Class size may be creeping up per Sam Webb
On the recruiting roundup this morning, Sam Webb said this class has been pegged at 28 but now may creep up a bit (I'd assume he means one or two above that). I know Steve Lorenz at 247 has pegged it at 27, but just thought it was interesting that it may get larger.
If we're at 23 now, with a few more expected decommits, that'd mean adding 7 or 8 more guys to the class. Best guesses?
January 14th, 2016 at 8:35 AM ^
So it appears that we're joining the other major CFB powers in oversigning this year.
January 14th, 2016 at 8:39 AM ^
But can't the guys who enrolled early count towords the last class?
January 14th, 2016 at 8:43 AM ^
IIRC. Which would leave 2 extras that would have to be off scholarship by the time school starts (or maybe it's summer camp, I don't recall off hand).
January 14th, 2016 at 8:49 AM ^
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January 14th, 2016 at 10:17 AM ^
Ohio State took "31" in 2014 but if you look more closely, 8 of those were walk on or preferred walk on. I only determined that by looking at 24/7. The other recruiting services list them at 23, which is the number that matters as it is the number that goes against the scholarship count.
January 14th, 2016 at 8:51 AM ^
Not according to Sam. His note on this point is:
"For those wondering about the Big Ten rule that allows over-signing by three, remember that the seven early enrollees count toward last year's class."
So backdating all the early enrollees should allow us to avoid any surprise greyshirts.
January 14th, 2016 at 9:25 AM ^
January 14th, 2016 at 10:28 AM ^
I thought that the B1G rule was that they would allow you to back-date 3 early enrollees, so the 25+3 gave us 28.
January 14th, 2016 at 10:45 AM ^
I am under the same impression. Your entire class can enroll early, so long as it doesn't put you over 85. However, only 3 of them can count for the previous year's class. So I thought that 28 was a hard cap. Actually, I still do think that 28 is a hard cap. My guess is that there will be gray-shirting if the class grows beyond 28.
January 14th, 2016 at 10:48 AM ^
Yea, that's my thought too. It was mentioned somewhere that there were a couple of commits that agreed to greyshirt unless there was room. I'm guessing that when you take that into consideration, the cap is actually more like 25+3+number of greyshirts.
January 14th, 2016 at 12:57 PM ^
OK - here's one:
What about class of '15 EE? How many did we have amidst the turmoil of exit-Hoke/enter-Harbaugh?
Can they now be reclassified to '14, with openings that have since been created? Is there, in other words, a definitive hard list of which EE player a school is considering part of the previous year's class? A list that once submitted cannot be tinkered with as players leave, etc
If you can keep flexibly back-dating EE players to previous classes as space becomes available, then someone from '14 can retroactively be slid back into D. Green's now empty spot (assuming that schollie has been abandoned), creating a space to slide a '15 EE back to '14, etc.
Or have I messed with the time/space continuum too much?
January 14th, 2016 at 8:45 AM ^
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January 14th, 2016 at 8:56 AM ^
The class limit for Big Ten teams is 25, though you are allowed to back-date 3, meaning you can take a class of up to 28.
What this likely means is that Sam thinks we will reach 28 and then take a transfer or two, as those don't count against your class size, or grayshirts, which would count toward the next class. But Michigan cannot go above 28 with incoming freshmen that can play next year.
January 14th, 2016 at 8:57 AM ^
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January 14th, 2016 at 8:59 AM ^
This isn't true. You can oversign by three with regards to the 85 man limit. Every early enrollee can be backdated to the previous class. Last year's class was very small which is why we're able to take seven guys in early this year.
January 14th, 2016 at 9:21 AM ^
We can take 25 now, plus the 7 EE's, for a total class of 32?
January 14th, 2016 at 9:24 AM ^
As long as when they show up we're at or below a total of 88.
