CC: Sam and Ira Saying "Balance" Could Keep UM From Landing Harbaugh
So Sam and Ira were discussing ad nauseam Schlissel's comments abount the "Evolution" and "balancing Academics and Athletics" and what that means for UM Football. Being as connected to UM as Sam is, is there reason to believe that the "balance" will keep UM from paying a football coach like Harbaugh "Saban-like" money to come here? Is Sam saying-without-actually-saying that Harbaugh won't happen?
Other things said by Sam and Ira (paraphrased):
- Bringing a big-money coach doesn't show that you are balancing academics and athletics.
- We can succeed with coaches that won't cost as much.
- AD choice may take a year or two.
- Nuss could be interim coach, or if Hoke wins-out he stays.
- We could go after a Pat Fitzgerald-type coach for less pay and he will balance academics with football.
- Maybe UM is no longer interested in being a top-notch football school that annually competes for the B1G.
I personally think that a school like UM can pay a coach a lot of money and still be regarded as a top-notch university. Why not show balance by being the best at both?
Thoughts?
November 3rd, 2014 at 12:29 PM ^
Harbaugh seemed to do that just fine at Stanford, and ripped Michigan for not balancing the two enough. Sounds more like campaigning for a different faction than an actual concern.
November 3rd, 2014 at 12:40 PM ^
To be clear, Sam did not say he hoped this would be the case, or that it was good if he was right. He was just discussing a hypothetical that he thought could well happen (i.e. not paying JH what he commands right now, which is more than he makes today).
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:12 PM ^
I'm not saying Webb was necessarily campaigning. But people don't give him inside info because he's a handsome fella. They do it to advance an agenda, and this strikes me as someone trying to push an anti-Harbaugh agenda more than an actual, legitimate concern Michigan might have.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:19 PM ^
Judging by the OP, it sounds like Sam is just entertaining a hypothetical here. This doesn't sound like inside information being peddled. "Balance" can be achieved no matter how much you pay a football coach. If an "outside the box" type hire is made and fails in the name of "balance", Schlissel and Hackett, or whoever the AD is who makes the hire, will be ran out of town very similarly to how Dave Brandon was, especially if Schlissel is seen as having had a hand in it.
Didn't Schlissel say, or imply at least, that he's going to stay out of the coaching search since it's not his expertise?
November 3rd, 2014 at 2:41 PM ^
"balance" is easy if thats what the coach / AD really desire - simply set the bar re admissions criteria and do not lower it, then follow with GA's and support personnel monitoring and mentoring student-athletes and making sure theyre taking care of business in class as on the field.
basically what theyve always tried to do, save for some blips here and there. i just hope the admin and alums are not kidding themselves re legit balance - its not 1975, you cannot compete for national titles at michigan in todays modern game if you only recruit and admit student-athletes <1% welcome at harvard, duke, etc - good luck against bama, auburn, ohio state, etc if thats the goal
November 3rd, 2014 at 9:03 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 3:26 PM ^
If Schlissel is staying out of the coaching search then who the hell would do it?
November 3rd, 2014 at 2:20 PM ^
Sam did not claim to have this from a source. He said this thought (his own) mainly came from Schlissel's presser (Ira played some of the key parts), and is just his way of possibly adjusting his expectations...and his listeners because he thinks the hypothetical might play out that way.
He fully acknowledged other's would hear the presser differently.
November 3rd, 2014 at 7:52 PM ^
I listened to a good chunk of the show today. I remember Sam saying a couple of times that he didn't necessarily agree with one POSSIBLE interpretation of Schlissel's remarks namely, looking to move forward by paying less to a new coach and deemphasizing what amateur athletics at a collegiate level has become.
There were several callers who made very cogent counter-arguments, including the non-athletic returns that a university realizes from winning teams. Having a full stadium for each game more than makes up for high coaching salaries. Cut some of the fat that DB added to his department and the balance sheet will look even better. Personally, not being a student, I can handle expensive ticket costs, but not when high ticket prices are paired with a lousy schedule and poor results on the field.
Schlissel is no fool. In his bnief time on campus, he has quicly come to appreciate what Michigan football represents to the University. The debacle that ensued with Brandon has brought this home in a major way. Schlissel, I suspect, is a pragmatist, who already knows the lineage between football and Michigan; by not paying homage to this relationship is a sure way to ensure that his time as U of M's president will be fraught with peril. The smarter course is to fix the program and reap the benefits.
