"The Doc" = Harbaugh
"Alive" = Available
"The Doc" = Harbaugh
"Alive" = Available
The argument against: He could be our own version of Jim Tressell?
HOW MANY I-AA CHAMPIONSHIPS HAS HOKE WON????
Hoke has won in two situations that traditionally do not win (Ball State and SDSU). No he hasn't won any national championships but he's clearly shown the ability to find a way in some pretty adverse conditions.
That said, he's clearly a second option behind Harbaugh.
I guess, in my mind, the question is, whom would you rather have at this point, Rodriguez or Hoke? Or, rephrased, would you rather go in another direction at this point or give RR one more chance. After Wisconsin, I would have said, for sure staythe course and just replace the defensive staff. After Ohio State I was 50/50. Now I'm pretty convinced that RR's offense just can't beat a good defense. Face it, our highly regarded offense really got manhandled by the good, physical defenses we played (Iowa, MSU, Wiscy, OSU, MissSt.). At this point, the list of coaches I would want to switch to has grown exponentially from where it was after each of the last three games. I really don't care so much that we lost the last three, but the fact that the offense, which was supposed to be the part of the team that DID work, got run in each game gives me little to no belief that RR can make it work.
If a true sophmore first-year starting QB hasn't learned by now, he never will. There is no chance he ever wins the Heisman, so peace.
our team is young. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but it is still relevant. Still! That MSU squad that manhandled us yesterday started all sorts of juniors and seniors with not a freshman to be seen. How many freshman and sophomores did we start yesterday? Next year will be a better indicator whether the offense is effective against the upper tier in the Big Ten; at least we'll be fielding more juniors and sophomores.
True for the defense, but read the comment. I expect (sadly) the defense and special teams to fail and yes they are young. All I looked for in the last three games was the offense. I wanted to see if they could score against good teams and they couldn't and no, with the exception of Denard they're not THAT young. There are quite a few juniors with three years of playing experience under their belt. I didn't expect a win in any of those three games but I want to see more than 2 TD's vs MissSt and one versus Ohio State.
As per Denard, yes, this is his first year starting, I'm happy to give him a free ride but as a SYSTEM, I'm not seeing it. The system is not completely one player. No running back emerged, the receivers dropped a ton of balls. But what concerned me is that strong defenses managed to find a way to bottle up Denard's ability to run which is what the SYSTEM is predicated on. Although he's a young his running is as good as its going to get and he had a FAIRLY experienced and pretty decent line in front of him. Again, its not so much an indictment of Denard as it is the belief that a good defense can slow down this offense as we've seen it.
I respect your opinion, I just happen to disagree.
I respect your opinion but I disagree. We need a run threat besides Denard. Smith isn't the guy, at least not an every down back. RR's offense has beaten teams from other, good conferences.
over and over i hear people say "see, i knew this offense wouldn't work in the big 10". It's not the OFFENSE!!! sure, we only put up 14 today, but roundtree dropped TWO surething 4th down TD passes. that's not the offense. it's not the coaches. it's a player not making an easy play. he's had some big games, but he's dropped more easy passes then i've ever seen. roundtree's drops coupled with bad kickers had us leaving 20+ pts on the field today.
It's the D that sucks and hasn't gotten any better. That's RR's albatross.
i'm optimistic that this young O would be great under RR. practically everyone's back. but i'm pretty convinced now that we won't see it.
if we don't get harbaugh and don't retain RR, I hope we hire a guy like Trgovich (sp) and hope he hires a spread OC to keep the players we have on O.
I don't think Hoke necessarily = doom, but the argument against him is a simple one:
In his head coaching career, he has one season (a 12-1 year at Ball State) that would be considered very good at Michigan. And that's at Ball State and San Diego State. His career record is 47-50. At Ball State and San Diego State.
Basically, there's nothing in his track record that says he'll be a success here.
Frankly, the ONLY reason he's even being discussed is because he was previously an assistant at Michigan, and that seems like a pretty weak reason to put him in charge when there are numerous better candidates, including the guy who is still the coach.
I heard that BH and DB are fairly good friends. DB thinks highly of BH, so it would not surprise me if he's on DB short list if we lose out of JH. I would rather keep RR if JH is not available.
Bo Schembechler came off a 7-3 season at Miami (OH) to coach Michigan. The saying was Schembechler who? when he was hired.
However, Bo took over a John Pont led Miami team that had gone 8-2 the last season.