January 14th, 2016 at 11:41 AM ^
Wrong. 85 is a hard cap. You can never be above 85. That's part of the reason there is a limit on the number of EEs a school can accommodate. Class size is set at 25 but there is flexibility there. Examples of the devices that allow class size flexibility are counting EEs against the prior year (if that class was under 25), and greyshirts who don't go on scholarship until January of the next year. Actually it would be more accurate to state that the class size can never be above 25 but the calendar year when a recruit commits doesn't determine which class he will be counted against. See http://www.scout.com/college/football/recruiting/story/1509458-one-ship…
One last quirk should be mentioned. Grad transfers don't count against class size. It's possible that Jake from Allstate is being included in Sam Webb's calculation.
January 14th, 2016 at 10:13 AM ^
we took 18 guys. This year if we take 32 for a total of 50. It balances out to 25 each year.
It doesn't seem so unfair when you look at it that way. And if anything it's only fair that it allows to make up for a transition year.
January 14th, 2016 at 10:22 AM ^
I'm confused...last year we took 18, but did the 18 recruits give us a total of 85 for 2015 or did it give us some lesser amount?
January 14th, 2016 at 10:35 AM ^
January 14th, 2016 at 11:47 AM ^
they could take up to 35, which would include the 7 EE's, plus 28(25 + 3) fall 2016 counters, but, in order to do that, Michigan would need to provide the B1G office with a written explanation of how they will expect to be at the 85 scholarship limit(the hard cap) by the start of next season.
If Sam is saying he now expects them to get to 30, then the staff must now be expecting to lose at least 12 guys from the current team who have not already exhuasted their eligibility, as they are at 20 schollies available after the departures of Richardson and Douglass.
January 14th, 2016 at 10:45 AM ^
But I very well could be wrong. Interesting if that's the case and really not sure how I feel about it.
January 14th, 2016 at 12:00 PM ^
He is pretty adamant about rule following. I'm not sure what your concern is here as long as the players/parents are not grouching. There is so much uncertainty with recruiting. With a new coach, on a big stage, the rule is going to be excercised to its limit.
Even if a greyshirt happens ... as long as the communication is clean I don't see an issue with it. That said - I don't recall any player taking a gap year during a greyshirt. Those players pay tuition but get development and training table (I think).
I don't know what's best here honestly. It depends on what perspective you take... Michigan's, the player/parent or CFB at large. I'm ok with everything as it follows the rules and is transparent to the players.
January 14th, 2016 at 8:52 AM ^
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January 14th, 2016 at 9:17 AM ^
Magic number is still 85 though.
January 14th, 2016 at 10:21 AM ^
All this talk of #'s, who counts, who doesn't, grey-shirts - could it be any more convoluted??? I think this is all great justification for going to the simplified Brian Cook proposal (i.e. every team gets to award X scholarships each season). And yes, I know, it will never happen . . .
January 14th, 2016 at 9:19 AM ^
Out of curiousity, I was going to try and rationalize all this by saying Saban has oversigned by a lot more at Alabama. During my google-fu, I was led to an old MGoBlog post by Brian back in 2008.
In Nick Saban's 2nd year at Alabama, he lost 15 seniors and signed a class of 32 recruits, but magically got under the 85-scholarship limit. Harbaugh is losing 13 seniors (+ 3 banked scholarships), and is now supposedly hoping to finish the class with ~30 players...
January 14th, 2016 at 9:30 AM ^
do you really care??? if it brings a national championship.... its about time we play by the same rules as the sec and ohio state...
January 14th, 2016 at 9:46 AM ^
IIRC, Urban has only oversigned once while at Ohio State and it was last year's class, which oversigned by ~4 players.
January 14th, 2016 at 10:36 AM ^
Lots of bogus medical hardships though...
January 14th, 2016 at 11:37 AM ^
Feel free to identify these lots.
January 14th, 2016 at 1:20 PM ^
January 14th, 2016 at 10:40 AM ^
I do.
January 14th, 2016 at 11:01 AM ^
fuck off
January 14th, 2016 at 11:43 AM ^
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January 14th, 2016 at 11:52 AM ^
Seriously. Just find a winning team. No reason for you to support a team like Michigan whose primary goal isn't winning.
January 14th, 2016 at 11:52 AM ^
Seriously. Just find a winning team. No reason for you to support a team like Michigan whose primary goal isn't winning.