November 3rd, 2014 at 11:23 PM ^
Everybody—especially including Sam and Ira—is reading far too much into vague comments made by Schlissel, but the notion that somebody is using Webb to push an anti-Harbaugh agenda is comically stupid, since he is as pro-Harbaugh as you can be.
Trying to discern ultimate truth from Schlissel's comments to date is like devout Catholics trying to divine holy meaning from the Pope's off-the-cuff utterances during Papal visits, and I'm including radio hosts on WTKA. People are going off the deep end already, and Brandon's chair is still warm. It's bizarre.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:41 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 2:21 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 5:31 PM ^
You're absolutely right. He said his prediction was that Brandon makes it until around New Years and that Hoke gets another year because the new AD won't have time to conduct a proper search; obviously that was incorrect.
November 3rd, 2014 at 11:26 PM ^
That's not true. Sam had been saying for the better part of the two weeks up to Brandon's resignation that he didn't see how Brandon can survive.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:05 PM ^
I dont care what Harbaugh said, I WANT TO WIN!!! Like KGB from the movie Rounders said "PAY THAT MAN HIS MONEY"
November 3rd, 2014 at 2:04 PM ^
It would be heart breaking for me if Schlissel decided competing for a big 10 and national championship every year wasn't a goal for Michigan football.
I hope he's willing to shell out, I really do.
November 3rd, 2014 at 2:00 PM ^
You could also read this, in light of Harbaugh's comments, as Schlissel is trying to line up his philosophy with Jim's.
November 3rd, 2014 at 2:58 PM ^
given Harbaugh's powerful criticisms of UM football and academics. I was thinking that his arrival could herald a renewed push to make sure that our players all really got educated--one that I personally could be proud of. And if a great coach and great program and genuine education didn't equal the University of Alabama--well, I could live with that.
November 3rd, 2014 at 5:11 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 7:30 PM ^
Exactly. Hoke has done everything right except win football games. He has very few recruits who do not qualify, he has very few major discipline programs (and when he does he seems to handle them well), he truly cares about the players and like you said he graduates the guys who want to stick around.
If winning wasn't top priority, Hoke wouldn't get fired.
November 3rd, 2014 at 11:14 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 3:32 PM ^
He is on record for stating UofM could do better on the student side of the balance, coached at Stanford where the recruits are held to a higher standard, and - less on the record - somewhere there was a story about a Woody quote about academics that Harbaugh posted at Stanford.
I didn't interpret Schlissel's comment to be so much about pay, more about mission.
November 3rd, 2014 at 5:56 PM ^
Because it destroys all others.
That said, I do have a sickening feeling that we're going to try and get an AD with at least a high academic focus. Bates and the AD at Northwestern seem like obvious choices.
Me personally, college athletics has changed so much...if you want that, go work at an Ivy. Michigan can recruit and graduate strong students without trying to be an Ivy knockoff and a weaker school athletically.
I don't think we have to be an SEC type run athletic program, but I see no problem with running the athletics department like Stanford, ND or Texas. Even Florida, they're SEC, but they don't operate like most other SEC schools.
Hire the best person for the AD job. Not the puppet or the guy who is going to include the academic folks on everything.
There's a middle ground and a balance. We have to find it.
November 3rd, 2014 at 12:27 PM ^
- Maybe UM is no longer interested in being a top-notch football school that annually competes for the B1G.
The Hell?!?!?!?
November 3rd, 2014 at 12:31 PM ^
I was thinking of that, too.
Look, the bottom line is that Michigan's football program is hanging on by a fucking thread and it's pathetic. They have to get the best guy available and right now, that is Jim Harbaugh. Athletics, especially football, brings so much money to universities, but when the team(s) start losing too much, more and more fans stop buying tickets and that is what is happening right now with the cash cow that is Michigan football.
November 3rd, 2014 at 12:31 PM ^
If Michigan decided they weren't interested in being a "top notch football school that annually competes for" championships, the Big House would look like it did before Don Canham and Bo Schembechler got to Ann Arbor: full for rivalry games and 60-70,000 for other games.
Not gonna happen.
November 4th, 2014 at 12:08 AM ^
100% agree with you on this. If Schlissel makes any serious attempt to de-emphasize football and the other major sports at U-M, he'll very quickly make serious enemies in the Michigan community. I think/hope he's smart enough to know that trying to significantly alter the athletic tradition here will do nothing other than impede what he wants to do in the academic sphere.