Maybe a better example: Gene Chizik struggled at Iowa State (5-19, I believe) before being hired at Auburn, but he quickly put together an outstanding set of coordinators (Gus Malzahn and Ted Roof), which IMO is the single most important decision a non-coordinator head coach makes.
This is why I don't think Hoke necessarily = doom. If he hires a great staff, he could be fine -- and his staff of Al Borges and Rocky Long is fairly impressive considering it's San Diego State.
So ... there are guys who have succeeded at big programs despite not having a great track record when they took over. But that's not a good reason to hire one.
Chizik is exactly the guy I've thought of to make an analogy.
... is that the Tigers figured out how to best the MSU (NNTMSU) bid for Cam Newton of $188,000 without a paper trail.
Is this GC in the hoodie?
Potenital coaching change.... We should consider these guys, in this order...
1) Jim Harbaugh
2) Chris Peterson
3) Gary Patterson
4) Lou Holtz
5) Wanyne Fontes
6) Brady Hoke
+1 just for the Wayne Fontes reference. Awesome!
A complete shot in the dark vs. a coach whom the 49ers have publicly stated is their "Option A." Tough call right there.
Opinion: KILL IT WITH FUCKING FIRE
Hoke would be fine. But Urban Meyer will come if we start enough rumors about it.
Harbaugh or RRod..
People mention Hoke only for his Michigan ties. There are plenty of other coaches that deserve a shot before Hoke.
I wonder how many people know where the term "Michigan Man" came from.
Sorry don't have the input you are looking for, but you describe a lot of the attributes that RR had coming here (with exception to being on UM staff previously), but he was in a better conference doing some great things.
I thought it was coined in reference to another SDSU coach.
Rich Rodriguez is a better coach with a better resume. You don't fire him so you can get the guy who went 8-4 at San Diego State.
If Brady Hoke had been hired by Michigan in 2008, do you think that the team would have done better, worse or the same as 3-9, 5-7 and 7-6 over the next three seasons? Just curious.
I'd assume the transition would have been a lot smoother (more Carr assistants retained, less drastic culture change, etc.), fewer guys (Boren, Threet, maybe Clemons) leave, and you don't have the upheaval and in-fighting that I think sank in mid-season 2008 when folks realized this wasn't a typical Michigan team and could sort of tune out the new guys and blame it all on them. There was still a big decline in talent coming and major structural issues with the roster (like not having any safeties) that Hoke would eventually have struggled dealing with just like Rodriguez has.
I definitely wouldn't be as excited about the future of the program as I am right now though.
Agree with you that initially there would have been less of a transition, but even the 6-6 season or whatever would have followed would have had a lot more pitchfork sales than even Rich had. Not sure how the next two would go, because we'll never know about recruiting and all that. But the environment would have been tough for any Lloyd assistant.
As for excited about the future....I admire that when most everyone else is giving up on their convictions after a horrid bowl loss, you're sticking to them, and going down with the ship. As long as you realize at this point the water is just about up to your chin.
Three years ago we lost to a 3-9 Toledo team. At home. If there is water in the boat now it is because it takes a while to dry off after you hit the bottom of the fucking ocean. The fact that so many people have decided that now, after two years of steady improvement and with basically the whole young team returning next year, is the time to bail boggles my mind.
Steady improvement? Do you mean like going from 1-2 vs ranked teams in 2008, to 1-4 vs ranked teams in 2009, to 1-5 vs ranked teams in 2010. Or are you talking about a combined 0-7 vs. MSU, OSU, and bowl games? Or were you referring to how U-M has scored a total of 24 points vs. Ohio State in the last three years. Maybe you're referring to they led the conference in fumbles for a third straight year. Or maybe it's how his defenses have gone from #67 in 2008, to #82 in 2009, to #107 in 2010. Or maybe it's how U-M has absolutely no kicking game whatsoever. Maybe it's how all of Michigan's six losses were by double digits, including the last three by 20, 30 and 38. I mean, seriously. Why would anybody want to bail on this guy with all this improvement?!? Talk about boggling the mind....
So this is what three years of "steady improvement" have wrought: we finished the season with the worst bowl loss in school history, six losses overall, a losing Big Ten record (in a year in which the conference wasn't very good), and zero votes in the polls (let alone a top 25 ranking). Well this certainly is what we were all expecting three years ago, right?
I hadn't noticed.
Still sounds a lot better to me than 3-9. I'm pretty sure we could have taken Toledo this year too. But then again, I guess improvement means something different when you are just pissed the football team you like didn't win more games.
