to play football, not to play trumpet
CC - Brandon's Delayed Decision and Forced D Staff Change Leverage
This will not end well
Okay, sorry for posting. This is why I rarely post. Apparently this was worse than: "Darius Morris=Butterfly" and "Are Players allowed to cheer/chant." At least I have a sense of humor! Let's see if I can get down to zero points in a single day! Thank you all for your support.
A reasonable post with a theory and some analysis and some thoughts. Ignore the CC abusers and keep on the track you are on, you will do fine here.
that's why they end.
Otherwise, Brendan Morrison (and a few others) would like a word with you.
Every damn CC post has some variation of "this will not end well" as its first reply. The veal pen needs new material.
It will if it ends with this-will-not-end-well posts being permanently banned.
this is the kind of asshole who says "this will not end well" to appease the lowest rung, that i cannot stand, and really wish brian would somehow put a stop to it.
but i digress, regarding the OP... rodriguez doesnt have the leverage nor would he do that. he wants to coach here. i believe the decision to harbaugh was done after the MSU game, on a handshake, but if not, here is a novel idea... it'll take harbaugh a few years to get his type of player, and wouldnt it be interesting if rodriguez were to stay on as OC for one year only, as a michigan man he wants to be, to run the O with those players, while harbaugh recruits for the future. this wouldnt be a bad gig for RR b/c he would get to see his players through, and would position himself to get a top head coaching job next year, and he then would have saved face somewhat on both ends. Otherwise the word is he'll need to go somewhere as a OC this year, so why not here.
This is a novel idea would probably work well for next year. However, it is a little short sided and it seems like Harbaugh would want to start teaching his offense right away, much like RichRod did when he came here.
In the long run I think that it would be better for Harbaugh to start teaching his system and plays even with the players Michigan has now.
And this is all hypothetical of course.
Has it ever happened before where a "fired" coach lingers for coodinators position? I doubt it. Too much pride on the line. It would be like a President stepping down to be Vice President. Could you imagine John McCain as a VP candidate on a ticket with Sarah Palin in 2012. He wouldn't do it (even if he was younger). RR is under contract for three more years. He doesn't need to be a coordinator.
Besides, while RR was an innovator of this offense, there are now hundreds of guys who can run it. JH would be able to pick someone up if he chooses to follow this trend.
Sorry about lack of paragraphs. Typed on Blackberry and there were spaces in there when I clicked save.
I imagine she's a pretty nice girl, someday i'm gonna maker her mine.
many of the best potential replacements for the current D staff will be gone by then. Have seen what has been going on in the college football coaching ranks lately?
I am not saying this isn't the reason (heavens knows I have no idea what it is), but if it is the idea, I think it could backfire.
I forsee Michigan having one of the top 5 highest paid DC's in the country next season.
pray that you are right. Honestly, I hope that is the case and would love if it was Randy Shannon.
Agreed. I am a big fan of Randy Shannon for some reason.
That reason being, he is not Greg Robinson.
is the primary reason why i'm advocating for my pet ferret to be the next DC at Michigan.
I'll take the ferret. It's got to be better than the stuffed beaver.
The reason being, he consistently put together killer defenses at Miami.
and what would make a top 5 paid DC, however, I do think they'll open the check book. I wouldn't be surprised to see the pay top 800k.
Isnt DB making all these upgrades here at UM? The new jumbo HD scoreboards, the Big Chill, permanent lights, etc. He knows that Michigan needs an upgrade at DC, so If he is spending big bucks on those other things, why not pull out the check book for a quality DC.I fully expect to see a high profile guy come in, like a Randy Shannon,(god I hope it is him) and will definitley be well compensated.
Not sure I am holding out all hope on that one.
There have been alot of coaches moving around, but they are available candidates. There always be candidates. We may have to pay more or give them extra incentives to pry them lose from their current jobs. IMHO, waiting limits our options
IMHO, I think this seems like possible reason for DB to wait. Problem is that if RR doesn't agree to these changes, I am not sure DB has any leverage. Would DB fire him and the staff, who would he get. The options would be more limited.
for the nuke....
I think a 1 Negaton bomb will do for now.
April, come she will.
May, she will stay.
June, she'll change her tune.
July, she will fly.
August, die she must.
September, I remember.
How are you in college and know a relatively obscure S & G song?
Great music is great music in any era.
Also, grad student...
It is a good point that you have raised here. I'm not saying it hasn't been brought up before, but it is the first time I have read a post like this. Either way, I still believe (as does just about everyone) that DB is making a huge mistake by not announcing anything. He is hurting the program more than helping it.
There are 1.5 million reasons to wait until January.
That's not thinking at the margin. Dave Brandon has a pretty good business resume, so I imagine he understands economics. I doubt that one, five, or even a thousand dollars really matter to him in this decision. It's possible that he cares about each and every one of those dollars, but extremely unlikely because that's a poor economic decision procedure. Just sayin'.
I guess you would know best with your 1.5 years of real world experience class of 2009.
