Character Issues: Tressel, Carr & RR
One thing I have read about in some of the articles is the disconnect between Tressel's behavior (win at all costs, cheat, look the other way, etc.) and his "senatorial" demeanor and "molder of young men" meme with his players. Even today, over on the OSU boards, there are quite a few defenders of Tressel being "a good man" who got the shaft. It is clear that many in Buckeye Nation are in denial.
Having said that, Tressel really set himself up for failure. Publishing a book on life lessons and pontificating while at the same time, looking the other way and being willfully ignorant about his own players shows a monumental failure in judgement.
This failure on Tressel's part also reminds me how appreciative I was of Carr. For all of Carr's failings, his reputation will never be tarnished like Tressel's. Think about it: Carr was voted a member of the College Football Hall of Fame. Tressel will never enter those doors unless he pays admission.
It also has caused me to reflect a bit on RR. I always thought he was a man of good character, but I guess I wonder now. This character and integrity thing is a pretty slippery slope. It is complicated. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't put up a few character posts written by me sometime in the last year or so.
Much has been made of Tressel's ability to mold character in players who had made questionable choices. I guess this can happen on occasion, but sometimes, you make trouble by recruiting guys with bad decision making skills.
You see this in pro sports, with the NFL and NBA putting a lot of time into figuring out the character issues of players they recruit. Someone can have all the talent in the world, but if their work habits and personal habits are no good, how far will you get?
My personal thought is that all of us need a healthy does of humility. The proud can fall at any time. I'm glad that we dodged several bullets, and hope that Michigan coaches quietly lead with integrity, in a way we all can be proud of.
You're on fire today, Section 1!
For all of the negative things about RR...when the practice stuff came up, he said the buck stopped at his desk.
When Tressel had a problem...he basically blamed his players, and his greatness for trying to protect them.
Only a delusional tOSU fan could make the two comparable.
"For all of Carr's failngs"
Funny how a lot of people still bash Carr here in subtle ways. Yes, Carr was owned by scumbag Tressel, and scumbag Pete at U$C. How was his record against non-scumbags? Pretty damn solid if you ask me. Guy was a Hall of Fame coach. I think we all need to start acting like it, and appreciating what he did for the University.
I can't help myself (as others have here as well) but to wonder how much different Carr's last few years would have looked against non-cheating coaches. I know it's useless but man....
FUCK. YOU. Fucking apologist.
How many times do you need to be reminded that Tressel's gameplans in The Game (which pw3ned Carr's from day one) and him being a scumbag are totally separate issues. Carr has no excuse for getting his ass kicked to that degree in the rivalry.
What gives with the "FUCK. YOU."? And then you, a RR apologist, dare to call anyone else an "apologist"? C'mon now....Fair is fair. If RR is allowed to blame the media, two DC's, Carr, former players and the fans...Do you really think you should be tossing the apologist label at anyone?
Carr did indeed lose the games to OSU (and we'll all know that happened even if the wins are eventually vacated), but at least he was competitive. Tressel could've benched his ineligible players and still crushed a RR team.
No need to bring up Rich Rod anymore just move forward. I think for one day we should just smile and say thank god the cheaters got caught.
All Michigan fans can be thankful at our good fortune.
This was a stupid post. If a moderator reads this far and removes the whole thing, it would be fine with me.
The most I'll say is that things are not always what they seem to be, and we see that in spades with Tressel. Brian said this very eloquently on the main page. Tressel held himself up as a paragon of virtue and molder of young men. In the end, he was a duplicitous cheater.
This has shaken me, and I am less willing to make judgement calls on others.
Respect for admitting it...
I believe you mean "respeck"!
I think this is a very good takeaway from all this - sorry everyone is negging you. People are sick of talking about RR and ready to neg any reference to him, but I think your point about being less willing to make judgements on others is well taken.
Um, things are exactly as they seem. Tressel's issues involving NCAA rules, were well known even before this scandal broke. See: Youngstown State, Maurice Clarett, and Troy Smith. Don't forget the pictures of Pryor and that Corvette.