This is what Michigan football has come to under Rich Rodriguez?
That says it all.
We you go from smelling like dog poo to cat poo, it's an improvement. But you'll never be an appealing aroma.
Sorry, but TBE had an excellent post that sums it up.
cherry picked stats. Improvement is all relative. I could throw a ton of stats together suggesting we made huge strides (Offensive POY, 3-0 against ND, increased B10 wins, huge improvement in offensive rankings in yards, points, however you want to measure it)
The fact is it's not cut and dried either way. As a whole, I don't believe we've made huge improvement over the last 3 years because while the offense has improved, the defense has actually (statistically) regressed.
There are still VERY legitimate arguments in favor of keeping RR. It's just that the weight of those arguments is a little less after each bad loss.
Just get them right, or at least pick good ones.
2-1 vs. ND. 2, 1, 3 Big Ten wins. (And I'd like to see those points rankings after the last 4 games....)
I posted this in another thread, but if Hoke had replaced Carr we probably would have gone 5-7, 5-7, 6-6, and Hoke would have been fired after this season. The offense would have been DeBord's system with Threet and our current underwhelming RBs, the defense would have had the same talent/experience issues it has now, and recruiting probably would have been worse than it was under RR.
Perhaps, but the question about Hoke now is not how he would have done when RR was hired. The question is how he will do if he is hired now. Fundamentally different questions.
I didn't know hoke is such a lack-wit that he has no ability to win games at any level. Just because he doesn't run a run option spread doesn't mean he runs deboard's super vanilla offense. And why would we have the same underwhelming rb's that we have now? Hoke would have recruited 1000 slot ninjas and small rb's for a deboard vanilla?
That is some serious logic fail and posts like that make me think you hate hoke just to hate him.
Can you come up with any statement supported by logic instead of blind hatred?
I don't hate Hoke at all, I'm just not that impressed with him and I think we have better options. What recruits do you think Hoke would have gotten that Rodriguez didn't get? You think he would have gotten a difference-maker at RB that Rodriguez completely ignored?
I think pretty much any coach would have struggled to win here the last 3 years. Hoke might be acceptable if RR were to quit and we were unable to land any A-list coaches.
to bash hoke for his vanilla offense but then say he would have had the same rb's as rr has. He would not have recruited the same rb's or many of the same other players. He would have re recruited "prostyle" players instead of spread players.
He's the Great White Hoke!
For the faint of heart.
and loved where the offense was going and the potential chaos we could wreak on the B1G, but after that bowl game and the whole B1G season, I have lost faith in the experiment and would like to see a change NOW.
Regardless, I have faith (or is it just hope?) in DB's leadership and the purpose behind his month-long waiting period on the coaching staff following the close of the regular season.
If Brady Hoke wasnt a previous assistant at UM, his name would not be mentioned. If DB plans on firing RR, he better make sure he gets the right guy. If JH goes pro and DB still wants to fire RR, then he better open up the pocket book and get a coach who is a proven winner a la Stoops or Patterson, just to name a few.
Gary Patterson is not leaving TCU. Can we stop talking about it? Maybe we can talk about CHris Peterson. That is more likely to happen and I would like to have him much more than Hoke. Peterson wins big games even when he shouldn't. He finds a way. Well, with one exception I guess but I can't blame him for missed chipshots with a well above average kicker.
I’ve said in the past M needs to go down there and learn that 4-2-5 or steal on of there up and coming assistants. Then M is only a LB away from being a 4-3 team vs. Pro style teams. Too late now, hopefully DB can get the band back together.
I'm all for Hoke. Ball State and SDSU he turned from losing records into solid bowl-bound teams. Also he is a GREAT recruiter (he recruited Tom Brady to Michigan). Also,he is a strong defensive mind. And he said he'd coach Michigan for free. The guy is a great coach with a burning passion for Michigan. I'm not saying he should be hired over JH, but I think he will be a great coach somewhere, hopefully at Michigan.
every coach is called a "great recruiter." It's like Lloyd describing David Cone's spring practice.
In my mind, I separate the top recruiters (Saban, Meyer, Mack Brown) from the rest. But I promise you that any guy we hire will have the label of a "great recruiter."
I agree with what your saying, but one thing that really jumps out at me is the fact that Hoke recruited Brady to Michigan. In my mind, that makes him a great recruiter.
You cannot possibly be this dense.
It's the same way Doug Dutch and Walter Cross always "had a tremendous spring."