I grew up in my parents' small businesses, so the last year-and-a-half are the first ones I've spent not in the real world. Working for somebody else? Taking home a paycheck? Having health insurance with dental and vision? Shit, that's the easy (albeit boring) life.
I see Fred Jackson has been spending his free time making posters.
If Dave Brandon is to be believed (and I am not saying he shouldn't) he hasn't even started evaluating RR yet. Therefore, JH does not have a deal made in secret, RR does not secretly know he is coming back and there is no deal on the table for a new defensive staff to swoop in after the bowl game.
There are a lot of people who say DB is a man of integrity and that is why he is sticking to this timeline, because of his integrity. If that is true, the only way he has integrity is if those things listed above are the case.
If it turns out that come January 4th or 5th we have a) a new coach or b) a new defensive staff I will have to assume that this timeline was nothing more than a smoke screen and DB doesn't have nearly the integrity many here want to believe he does.
For me, there is not nearly enough evidence one way or the other on DB to decide where I stand. After all this I will have something to go on.
My thoughts exactly.
I have a really hard time believing that DB is doing nothing right now. If that is in fact the case, and he decides after Jan 1 that "hey, this just isn't working...let's make a change"... well, it seems disastrously late to do such a thing. And if Harbaugh (or any other coach, for that matter) is in place 3 or 4 days later, I will not believe for one minute that there was not, at the very least, some vetting of the new coach prior to January.
But as you say, the lack of evidence here really makes it difficult to form a solid opinion.
Couldn't disagree more.
If RR is fired and a new coach announced on January 4 I will attribute that to DB's dillegence.
As a prudent AD of a floundering program, he doesn't need to wait until the decision regarding RR is made before he checks out the available coaching pool. Any AD presiding over a program in distress should always have at least an idea of available and up-and-coming coaching talent. Not having a plan B at all represents a complete lack of preparation.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying start interviewing people right now and then lie and tell RR no decision has been made yet. There should be none - nor do I believe there are - contracts already signed nor negotiations underway. But doing research to find out about the pool of talent -- that's just doing your homework and being well prepared.
Remeber, DB's responsibility is ultimately to the University of Michigan, not to RR. By waiting until the day after you have fired RR to begin considering who else is available, being completely unprepared and left flat-footed for your coaching search, well.. I guess you could call that pulling a Martin. Companies don't always publicize their contingency plans when considering various scenarios, and it's a bit presumptious to assume that were an informed decision to be made quickly that it was due to some subversive behavior.
The point was DB himself has said numerous times that he is waiting until AFTER the bowl game to evaluate RR. I am not the one advocating that this is a sound strategy, DB is.
Also, nowhere did I say that he isn't doing research, where did you see that in my post? What I said is if a new coach is hired by the 4th or 5th of January I am calling BS on this whole timeline thing he laid out for all the world to see.
If you think he can evaluate a coach (not just the on field stuff but the program at large) and come to an agreement on a contract with a new coach in 4 days you are dillusional. If you have ever taken part in contract negotiations you will know exactly what I mean.
My post was not intended to be a post about reality. It was addressing the fact that DB has said countless times that the evaluation will not take place until AFTER the bowl game. That means it hasn't happened yet and no coaching search has transpired because you don't do a search when you don't have a vacancy.
I also mentioned that most people here harp on about DB's integrity and my post was saying that if he has as much integrity as people here give him credit for, nothing at all has transpired at this point, nor will it until after the bowl game.
My last point was that I don't have nearly enough evidence in regard to DB to say whether I believe any of this, but if he is to be believed, nothing has happened yet.
If you disagree with me, that's fine. What you are saying, however, is that you don't believe DB, not that what I am saying is wrong because what I stated in my post are facts that came directly from DB.
If you think he can evaluate a coach (not just the on field stuff but the program at large) and come to an agreement on a contract with a new coach in 4 days you are dillusional.
I apologize for injecting myself into this argument, but I don't really see much disagreement here. I think it's really just splitting hairs. An evaluation is a process, yes, but the actual formal meeting when an employer gives an employee his/her evaluation can come on a specific date and take place very quickly. The data that is used for that evaluation may be gathered over a long period of time in advance, but the formal eval itself doesn't have to take long.
As for contract negotiations, that's not my bailiwick, but I really don't think it's an insurmountable hurdle for UofM to make an offer, for JH to agree in principal, and to allow his agent to work out the details after an announcement. It would be in JH's best interest to start work as quickly as possible.
Again, none of this is to actually say I think JH is coming, but just to point out that things can happen very quickly and DB can still be a man of his word.
Thank you dude. Thank you.
As much as I'm sick of the CC topic, I do find this viewpoint interesting. If Brandon was to decide to keep RR but force him to bring in a new defensive staff, doing so before the bowl game probably wouldn't put us in a very good position to win that game. If the plan is to keep RR, I think it is very important for Michigan to win that game, because it will increase public support for RR. If we were to fire our defensive staff now and lose in the bowl game, it would just be another excuse and everyone is getting tired of excuses.
Having said that (Curb your Enthusiasm anyone?), if this is DB's plan, it sucks that we are going to miss out on a lot of good defensive replacement candidates.
