"Claimed" National Titles

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May 25th, 2011 at 4:05 PM
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severs28
Joined: 04/21/2010
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"Claimed" National Titles

During the most recent stretch of football at the University of Michigan, I am constantly reminded by opposing fan bases that we have won 1/2 a NC since 1948.  The majority of these fans are MSU fans OSU fans, but the rest of the Big 10 is picking it up.  

I don't know how many more times I can take hearing from Sparty that they have won 6 in 51, 52, 55, 57, 65 and 66 in that same time frame that we have 1/2. 

Of course because of all this I had to check out the "claimed national championships", and realized there are an additional 11 NC for Michigan, most notablly in 85, 73, 64. 

Why are we not more apt to include these additional NC's when defending ourseleves to the drones of Sparties and other fan bases. 

What exactly is the difference between our 11 claimed yet not claimed NC, and the othres that clearly "claim" their "claimed NC's".

Maybe I am just letting them get to me after all this time, being that I have to work with a boatload of Spartans and Buckeyes, but next time Sparty boasts their 6 claimed titles, be sure to remind them that if we count that way, we have 22.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_...

 

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May 25th, 2011 at 4:10 PM | suggestion (Score:0 Normal)
May 25th, 2011 at 4:14 PM | Sparty claims national titles (Score:3 Normal)
BlueDragon
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Sparty claims national titles if they were voted #1 in just one poll.  UM requires consensus #1 votes.

Abort, Retry, Fail?

May 25th, 2011 at 4:25 PM | There was at least (Score:1)
severs28
Joined: 04/21/2010
MGoPoints: 209

one year that they claimed a NC and finished #2 in both polls.  But I see what you are saying about UM. Thanks for the input.

May 25th, 2011 at 5:17 PM | Sparty claims a National (Score:3 Normal)
saveferris
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Sparty claims a National Championship in any poll or math selector system that names them.  Michigan only claims Championships granted by the major polls of the time.

If Sparty followed Michigan's guidelines for claiming legitimate championships, they'd only have 2 in their history.  1952 (Consensus AP and UPI champion) and 1965 (UPI, Alabama was AP Champ).  Of course, since they like to only grant us credit for half a title in 1997, then I guess they only have 1.5 real championships to their name.

Of course, I'm not sure why anyone would give two shits what the Spartans thought of us, but whatever.

 

"...what do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?"

"Fix the cigarette lighter."

May 25th, 2011 at 4:17 PM | My opinion (Score:5 Normal)
Michigan Shirt
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Well going by the National Poll Championships (1936-Present) located down at the bottom which is described as

 

The following table contains the National Championships that have been recognized by the AP or Coaches' Poll. The BCS champion is automatically awarded the Coaches' Poll championship.

then they only have two (1952 and 1965) and we only have two (1948 and 1997). So if they are counting their other 4 Championships than you should be able to count our other 3 in that argument, however I would only count them if they are given by one of the major polls.

May 25th, 2011 at 4:21 PM | Little brother (Score:5 Normal)
Patent Pending
Joined: 11/13/2010
MGoPoints: 120

MSU's claim of 6 titles is a joke. Their claimed 1955 and 1957 NCs are each based on ONE mathematical model, while everybody else in the world gave it to a better team.

The reason we don't claim those other NCs is because we were not really the champs. Just because someone, somewhere says we're number one doesn't make it so.

MSU, being a little brother, takes those accolades when they can get them. The fact that they actually crow about those NCs is just further evidence of their inferiority.

May 25th, 2011 at 4:25 PM | By that logic, Sparty has (Score:2)
Carcajous
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By that logic, Sparty has 2.28 NCs in their history (dividing their "claimed" NCs by the number of other schools also given the title by some organization that year).

 

It is all smoke and mirrors anyway.  There was an article about all the NCs Alabama "claims" a while back.  In short, many of them are bunk.

EDIT:  Found it:

http://blog.al.com/solomon/2010/01/got_12.html

May 25th, 2011 at 4:51 PM | I'd like to see a list like (Score:1)
aenima0311
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I'd like to see a list like that for Michigan, just for curiosity and clarity's sake.