"I think he will be a great coach somewhere"
If you describe someone as being a "great coach" in the future tense, it's not a ringing endorsement f how he coaches now.
He's a great recruiter because he may have been involved in recruiting Tom Brady? You have to remember that...
1) There weren't any recruiting services back then, so who knows how highly-touted Brady was as a recruit, and
2) Brady was rather "meh" in college, especially compared to his current NFL success. He was a back up for 2 years, and then split time with Henson. He even went to a sports psychologist and considered transferring over his lack of playing time.
He probably would've been a "Mike Hart" 3 star.
Agree with your general sentiments especially regarding the change in the last decade in recruiting services with the growth of the internet. But just wanted to mention that it is normal for all top athletes to work with sports psychologists and Michigan is lucky to have one of the best in Greg Harden. He is truly one of the usung heroes of the athletic department and had quite a lot to do with Charles Woodson's progression both on and off the field. I would even say that neither Tom Brady or Charles Woodson would have realized the success that they've had without Greg's help.
ultimately starting every game in the 1998 and 1999 seasons under Michigan head coach Lloyd Carr. During his first full year as starter, he set Michigan records for most pass attempts and completions in a season (214). Brady was All-Big Ten (honorable mention) both seasons and team captain his senior year. The Wolverines won 20 of 25 games when he started and shared the Big Ten Conference title in 1998. Brady capped that season with a win over Arkansas in the Citrus Bowl. In the 1999 season, Brady led Michigan to an overtime win in the Orange Bowl over Alabama, throwing for 369 yards and four touchdowns.
your point #2 cut and paste from wikipedia was selective to your argument.
Compared to his exceptional NFL career, I think it's safe to say Brady's college career wasn't all that amazing. That's all I'm saying. Is that even possible to argue? I'm not saying he was even bad or average in college; he was good - but not exceptional. He was a 6th round draft pick. The point I was making was that Brady more than likely wasn't a huge recruiting coup for Hoke coming out of HS. Again, he wasn't a lousy recruit, but definitely not someone that should be single-handidly carrying someones reputation as a recruiter for over a decade.
Everything in #2 is likely common knowledge among people on this blog; it was not "cut and pasted." Whether or not it was from Wikipedia is largely irrelevant even if it had been.
" I think he will be a great coach somewhere, "
Isn't that the kind of thing girls say to blow off mediocre guys?
I think at this point if Harbaugh rejects us we'd have to look at him. Keeping Rodriguez isn't an option after today.
I just don't see any possible way that RR comes back after today's game. All of Michigan's six losses were by double digits. The last three were by 20, 30 and 38.
I was at the game and Mississippi State absolutely had its way against Michigan. They could do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. I'm sure that DB has seen enough.
Yeah, the worst part is Mississippi State isn't anywhere near an elite team. It just showed how far away we are in year 3. Watching the ND-Miami game the announcers reported a really interesting quote by Brian Kelly, which was something like, "I can manufacture offense, I recruit for defense." I love Rodriguez and wish him the best, but it's pretty clear his early recruiting sold out to convert our offense and with the attrition our defense has completely cratered. And while our offense has undeniably looked good this year, given the number of scholarships we've dedicated to running back and slot receiver and how Denard's running opens things up, it's disappointing that we haven't unearthed an all Big Ten caliber guy at either position. I don't feel good about giving up on Rodriguez, it's going to be a painful transition back, but ultimately today just showed we're in an untenable transition long term with him as HC. If we give him another year it's another year of uncertainty with recruiting etc. with no guaranteed payoff. Today showed we're at least a year from good under Rodriguez and we ultimately want to be better than good. We want to be and have the resources to be elite.
I heard this exact same quote from Kelly and thought of the same thing. In fact, I feel like I could just copy your post and repost it as my own feelings. But I won't. I'll just give you +1.
Ball State and San Diego State are not Michigan. Not big enough for the program, etc.
I think we could do worse. I think he "get's it" and would come in with the understanding of Michigan and what it takes to be successful here. Likely to surround himself with former players and coaches to rebuild the brand. Which is what Brandon is likely looking for. I'm sure that within 2 years here we look like "Old Michigan" and maybe that's what scares everyone too. Old Michigan was consistant, not awesome.
Don't question where the guy's from if he can coach. Although I hate to say it, OSU plucked a pretty damn good coach out of Youngstown St. The program he's from doesn't make a coach, just like hiring from a big program doesnt mean the coach will be succesful (RR)
At Youngstown St and was a proven winner who deserved a shot at the big time... has BH accumulated similar credentials??