November 3rd, 2014 at 12:38 PM ^
There is change coming, my friend.
The O'Bannon case and even the NU/NLRB thing is going to guarantee something -- major changes are coming to NCAA football. Pay-to-play is inevitable. INEVITABLE. Players are going to be allowed to make money signing footballs, and that'll lead to endorsements, speaking engagements, and... money to play. INEVITABLE.
I'm not sure UM or NU or Stanford will want to be part of it. I'm not sure anyone in the B1G will want it, other than tUOS. It's like admitting you're really just a farm system for the NFL (and NBA). It's completely off the path of what an academic institution is supposed to be about. It's like a phone company suddenly deciding they want to make bazillions of dollars with really tasty lemonade stands. I mean you can do it, but you're not a phone company anymore. So what do you wnt to be?
So whether we want to pay $6M a year for JH or $2M for someone else next year, that's not really the issue -- it's the question this year, but I thinkyou have to ask the bigger question -- where do we want to be years from now, do we want to be spending millions on the football program to compete to FSU and Alabama, or do we want to remain an academic institution for which athletics on the side is nice and successful against our peers but not the school's mission (eg gymnastics, swimming).
I know what the POTUM would say to this, and I think, the big-money for a guy like Harbaugh is maybe not the future of this University.
November 3rd, 2014 at 12:49 PM ^
As much as I want to the football team to pursue national championships, UM continues to make choices that are not in line with what other schools are choosing in order to win NCs. The specter of the change alluded to above is enough to scare UM onto a different (Ivy-like) path, although it's hard to pay the debt service on a $226 million stadium renovation if you're no longer selling tickets to competitive big-time football.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:07 PM ^
....with what other schools are choosing in order to win NCs."
Except for ticket prices. UM football revenue generation is Top 3 (behind Texas and OSU). (UM is ranked #2 in direct football revenues, but I gotta believe there's a classification footnote keeping OSU #3 since in total AD revenues, Texas=$160MM, OSU=$144MM, UM=$128MM.)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/08/31/the-economics-of-co…
November 3rd, 2014 at 7:33 PM ^
What choices are we making that aren't in like with what other schools are choosing in order to win NCs? Outside of hiring good coaches, which I don't think we did on purpose.
November 3rd, 2014 at 12:55 PM ^
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that no Ivy League school charges $125 per football ticket.
If UM is going the Ivy League route, then there are a whole lot of capital projects that were insanely foolish. And it goes without saying that the non-revenue sports are in for massive cuts.
If the AD is going to be aggressive in charging Top 5 ticket prices, then the AD needs to match that aggressiveness in its fielding of a football team.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:11 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:12 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:19 PM ^
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/mich/genrel/auto_pdf/2012-13/misc_n…
The write-off is 80% * marginal tax rate, so let's say ~20% reduction in taxes paid.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:49 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 3:57 PM ^
My PSD is $600 each (X2) plus whatever the season ticket price was divided by 6. If I remember it was $420 or so. So $60/ ticket plus my $100/game PSD =$160/ game. Now I do put them through the business because I always bring a guest, which I don't charge, so it is really $320/game for me to watch App State. But I do and will pay it because I LOVE my seats and I LOVE football Saturdays with freinds and family. If I sat 2 rows down and a couple of seats over, I would just buy them on Stubhub and save hundreds. If my price drops to $125 next year I am happy, happy, happy.
November 3rd, 2014 at 4:48 PM ^
At the link below in a post about historical inflation-adjusted Michigan football ticket prices, the author chose a representative $129 ticket (2013) in the Valiant section rather than compare each "tranche". (A fancy finance term that simply means "slice" in French.) I rounded down to the nearest pre-tax-adjusted $25, or $125. IMO, the word-saving approximation doesn't change the gist of the argument in any way.
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/06/a-brief-history-of-michigan…
(2) Starting about 20 years ago, the athletic department decided to “monetize” this demand, as they say in the business schools. Current ticket prices are hard to list straightforwardly, because like so many other things they’ve been stratified into different tranches, as they say at Goldman Sachs. Anyway, the “base” price of tickets is now $65, but the real average ticket price is about double that, because as of 2005 Michigan finally jumped into the private seat license game. The way this works is that if you want a season ticket (almost all tickets are sold as season tickets) you have to first buy the right to buy the ticket, by buying a PSL. These range from $75 for end zone seats to $600 for prime seats. Here’s how it works for a seat on the 15-yard line — that is, more or less an “average” ticket:
Season ticket: $455 ($65 per game for seven games)
PSL: $450
Actual price per ticket: $129
(Because of our amazing tax code, 80% of the PSL is deductible as a charitable contribution to the university, so depending on your tax bracket the “real” price might be more like $110).