Pronounced Ahh-Neh-Muh

May 25th, 2011 at 4:25 PM | When someone wants to (Score:5 Normal)
ReadYourGuard
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When someone wants to continually denegrate an undefeated season in modern-day college football which resulted in National Championship Trophy, they're not really arguing their point.  They're just verbalizing their biased, unadulterated hatred for that particular school.  No matter how you look at it, Michigan won a National Championship in 1997.  End. Of. Story.

"the Spirit of Michigan...is based on a deathless loyalty to Michigan and all her ways....and a conviction that nowhere is there a better university, in any way, than this Michigan of ours" - Fielding Yost
May 25th, 2011 at 4:24 PM | Sparty claims 2 or 3 in years (Score:3 Normal)
UMxWolverines
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Sparty claims 2 or 3 in years they didn't even win the big ten. So yeah...

"Ohio is like a giant turd that Michigan just can't pinch off"

May 25th, 2011 at 4:26 PM | Alabama and many other (Score:1)
aenima0311
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Alabama and many other schools do the same thing. Just because some podunk organiation or publication declares you the national champion doesn't make it so. To me it's the Coaches Poll, the AP Poll or nothing.

Pronounced Ahh-Neh-Muh

May 25th, 2011 at 4:34 PM | Ole Miss claimed one in 1959 (Score:2)
Dreisbach Turne...
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Ole Miss claimed one in 1959 when SU was the undisputed #1.

It happens all the time in basketball, UNC and Kansas claim a number that were Helms Foundation champs that most schools don't recognize.

Syracuse '03, Michigan G'05

Space bitches, space.

May 25th, 2011 at 5:33 PM | Why is the claim in 1947 (Score:3 Insightful)
joeyb
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Why is the claim in 1947 flimsy? I get why you would call it unofficial, but saying that ND deserved it seems even flimsier. Plus, until the BCS came out, every poll was unofficial, which is why we have this mess to begin with. Even then, there was controversy and split titles until the NCG was introduced. If you want to get really unofficial, you should look at Yost's NC titles considering the AP poll didn't even come out until Kipke was coaching.

May 25th, 2011 at 10:31 PM | a little history on ND's NCs and Heisman winners also (Score:3 Underrated)
Wolfman
Joined: 07/23/2008
MGoPoints: 537

They  r the ones who went to the AP and requested they come up w/a "recognized NC" at the end of each season. They, along with the AP writers declared this vote to the "the recognized NC."  They did so during the best run of ND football in its history. Couple this w/the fact that, as in any profession, you will have more Catholics than any other, they were bound to receive more votes. However, after their NC in 47 was taken away from them because UM dominated USC in far greater fashion than did the Irish that same year, they wouldn't reqlinquish claim, even though they were the ones that made up the rules.

Consider also you had Heisman winners like Hart - the lineman, and Hornung(losing team) - same year Jim Brown was running for Syracuse, and you'll begin to realize ND has a hell of a lot more myth than it does credibility. Take a look at their Heisman winners, and you'll recognize immediately the most inconsequential winners of the award.

Facts that can't be denied are M has most all-time wins, highest all-time winning %, and perhaps the strongest barometer of historical significance, the strongest all-time SOS, also. ND had shit compared to us. Let's not forget the head-to-head record either. They're step-sisters, red-headed at that.

May 25th, 2011 at 4:31 PM | Post 1936-If it isn't a (Score:2)
MichiganExile
Joined: 01/12/2009
MGoPoints: 1120

Post 1936-If it isn't a Coaches or AP title it probably shouldn't be claimed. Claiming those 6 national titles is like claiming they are now a national recruiting power.

Edit: I think I remember reading that MSU was the first school to allow blacks to play football and that once the south started recruiting and playing black players the well dried up for MSU. That's probably the only reason they have any of those titles anyway.

May 25th, 2011 at 4:42 PM | They probably also claim (Score:3 Normal)
Hurricane
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They probably also claim responsibility for ending Jim Crow laws, inventing the game of football, discovering the polio vaccine, ending the Cold War, and being a national recruitng power based on minor coincidences or small shreds of evidence.  It doesnt make their claims any less preposterous.