I don't remember numbers exactly, but during joe pa's 400th, they showed wins by school. We were in the top 5, 11 behind osu. That included rr's 3 year debacle. That says consistently great.
People like Harbaugh and Gary patterson are guys you fire your current coach for after 3 years. Hoke, is a guy that you hire after five+ years of mediocrity and looking to bring in some new blood. That's the Tressel route.
Hoke can coach. People don't like him because he looks like a squatter, less attractive version of Mike Golic. He loves Michigan and would do well here.
He seems like a nice guy.
+1 for the Tommy Boy reference.
Gene Chizik went 5-19 in two seasons at Iowa State before he was hired at Auburn. The Auburn fans were livid about the hire at the time but it seems to have worked out pretty well for them.
The next hire will be as much about football philosophy and cultural fit as it will be about a resume. Brady Hoke probably has some kind of relationship with DB because of his history with Michigan football. If DB thinks that he's a good fit, that could go a long way (regardless of his record at Ball State or SDSU).
Gene Chizik is the product of having Scam Newton on the team. I have my doubts they're gonig to be beating Alabama and LSU once he declares for the draft this year.
& Gus Malzahn...
but if newton stays they are great again next year and if we get rid of rodriguez denard transfers to auburn, sits out a year, and auburn goes 12-0 for 4 straight years
So we hire Hoke and drop $250,000 on a player to get the Chizik coaching rise from 7 wins to a title shot?
Look its Jimmy or bust for us. Everyone of us knows if we don't get him Rich should stay. Jimmy is the only guy that will get 85% percent of our fan base “All In” the other 15 percent will tell you to sit down for Hoke.
We need a tough guy like JH to come here and shut people up that are in the shadows. Yes I'm looking at you scientist!
You drop $250,000 on his father, and then it's not your fault.
Though more seriously, if all it took was a superstar QB, we'd be playing for the National Title too.
it is irellevant what to think of him. He is a good coach, but would need to have to rise to a Patterson level dominance for a long time before even being considered.
He may have been a good candidate for Indiana. For M, he's not in that league yet, if ever.
Reason 1: Not a "Michigan Man", born in Dayton, Ohio.
Reason 2: Did not play football for Michigan, for Bo, Mo or Lloyd.
Reason 3: Overall head coaching record YTD is 47-50.
Reason 4: Too much finger-pointing going on:
Reason 5: Stan Parrish was better.
Three winning seasons in eight years of coaching. Since when was that allowable at Michigan? Rod already has him beat with a winning season in his 3rd year. Took Hoke five. let's see him actually win over a long stretch at one school befroe he gets crowned. At least Tressel was regularly winning titles at Youngstown St. before gonig to the big leagues.
1. He coached at Michigan, that makes him a Michigan man
2. Carr never played at Michigan and he was a damn good coach
3. So what about his records? He came in to a Ball St. program that was 4-8 his first year to a 12-1 team: SDSU ws 4-8 hs first year, then 9-4. He turns programs around
I agree. SDSU was terrible for many years before Hoke arrived. Ball State has not been good since he left. He almost beat TCU. I think it is crazy to suggest he couldn't do well at Michigan. At least we know he gets the culture here. It wouldn't be an odd fit from that perspective.
Then why do most anti-RR folks say he isn't a Michigan man? He is. And he's improving the team every season, after losing key players to transfers and graduation in 2008 on both sides of the ball.
Oh, and Lloyd was also part of the Michigan coaching staff for FOURTEEN YEARS before becoming head coach. it took him almost 30 years of his coaching career to get the call to be Michigan's head coach. And yet, Hoke gets it handed to him for being a Michigan assistant for seven years, and not even being associated with the program for eight.
Pretty sure at that point, "Michigan man" goes out the window and it's about resume, which Hoke doesn't have.
You seriously are still in favor of this guy as our coach? There hasn't been ANY improvement. If you've ever watched a Michigan game in these last 3 years, you would be able to tell the are a poorly coached team. Guys don't know where they're supposed to be, and we get stupid penalties. Our defense has gotten worse. So what if our record's improving these last 3 years, our team is not and will not under RR. We lost to OSU 42-7 in RR's 1st year and 37-7 in his 3rd. We're not going anywhere as a program. We need a new coach and you'd be an ignorant, close minded fn to think otherwise after today's game,
"There hasn't been ANY improvement."
"you'd be an ignorant, close minded fn"
Definition of "takes one to know one" right here.
