More from my evil colleague Jack. I apologize for not having killed him yet.
"Cheering For Cheaters" column on OSU-M game
There's this from the fall:
And a small slag in here:
OSU should be glad in a sense that their perfect season is protected by the bowl ban. I suppose I could see them beating ND, but OSU is not one of the best five teams in the country in my estimation. I think they would be smoked by Alabama, for example.
Projections suck, though. Many teams probably would be smoked by Bama, but then many factors go into who wins each game. Bama probably beats A&M 70% of the time but we know what happened there. Until two teams actually play you can never really say for certain who "would" win, because depending on a number of factors, either team "could" win.
'Bama played A&M at home the week after a hard fought road win against LSU. Given 4-5 weeks to prepare and focus, my money is on the Crimson Tide, whoever they meet in their bowl.
The article sickens me. Show a little humbleness and then at the end revert to winning is everything. No matter if its without integrity.
If I grew up watching Bo kick Ohio States ass and then POOF it was all taken away from scandal and threw a dark cloud over the program in terms of moral integrity then I'd hate him. Because I'd never EVER have a conversation about anything we did ever again without CHEATER getting brought up.
The fact that they homered that slimy bastard a year after he was caught and disgraced the program is insane. It fits them well. No matter what anyone says.
If Michigan ever reaches the mountain top again and wins a national title in the future I will take great pride that they did it the right way.
Who else can say that??
I agree, EZMIKEP, and that is exactly why I take Chris Webber to task every time he is mentioned here. Even when things suck at Michigan, we have always been able to say that we cheer for a team that does things right: at least until Webber arrived.
But I would still like to see paying players made legal so Michigan can compete on an even playing field with teams that chronically cheat and refuse to stop, even while on probation.
Honest question: Do you believe that the NCAA changing the rules to provide a monetary stipend for college athletes would prevent rogue teams from providing additional benefits on top of the allowed stipend to their players? I don't.
Nothing would really change except that the players would now get their legally sanctioned pay plus their improper benefits and the teams that are willing to provide those extra benefits would still enjoy a recruiting advantage over the teams that do not.
I need another post. FUCK THEM.
An Ohio State fan is disgusted with Tressel, then sees him being honored, still can't help but like the guy.
This post is being used as an excuse for us to check out this guy's web site.
I guess I wouldn't mind so much if the article didn't feel like amateur hour.
We have like 150 employees.
Haha, you troll. Columbus sucks. Each and every day I survive it, only to get nutchecked harder and harder. And as the painful days wear on, I thank you for nothing; from your article to shitty excuse for a city.
I can't wait until Ohio gets caught again. The NCAA will no longer be able to turn a blind eye to anymore rules infractions. I would be very concerned if I was a Ohio fan with Urban Meyers as coach.
....it might be a while.
This story started out o.k and then went to shit REAL fast. F* you Gene Smith, F* you Jim Tressel, and most importantly, F* the whole state of Ohio and their truly shitty ass fan base. May that dark cloud loom over your shit hole of a university!! Cheaters!!!
Wait wait I'm confused. What does F* mean?
called 'F-star'. It's given out to any OSU student athlete that will give their teacher sports equipment/memorabilia, and transitions an otherwise GPA-counted failing grade into a pass on a pass-fail scale.
Ohio State fans and the Joe Paterno followers at Penn State are in a league of their own. Never have I seen people not "get it" and celebrate the people who knew full well what they were doing (or weren't doing) was wrong.
Let's not compare the two. There's wrong, and then there's rape children for a decade wrong. That's all I'll say on that.
With all due respect, I wish you'd never say anything else on this blog ever again. It would be a better place.
I said with all do respect, so you can't take offense to my comment.
You are right that he can't be mad. It's in the Geneva Convention
I appreciate your insights.
There is exploitation of kids for your own self gratification/aggrandizement/personal benefit and then there is child rape. I kind of hate both of them, but definitely hate the folks covering up the child rapist more. That said, having the stones to walk out on the field along with the same kids you stole the opportunity to play for a national championship from....brass man...classless brass. He should have personally apologized to each of those seniors and he had no business being on that field or near that stadium. Maybe in ten years, ala the Fab 5, but not the year after and not in front of kids that don't realize how bad he screwed them. Shamefully unethical behavior and obvious that instead of repairing a flawed culture around that program history will eventually repeat itself there. At least, PSU took down the statute of Joe Pa.
I think you missed my point. I'm not comparing the wrong doings of Joe Paterno and Jim Tressel. I'm saying that large groups of people in both fan bases believe(d) that Tressel and Paterno did no wrong.