And when we play as a team, when the old season is over, you and I know, it's gonna be Michigan again, Michigan

May 25th, 2011 at 5:14 PM | Dude they have offers out all (Score:1)
justingoblue
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Dude they have offers out all over the country, obviously they're a national recruiting power. Since that's true, I have no reason to doubt that they also did the rest.

"We bring you to Michigan to take care of Michigan; your job is to protect that block M."
-Carol Hutchins

May 25th, 2011 at 5:45 PM | I stand corrected.  Perhaps (Score:1)
Hurricane
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I stand corrected.  Perhaps we can get a slow clap started for all of Sparty's tremendous accomplishments right after Dantonio accepts his citizen of the year award from the Michigan State Police.

And when we play as a team, when the old season is over, you and I know, it's gonna be Michigan again, Michigan

May 25th, 2011 at 4:36 PM | 51, 52, 55, 57, 65 and 66?! (Score:2 Insightful)
Everyone Murders
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To each his own, but I wouldn't let braggadocio about national championships (legit or not) that are more than four decades old bother me much.  It's like the University of Chicago bragging about its early 20th Century dominance of the gridiron.  It may or may not be true, but it doesn't make them relevant today.

Referencing national titles, the most recent of which is (by their measure) 1966, displays a charming degree of insecurity.  Perhaps they can put up a billboard on I-96 to remind us of their 1960s prowess.

(The Sparty rap that does get under my skin is the "we beat Michigan the past three years, brah" - because that's true.  I expect Michigan to right that ship soon, but they do have that bragging right for now.)

  • "Of course I care about that stuff.  To the point of irrationality.  It will always be Michigan first, cancer second."  Jim Mandich (RIP)
May 25th, 2011 at 4:58 PM | In comparing Michigan's and (Score:2 Normal)
Raoul
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In comparing Michigan's and MSU's claimed titles, it seems fitting to mention 1973 given that MSU voted that year to keep U-M out of the Rose Bowl, thus ruining any chance U-M had of gaining a more legitimate mythical title.

Twitter: @Raoul_000

May 25th, 2011 at 4:40 PM | A great thing about being a Michigan fan: (Score:5 Normal)
Erik_in_Dayton
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Michigan's history speaks for itself.  There is no need to argue with anyone.   

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra

                         

May 25th, 2011 at 5:08 PM | Keep in mind we were also (Score:2 Normal)
UMxWolverines
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Keep in mind we were also screwed in 1974 with the home cooking of tsio When we were undefeated and also in 1989 when we were driving for the winning touchdown against usc and there was a phantom holding.

"Ohio is like a giant turd that Michigan just can't pinch off"

May 25th, 2011 at 5:31 PM | We didn't have much of a chance of winning a NC in 1989 (Score:2)
Don
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Miami went into the bowl games ranked #2, with ND close behind. However, they beat ND convincingly late in November, and ND beat us early in the season, so we were regarded as definitely one step behind those two teams. We would have needed a convincing win against a #12 USC team in combination with losses by both Miami and ND to get there, an unlikely occurrence. But you are 100% correct in getting screwed by the refs in both that Rose Bowl and in the 1974 game against OSU. Lantry's field goal was good. He just kicked it too damn high, and they didn't use instant replay back then.

That game still hurts, because it was the third year in a row we had only one or fewer losses during the season and still didn't go to a bowl game, thanks to the criminally stupid policy of the Big Ten back then to send only one team to a bowl game. If the conference had allowed conference teams to play in the Orange or Sugar or Cotton Bowls, Bo wouldn't have had to wait until 1/1/1981 for his first bowl victory, because the '70 or '72 or '73 or '74 teams would have beaten the crap out of some SWC or SEC team. We matched up much better with teams from those conferences than we did the PAC 10 teams, unfortunately.


May 25th, 2011 at 5:16 PM | Claiming UM NCs in '85, '64, and '73 is ridiculous (Score:3 Insightful)
Don
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The only NCs that matter are the ones determined by the AP and UPI back in the polls and bowls era, and the BCS since then. All those other championships awarded by those minor polling outfits that nobody has ever heard of are simply irrelevant. Trying to increase our number of NCs that way is embarrassing. We don't need to apologize for what we've got legitimately.