Who wouldn't be happy when looking at that?
Terrelle Pryor, for one. Denard's stealing TP's awards and murdering his glory.
If you read this article the Les Miles part make since. http://network.yardbarker.com/college_football/article_external/rich_rodriguez_gone/3786770
That is just another article filled with a couple of facts, a lot of unsubstantiated rumors, and a flight of imagination.
We'll know a lot more about DB come January.
is that the opening says he's gone and it's a done deal and the last paragraph says "if Harbaugh doesn't come, RR will stay."
when your opening paragraph conflicts with your conclusion... you've failed
1.) Select provocative claim.
3.) Great writing!
That article seems to be just a regurgitation of nearly every CC thread on here.
I've read that some news outlets are now parroting MGoBlog. I wouldn't say this article was evidence, but rather it seems to be someone filling news space with baseless reporting on nothing in an attempt to draw eyeballs and/or generate controversy and money for the site.
to high jack this thread, the OP raises some valid concerns. What I see missing in all of these CC permutations is the one angle that many here fail to give any speculation on. That's Brandons exit interviews with the out going Senior class and interviews with the returning players.
I personally believe that what these guys say may have a heavy influence on DB's decision. If I recall one of the leaders on Def. MM says that a CC would suck. Several seniors have openly made endorsements in the media interviews about RRs status.
This talking point is generally ignored by both the pro and con sides of the CC discussion.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
When are these interviews done? I think DB will considered them. How much, no idea.
the one thing i give DB credit for is he really does have everyone guessing.
Another negative though is this whole thing is marginalizing the importance of the bowl game, IME. I care much more about the decision than the outcome of some glorified exhibition match, which is sad.
Yes -- Brandon has repeatedly said he will be evaluating the program as a whole. That means everyone and everything, not just wins and losses. Despite what people seem to think, these aspects of the program are not a given. Some coaches are better than others at motivating scholarship players to become part of the University and get the Michigan-Man education the program is paying for.
It's possible Brandon gains a bit of leverage in the defensive-coaching decisions that will have to be made after the season. But I think waiting has more to do with really wanting to beat Mississippi State and the positive effect doing so will have on the players in the off season. Firing coaches before that game hurts our chances of winning. Occam's Razor.
I'm still hanging on that there is a decent chance that RR will be back. The reason being what you said. I believe he wants to see if Rodriguez loses the team. Like Bobby Williams did MSU - just lost his players at the end and was a beaten coach. This may be one of the main reasons he's actually serious on still evaluating the program. From what I've read it doesn't appear to be the case and it looks like he has great support from the team. Just reading comments after the Football Bust mess showed they support him.
It's depressing to sit and wait to see what happens while recruits seemingly look elsewhere (especially mid-year guys)...but I think this is one of the main reasons. That and DB has said that this team has "earned" the bowl game. We'll all find out in a few weeks...
It's got to get better...right?
I see you drivin' round town with the coach I love
And I'm like
fuck you-ooh-oo (ooh ooh ooh!)
I guess this $3 million contract wasn't enough
so fuck you-ooh-oo , and fuck him too-ooh-ooh
Now if I was richer, I'd come and get ya
Ha, now ain't that some shit?
(Ain't that some shit?)
And though you're #4 in the BCS
I still wish you the best
With a...fuck you-ooh-oo (ooh ooh ooh!)
Mrs. Kass does not approve but I sure do.
If DB hasn't explored other coaching options, ie hasn't already been in contact with Harbaugh, "If I can't keep my guys/control my own staff, I'll quit," is exactly the leverage that RR has.
If he were to quit, in early January, without Brandon having a replacement in place, it would be a complete trainwreck. Other schools have already filled top positions, meaning the ranks of top flight candidates have been thinned. DB would have to embark on a frantic coaching search. The football program would look exponentially more unstable than it already does. Recruiting would collapse. Best case scenario would be Harbaugh still comes after we desperately appeal to him. Second best case would likely be Brady Hoke or someone like Charlie Strong. But the process itself would likely look much worse than it did last time.
Unless Brandon has a replacement in place, he doesn't actually have all that much leverage to force a complete defensive overhaul over RR's objections. The major loss on RR's side would be to cost himself a buyout and to put his assistants out of jobs.
RR wouldn't just cost himself a buyout from U-M if he walked away. He'd have to pay us a few mil to break the contract. I'm not sure he literally can afford to quit.
Also, I don't get the sense that Brandon would panic if we had a coaching vacancy in January, as opposed to December. Maybe it hurts recruiting a little more, but that's not the end of the world. OSU fired John Cooper in January 2001 with no replacement lined up. They obviously managed.
Wasn't aware that the buyout on his end worked that way. That does seem to limit his ability to just walk away.
I'm sure RR has to pay a buyout to break the contract. He had to at WVU (leading to the lawsuit fun), and I can't imagine we'd operate differently.
You also have to consider that if RR quits, he's not just going to waltz into another head coaching position at an elite program. How would that look, his defensive staff fields a terrible defense, Brandon tries to replace that staff and RR quits because he can't have his way? Who wants to hire a guy that does that? But then, RR sure doesn't strike me as a quitter.