They both did wrong. But the spectrum is so wide that it's like comparing a loiter to a murderer.
He is speaking to the reactions and viewpoints of the respective fan bases.
does a U-turn and expects the reader to respect him. Guess his brain works a little bit different from mine. Tressel on the shoulders of his old team in front of 100,000 adoring fans that just got f'd over by him was one of the most numbingly distasteful moments of mass stupid in any sector of American life that I can remember. When people begin to glory in immorality we've got problems.
And blaming Gene Smith INSTEAD of Tressel? Really? There's a reason you have to be smarter to get into UM.
I understand the Michigan perspective, I really do. But implying the entire 10 year Tressel reign was dirty because of his final year is silliness. It's possible it was dirty, but, and hear me out, it's possible it wasn't too. The NCAA conducted investigations multiple times since 2002 over smoke, and as far as they're concerned, the only thing Ohio State did in that timeframe that was punishable toward the entire institution (not just one player acting out) was Tressel (who was fired) lying about his players eligibility for only the 2010 season. That's it. I know Michigan fans feel better assuming we cheated the entire time and 9-1 is just a fake number but really, ask yourselves, if the NCAA found X happened after an investigation at Oklahoma, would all of you assume Y happened just because? Or do you only think that because we are Ohio State? That doesn't mean Tressel wasn't a cheater for 2010--he was, but it also doesn't mean he cheated from 2001-2009, because the NCAA found no evidence to that point.
and the lying on top of it. People don't become wildly curious about how virtuous you were the rest of your life when you make clear you are a bum. No one gives a crap whether he was OTHERWISE clean or not, especially when he made a big shuck out of his godly virtue. Too many of that kind of lizard around to begin with.
And I don't disagree with that. He's forever a cheater because of one instance. I agree with this comment, but that doesn't mean he cheated before that instant. Is it probable? Sure, where there's a particular behavior, there's probably similar history foreshadowing it, but that's all conjecture.
I know it's fashionable to make that point, but consider a case where a spouse has been caught cheating and insists, "I have never done something like this before, I swear!" If you're the philanderer's wife or husband, do you believe the line? You might, but what if other people stepped forward and said that they, too, had been with your spouse? What if you had found suspicious credit card receipts, emails, texts, phone calls, etc. Would you still believe it? You might not have DNA evidence beyond the shadow of a doubt, but the circumstantial evidence would still make a pretty strong case.
Tressel didn't cover either of those up and both players were punished. You're proving my point...
Sort of this. It's more a knock on the fan base, since the majority of Ohio fans still defend Tressel's involvement in anything...vehemently. Frankly, I'm one to believe that Tressel allowed more wrongdoings behind closed doors more than the contrary, due to his direct lack of accountability and overall surreptitiousness. The fanbase reveres this kind of character, though; referencing the 9-1 record against Michigan as Tressel's primary, notable accolade.
Not seeing the significant ways Ohio could've gained an competitive advantage throughout all those years (even committing "mishaps") is naive/obtuse. It's certainly making the "means" justifiable, and it's bullshit.
Same thing for "THE" OSU, it's not. Because of your undeserving self-sense of entitlement or "achievement", you are considered to be "Ohio". That is all.
It's just the University's name, man. I suppose someone could make the argument that Michigan felt all sorts of entitlement and vanity when they put wings on their helmets, because they were better than just "plain" leather. I mean, I wouldn't say that, because it's insane, but it's all perspective. Calling it "The" is harmless.
Not saying you, in particular, but make sure the majority of OSU fans don't feel the need to inform me every time I say, "OSU" or "Ohio State University", to add "THE". Just like that, too. "THE". And I wouldn't have brought up the helmets, either. Completely different discussion and not too supportable in this case (fans).
The refers to university, so any university of a state (eg. The University of Rhode Island) needs the article. "University of Rhode Island admits 4,000 students every year." The, when placed in front of a university that also includes State in its title is at best cumbersome. "Rhode Island State University admits 4,000 students every year." Or, "The Rhode Island State University admits 4,000 students every year." The first sentence is better in all regards, and the second is both cumbersome and probably incorrect because the definite article implies that Rhode Island State is the only state university in Rhode Island since the article is seperated from what it would normally designate.
Or, your university was named by a Slavic immigrant with imperfect English skills, as that's a common mistake of Slavic language speakers in English because the major Slavic languages don't use articles. Russians will slap articles randomly and to great comedic effect.
good record against the old arch-rival. Sigh.
Looks like I was right in my previous comment. It would definitely be better if you weren't making comments. With all due respect of course.
