Character Issues: Tressel, Carr & RR
One thing I have read about in some of the articles is the disconnect between Tressel's behavior (win at all costs, cheat, look the other way, etc.) and his "senatorial" demeanor and "molder of young men" meme with his players. Even today, over on the OSU boards, there are quite a few defenders of Tressel being "a good man" who got the shaft. It is clear that many in Buckeye Nation are in denial.
Having said that, Tressel really set himself up for failure. Publishing a book on life lessons and pontificating while at the same time, looking the other way and being willfully ignorant about his own players shows a monumental failure in judgement.
This failure on Tressel's part also reminds me how appreciative I was of Carr. For all of Carr's failings, his reputation will never be tarnished like Tressel's. Think about it: Carr was voted a member of the College Football Hall of Fame. Tressel will never enter those doors unless he pays admission.
It also has caused me to reflect a bit on RR. I always thought he was a man of good character, but I guess I wonder now. This character and integrity thing is a pretty slippery slope. It is complicated. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't put up a few character posts written by me sometime in the last year or so.
Much has been made of Tressel's ability to mold character in players who had made questionable choices. I guess this can happen on occasion, but sometimes, you make trouble by recruiting guys with bad decision making skills.
You see this in pro sports, with the NFL and NBA putting a lot of time into figuring out the character issues of players they recruit. Someone can have all the talent in the world, but if their work habits and personal habits are no good, how far will you get?
My personal thought is that all of us need a healthy does of humility. The proud can fall at any time. I'm glad that we dodged several bullets, and hope that Michigan coaches quietly lead with integrity, in a way we all can be proud of.
Don't involve RR in this. It's not necessary or warranted.
What does yesterday's news have to do with RR at all? Did I miss the part where the article said he was doing something that would tarnish his character?
Maybe I should start a new thread wondering this aloud.
But one thing is for sure, I still maintain chasing Pryor was the worst decision that RR made as the Michigan head coach.
And losing Pryor was the best thing RR did at Michigan (especially when combined with Denard taking the spot that would have been Pryor's).
Did RR even have a choice? Look @ his alternatives during that time....Chasing TP or getting stuck with Nick Sheridan and Steven Threet. With that said, I still think the whole recruiting of TP was a facade put on by him and OSU in order to scare away any elite dual-threat recruits Michigan might have been considering @ the time. In other words, he was a silent commit for OSU the whole way through. And for this trickery they paid dearly.
However, I'm pretty sure we can all think of even worse decisions RR made than this....the archives are littered with them.
i threw that that out at the time as a perfect conspiracy theory with a slight chance of being true. what better thing for tosu to do - flaunt gifts to TP to get him committed then tell him to string RR and UM along. that long-shot conspiracy theory may be much closer to reality than originally thought by me.
Pryor was and is an insanely good athlete. I don't think recruiting him was a bad thing, as long as he wasn't willing to do anything against the rules, which he obviously wasn't.
that we did not get Pryor precisely because RR was not willing to do anything against the rules. It is unfair to suggest that RR was anything other than upright. If you look at the character of the players he brought to Michigan, from Denard to Avery to a great many others, they seem like great young men who have not gotten into any trouble.
Why does this affect Rodriguez at all? IMO, all this story does is say that RR had a tougher time against OSU than we thought.
RR must have woke up every day and broke a mirror. The guy had the worst luck ever while he was here. Even though stories come out showing that RR was not on an even playing field with OSU WRT recruiting or playing the game, people somehow find a way to question RR's values on his way out the door. Never ceases to amaze.
Exactly. You're talking about a guy that did what for the Mealers? What did he do when Hagerup got in trouble the week of the OSU game? What did he do the day after he was fired?
You're talking about a guy who took time out of his transition to help a kid he barely knew, a guy who suspended his only functioning punter for a violation of team rules with his job on the line, a guy who showed his face in public immediately after being fired (and probably the worst firing in Michigan athletic history, at that) to donate thousands of dollars in clothing to Goodwill.
Jeez, the guy is no longer the coach here, has done nothing to earn new suspicion. Move on.
immediately upon getting information of the faux-drug deal investigation.
