Check out the Michigan Depth Chart from just 8 games ago...
Yes, that would be the OSU game from last year. This is the official Depth Chart found in the Game Program. I just came across it and found it interesting/depressing.
DE Graham, Heiniger, Patterson
DT Van Bergen, Banks
NT Martin, Campbell
OLB Roh, Herron, Watson
MLB Ezeh, Fitzgerald, Demens
WLB Mouton, Leach, B. Smith
SLB S. Brown, Simmons, M. Jones
LCB Warren, T. Jones, Turner
RCB Woolfolk, Floyd
SS Kovacs, Van Slyke
FS Williams, Emilien
Almost everything from SLB on down is one big scratch out. And this isn't ancient history. This is EIGHT GAMES AGO.
Sheesh.
October 19th, 2010 at 4:41 PM ^
Great post. Had not focused on that. Slightly off topic, how good is Heiniger? He comes back next year too for good size on the DL? Any reports on how he was doing before he blew out his knee?
October 19th, 2010 at 5:07 PM ^
Is he in school? Anyone have contact with him, does he plan on coming back?
He's on the roster, I know they liked him and didn't want to see him go down. Be awful nice to have an upperclassman come back, for depth if nothing else.
October 19th, 2010 at 6:32 PM ^
I know from a reliable source that he is planning on returning for his 5th year. Even better news is that his recovery is going very well and he is optimistic that he can contribute THIS season, perhaps as early as Penn State or Illinois.
While he might not be the physical freak that BG was, he's a smart kid (2-time academic All Big Ten if I'm not mistaken) and might be a solution to our "gap problems" than Van Bergen has been talking about with our run defense.
October 19th, 2010 at 4:45 PM ^
Almost everything from SLB on down is one big scratch out.
Which makes me wonder why everyone is down on Tony Gibson all of a sudden. The one and only player he has with any experience (Floyd) is much improved this season.
Also, I think RR quietly made a good hire in Adam Braithwaite (who coaches the spurs/bandits). He's gotten a lot of production out of a sophomore ex-walk on (Kovacs) and a pair of freshmen (T. Gordon/Johnson)
October 19th, 2010 at 4:47 PM ^
Plus Braithwaite seems to be quite a recruiter, a lot of kids seem to mention him these days as someone they talk to a lot.
October 19th, 2010 at 4:54 PM ^
mean, I'm sitting here all unemployed and what-not, and it gives me that quantum of a scintilla of an iota of satisfaction to call for SOMEBODY'S head. Oh, wait, we're talking football here. . .
October 19th, 2010 at 5:23 PM ^
1. The DBs haven't shown much improvement the last few years, not just this year. Maybe it's just the players, but none of them seem to know anything about angles.
2. There were some rumblings that Emilien and Turner left because they didn't feel they were learning anything from him. I don't know how true that is, but things are starting to add up.
3. He is the special teams coordinator.
I don't know if he is or is not responsible for the poor play by our safeties and corners, but if he is, he needs to be let go or moved so that those young guys can develop as quickly as possible. Anyway, those are the reasons that I think he should/would be let go.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:34 PM ^
1. Gibson has a lot of experience coaching DBs. He held the same position at WVU and did very well. He groomed Pacman Jones into a star, and turned Ryan Mundy from a complete liability into a qualify safety in one season. In 2008, he coached only safeties; Shafer had the corners. Last year, I thought he did fine with Warren and Woolfolk at corner. FS was a problem, but when your options there are Mike Williams or a freshman walk-on, you're not likely to do well.
2. Any grumblings by outgoing players have to be taken with a grain of salt. We have no way of knowing what the problem was with those guys.
3. He was also the ST coordinator last year, and for some reason no one criticized him then. And right now, it's really just the kickers (on kickoffs and field goals) that are the problem. Hagerup has rounded into form, Gallon is coming around as a returner, and our coverage units are excellent. Fans have a tendency to zero in on the negative aspects of STs and ignore the positives. OSU and Wisconsin have each given up multiple TDs on returns; we haven't given up one past midfield.
BTW, Gibson was also the recruiter of a certain kid named Denard Robinson.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:39 PM ^
I think Gallon overall is coming around as a returner as well; but, I liked what I saw him from against Iowa as a receiver. I know he only had 2 catches, but I still liked to see some progress there. He and Hopkins really made an impression in that game (IMO)
October 19th, 2010 at 5:44 PM ^
Like I said, I don't really know what goes on with a lot of that. You asked why so many people are calling for him to get let go and those are the reasons that I came up with off the top of my head.