And he's improving the team every season
Oh, really? There are three phases of the game: offense, defense, and special teams. Please enlighten me as to how RR has improved this team on defense and special teams, if you don't mind.
1. So I guess Rich Rod was a Michigan Man the day after he was hired?
2. I have no idea what this point is...Carr didn't play at Michigan, and I liked him, ergo, everyone who didn't play at Michigan, I like
3. Since when is going 9-4 at a program like San Diego St. something to brag about? I mean why don't we sign up Bill Stewart, I hear he's going to be available, and he went 9-3 at an AQ school.
lot of michigan men in dayton, ohio. doesn't matter where you are born. currently roundtree and shaw are from dayton. brandon harrison was from dayton.
If Harbaugh doesn't come I will kidnap his baby.
I wonder if there are any big name coaches who will let DB know they are interested if JH decides to coach the 49ers. I think if JH is not hired a few top name coaches out there may be interested in the Michigan job. We could all be surprised by who shows up here if DB has decided to let RR go.
like who? The only one that sticks out is Les Miles off the top of my head.
Mack Brown I don't think will coach after Texas and there's zero reason for him to leave.
I'd rather keep RR than go with Big Game Bob.
Urban Meyer could become the Brett Favre of CFB coaches and TBH I'm not entirely opposed to him coming here.
I honestly can't think of another big name candidate. Maybe Randy Edsall?
Looking at non-CFB guys we have Gruden. Call it retarded but I love him too much on MNF. I listened to him today without Jaws for a bit and he's so much better. But he turned down fun in the sun and a low pressure job at Miami. Why he would come here, I have no idea.
Dungy would be awesome and a local guy but that's never gonna happen.
If DB doesn't have his plan completely mapped out after a month of preparation, then he is just as culpable as RR is for M's poor preparation for yesterday's bowl game. If DB is not 95+% certain right now as to what is going to happen, then he is a failed executive. But I don't think he is.
Because he has ties to Lloyd, so gosh, all his staff was so laughable, because DeBord wasn't great, so they all must have been yuk yuk. But not all coaches have the same rep. If you're saying Harbaugh or Hoke (which, really, is ANYBODY?) then sure Harbaugh has done more. For the same reason, if you really feel like going that way (you meaning Brandon) there's probably not much reason not to stick with Rich another year, see if his track record pre-Michigan can finally show up at Michigan, and if you still want Brady, get him then. He, unlike Harbaugh, will be available. If for some reason you think the situation with Rich is untenable, because of what you've seen behind the scenes, and JH doesn't want to come here, for whatever reason, then he's a real candidate. Would we bet better off trying to get a Patterson, or someone like that? Sure. But as we saw last time, and from many a ND coaching search, writing a big check doesn't mean you automatically steal some other name coach. If that doesn't work, we could do worse than Hoke. The truth is, nobody knows how any of these guys will do, because everyone thought Rich Rod was a knock it out of the park pick, and it's been 3 disastrous years. So who knows?
Randy Edsall should be getting some love IMO.
I see what you're getting at with the way his team is playing tonight, but I can't get past the image of his team getting pasted in the Big House a few months ago.
Randy Edsall and the other UCONN coaches didn't have the benefit of film on Denard 2.0, (they would have probably been better served had they watched film of RR coaching Pat White). Later "good teams" pretty well found a way to at least slow Denard, and make him less effective.
In all honesty, I think the biggest reason this board widely feels that Hoke = DOOM is because Brian said so.
Hoke has a better resume then Moeller or Carr did when they got the job. His trajectory at the jobs he's had is very similar to those of Harbaugh and Rodriguez. Take over a down trodden team, struggle for a year and then start to make serious progress towards upper echelon conference finishes / titles. Hoke has done it twice at FBS schools where Harbaugh and Rodriguez have done it once, but also have success at lower level schools. The thing separating Harbaugh / Rodriguez and Hoke is that the former have done it in a BCS conference.
Are there other "big names" out there that would be better than Hoke? Probably, but to write him off as a ridiculous possibility doesn't really make any sense to me.
It took five seasons for Hoke to field a winning team at Ball State (7-6). No doubt SDSU had a nice 2010 season, though.
I hard he went 11-2 at bsu.
In Hoke's sixth (and final) season, Ball State went 12-1 under his direction, winning 12 straight before losing to Buffalo in the MAC Championship Game. He then left for SDSU before BSU's bowl game (which they lost).
His actual record is why he shouldn't be a viable candidate. Yet.