Rich Rodriguez may have character flaws (loyalty to his staff over delegating and allowing a DC to select their own staff), but this post is not warranted.
I wouldn't even call that a character flaw in the sense that we're using it about Tressel. Sure RR had his issues, as you've outlined, but to call the guy unethical without a shred of evidence is just ridiculous.
tough call there. loyalty vs rationality. bo preached loyalty to a fault. obviously, so did RR and it cost him his job. Bo just happened to be better at selecting assistant coaches. it's much easier to be loyal to good coaches.
Not sure if you meant to reply to me or not. I said above that I don't think that's a character flaw in the narrow sense that we're using it to describe unethical actions*. I do think it was an issue for RR, and probably was one that helped him get ousted.
*RR himself or a close friend or advisor might say "flaw" in the sense that it's something he should work on in the future, but obviously that doesn't make him a bad person.
I think what I said was: I'll admit (to all the Rich Rod bashing posters out there) that Rich had flaws (maybe character, maybe not - depends on your definition I guess), but in no way is he the same as Tressel. Thus, the OP should not have even broached the subject.
I apologize if I came off as saying you did. What I meant by my post was that I agree with what you said, though I'm not sure if character is the right word (like you bring up here).
I thought it was a good post, and I agreed.
no kidding..RRod had terrible luck. I cant believe how many things for Hoke are going right.
That aside. He took every kick in the nuts like a man, didnt complain and moved on. That guy is pure class. No matter where he ends up, that will be my second favorite team.
Someone is on quite the self-serving sactimonius roll today.
If a college football scandal causes you this much soul searching, take a break.
Yea, I can totally see the logic behind changing your views on RR's character...
Very simply, I want Michigan to 1) have a good football coach who 2) plays by the rules. Failure with either one or two will keep a coach from ultimately succeeding.
I loved RR, and wanted him to stay. I thought he was a man of good character. But that wasn't enough. Given what happened with Michigan's defense under RR, I have questioned whether he was a good head coach. Good OC? Yes. Head coach? Less sure.
As for character issues, if Tressel was slime, I can't help but wonder who else was. I always defended RR, just as OSU defended Tressel. Sometimes your fandom blinds you. Seeing the hypocrisy in Tressel causes doubt.
Coming back to Carr, he won games, it was always about Michigan, and he did it with quiet character. That is my hope and desire for all Michigan teams.
Going by that logic, I could claim that Bo probably punched people just like Woody, Moeller was paying players SMU style, Carr knew about Hart getting housing for his parents off campus just like USC, and RR let his players run wild at tattoo shops.
As for character issues, if Tressel was slime, I can't help but wonder who else was. I always defended RR, just as OSU defended Tressel. Sometimes your fandom blinds you. Seeing the hypocrisy in Tressel causes doubt.
Your argument amounts saying RR was guilty by association TO A PERSON WITH WHOM HE HAD NO FUCKING ASSOCIATION.
My head just broke clean through the table.
the ONLY thing you can say about RR regarding this, was his pursuit of that hoodlum Demar Dorsey. Neither Hoke nor Carr would have recruited Dorsey.
First "Walmart Wolverines" and "lowest rung of the alumni," and now "hoodlum"? You've hit this week's Myopic Typecasting Trifecta!
Dr. Cox, show him what he's won...
Can someone explain what "Walmart Wolverine" means? It is a Michigan fan who shops at Walmart and who didn't go to Michigan? I don't shop at Walmart, so can I be a Target Wolverine?
I can't explain the term (I like Coach K's reaction to Uncle Tom..."I'm not even sure I know what that means.") but I'll explain people that use it.
- Sparty
- M Alumni who were not fans before they got to M and now wish that anyone that didn't go to M should fuck off, not buy tickets or jerseys or memorabilia, ect. because the AD would do just fine without their dollars.
A lot of Sparties use it as an insult. I know it has something to do with a significant portion of the Michigan fanbase aren't alumni. For the life of me I can't understand why they would view/use that as an insult...