I think if it came down to it and RR was told that he needed to make some changes, that Gibson seems like the weak link, but I don't think RR would fire him because they have been together so long.
October 19th, 2010 at 6:43 PM ^
October 19th, 2010 at 7:04 PM ^
improvement:
JT Floyd;
Thomas Gordon;
Mike Martin;
Kenny Demens;
Jonas Mouton;
Greg Banks;
Sagesse is probably about the same as is Patterson but apart from Sagesse didnt really see much of them last year;
Roh is better overall, although his usage is a bit different, and suboptimal
Rest are positiion switchers or freshmen
October 19th, 2010 at 7:40 PM ^
You realize in the defensive back two deep there are 5 freshmen and 2 sophomores right? That is 7 out of 8 defensive backs that are freshmen or sophomores. Yeah, I can' believe he can't coach up young guys in their first or second year playing college football. Name some db's who have not improved please. I know, Woolfolk looked much worse this year. He didn't improve at all.
October 20th, 2010 at 8:51 AM ^
How can a true freshman show improvement over the previous year?!
October 19th, 2010 at 5:34 PM ^
[EDIT: you know, I don't even want to publish rumors so I'm just deleting this portion, it's referenced elsewhere anyway]
As a separate issue, he's also the Special Teams Coordinator, so that might be an unrelated reason for some criticism, though how much is actually his responsibility seems to be up in the air (see thread "Blame Rodriguez for Special Teams Play" thread below.....actually, don't).
October 19th, 2010 at 4:45 PM ^
em0?
But on a serious note, that attrition at least to me seems crazy. Hopefully the players we signed more recently are more willing to stick around then some of our others.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:02 PM ^
IMO, Warren and Woolfolk are the biggest hits and either of them could have been on the team this year if it weren't for A) a stupid NFL draft board advisor and B) an ankle injury.
Pointless to speculate how much better the defense would be if they were playing, but this list is revealing to those (mostly the MSM) wondering why the secondary is so bad.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:09 PM ^
It is silly to speculate/dream, but Warren back and Woolfolk sans injury? The CB position could actually have been a strength of the defense.
October 19th, 2010 at 4:47 PM ^
You didn't even include the saddest cross-out of all:
Space Emperor of Space
October 19th, 2010 at 5:07 PM ^
If the last two weeks are any indication, Hagerup may be worthy of that title, too.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:11 PM ^
Let's not go overboard. He may be a Space Prince, but he's got a ways to go before he hits Space Emperor status. Would he settle for a Galactic Emperor title?
October 19th, 2010 at 11:01 PM ^
Space Protege of Space
October 19th, 2010 at 5:12 PM ^
that we used to refer to as PK.
October 19th, 2010 at 4:49 PM ^
This is just what the doctor ordered for people getting too hard/down on the defense. Its tough to compete with the "big dogs" with such a depleted secondary and starting with an average (?) linebacker corps. It really can only get better, or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:00 PM ^
It will get better. Next year, we will have a ton of experience in the secondary and look like a pretty decent defense, IME.
At least I guess I agree with you. That's all I can keep telling myself without crying myself to sleep at night.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:19 PM ^
If you were forced to choose, would you rather have the excitement of this year's offense (prior to the interception-fest) or the 2006 defense? For pure entertainment purposes, I think I chose this offense. So there's that!
October 19th, 2010 at 6:27 PM ^
I would go with the 2006 defense. A good defense will keep you in every game. A good offense can sputter. Also, I loved the feeling that when other teams had the ball, you knew it was coming back to us in only a few plays. None of these sustained 8 minutes drives against us.
October 19th, 2010 at 6:50 PM ^
A good defense will keep you in every game. A good offense can sputter.
Clichés are fun. Did the '06 D keep us in the games against OSU and USC?
October 20th, 2010 at 10:53 PM ^
That is a very simple and direct sentiment that also happens to be about the most intelligent thing I've read on mgoblog in nary a long time. Nobody...ain't NOBODY wants to play a bad-ass defense.
October 19th, 2010 at 4:59 PM ^
Ive been preaching this very thing to everyone i work with who tells me how bad our D is. I know it is but and this is major part of it...