DB has been talking with RR all season long, so why do we have people forgetting that and talking like and reasoning like RR has no idea what is happening?
Guys, the discussion that takes place after the season is over is likely to be a culmination of all the discussions that took place before then. A little more data, a little more knowledge of RR and team and all other stakeholders, and a chance to get some more data on who or whom is available both as a HC or DC or whatever and what they cost and whether they are interested.
Given the previous cluster$%&@ ran by Martin and Coleman, I'd think we'd prefer it this way. But hey, I don't care who the coaching staff is and who the players are, I root for my alma mater come hell or high water!
Just looking at a few simple FACTS should tell us all we need to know to "read DB's mind"
1. Our head coaching situation is definately not "settled" and "secure" based on the past 3 yrs performance on and off the field.
2. The last time we had a "coaching question" we screwed it up royally by being impatient.
3. DB has not given ANY clear indication that he intends to give RR another season.
4. DB has not given ANY clear indication that he intends to fire RR(see fact #2 for reasoning)
5. When asked directly about the head coaching job @ UM, Jim Harbaugh has NOT simply diffused the situation completely by saying those magic words. "I am not interested". He makes a general & PC statement about "coaching his team".
If its not blatantly obvious as to what is going to happen I dont know what else could make it more obvious??
The only arguement that I'd even consider viable against Harbaugh being our next coach is that he's going to go to the NFL. One must consider that NFL teams dont have to "wait until after the bowl" to actively pursue a coach AND a coach that is making the leap up to the NFL from the college level can make that statement at any time with no fear of "hurt feelings". Its a natural step up and is somewhat expected.
Maybe I'm missing something here buy from the FACTUAL information available, limited as it is, I see this as the obvious outcome. Welcome home coach Harbaugh, now lets kick some buckeye ass!!
The only arguement that I'd even consider viable against Harbaugh being our next coach is that he's going to go to the NFL.
Yeah, the fact that we already have a head coach isn't an argument. Neither is the sweetened contract extension he was offered at Stanford. It's also a fact that Harbaugh is the key to beating Ohio State.
I think you have a rather skewed view of what constitutes "facts."
The only part of my post that was known facts were the 4 points I numbered and bulleted, the rest was my "speculation" or "opinion" as it may be.
Do you feel that our head coaching situation is settled and secure? Just go ahead and type it out, say that you think there is absolutely NO controversy as to who will be our head coach next year.
To your point, I should have thrown in another FACT, that Mr. Harbaugh has indeed been offered a tasty extension by Stanford and has yet to SIGN IT. Why?? what could possibly be the reason, if he intends to stay where he is, that he wouldnt just sign on the line that is dotted and be done with it??
As far as key to beating Ohio state, hell who knows whether or not he will have an impact on that, what I do know is that RR has never even come close to being competitive against the buckeyes or any other of the top teams in the conference except for Tater's miracle against Wisc. If the FACTS were otherwise we wouldnt be having this or a thousand other conversations on the subject.
#2 is not a fact.
what I do know is that RR has never even come close to being competitive against the buckeyes or any other of the top teams in the conference except for Tater's miracle against Wisc.
Might want to check on all of that.
The NFL season isn't over yet and interim coaches have been appointed in vacancies. Harbaugh may be waiting to see if he'll get hired when the season is over...or maybe he's already waiting in the wings. He hasn't signed the Stanford contract, but he has said that he intends to do so.
Has anyone even asked him if he WANTS to come to Michigan? I'm pretty sure that sentiment is a figment of the fan base's imagination even if it's accurate. Remember the "Bob Stoops to Notre Dame" bull last year? It was said that he was a "lock" for the job...until someone decided to ask Stoops himself.
my wife asked me to clean the basement and the garage, too. I told here that I intended to do so. However, saying you are going to do something and actually getting around to do, can be two very differnt things.... I am just sayin'...
If your wife offered certain, um, compensations for cleaning the basement and garage, would you be more inclined to do so?
If she got me Michigan season football tickets, I would definitely be more inclined to do so... ;-)
Was it all a dream?? or nightmare if you will. In some parallel world were we what some would label as competitive against MSU, OSU, PSU, Wisc. in the past 3yrs?? Please tell me where this place is cuz I gotta pack my stuff and get over there!!
Sorry, I was as exicted as a school girl at the mans hiring but refuse to exempt what mine own eyes and simple straight-forward logic tells me. For reasons as varied as the spots on the sun, the past 3yrs have not been anything that resembles competitive. Using a microscope to locate and identify promising specimens within the greater body just aint my bag baby. So while some may say I'm liberal with the use of the word "facts" because by the strict scientific definition they don't hold up, by the "holy shit that girl is HOT!! and the "Damn that girl is a MINGER" criteria. Them is facts plain and simple.
Go ahead, tell me that beauty is in the eye of the beholder because if the past 3yrs has enough beauty for any of those here, I definately don't want to meet your wives.:)
-We beat Wisconsin in 2008 when they were ranked. Tate was still in high school.