He offerred an opposing viewpoint on the matter we probably wouldn't otherwise see. I don't see a single problem with either one of his posts, they aren't offensive or meant to stir up issues.
I might be alone here, but I enjoy hearing what fans of other teams have to say. Even the Buckeyes.
what if he is sypying on our board and sharing our info with Bucknuts and the football team.
The NCAA investigated those claims and found nothing to support what he was saying. Should we start sanctioning programs based solely on accusations by disgruntled former players now?
Your two best coaches ever both turned out to be unceremoniously fired for doing despicable things meant to serve only themselves and their team, without any sense of good sportsmanship. Yet here you are diverting on other issues and defending your rancid athletic department.
I remember OJ Simpson doing some great things at USC. How would you and the rest of the nation feel if USC brougth him back and gave him standing ovations for his past contributions to USC?
That is a more extreme example of precisely how pathetic it was to watch you and yours honor a man who intentionally committed serious violations to give Ohio a sporting edge. It wasn't a "mistake" as Smith and Tressel and everyone claims it was. It was premeditated, and done intentionally. The man was dishonorable, lacked character, and ignored the fairness due all other coaches and teams he played against. None of that mattered to him. Yet there he was, being raised on shoulders for wild admiration. Disgusting. The picture perfect example as to what separates a MIchigan Man from that cesspool down South.
I assure you, if LLoyd Carr had cheated as Tressel did, there isn't even the chance he'd ever receive such a reception from UM fans, who would remain embarrassed of him forever, no matter what he ever did for us on the field.
Enjoy your 12-0 season having played no one, including a dysfunctional Michigan team bare of much talent across both sides of the ball, no offensive line and running backs. Good luck in your bowl game. Oops.
I found your closing paragraph particularly enjoyable, let's try this out:
"Enjoy your 2011 win over the worst OSU team since the 1900s, and your first win since 2003. It sure was impressive!"
Do you see how dumb that sounds?
And, btw, I wasn't cheering Tressel's return, I though it was incredibly awkward and inappropriate, so there.
I don't trust any NCAA investigation farther than I can spit. I'd like you to tell me with a straight face that YOU don't think that OSU knew Clarett was dirty.
And OJ didn't do it.
I think it is safe to say when such an egregious violation is found, the likelihood of other violations materially increases. Its not determinative, but instructive no?
For me, Tressel (author of a fine principled/virtuous leader book) is kind of like the well-followed Congressman or super-church leader who rails against Gay marriage and immorality and accidentally ends up highway rest stop knocking on the stall of the boy next door Great coach, but because of his hypocrisy and its impacts on innocent kids, a morally repugnant man who should not be lauded .
That makes no sense. Why cheat for just 2010? Was there something remarkable that year? C'mon. Seriously? 2010 is where they got Caught. There's been shadiness going on at Ohio since the Clarrett days- easily!
12-0* is better than 6-7, right?
Even though that 12 has absolutely 0 meaning to the world other than you went through your typical cakewalk OOC, Got 2-3 games handed to you by blown officiating (ex: MSU, Wisconsin, Purdue) and still it means nothing except to Ohioans.
I welcome the rivalry back next year, where both teams have something to play for, no "not going bowling" or "Denard's down" stuff. 2013 will prove o be the beginning of the true renewed 10-year war
You're dumb. You realize the OSU OOC schedule is typically very strong right? Since '00 we've played home and homes with ranked (highly usually) UCLA, USC, Texas, Washington, Washington State, and Miami teams? And when the Cal game was scheduled in the early 00s, they were actually good?
And the refs? Really? How did the refs blow the Purdue or Wisconsin games? They made a bad (and totally justifiable) call in the MSU game, and it had a lot less to do with the outcome than Maxwell's noodle arm did.
Protip: 12-0 meant a lot more than 8-4.
Actually it doesn't, because our record gets us another game to play while yours nets nothing. Unless you like collecting asterisks, I suppose.
If you'd rather be 8-4 with a second tier bowl game and a loss to OSU than 12-0, you're lying. And there is no asterisk.
It's "why wasn't that 13-0, or 14-0?" Well, because we were cheaters and didn't get to play in the post season. You'll be the only 12-0 team to not even be it's conference champion. So the question is, would I rather be 8-4 in a second tier bowl, or 12-0 and widely known as one of the most corrupt, dirty programs in the country with nothing to show for it but a Delaney made up "division championship"? Then yeah, I'll take 8-4. But continue to prove what is wrong with the Ohio State Program and the fans that promote it.
Can someone please embed a link to that last post in the masthead of MGoBlog?