January 14th, 2016 at 3:29 PM ^
what is your primary goal then.... seems like harbaugh's primary goal IS winning. he has stated that MANY times!!! glad he is our head coach and not you.....
January 14th, 2016 at 11:51 AM ^
Yes. Why do you want to win a national Championship so badly that you don't care about screwing over the athletes?
Fuck what the SEC and Ohio State do. We are Michigan.
January 14th, 2016 at 12:08 PM ^
from players. Let's wait until a high school coach or athlete's parents throw a flag before we harken to the SEC oversigning diatribe. The compliance department does this job for MIchigan and there is no clear issue here other than bloggers blogging.
The coaches need to let people know which dominoe they are and let them fall as they are set. The reality is uncertainty is certain.
January 14th, 2016 at 1:08 PM ^
January 14th, 2016 at 3:10 PM ^
The Pipkins thing made me uncomfortable.
January 14th, 2016 at 7:13 PM ^
He didn't raise a ruckus when he left. If it was medical as presumed to raise an issue would hurt his prospects. Let's see how his time at Texas Tech goes. I wish Pipkins the best. He got an extra year out of the deal toward his degree. Don't feel queasy about that.
January 14th, 2016 at 4:52 PM ^
January 14th, 2016 at 7:12 PM ^
The issue is transparency in my opinion.
No one is going to "force out" current players, but they may not fit the current system. In the second year of a new coach... that is OK. Terry Richardson is a good example of this. Terry has football left and can take it wherever he wants. The current staff is helping to make that happen.
Getting a football scholarship is not like winning the lottery. None of these players wants to be at Michigan if they aren't invited to camp. There are too many good schools and only so much time to play football - which is a once in a lifetime opportunity for most all these guys.
January 14th, 2016 at 12:21 PM ^
loved the hoke era... we were oh sooooooooo nice to all of those recruits. i am not saying to screw them i am just saying play by the same rules. i guess by your standards we should not be having satellite camps because we should not be skirting the rules...
January 14th, 2016 at 10:25 AM ^
The relevant provisions from the 2015-2016 NCAA Division I Guidelines are below:
Per Class and Annual Limit:
15.5.6.1 Bowl Subdivision Football. [FBS] There shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of initial counters (per Bylaw 15.02.3.1) and an annual limit of 85 on the total number of counters (including initial counters) in football at each institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/92, 12/15/06)
Fall Recruits:
15.5.6.3.1 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering in Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters in the fall term and receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) during the first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that year in football. Therefore, such aid shall not be awarded if the institution has reached its limit on the number of initial counters prior to the award of institutional financial aid to the student-athlete. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
Early Enrollees:
15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
Grayshirt:
15.5.6.3.3 Recruited Student-Athlete, Aid Received After First Year. [FBS/FCS] A recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) (including a student-athlete who was not a qualifier) who first receives athletically related financial aid after the student-athlete’s first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that academic year in which the aid is first received, if such aid is received during the fall term. However, such a student-athlete who first receives athletically related financial aid in the second or third term of an academic year may be considered an initial counter during the academic year in which aid was first received or the next academic year. In either case, the student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/3/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
Definition of a Student-Athlete Recruit:
15.02.8 Recruited Student-Athlete. For purposes of Bylaw 15, a recruited student-athlete is a studentathlete who, as a prospective student-athlete: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) Was provided an official visit to the institution’s campus;
(b) Had an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with a member of the institution’s coaching staff (including a coach’s arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete’s parents, relatives or legal guardians); or
(c) Was issued a National Letter of Intent or a written offer of athletically related financial aid by the institution for a regular academic term.
January 14th, 2016 at 10:50 AM ^
Yup...
I'll be waiting for Brian's faux outrage piece once signing day comes and we're over the 85 scholarship limit. (I know it won't come) This is precisely why I'm always slow to judge other schools when they do shady stuff. Too much egg on the face when your own team does it.
January 14th, 2016 at 11:16 AM ^
So far we've only signed 7 players (the early enrollees).