For a 50-yard line seat the price is more in the neighborhood of $160 per ticket per game, i.e., a more than quadrupling of the price from what it was 20 years ago in real terms.
All this ignores the world of the one percenters, who since 2010 have been able to purchase luxury suites (demurely referred to as “enclosed seating” by UM’s administrators) at a current annual lease price of $60,000 to $90,000. Each suite holds up to 16 people; however, if you lease one you still have to buy game tickets for anyone who you wish to help ascend to these celestial realms. For the lesser nobility, “club” seating is available at $1,500 to $4,000 per season ticket (club seats are outside, but are protected from some of nature’s fury by being directly beneath the luxury suites, which seems metaphorically appropriate.)
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:02 PM ^
I agree, and IF that happens I would like to see Michigan scale down the operation, and form a league with all the ND, NU, Stanfords, Cal, etc.. Hell, lets invite the Ivy schools. There would a new set of rules, and we would only play other schools in the league. In effect, we'd secede from the semi-pro leauge known as the NCAA (aka SEC and a few other good teams).
Man, it sounds super crazy, but ultimately I think it would be the right thing to do if we want to take the balance between academics and athletics seriously. I think an unintended consequence that I also fully support, is that we would start to see the Ess-See-See for what it really is, a football school with a side-business in academics.
I would still be a huge fan. The quality of the football might not be as good, but if I wanted top quality football in the first place, I'd be a fan of the NFL. We would be able to win championships while maintaining our integrity. What I really care about is participating in something that binds me to my beloved University and winning with integrity, something that seems less and less likely the more the NCAA becomes a Big Business.
Thats my radical opinion if things keep going in the direction they seem to be.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:14 PM ^
That is insane. We're the winningest program in college football and now we should go and play some second tier brand instead of just sucking it up and paying a real coach? This president will either pony up or he will be shown the door quick here in Ann Arbor. Football is God here rather the idiots who comment think it's about academics it's NOT!!!!!!! You can tell some of the people who comment must not live in Ann Arbor cause Football is the most important thing in this town especially from a economic stand point. It's the Life blood of Ann Arbor along with the hospital. Only a idiot or a moron would be dumb enough to think the school would be half as popular without the Football team. Academic people would love to think it's all about academics but it's not in Ann Arbor I live here and I can tell you academics are important but they're not trumping how our Football team in importance. And for those who want us to be Stanford news flash we're not Stanford and we never have been nor should we ever want to be. Leaders and the Best does not mean accept mediocrity or lower our program standards cause some guy who doesn't care for sports takes over as President. Trust me when I say this the new president will be shown the door quickly if he tries to go the cheap route or makes the impression that Football isn't that important around here.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:48 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:50 PM ^
are far more important to me than any sport. We are an academic institution first.
Your view suggest to me that your are not or were not a student here.
November 3rd, 2014 at 3:16 PM ^
"Balance" is being discussed at the highest levels. My personal feeling is that the "requirements" to compete for a National Championship in football are too high a price to pay. Michigan and the new University President have an opportunity to lead a broad discussion about balance between academics and athletics. In doing so it may shine a light on the negative attributes of the NCAA and schools that turn a blind eye to player payments and the like.
November 4th, 2014 at 12:19 PM ^
The problem with people who attended Michigan is you think you're more important than the guy who grew up loving Michigan. It's the average Joe who spends his money on gear,donations,tickets and all things Michigan that keeps the school going strong. I live in Ann Arbor do you? Cause if you think your degree is more important than the jobs of thousands who depend on the Football program than you're either a very sad person or you're delusional. Your degree is important but the academia side takes a back seat here to the Football program to say it doesn't means you either don't live here or you're in denial.
November 3rd, 2014 at 1:52 PM ^
November 3rd, 2014 at 2:34 PM ^
He isn't entirely wrong about the economic impact on Michigan football has. Ann Arbor businesses would struggle a lot more without the extra thousands of customers going to restaurants and staying in hotels.