Had a long list of items last year. Brian referenced and linked to it. Which one I can't remember either. But shouldn't be to hard to find if someone really wants to know. Or they can stand up and take credit.
Not disputing any of these facts, however a few points:
1) The arrests are irrelvant and have nothing to do with anything related to cheating, they're just filler in the "Ha, your program sucks!" sense.
2) The instances of "voilations" here don't involve Tressel, rather boosters/program outsiders.
The crux of my point was that Tressel fucked up 2010 by lying, but it's very possible he didn't engage in any coverups from 2001-2009. Players do stupid shit, they're punished, it's not necessarily Tress's fault.
Here is another point: Tressel cheated at Youngstown State and tell me, why did AJ Hawk have $3k in his apartment?
Idk, because money buys stuff? If his name was Brian Hawk would it be weird? Why do you have money at your appartment? Could it have been from $100 handshakes? Sure, could it have not been? Also yes.
Yes, but only because he's probably related to AJ Hawk
and Barry Bonds never tested positive for steroids so I guess he never shot up.
[generic, unrelated, irrelevant example with a weak correlation as a counterpoint]
click your heels and say three times "Tress never cheated, well just the one time he got caught" and stick your head back into the sand.
As long as I can borrow some of your tinfoil to keep the sand out of my ears.
Because AJ Hawk is an incredibly weird person who doesn't trust banks. Hawk's dad is a senior VP at LexisNexis. He doesn't need cash from boosters.
EDIT: After googling it, Hawk had gotten his scholarship check the week before. Apparently he prefers to cash checks rather than depositing them. http://z12.invisionfree.com/Buckeye_Commentary/ar/t78.htm
Hey, do you remember that time when Tressel suspended your starting QB before a BCS bowl? He really taught that guy a lesson.
comparable situation is Pete Carroll's USC. Got caught for one thing, but everyone and their mother is pretty sure there was more to it for the entire duration of his tenure (at least).
Also: Al Capone got busted for tax evasion, but does anyone think his criminal activity ended there? Not sayin, just sayin.
...NCAA infractions, obstructing NCAA investigations and celebrating cheating:
Gene Smith and Gordon Gee would be out of their jobs if they held their respective positions at Michigan.
You realize that the U.S. government filed an amicus brief supporting OSU's interpretation of FERPA, right?
Right buddy, and everyone has the right to plead the 5th when they're guilty. The fact that your cesspool university exercised its right to student privacy instead of being open to potentially clear its name is all the proof anyone needs that there was plenty of stuff they didn't want shown. But please, continue. You're about as straight a shooter as Gene Smith. Spin everything as long as it ends up looking Scarlet and Grey.
Yeah, because what's the deal with student's rights? Precedent matters sometimes.
I did not realize that, but I do not really care what the federal government's position was. Do the courts take the same position as the U.S. government every time it files an amicus brief in a case? I could go on Westlaw and check that out, but my guess is that the answer is no.
Your stronger argument would have been that the court ruled in your favor.
Regardless, even if I concede this point, your school is still # 1 in infractions.
That's true, but based on past experience, all that pointing out the Ohio Supreme Court decision would have gotten is an "They had to rule in Ohio State's favor or they wouldn't get re-elected" or something along those lines.
I think it's all too easy to dismiss the article saying 'what a douche, he's a brainwashed idiot just like all the rest of their loser fans.' While I don't think it was the best piece of writing ever, I think it does make an interesting point.
Let's reverse roles for just a second and assume that it was Lloyd Carr who was found to be a rampant cheater and was forced out. How would you feel about Michigan? Would you have mixed emotions? Would you abandon the program? When you see Lloyd on television later, would you revile him or remember him for the 1997 team? I think he has an interesting perspective and I can't really say I'd feel different. I really don't know how I would feel to be honest.
"I don't care how many times my kid fucks up, he's still my kid." -somebody I agree with. It's hard.
Steve Fisher. Won a national championship, recruited a bunch of fabulous players and then violations were discovered. But we don't act like he's a hero! Even now, 15 years later, people are conflicted about honoring the team and the Coach.
Jim T. did a great job coaching football. That's not the question. It's just that the fans and the University, I think, should at least give the illusion that the violations meant something! Why couldn't they honor the 2002 team in 2017? Why now?
Come on, the whole thing was absurd.... And I can honestly say I don't think we would have done the same thing Ohio did.
Don't take this to mean I think their celebration of Tressel during the game was reasonable. It wasn't. I just agree with the idea that I would have mixed emotions about a guy / thing that meant so much and broke rules that way. But please don't try and argue that Steve Fisher means to the UM fan base what Tressel does/did to the OSU fanbase, that's disingenuous.