He's exactly like one of those supposedly pious, anti-gay-marriage Republican senators that get caught in the public bathroom cheating on his wife by having gay sex.
this is a really ill-judged post. It would be more convincing to point out the differences between Rod and Tressel than to speculate--warrantlessly--that they might be alike. (Why? Why go here?) Rod is a pillar of rectitude compared to the Senator and, clearly, someone with big enough balls to stand and take a punch, deserved or no.
But only a moderator can put this thread out of it's misery now.
What I wanted to say, and said poorly, was that it is difficult to judge character issues. On the surface, Tressel looked like a good guy. Now that all this stuff has come out, less so. I have been too prone to point to character in the past. At this point, I feel much less willing to comment on character, for good or for bad.
Certainly, given everything he did for Brock Mealer, and his care for his team, I don't think RR did anything I'm aware of to show questionable character. I always fought for RR because of what I perceived as his good character. In the end, his character didn't matter, because of bad luck, if you will, a lack of defense, and not enough wins.
THE BISB COROLLARY TO GODWIN'S LAW:
"As an MGoBoard discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving RR approaches 1."
I think this deserves a place in the MGoBlog FAQs under the What's up with section.
Using unscientific methods, I've estimated total posts at about 65 when the probability RR is mentioned hits 1.
Perhaps we can all agree about how much we appreciate the way Lloyd Carr led the Michigan program for a decade? Better to lose a few games to tosu at the end than to run a program the way Tressel apparently did and be more successful. It isn't worth it. Although I wonder if tosu faithful would see it that way?
They aren't mutually exclusive.
Dave Bliss was as underhanded as any coach ever. Didn't mean Baylor basketball was dominant when he was there (in fact, they became relevant only after he left).
Excessive benefits to OSU players and cover-ups by the coach don't have anything to do with Tressel having his team much better prepared for Michigan than Carr had his teams prepared for Ohio State.
You should probably stick to posts admonishing the rest of the board for posting stuff your wife doesn't approve of.
...might be amended in future reprints.
Chapter 38
"DON'T PUT YOUR ENTIRE CAREER AND REPUTATION INTO THE HANDS OF THUGGISH KIDS WHO ONLY CARE ABOUT WEED, TATTOOS, AND SICK RIDES, Y'ALL."
If anything it may show that Rich didn't land TP because "he wasn't willing to make a deal".
wow. that's an entire thread right there -- make a caption for this pic.
"so.. uh... j-tress offered me a new ride every month and free ink as if it were raining from the sky, and all you guys got are the winged-helmets?"
i feel bad for RR having to go up against this BS during recruiting.
I have to run out for a few hrs. Feel free to grab and post...(Love Ducati's - someday!)
I think we forget often that these are YOUNG men. They aren't forty or fifty year olds making bad decisions - they are 18 and 20 year old men making bad decisions. You're away from home for the first time, living on your, living with the consequences of your decisions all the time. Many of my colleagues in med school of all places, were still drinking and partying it up. This is what you do when you're young.
However, as an adult who is tasked with being responsible to mold young people, your responsibility is greater. Nothing is worse than lying and then having your kids believe lying is ok. There is a moral compass we are supposed to pass to the next generation that is bigger than god or church or anything else. Tressel failed these kids - that is what is sad. He told them bad behavior is ok as long as they are winners. How much better off would Maurice Clarrett's life have been if people instilled real virtues in him during college instead of paying him off. Or Terelle Pryor?
Adrian Arrington is a better man for having met Lloyd Carr, and so is Eugene Germany. Because they both got chances to prove themselves worthy to be on a time and to have a meaningful life - they didn't get an email sent to their handler to tell them to not rob people or smoke weed. They were given the treatment of adults - of men. Lloyd Carr was human and he made mistakes. But being a true molder of men was not one of them. I am proud he was Michigan's coach not just because of results on the field. But because of the fact that he took boys and made them men and taught them about right, wrong and consequences.
That is the tragedy of Tressel - that winning meant more than teaching the right thing. OSU fans should hope their next coach is a better man - not just a better coach.