October 19th, 2010 at 5:20 PM ^
Nice find and a good post. If you simply bring back Warren and Wolfolk stays healthy, this defense would be worlds better.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:26 PM ^
He would be physically able to play DB in an emergency even though he's a RB now. Of the other 11 scratchouts, only Graham and Brown used up their eligibility.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:27 PM ^
The theme of the week for our defensive issues is experience. 4 and 5 star CB's out of HS will be nice to have for playing time in 2012 and 2013 but not in 2011. Makes the case to find a JUCO player that can get into the two deep rotation and give our secondary more depth with a more experienced player or two if possible.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:39 PM ^
It's difficult for Jucos to get their credits to transfer here. Our football program has taken only two in the past 20 years (and our basketball program one - a kid who flunked out a year later).
But anyway, that may not be necessary. Next year we'll have a lot of corners with game experience: Woolfolk, Floyd, Avery, Talbot and Christian. Competition for the two spots should be good. We might even be able to move Woolfolk back to FS.
October 19th, 2010 at 11:04 PM ^
..... since you don't really take into account the depth of youth in our secondary currently. A JUCO coming in will be only SLIGHTLY better prepared to play right away than your typical 3-4 star HS DB. Our secondary two-deep is riddled with true freshmen, and given the typical gains made by most players between their first and second years, our secondary should be just fine for next year. What's more, we will be re-adding a hopefully healthy Woolfolk that should make the secondary much, much better than it was this year.
Another point building upon the above is that when you bring in JUCOs, you limit the number of scholarships for incoming freshmen, and therefore, limit the depth you can build. You tie your depthchart up into a couple of years worth of players instead of spreading them out, and you end up having roller coaster years of play on the defense.
The only exception that I would make to the above is that Moore(?) kid who had previously committed to USC in 2009. As a higher rated player coming out of HS, his athleticism was more than likely much higher than your typical JUCO player and should be able to come in and make an impact right away. Other than him, or anyone in a similar position(i.e. highly rated players who turned to JUCO for some reason or another), I would say no.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:57 PM ^
Sobering stuff
And shows why we need patience with this team. Its like what happened to our Oline in the 2008 offseason. One big explosion to an entire depth chart at a positional unit.
October 19th, 2010 at 5:58 PM ^
Here's the question - what happened with Turner and Vlad (and to a much lesser extent Warren)? Did the coaching staff play any role in that? Could they have done anything to keep those guys around at least for this season and give them a shot?
I'm personally of the opinion that Vlad is not going to work out at FS. I think his knee injury has messed him up too much for that and he was probably behind Vinopal for a reason.
But Turner? Could be be slower or stiffer than Rogers? Could he be more lost than Christian? He had to have a shot at obvious playing time, with or without Woolfolk. Maybe he was fat and lazy to some extent as rumored, but couldn't they have kept him around somehow?
Maybe the coaches tried to keep these guys and there was no way of convincing them to stay. But if the coaches helped shove them out the door, then they're part of the problem. I don't defend Carr much anymore, but I feel like he would have talked those guys into staying this year and seeing how it played out.
I cringe whenever I think of the SIX DBs who had eligibility who aren't on the team now (Warren, Woolfolk, Turner, Dorsey, Cissoko, Vlad). If you want to add Brandon Smith or Van Slyke to that list and get more depressed, feel free!
October 19th, 2010 at 6:11 PM ^
October 19th, 2010 at 6:31 PM ^
Well, on Cissoko and Dorsey, I don't think that you can put it on the coaching staff. Cissoko had some form of a breakdown and Dorsey couldn't get in to the school. Not much the coaches could have done there.
As for D. Warren, I agree with you that Lloyd could have probably sat him down and counseled him that staying another year would only help his stock.
As for the others, who knows. You might be right that the coaches didn't do enough to keep them. you might now. Like jblaze said, we will never know.
October 19th, 2010 at 9:03 PM ^
Disagree on Dorsey. They had to have some inkling that he was a risky admit from an academics point. I fail to see how they couldn't. They must at least have a staffer review a kid's transcript at some point ?
Cissoko yeah, 4 star recruit with a lot of ability but somewhere along the line it all went south. He was here what, 2 years? Had a lot of offers before coming here.
Warren - I'm sure the coaches tried to keep him around, but he got Ernest Shazor disease and decided to go pro.
October 19th, 2010 at 10:23 PM ^
Everyone had an "inkling" on Dorsey, but that doesn't mean you back off. It wasn't like we turned someone away to make room for him. You get him to sign and you help him/pray he gets qualified. He didn't, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth the risk... since there was no risk. (outside of the PR hit)
October 19th, 2010 at 10:38 PM ^
and the genuine possibility the Sean Parker would be here rather than at Washington if he had been the primary focus of DB recruiting not Dorsey
October 19th, 2010 at 7:46 PM ^
It is amazing how fuzzy our memories are...mine included. Carr becomes more of big loveable teddy bear with every year. It was either Edwards or Manningham who spent a good amount of time in Carr's doghouse and I believe that he was ready to hand out walking papers when the player's mom talked some sense into the young man and came to Carr and said that her boy would get with the program and play ball the coach's way. Here was a coach willing to send his star play packing...so don't give me the "He would have talked those guys into staying."