-We were competitive against Ohio State and Michigan State in 2009 despite the score against OSU.
-We have beaten Notre Dame the past two years. They were ranked in 2009.
-We currently have the sixth-best offense in the nation.
-Rich Rod's record has improved every year.
-FWIW, Jim Harbaugh's first three years at Stanford have been basically identical to the last three years here. What happens if he does that again? Don't tell me people won't be calling for his head.
Using a microscope to locate and identify promising specimens within the greater body just aint my bag baby.
Then it's a good thing you're not the athletic director.
Good thing?? I dont know, after 30+ years around football(DB) I would think he wouldnt need a microscope to see if things are going well under the current leader.
Keep banging that 6th best offense drum and deluding yourself into thinking that we we just so close to beating so and so. I'll trust my eyes that have been watching Michigan football & college football in general for almost 40 years. If you dont even have a kicking game after 3 yrs what exactly do you hang your hat on as success?
That offense simply dissappears when it counts, you cannot argue that can you?? I suppose you can, once again I guess somebody must think shes pretty enough to take out. It just aint me.
"Someday we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny" but we'll cry a little and maybe throw up into our mouths.
That offense simply dissappears when it counts, you cannot argue that can you??
I wouldn't say that at all. Remember the Iowa game? Or Indiana? or Illinois? Offense was there. Defense was not.
If you dont even have a kicking game after 3 yrs what exactly do you hang your hat on as success?
Don't kid yourself. Don't act like kicking was never an issue under Carr, Moeller, or Bo.
Keep banging that 6th best offense drum and deluding yourself into thinking that we we just so close to beating so and so.
Oregon has an average defense. Auburn's may be slightly worse than average.
The truth is that you can throw a tantrum and be all UNACCEPTABLErabblerabblerabble, but we're not going to be good just because we're Michigan. To tell the truth, we've gotten incredibly lucky on several occasions in the past...most recently the emergence of Henne and Hart as freshman phenoms. What if one or both was just another freshman?
That's called progress.
You see progress, but many see a team that got worse as the season progressed.
Or, just maybe, the competition got better. Maybe we played three 11-1 teams the second half of the season. Maybe our best players got a little banged up and we have no depth for various reasons. Or maybe I'm just full of shit. Seeing as we started 3-9 in 2008, this is most definitely "progress from whence we came." I don't see how you can look at the team and tell me with a straight face that they will not be better next year.
In all seriousness, I can't disagree with things you have said even though I am a RR supporter. Disregard the fact about who would you like to coach here next year, our next coach, would you give them only three years and what is your baseline of what RR needed to do this year. I thought I remember you saying, you gave up on RR after the OSU game last year.. Is 2 years enough for anyone to prove anything?
Thanks. I like to hear different opinions. I agree, the losses this year were depressing and PSU almost ripped my heart out. I just believe that he should get to finish out next year. I went back and checked Carr's record and they were pretty good obviously. But, he had a 7-5 and 8-4 years, his worse years were preceeded by 9-3 and 9-4 years and followed by 10, 11 and 12 win seasons. Imagine if some of us spoiled fans, use to avg of 9-3 seasons, had wanted him fired. We may never have seen those 10+ win seasons. I just think one more year and the excuses should go away and let's see what happens. I know it's a stretch.
I just don't want us to get a reputation where caoches don't get a chance. I am all for a Michigan Man, but some non Michigan Men are also pretty good. If RR doesn't get his full chance, how are other coaches going to feel about coming here.
Other question I have for you is this. If you knew today that Harbaugh wasn't available or not interested, would you still not give RR another year.
but I'd fire RR even if JH was not available.
Thus turning Michigan into Notre Dame.
Does that mean you think it's a GOOD idea to fire a coach who doesn't "field a competitive team" (whatever that means...massive sliding scale) within three years to the exclusion of everything else?
This is the Notre Dame philosophy.
I remember a whole bunch of games that we won, 15 of them in total. Almost everytime I also remember saying afterwords "well we got outta there with one". Not "holy crap we owned them" or "we are so fundamentally strong its just a matter of time".
You can put lipstick on a pig.....you know the rest.
Kicking troubles?? You mean like missing one every 4 or so?? You mean like booting the kickoff only to the 7 yd line?? Yeah, we used to have all kinds of "troubles". Do you even read the crap you post?? Much less actually convince yourself that its true?? Is that you Goerge Costanza??
Throw a tantrum?? No thats what the RR supporters on this board do at the very mention that just maybe this guy really is a rube who's in over his head this time. I reserve my tantrums for my man cave during the game when I've seen enough fumbling, poor tackling, kickoff to the 20 yard line or out of bounds, missed tackle #11 for the game bullshit to drive me insane.
What you dont understand is that I was full on and all in, I really wanted to see dramatic, exciting, successfull football happen under Coach Rod, and when asked 3 years ago I'd have bet my bottom dollar that by now thats whay we'd have. Sometimes it just doesnt work out. No sense acting like some co-dependant beaten wife who just cant walk away and say enough!! I say enough, and I'll call anyone who's still just loving what they have a victim who doesnt know any better. Holding onto the few inevitable highlights as proof of progress is like the battered wife saying he hasnt hit me THIS week so things are good now.