I can understand the potential to soul search based on how well can we trust the public persona of anyone in light of what has come out regarding Jim Tressel. I'm sure Buckeye fans are particularly struggling with that. But to bring RichRod in here is a far stretch for a number of reasons
1) Jim Tressel is a classic image manager. He has a carefully crafted image that makes him look like a "saint" in a sordid world of college athletics. From his outward Christian faith (which from accounts of those who have interacted with him on that level - appears sincere), to his dress (respectful, conservative, academic), his well scripted tone when speaking, his ability to win and win big (always important to keep distractions), to his "apparent" concern for his players ... all of that helped fool us. Which was quite different from Rich Rodriguez, who never seemed how to manage his image, from public emotional breakdowns (even before the You lift me up incident), the southern accent in a snobbish, elitist community, his inability to win and win big at Michigan, and the very high profile poor life decisions by two of his former players, Chris Henry and pac-man jones.
2) Jim Tressel, while being a successful image manager, always has been surrounded by a cloud of NCAA investigations and violations. Winning clears all, and being a local boy which good values, people seemed to give him the benefit of the doubt. His father was a long time coach in the state. Jim was a former Buckeye assistant. The benefit of the doubt was always in place. But we've also always had reason to be skeptical. By contrast, Rich Rodriguez had no real NCAA baggage with him. However, he jilted his former lover (WVU) and was instantly an unpopular outsider at Michigan. While is mistakes are many, including a messy divorce from WVU, shredding documents (which may have been acceptable), having a few high profile former knucklehead players, being a spread offense guru outsider walking into traditional michigan, never fully embracing Michigan tradition (the number 1 jersey for starters), and in not winning enough, up until practicing and stretching too long, his background would indicate a good guy. But he was an outsider in MIchigan and scorned back home. In the words of Brent Musburger, "When the local media turns on you, you're finished". This happened day one to Rodriguez, and the worst they came up with was sloppy compliance regarding practice hours. And Rodriguez never hid it.
3) Rodriguez developed a history of actually dealing strictly with members of the team that violated rules. While he recruited some questionable athletes, he took quick action to dismiss or suspend athletes that broke rules, from Justin Feagin to Hagerup, to getting on Forcier for his actions, to backing off the recruting of BJ Daniels after rumors that he was shopping his talents around. Meanwhile, Tressel, claiming strong values, always seemed to let his players get away with anything, and when questioned, seemed to play the old canard, "Giving players second chances and being forgiving to help them continue on a path of growth and development". We all know that was only about winning games. The only way a Buckeye was shown the door was when they started dumping information about the athletic department.
4) Mealers! Nuff said. Except that stuff like that doesn't play when the media has already vilified you and you're losing 9 games a year and three in a row to that school in Columbus.
5) Contrasting with predessesors - Carr was always viewed as the Renassance Man/Coach at Michigan - more concerned with development of men than football. It might have been very accurate. Rodriguez made it clear he was a football coach (and probably more like Bo than Lloyd ever was). Lloyd perpetuated the myth of the Michigan man, Rodriguez came in to win football games. That doesn't make RichRod a bad guy, but it seemed like someone a lesser man than Carr. In the end, I think they were both relatively honest coaches who encapsulated the values at Michigan, both making mistakes, both taking responsibility and working to correct them.
Meanwhile, Tressel seemed like the anti-Cooper. Ohio native, coached in Ohio always. Valued the rivalry, beat Michigan, and managed an image that made him seem like a developer of men and concerned holistically with his players. Cooper was an outsider, never fully embraced the rivalry (like RichRod), didn't win against Michigan, and made key verbal missteps insinuating he only cared about winning on the field and that athletes were separate from the rest of the student body. The saint replaced the corrupt one at OSU, while Rodriguez replaced a "saint" at Michigan ... hard to live up to that reputation.
In the end, poor comparison. RR and Carr, while different, both had integrity. Different, but still good men. Tressel, image manager.
Resume daily activities.
Another MGoBoarder continues to totally glorify the College Football Hall of Fame just because Carr joined John Cooper in it.
Have any of you actually even been there? Seen how long the list is of inductees? Taken the American sports culture's temperature to measure how relevant it was in comparison to other HOFs? If the answer is yes to all three of those, you will agree with Brian that it isn't something to make a big deal about.
I've been there. I've also been to Cooperstown, the Hockey Hall in Toronto, Basketball Hall in Springfield and the NFL Hall in Canton. It is by far the least impressive, both as a monument and in the feeling of prestige in its inductees (and college football is my favorite of all those sports). That it is suddenly - and conveniently - being talked about in hushed tones on this board now is hilarious.