Ohio is being punished and doing their time. I'm fine with that. But to then parade the guy into your stadium and celebrate him like he's some hero less than one year later, while you are still suffering from repurcussions, is just the strangest thing I have ever seen! It's just so awkward. The guy who replaced him was demoted, the new guy (who left his old team for "health reasons") on the sideline, no Big Ten title game, no Bowl, and the fans are freakin' cheering him like they have no memory of anything. Weird. I was sort of waiting for Terrell Pryor to walk out.
That article seems like a pretty accurate portrait of Ohio fandom in general.
Cognitive dissonance or cognitive impairment?
Discuss amongst yourselves
Also, the bitterness on marking my posts as trolling, when they all engage in respectful discussion about a football rivalry, and don't troll anything, is hilarious. Grow up.
No neg from me for discussing MGoPoints, but complaining about it isn't going to make anything better and will in fact make people want to neg you more. I suggest just taking your lumps and rolling with it, especially since moderation doesn't count for MGoPoints anyway. I personally think that you're a pretty respectful and valuable contributor to this board, and would like to see you continue to post.
Also, someone please neg me for discussing MGoPoints myself. Kthx
I appreciate that. There's some wack jobs here who act exactly like the "Ohio" fan stereotype they make fun of because they have a keyboard.
And it was more an observation, less of a complaint, I know it comes with the territory.
"dumb" and then called others "wack jobs". That might be it. Or, people may be downvoting you because you have been mean to them in the past. That could be it too. Or, maybe because this is a Michigan fan site, and, reasonable or not, some like to interact with only Michigan fans? Many options for you to consider. Sorry your feelings were hurt over being downvoted, though.
Protip: 12-0 meant a lot more than 8-4.
First and foremost, this article does nothing but reinforce the poor perception I have for the Ohio fan base. I was hoping the author would take this opportunity to restore some dignity to the program by denouncing the classless celebration of a cheat and a lier. Instead you try to rationalize the celebration of Tressel and your shame of a 2002 title. Then to disrespect THE GAME by propping up that hypocrite onto the shoulders of his former players while all buckeyes in attendance screamed their faces off with glee at the man who is directly responsible for the probationary undefeated season and your lack of a chance to play for a Big Ten Title and National Championship. The 2002 Title you were so happy to reminisce about should have been vacated along with all games played by your former hero Clarrett and Pryor. If Clarrett didn't have such a poor reputation because of his many crimes committed after being kicked off the team, he would have had the credibility to support his numerous allegations of cheating during his one year with the program. In a weird way it seems fitting that most Ohio fans would try to rationalize their penalties instead of owning up to them and taking their punishment with integrity. But who am I kidding this is the same program that covered up their infractions, lied to gain a competitive advantage and publicly lobbied to play ineligible players during last years big money BCS bowl game. Frankly I'm starting to seriously doubt the legitimacy of our beloved rivalry, The Ohio State University doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same breathe as the finest Public Institution in the World! I'm not saying the University of Michigan is perfect but when we make a mistake we own up to it, self impose penalties tougher than most and accept our punishment with dignity because our Integrity will always be more important that any win, championship or amount of revenue.
U of M Engineering Grad 2003
I never liked Tressel, but I personally think the whole thing was overblown by the media. Let's be real, it wasn't like he was paying players out of his own pocket to come to OSU. They sold some stuff that belonged to them (wasn't even an NCAA rule until like 2005) and a lawyer (who happened to be friends with Tressel) tipped him off that players were hanging out with a shady tattoo parlor owner who was drug running.
If I'm Tressel, I'm probably thinking to myself, "holy shit, my players are going to get caught up in a federal drug trafficking investigation."
I seriously doubt his first thought was about NCAA violations. He was definitely a "players" coach and tried to be a father type figure. If it was Nick Saban, Ann Frank wouldn't have gotten past the words "Dear Diary."
The media tried to play it out like Tressel was told explicitly of NCAA violations and then plotted to keep it secret. That's not really what happened at all. The e-mails (and I actually read them) focused more on the Tat parlor owner and what a scumbag he was (murder investigations, drugs, etc) and then threw in the fact the guy had OSU memorabilia in his store and players were often seen hanging out there.
Tressel tried to handle it himself instead of involving who he should have, but the lawyer also told him to keep the info confidential...which I'm sure conflicted Tressel somewhat because the lawyer could get in trouble (which he did anyway).
Did Tressel screw up? Yep. Can I honestly say I would have done it different than him? Probably not. His first instinct was to protect his players and that was his downfall. Totally against NCAA rules, but I don't see him as some kind of "evil" person like many do.