We're 7-5 with a New Year's Day bowl. We're on the rise and have improved every year, but no...the progress isn't fast enough for you. You'd rather turn into Notre Dame.
You didn't even register my questions about Harbaugh. I'll make them more clear:
Why do you think he'll be so successful here?
Will you give him the time you didn't give Rich Rod?
What happens if Harbaugh ends up WORSE?
What's with you and the "battered wife" analogies? A little morbid and not really applicable here, dude. I don't see how the success of the football program affects you as a person in the least.
When it comes down to it, football is really about Jimmies and Joes, not Xs and Os. Rod can't go out onto the field and not fumble or tackle or catch the ball FOR them. Have you ever played sports?
P.S. I guess you really don't pay attention to the kicking game at all. cough2002cough.
Why do I think he'll be successfull here? Because he will coach the team HE HAS instead of coaching the team he dreams of having. He will stress and reinforce fundamentals of the game BEFORE trying to incorporate a 400 page playbook full of "trickery" His record at Stanford with lesser atheletes(physically) I dont just mean win/loss either, look at their turnover margins even in the years that they werent that great. Use the eye test, they dont look like a playground full of kids, they look like a TEAM.
Will I give him the time I didnt give RRod? First, I gave Rod until the MSU/PSU games this year before I made a final judgement. Second, No. Harbaugh will be given the same criteria. The eye test. How does the team look on the field of play, do they execute the most basic tennants of the game effectively and like they've been coached to do?
What happens if Harbaugh ends up worse? To quote Clark W. Griswold "Worse, how can it get any worse?, we're standing at the gates of Hell!!" But seriously, I have little doubt that with time either Rod or a new coach can only get better because if it gets worse then we need to think about downsizing the stadium.
As far as the battered wife analogies, thats just what this co-dependant and somewhat abusive relationship between some here and coach Rod reminds me of. The man has taken a once solid program and turned it upside down. Yet some have an uncanny ability to keep revising the measurement benchmarks in their own mind as if to convince themselves that it really not that bad. Yes, it is that bad. Running up 700 yards against patsies and making dramatic 2nd half runs against the prevent defense of good teams does not progress make(or at least not enough to register on my scale).
To some point, the jimmys and the joes you have need to be coached to their abilities to give the team the best shot to win any given game. Keep on bringing your dragster to laguna seca raceway and you dont think anyone is going to call you a fool?? I will.
I played Football in high school and had an interesting experience that is parallel to this somewhat. Our team went into our senior year having run nothing but pro set (I-formation) stuff. 2 games into the season we were 0-2 and clearly our offensive line was a glaring weakness, they just couldnt maintain blocks against anyone, and couldnt even BEGIN to passblock. In practice for week 3 the coach changes us to a winged T option style offense. We won 5 and lost 4 for the season but we all know we'd have gone 1-8 with the original offense. Great coaches adjust to win games for the KIDS!! and to avoid embarrassment or looking like a stubborn mule who's set on doing it only one way.
2002 was BAD(Epstien was gone if I recall) BUT...Do you really want to compare it to this season when we flat quit trying to kick?? Really??
You seem to know quite a bit about Harbaugh's coaching style (and how it differs from Rich Rod's) despite not attending practices for either. You also have a considerable amount of unwarranted confidence in this "eye test" of yours that's really nothing more than you making shit up.
The Pac-10 is a significantly weaker conference than the Big Ten regardless of what Sagarin says. I also don't think Andrew Luck nor Toby Gerhart are "physically inferior" athletes to anyone on Michigan's team.
but we all know we'd have gone 1-8 with the original offense. Great coaches adjust to win games for the KIDS
HIGH SCHOOL. That doesn't fly in college, genius.
The man has taken a once solid program and turned it upside down.
So Lloyd Carr gets a free pass for failing to recruit effectively his last few years? And all of the attrition is purely the fault of Rich Rod?
making dramatic 2nd half runs against the prevent defense of good teams does not progress make(or at least not enough to register on my scale).
According to the UFR, neither Iowa nor Wisconsin changed their defensive scheme in accordance with the score. I am very, very thankful Dave Brandon really doesn't care what you think.
We HAVE had competitive games against the top teams in the conference. It must also be taken into account that most of those teams got better over the past year as well.
Tate was still in high school for the 2008 Wisconsin game.
This guy sets a double standard...losing against a good teams is "not competitive" regardless of any game details while winning is a "miracle."
If its not blatantly obvious as to what is going to happen I dont know what else could make it more obvious??
It's not blatantly obvious, chief. You only think so because you have a preconceived notion of how this will go down, and are manipulating certain individual facts as evidence when in reality we can't possibly know the reasons why DB is doing what he's doing right now.
Here's my "blatantly obvious " take at why RR will be retained
- If DB wanted to fire RR, why wouldn't he have done so already? Doesn't waiting to fire him hurt our recruiting more than waiting to keep him?
- DB has made no indication that a coaching search is even taking place right now. Mostly because RR is still the coach.