"Walmart Wolverine" is mostly used by Sparty to refer to a Michigan fan who did not attend Michigan. Actual visitation of a Walmart is not required; you could be a Michigan fan in Uganda, but still qualify as a "Walmart Wolverine"
It is Sparty's way of mitigating the damage of their MASSIVE inferiority complex. The idea is, "sure, Michigan might be a better school, but you can't claim superiority to me because you bought your allegiance by buying a t-shirt at Walmart." Michigan fans who use the term to refer to other Michigan fans are, by and large, jackwagons.
However, I have to point out this:
http://wildugandablog.com/2010/10/09/wal-mart-makes-a-move-on-africa/
Your statement made me curious to google "walmart in uganda". Since this whole thread is unnecessarily existing anyway, I figured I would add to the mess.
Also, thank you for making me think of Geico by saying "jackwagons".
Kudos for being Blue in the shadow of Touchdown Jesus.
Thanks for the explanations. I'm proud to say that I am a Walmart Wolverine.
Oh look, it's Mr. "Lowest Rung of the Alumni". You've shown to have a valuable opinion in the past, and this is no different.
Obviously neither Carr nor future Hoke will ever recruit a kid who won't academically qualify. This statement is fact, I have no idea how you got negged for it. Especially since you seem to be such an intelligent and reasonable poster.
i for one didn't want RR to pursue Dorsey but few coaches, if any, are immune to such recruits. i believe Lloyd received a commitment from a highly rated sketchy running back (i don't recall his name) in the late 90s or thereabouts who never ended up on campus. i think he ended up doing time.
so don't make blanket assumptions.
I think you're talking about Kelly Baraka
http://mgoblog.com/content/unverified-voracity-catches-kelly-baraka-yes-again
thanks. i remember the buzz (no pun intended; well maybe yes) about him before all these blogs/recruiting sites were popular. but back then, we quickly forgot about such recruits when they didn't suit up come fall. there always seemed to be a quality guy take the field in their stead.
it's a much more competitive world now, for sure, and blogs allow for the tiniest factoids to be reported and gain traction.
If the NCAA hadn't spent over a year bunking in AA, turning over every stone and only coming up with extra stretching.
Carr ran a clean program, but the fact that he sabotaged the program from behind the scenes and sacrificed three years of Michigan football becuase he wanted one of "his guys" to get the job is a very large debit on his ledger.
Because the "winners" get to rewrite history however they want, Carr will eventually enter "odorless feces" territory in the history of Michigan football. But it won't mean he didn't have his flaws, nor will it mean that he showed any integrity during RR's tenure at Michigan. I find it quite appalling that the same people who throw "Michigan Man" around like it is supposed to be an honor have no problem with a "Michigan Man" sabotaging "his" program for three years.
It makes it a tad difficult to claim "higher moral ground" over other programs when such pettiness and dishonesty are not only tolerated but rewarded. I guess "character" is in the eye of the beholder.
Hah, this is a fitting antithesis to the ill-conceived OP.
Facts? What facts? All anyone has seen is innuendo and speculation.
You are insane.
You are an idiot.
I mean, if the Senator is bad, then there is no way RR could be good, right? This is great analysis, and I can only hope that moderators see the merit of this post and bump it to the Diary section. If Brian knows whats good for him, he'd best post to the main page for all to see.
Start slow clap..../s.
Before I heard the stuff about Pryor's time in college, I had no reason to question Tom Brady and his ethics as an NCAA athlete...now I'm not so sure.
I see your point. For instance, I've always thought my father was a good honest man, but if we can't trust The Vest, can I really trust him now?
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<br>Sincerely, Questioning My Existence in Ann Arbor
I, for one, am glad we found a way to turn the dismissal of Tressel into an RR/Carr debate. I'm not even mad, I'm impressed...
I am really struggling with your analysis on RR in light of Tressel's problems. Does he have character issues because he went hard after the consensus top recruit in the country? If so, I am guessing there are at least one hundred fifty college football coaches who have character issues.
Ruh roh.
Coming from you this is extra hilarious. No sarcasm, cool that you can laugh about it.
I just thought that "RR" stood for Ruh Roh. Don't tell me; is there more to it? I may have to move some appointments this afternoon...