He takes over shitty teams and he's supposed to win his first year? Cfb is all what have you done for me lately. Hoke improves terrible teams.
RR has arguably made michigan worse since he came here. The team is getting butt-hurt against any decent team in 3 years. People around here were debating if the mnc's were going to start this year or next.
I've supported rr until yesterday, saying all he would need is a non-first year starting qb and a new dc, but nobody seems to be progressing.
He would not have a clue on how to use our current roster. The next three years would make the last three seem like a stroll through Disney World.
He wouldn't know how to use a successful offensive line with four returning starters? He wouldn't know how to use two quarterbacks with a year of starting experience or another who was considered the top QB in his high school class? He wouldn't know how to use four receivers (two of the slot and two of the outside variety) with multiple years of experience? Maybe you were saying that he won't be able to match the defensive output of the last three years?
To be very clear and plain, he would have no clue how to use Denard or any of the myriad offensive weapons that we have acquired and trained for the past three years to run the spread offense. It is agreed by all that the defense is a rebuild at this point. With Hoke, the offense would be as well as it is retooled to run schemes that Hoke comrehends.
At least with Harbaugh, I believe he would be able to use the weapons available to him on offense in a coherent manner.
I'm not sure our current staff knows how to use them.
Even if we played D, 14 points will not cut it. Whenever, we ran into a good D the Offense disappeared. Case closed.
Roy Roundtree singlehandedly made sure it was only 14 points by dropping two of the most insanely easy passes I have ever seen. Not that it would have changed the game's outcome, but still, just sayin'.
Are you an expert on hoke and his capabilities? I haven't seen him coach or more importantly talked to him about offensive philosophy. Its god to have someone oin here who knows him so well.
SDSU was a spread team before Hoke took over including their 2008 season. Y1 with Hoke was 4-8 with shitty players left over from Chuck Long. Y2 was this year's 8-4 making Hoke 13-12 (including bowl game) with a former spread offense. I think he could do the same or better with higher caliber athletes.
Being a good head coach is more about getting the players and personnel in place to win than x's and o's imho. X's aand O's are the coordinator and position guys. This is why I think of RR as a great OC and a head-coach-in-training. Shafer has gotten it done before and after AA. GERG was fail before and has certainly been fail at AA.
No offense, but I am not looking to 4-8 for next season. That would be unacceptable. I would rather proceed with RR, and a new defensive coordinator who is allowed to bring in his own position coaches.
I don't think anybody goes 4-8 with the athletes we have (or may have). That was the point of my post. I don't think just because we change systems we go back to that again. Hoke transitioning SDSU from the spread shows that he has experience doing just that and it wouldn't be 4-8 again.
I think with a good coach not named RR we go 6-6 or 7-5 with the kids we have now...assuming the DC doesn't have a flowing maine of perfect hair.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think 4-8 is probably a good estimate of what you would get out of him if he tried to transform this team next year to his system. In other words, disaster. He would have better talent at his disposal, but would be up against much more severe competition that he is used to at SDSU or Ball St.
Coach Rodriguez, is that you? Man, no wonder your teams underperform - you spend way too much time posting here.
First of all, Tom Brady, despite my man crush on him, was not all that in HS. IIRC, he wasn't exactly a prized recruit.
Gene Chizik was also on the Auburn staff that went undefeated and got hosed out of a chance to play for the NC. He also co-DCed (along with GERG I believe?) the 2005 Texas sqaud. Despite his failures at ISU (it's ISU for crissakes, how they're in a BCS conference I don't know) he had a damn fine resume. As for the whole Cam Newton ordeal, you still have to get out there every gameday and execute. All the money in the world can't make you do that.
That said, I'm hesitant to give Hoke the job. I don't know enough about him or his offensive schemes but I'd rather give RR and Denard with another year under the belt a shot before him.
Brady was something like the #10 pro-style QB in the country in one of the rankings. He probably would have been a four-star recruit in today's system.
He left his alma mater, a place where he was successful and loved. He gave that up to be a part of something bigger. RRod is a Michigan Man.
would take responsibility for his errors and deficiencies. RR has not ever, not once, done that. There are problems with execution. There are problems with the defense. There are oh so many problems that have nothing to do with he or his vaunted offensive staff.
I am sick of it.
I think the reason Brandon says Beilein is a stand up guy, is that Beilien is a stand up guy. He takes responsibility when it's necessary. He's innovative, but responsible. He understands offense and defense. Granted, easier in basketball than football.