(I don't know) - but it's still a credential, a distinction.
It can only serve to add to one's credibility (even if only slightly).
But whatever the case, Carr doesn't need this credential to be above the narrow-minded trashing he often gets (IMHE).
I think it is hilarious how you seem to belittle all of Lloyd's numerous achievements over his coaching career, both on and off the field, while also magnifying a the few flaws/failures he did have.
I guess I just don't understand why we all can't be greatful for what he did. Sure he had his bad games, but overall he elevated the program from when he took it over. He was a Michigan coach, one who won a NC for us and numerous Big Ten titles. He developed a great amount of NFL players who are thriving today. So you can go ahead and say what you need to about the horrow, the oregon game, his losses to OSU, how he played conservative with the offense and what-not. But he was still a Michigan coach that did wonderful things for the program. Why is there always this split between Lloyd and RR guys. I supported both guys, and will continue to support both guys, because they both coached at Michigan. So to diminish Lloyd's achievement into the CFHOF as "not being a big deal" is pathetic of you. Any time any of our players, coaches, students, or administration get any sort of recognition, award, or achievement, we should all be proud and be thankful for what they have done. End rant.
but all that said, it was time for lloyd to go, whether he lost his edge for recruiting or refused to change with the times (ie. being more aggressive on O and D).
i still question whether or not he was all in for RR. certainly, Bo was all in for Lloyd, even though he was very upset that Mo was let go. i can't say the same for lloyd with regards to RR. he seemed like a reluctant supporter to me.
O no that wasn't an argument for him to stay, it was more of a "respect what he has done here" argument.
As for the support, we will never know. There is a major difference with the two, in that Lloyd didn't go 3-9 in his first year there. Winning gains everyones support. My guess is that Lloyd supported RR, but not to the extent that Bo supported Lloyd. Also, that situation was different as well because Lloyd coached under Bo. A head coach is always going to support his former assistants more than some outsider.
i didn't misinterpret your point - advocating lloyd to stay. i also agree with your premise on successors being assistants. doesn't make it right though.
it just makes me respect beilein that much more. he doesn't have a legendary ardent supporter. even fisher had one (Bo). having good character doesn't always mean one can't be successful. makes me pull for the bball team even more.
How can you say he elevated it from when he took it over?
What had more talent - the 1995 team or the 2008 edition? Hmmm.
When he took over, we were 10-3-1 vs. Ohio State and in bowl games the previous seven years. When he handed the program off, we were 3-11 in the same category.
Numbers are on my side, not yours.
Well lets see, a National Championship, 5 Big Ten titles, finished in the AP and coaches top 20 all of his coaching years but 1 (2005), and never had a losing season. Why are you taking a 7 year snapshot? Why can't we just look at his career as a whole? I am not denying his struggles in the later years, but what does that mean. Bobby Bowden struggled in his later years, yet he is still held in very high regard in FSU fans minds. Here are some numbers that do support that he elevated our program. He had a 122-40 record overall at Michigan. He went 19-8 vs top 10 ranked teams. He was ranked in the top 25 in all but nine games of his coaching career.
If you look only at numbers from 2004 on, yes.
If you look at the 2 consecutive 4-loss seasons he took over from, won a Championship in his 3rd season, and won the B10 in 1997, 1998, and 2000, with a 10-2, Orange Bowl win in between.
I just can't seem to put my finger on it, but I've read these "To RR or not to RR, that is the question" arguments before....
/pleasestopcomparingRRtoLloyd/Bo/TresselwhileI'monrecruitingandOSUsanctionscloud9
I guess I might have been wrong about the driving abilities of Rich Rodriguez. I can't believe I was so naive.
I don't know about that.
I was friends with a few players (still am), and saw a number of others. Anthony Thomas drove a beat-to-shit 10 year old Ford Escort - I'd estimate Blue Book at at around $2500.
Clarence Williams didn't have a car. Tai Streets drove an Explorer that was older than he had been at school.
Maybe some guys took things - it seems like Woodson may have (at least, there's some smoke there).
Regardless, I'm sure that your friend Tommy Hendricks appreciates your comment in a public forum.