- Um, Denard? Duh? Are you willing to sacrifice all the things done on the offensive side of the ball and another couple years of rebuilding just to see if JH can build a defense?
In reality, we have absofrikinlutely no clue what DB intends to do. Nobody can read his mind. All I can say is that he's a man of his word and when he says he's going to evaluate the coach after the bowl game, then that's what he's going to do. Plain and simple.
- If DB wanted to fire RR, why wouldn't he have done so already? Doesn't waiting to fire him hurt our recruiting more than waiting to keep him?
If we assume that Harbaugh won't be available until January, it makes perfect sense. Would you rather have no coach around for an entire month (which includes bowl preparation) or have a coach? If you think this is disrupting our recruiting, imagine what a fiasco it would be if we had no coach whatsoever.
Meanwhile, RR has no choice but to keep on recruiting - in the worst-case scenario for him (in which he's fired), he can at least build ties to kids that he might be able to lure to another school, if he lands a job. And if he were to say "The hell with it, I'm not recruiting," that would just make him look terrible, and compromise his chances of landing another job.
Throw in the fact that RR's buyout goes down by $1.5 million in January, and Brandon has plenty of reasons to keep him around until then. He can make the change after the bowl, and thus cause minimal disruption to Michigan's and Stanford's bowl preparation. And Harbaugh gets to coach the team he built up in a BCS game, which has to be a matter of pride for him.
I find the opposite conclusion (that Brandon is planning to keep RR for next year but just won't reveal it yet ) a lot harder to believe.
I don't see it. Why would Brandon need any extra leverage? And if RR is so stubborn that Brandon feels like he has to drag him over the coals to get him to figure out that what he's doing on D isn't working, why would Brandon put up with that?
We all agree that DB is a "Forward Thinker". Why would DB schedule out Alabama with a new coach, players and system etc... He wouldn't. DB is waiting becuase he is a man of values. He has built a reputation by being consistant and matter of fact, while still being flexible to the ever-changing enviroment in CFB.
With that said, DB is keeping RR right where he is. He will, however force RR to change out his DC "silver back". That is a fact. That will be enough to keep the alum, fans, and media at bay while still buying RR some time to build on his offensive foundation. RR is not going anywhere until after the 2012 season.
DB saw the improvement to the offense. He knows our D really can't get much worse. He is betting the O will improve, we'll keep our recruits and win more with the Gator Bowl showing (prediting win by the way). Brandon knows that making a change on D will do two things: 1. Keep people happy a move was made; 2. He know's we're improving next year on D, regardless of any changes. Just by getting our secondary healthy we are competitive again. We will improve, even with a new DC in place. Bottom line is, he made the change and we improved. Win-Win. Our "O" will get even better and more consistant. We will be in a good situation next year.
Dave Brandon scheduled the Alabama game before this season fully played out. I don't think he envisioned uncompetetive blowouts to Wisconsin and Ohio State to end the year, and as he said, we wouldn't be having this conversation about RR's job had the season gone differently. Besides, Alabama isn't next year - given the performance to date, can Brandon safely give RR two more full seasons without question? I don't see how that is possible. We don't yet know how next year will go.
I'm getting sick of this "Brandon is a man of values!" crap. Sticking to his timeline is for one reason only: business. Something is in play, whether its waiting for the bowl performance, waiting for another coach, or merely letting the howls of fury die down, and Brandon is not merely delaying because "he said he would." On top of that, its not a value, moral, or principle to stick with a stupid decision just because you said you would - it's just plain stupid. Enough. Either his decision is stupid because he's a stupid man, or he's delaying it for some purpose.
As for improvement on the defense, isn't it pretty damning that the best case for them getting better is, "well, it really can't be any worse?" That is also one hell of an assumption to make - we all said it at the end of last year about the defense, and look what happened. See also, special teams.
Sadly, it seems that's the been the refrain after the last couple of seasons with the defense but yet the defense doesn't get any better.
so following along with this mentality, what happens if RR can't deliver next year and DB has to fire RR next year and the new coach then has his first game in blue against BAMA. I don't think one game 1 year and 9 months away can be used as a ltmus test to predict the future of our coaching situation.
And of course, we can always cancel the game if need be. We're not going to let one game hold a gun to our head.
You can't really assume that certain recruits go elsewhere because of DB's schedule. It's a factor, but nobody can say with any certainty how big of one it is unless the kids come out and say it. And Brandon's said repeatedly that he evaluates ALL of the universities coaches/programs after their seasons, regardless of the coaches contractual situation, nothing unusual about him doing it, only unusual that it's so hyped this year.
What is unusual though is that he is seemingly the only AD to do things this way - most other programs going through a coaching change (or lack thereof) settled the matter as quickly as possible and moved on. By dragging it out, it invites rampant speculation and uncertainty, for fans, media, and especially recruits.
that if Brandon has chosen a new coach (and if he's decided to fire RR, I've got to believe that's happened), that coach might already have a DC who he'll bring with him. If Brandon has decided to keep RR, either or both of them may have already contacted a DC and they don't want to announce the hire until after Michigan's and the other coach's bowl game.