 


May 25th, 2011 at 5:21 PM | Its obvious no one in the Big (Score:1 Normal)
TexanGOBLUE
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Its obvious no one in the Big Ten can touch us statistically or historically. Our numbers against everyone else in the big ten in all aspects is by far superior. RECOGNIZE! GO BLUE

'Try growing up in Texas a Michigan WOLVERINE'. Follow me on Twitter: RudygoBLUE

May 25th, 2011 at 5:28 PM | data from college football data warehouse (Score:2 Interesting)
oriental andrew
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Discussion on what they count as a "recognized national championship"

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/national_cha...

michigan state national championships (claimed and recongized):

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/nchamps_team...

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/bigten/michigan_state/all_na...

Michigan's national championships:

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/nchamps_team...

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/bigten/michigan/all_national...

Note in that last link that if we counted every team some random guy or organization called a national champion, Michigan would have 21 national championship teams, including 1964, 1973, 1976, 1980, and 1985 (because we topped the ARGH Power Ratings in '85, you know).  

 

For my privacy, my new username is "non-Oriental non-Andrew"
 

May 25th, 2011 at 6:02 PM | Lol at the one from 1978 when (Score:2 Normal)
UMxWolverines
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Lol at the one from 1978 when they went 8-3

"Ohio is like a giant turd that Michigan just can't pinch off"

May 25th, 2011 at 10:49 PM | LOL (Score:2)
The Barwis Effect
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They actually claim that one on their wiki page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Michigan_State_Spartans_championshi...

"[T]here were a lot of people predicting glorious heights for Rich; mostly the same people who are predicting doom and gloom [for Hoke]. Excuse me if I doubt their prognostication skills." -- M-Wolverine

May 25th, 2011 at 5:47 PM | Oddly enough I recently had (Score:2 Insightful)
jethro34
Joined: 01/28/2011
MGoPoints: 417

Oddly enough I recently had this argument with a friend and until he brought up the 6 NCs thing I honestly had no idea they claimed that many.

My primary response was "I would be embarrassed to be such a die-hard fan of a school so desperate for attention that they put a ring of fame in their stadium citing fake championships from organizations that haven't existed in decades".

His argument was that football didn't count until they started wearing helmets.  Wow.  Inspiring work sparty (I refuse to use an upper-case s)

May 25th, 2011 at 6:46 PM | Damn it, I hate little bro so much (Score:2)
bluewave720
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What they have done in the last 15 years or so in hoops is what we've done for over 130 years in football, so no, your basketball program is not like our football program.  You are nouveau riche in the NCAA historical sense.   You only have 2 NTs in hoops and you are currently enjoying your legacy coach.  He will retire at some point, or his head will explode when trying to decide whether or not to go to the NBA.  Remember, transitions are never easy.

Lastly, when you lose multiple games per season by 30+ points, you don't get any bragging rights in re: to national relevancy.  If you think you do, you are arguing your own inferiority.

"Coach, if you need one yard, I'll get you three yards. If you need five yards, I'll get you three yards." -Leroy Hoard

May 25th, 2011 at 7:11 PM | 3 of MSU's titles are (Score:1)
bluetell
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3 of MSU's titles are basically made up. I can't believe their AD actually claims those 3 titles and put them in their stadium.

Rudy watches inspirational movies about Shawn Hunwick

 

May 26th, 2011 at 1:21 AM | Some of Alabama's (Score:1)
RickH
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Some of Alabama's championships are a fucking joke.  I believe in one season, they were like 8-3 or something and claim the damn championship.  A bunch of teams claim championships before their bowl game (a whole bunch of 'national championship' teams lost those bowl games).  I personally hate the whole claimed championships thing because Michigan could claim a shitload more but don't because we take a more 'honorable' approach while teams like Michigan State and Alabama claim so pretty nonsensical NCs.

May 26th, 2011 at 7:43 AM | Here's what (Score:2 Normal)
ImHungover
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the NCAA recognizes. Done deal.

http://www.ncaa.com/history/football/fbs

 

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