Changing the culture of any organization is hard, any organization. Having someone around who has done it before is a good thing. Look at how long it has taken for Spurier to convince the South Carolina players and program that 6-6 is not at good season and that they can bring the talent to play with the big boys. It has taken him 6 years. I am content to wait and everything I have seen so far indicates to me that once you get beyond the 24 hour news cycle and OMG-THE-WORLD-IS-GOING-TO-END reactionaries that RR is going to get this program to a point where it is a consistant powerhouse.
October 19th, 2010 at 8:36 PM ^
I cringe whenever I think of the SIX DBs who had eligibility who aren't on the team now (Warren, Woolfolk, Turner, Dorsey, Cissoko, Vlad).
Let's calm down a bit and review these cases:
-Woolfolk is on the team, just injured. That's no one's fault.
-Cissoko would be on the team if it were up to him. Unfortunately, he screwed up and is now in jail.
-Dorsey didn't get admitted . . . anywhere. U-M, FSU and Louisville all decided he wasn't college material in the classroom.
-Warren thought he was good enough to go pro. He never said anything about being unhappy, just that he thought he was ready.
-Vlad looked like he was unlikely to play, given his loss of speed after the injury. He thought he could find playing time elsewhere and left.
-Turner is the one that's harder to understand. He came in with crazy hype but then redshirted, and then transferred. There were whispers that he was a 'tweener, but still, you'd think he would have played somewhere. We may never know with him.
That we lost all these guys in a span of 12 months is pretty unbelievable, but most were due to factors that probably had little to do with coaching.
October 19th, 2010 at 9:43 PM ^
Anyone see Vlad practice? This is not a knock on Cam but I can't imagine Vlad being slower than him.
October 20th, 2010 at 10:09 AM ^
Roy Roundtree outran him for about 60 yards in the spring game, and by outran, I mean Vlad was gaining no ground on him. Meanwhile, JT Floyd came from 10 yards behind both of them, passed Vlad, and almost caught Roundtree.
October 20th, 2010 at 1:38 PM ^
a) Vlad injured his knee in the spring and his speed was likely hampered by that injury.
b) Teric Jones, not JT Floyd, was the one who almost caught Roundtree. Jones is fast. Floyd...well...isn't very speedy for a cornerback.
October 19th, 2010 at 6:03 PM ^
This team is getting closer all the time from the sounds of things. Yeah i miss all the talent we lost, but when these younger guys grow up that bond will be something special. We are truly building a team, lets just hope everyone stays around long enough for it to happen.
October 19th, 2010 at 6:23 PM ^
I assume that the point of this thread is that our defense really is decimated. And it is. However, let's rewind to last year. Didn't we have both Warren and Woolfolk last year? We also had Steve Brown and a certain NFL emerging star named Branson Graham. How did we do last year on defense? Not so well, if I recall.
So while I do agree that our defense is young and thin, that defense was a heck of a lot less young and thin last year, and the results, while not a bad, were pretty damn bad. The decimated defense is only part of the problem.
Also, while we are lacking "Michigan level talent" on D, how is it that we train schools like Akron, Rice, Troy, Louisiana - Monroe, Marchal, Minnesota and Duke (to name just a few) all rank ahead of us in total defense. Do these schools really have a talent advantage over us? I think not. Yes these schools (and about 100 more) rank ahead of us in total defense. That, to me, is more than just a decimated defense. That is poor defensive coaching.
This is not a rant against RR - he doesn't focus on that side of the ball (which, by the way, is just fine, since he is focusing on his strengths and delegating those areas that are not his strengths). But, there is something up with the coaching if we are pathetic for the second straight year on defense.
October 19th, 2010 at 6:43 PM ^
How many other schools have 4 out of 5 new underclassmen starters in their defensive secondary and are better than Michigan in total defense?
This is an honest question.
Look at USC, which has a great, proven defensive coordinator but perosnnel issues similar to Michigan. Their defense is a train wreck right now.
If someone around here has the time, I would like to see how many defenses are fielding a large number of new underclassmen starters and are still performing adequately.