My take on this whole situation is that DB already knows what he will do. A win in the bowl (IMHO) will ensure that the GERG is gone as well as a few others but RR will stay. A loss will ensure that RR packs his stuff the same day as the GERG. I do feel that in the event of a coaching change DB already has his new guy lined up and on board. Whether that s JH or someone else I am not sure.
As far as the loss of the good DCs that are out there in waiting so long I think you should look at it from a different point of view. At that point all of the competetion for the guys that we want will be over and the contracts will all be signed, so all that we will have to do is offer enough money to sway them.
I really do think that DB knows what he is doing and has nothing but the best interest of the university in mind.
Having a new coach on board, but waiting for the results of the bowl are mutually exclusive unless that potentially new head coach is incredibly desperate. Why would anyone agree to "Well, we're giving the guy on his way out one more chance, but if he screws it up, you are totally hired! In the mean time, hang tight, because if he's successful in this one particular endeavor, he'll keep his job and you can go back to where you came from."
As for the other competition for DC's being gone.. thats just not how things work. No matter how much money Michigan waves at a DC they want, I very much doubt that any would leave a job that they just took, but hadn't even started yet. Out of this whole mess, the safest assumption that can be made so far is that a coach or coordinator who has already taken a new job in the last month will decidedly NOT be coming to Michigan.
Who exactly are these mythical DC's that are no longer available? Muschamp? Sorry, wasn't going to leave a head coach in waiting for a DC at Michigan. Same goes for any other DC that made the jump to head coach.
I agree with you, I was responding to:
"As far as the loss of the good DCs that are out there in waiting so long I think you should look at it from a different point of view. At that point all of the competetion for the guys that we want will be over and the contracts will all be signed, so all that we will have to do is offer enough money to sway them."
I actually can't see ANY DC with any level of success really wanting to come here, knowing that he has one year to turn things around. Michigan has the money to make it rain, but it might be the most doomed job out there.
This is just amazing. Our ability hash and rehash the same points is seemingly endless. I think LilPenny said it best the other day on a post when he referred to us as being "a fanbase in a circular firing squad since November" on this issue.
Sorry for the interruption.
can speculate all we want but it really is pointless since we all know for sure that DB is not going to say anything until after the bowl game. I for one am going to enjoy the holiday a nice Michigan victory over Mississippi State on January 1st, and then will wait for the decision. We may never actually know DB's true reasons behind his decision.
Then suggest you stay out of these threads and wait for the actual events.
more DB and coaching change threads from being started. That's all.
but as unpopular as many here find the thought, there really are 1.5M reasons why there is a delay. As well, if there is a change, the next coach i'm sure doesn't want anything upsetting his current team bowl prep.
It is virtually impossible to explain away the delay and keeping the current staff, as unpopular as that thought is(thought= replacing HC). If DB keeps RR and most of the staff, he has damaged recruiting for this season and the following unless he gives RR an extension. If he doesn't, we'll be right back here next year. The delay will creat much doubt in the minds of 17-18 yr olds and their parents.
Yes, the offense racked up yards and moved the ball at some point against every team. Other than that there isn't much to hang your argument on.
This team was not competitve against any team in the top half of the conference. We did make a comeback against Iowa, but that already out of reach. Don't be fooled by any of the OSU games, Tressel is a good sport, he took his foot off the gas in the third quarter the last two years. Those games weren't even close.
Is there progress, from a purely numerical standpoint? Yes. From a being better against good competition standpoint, absolutely not. Michigan was better against the top half of the conference last year than this year.
Bottom line, going 0-for against the top half of the conference and the only in-conference win against a team with a winning record was the mess against Ilinois. The kids play hard and never quit, it's admirable, but that is not enough to warrant more time on its own.
You fail to take into account the improvement of other teams. The teams that beat us last year also improved by a decent amount. This is a stronger conference than last year. Three 11-1 teams.
We did make a comeback against Iowa, but that already out of reach.
Already out of reach? Is that a joke? That comeback was more than possible.
The kids play hard and never quit, it's admirable, but that is not enough to warrant more time on its own.
So what do we do, fire the players? I don't understand this statement.
You certainly would not expect to field much of a defense in the Gator Bowl if the entire defensive staff has been notified that they will not be returning and are busy out looking for new jobs not to mention ignoring recruiting.
If GERG doesn't realize that he's a goner, he's dumber than The Beaver.
One of the things that always gets me about those trying to give all (or at least the vast majority) of the blame for 2008 to RichRod is they say that major programs don't fall apart overnight. They never go from winning a ton of games to completely missing out on a bowl the next year. Uh...this season's Texas would like a word with all of you. I'm firmly of the belief that there wasn't a single coach running any system that was gonna win many more games with that 2008 team. And not just because Mallett, Manningham, and Arrington were all gone from the team (and the reasons for that have been discussed to death, so let's just avoid that one for now). Who was on the defense? Who was gonna block on the offensive side?
EDIT: And yes, this is my first post despite the fact that I've had this account pretty much all season, and have been lurking for some time before that.