Don't feel queasy about that.

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TESOE

January 14th, 2016 at 7:12 PM ^

The issue is transparency in my opinion.

No one is going to "force out" current players, but they may not fit the current system.  In the second year of a new coach... that is OK.  Terry Richardson is a good example of this.  Terry has football left and can take it wherever he wants.  The current staff is helping to make that happen.

Getting a football scholarship is not like winning the lottery.  None of these players wants to be at Michigan if they aren't invited to camp.  There are too many good schools and only so much time to play football - which is a once in a lifetime opportunity for most all these guys.

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VicTorious1

January 14th, 2016 at 10:25 AM ^

The relevant provisions from the 2015-2016 NCAA Division I Guidelines are below:

Per Class and Annual Limit:

15.5.6.1 Bowl Subdivision Football. [FBS] There shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of initial counters (per Bylaw 15.02.3.1) and an annual limit of 85 on the total number of counters (including initial counters) in football at each institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/92, 12/15/06)

Fall Recruits:

15.5.6.3.1 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering in Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters in the fall term and receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) during the first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that year in football. Therefore, such aid shall not be awarded if the institution has reached its limit on the number of initial counters prior to the award of institutional financial aid to the student-athlete. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

Early Enrollees:

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

Grayshirt:

15.5.6.3.3 Recruited Student-Athlete, Aid Received After First Year. [FBS/FCS] A recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) (including a student-athlete who was not a qualifier) who first receives athletically related financial aid after the student-athlete’s first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that academic year in which the aid is first received, if such aid is received during the fall term. However, such a student-athlete who first receives athletically related financial aid in the second or third term of an academic year may be considered an initial counter during the academic year in which aid was first received or the next academic year. In either case, the student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/3/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

Definition of a Student-Athlete Recruit:

15.02.8 Recruited Student-Athlete. For purposes of Bylaw 15, a recruited student-athlete is a studentathlete who, as a prospective student-athlete: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

(a) Was provided an official visit to the institution’s campus;

(b) Had an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with a member of the institution’s coaching staff (including a coach’s arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete’s parents, relatives or legal guardians); or

(c) Was issued a National Letter of Intent or a written offer of athletically related financial aid by the institution for a regular academic term.

 

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Jinxed

January 14th, 2016 at 10:50 AM ^

Yup...

I'll be waiting for Brian's faux outrage piece once signing day comes and we're over the 85 scholarship limit. (I know it won't come) This is precisely why I'm always slow to judge other schools when they do shady stuff. Too much egg on the face when your own team does it. 

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