Rodriguez is the opposite. He accepts no personal responsibility. He's a decent coach. He's a great offensive coordinator. Of all the football teams in America, we are maybe the last program that can afford an offensive coordinator as its head coach.
A head coach, must and will be, more than gap blocking assignments on the o line. It's about the team. The Team. THE TEAM.
Where does the THE TEAM include the coach blaming players every tough game about the lack of execution? Maybe a couple times. Maybe a game or two. Its every stinkin' game we lose.
Good luck at Clemson. I wish you well.
I look forward to the Fighting Harbaughs next year.
Players seem to love him and respect him. Do you know some gushy details about RR that the rest of us don't know? Does he eat aborted fetuses for dinner? Does he tell his players that if they don't perform "he'll send them back to the ghetto to get shot like their homies"?
Well, some players love and respect him. Many of the others transfer.
I would not reduce it to "some". A handful of transfers out of 85 scholarship players does not mean only some love him.
about RR's sincerity to his players or their appreciation for him. Look, every team loves its coach, and vice versa. But look at the rest of the job. This is a CEO position for all intents and purposes. How did he handle the media, how did he handle the alumni, how did he handle the football bust, did he take responsibility for the team's failures?
People like to rag on Lloyd 3 years ago. Fact is, that Lloyd Carr was a great coach. He is ready to retire, and didn't have the energy to go balls out for the last couple ,years. Yet, in 06 we almost played for his second shot at a national championship.
I'm not saying that the new coach has to be a Carr Clone. But, Rodriguez was a "splash" hire who turned out incapable of managing a bigtime program. It's that simple, really.
It doesn't matter that, as a person, I think he's genuine, or that I like him. What matters is that he hasn't done his job. Before this year, and before the Ohio State game, I was ready to give him another year, with a new coordinator, and see what he could do. Bring in Shannon, or Casteel, and let him have a last hurrah. It's now beyond that. The offense scored 14 points yesterday, and was throttled by OSU and Wisc.
I'm sick of setting bad records with this coach, and I'm sure that Brandon and Mary Sue are, too.
It's kind of hard to handle the media and alumni when they're against you from the beginning. Carr was not a good coach. Good coaches don't lose at home to App St as the #5 team at home. Good coaches adjust after getting their asses handed to them by Syracuse and Oregon (not in 2007). Good coaches don't lose as many bowl games as Carr did. Good coaches don't lose to OSU as often as he did. Good coaches make changes. Stop living off 1997. If he really didn't have the energy to go balls out for the last two years then he should have retired right then and there. He did a great disservice to the program if he wasn't giving it his all.
Frustrating? I don’t know if that’s the correct word. We just come to work. I mean, one thing I’m proud of the players and the staff is we have not cheated the University of Michigan a day of work, and I wouldn’t allow it and I wouldn’t let our staff allow it, wouldn’t let our players allow it and never have in my entire coaching career. And we’re paid to do a job, and we did it as hard and as well as we could with some obstacles, but everybody is going to have obstacles.
This whole Michigan Man thing is getting to be a destructive crock of shit. The message is being sent out loud and clear that you can't come here and be successful if you are not already somehow "from here". This is not what the University of Michigan is about and it should be stopped before it goes any further. It already has damaged the program under the current coach and it shouldn't be allowed to continue.
I'd love to see Loeffler make his way back. That would be awesome on its own, regardless of how I feel about CC.
If we dump the spread and go back, I hope he's brought back quickly.
I was thinking about this the other day, will Loeffler be retained at Florida? Probably not if Weis is hired, I would guess, so he should be available.
Edit: @Steve in PA: Loeffler has been coaching in a spread offense for the past two years at Florida.
Florida has a different flavor of spread than ours. Guess I should have been more clear on that.
He wouldn't be option A or B, but annybody who had a hand in that '97 defense is alright with me.
Can you tell me why?
Have you not watched the defense and special teams?
That said, I'd rather have RichRod than Brady Hoke.
We're close to something really good I think. People still forget, Denard was a first year starter. Yes our offense stalled at times but it also looked damn good at times. I'm not ready to blow this thing up yet. The defense has the pieces to be good and the players love him. These are guys that spend all day, everyday with him. I'm willing to take that into consideration before I listen to some old fart on a message board bitch and moan about how he's not a Michigan man (not saying you are, just in general).
But the defense scares me. I'm a 33 year old Michigan fan, I was born and raised on defense first, and I must admit, I arrogantly thought that when RichRod came, the defense would stay the same, but the offense would change... It all changed, and while for the good on offense, the defense just shows me no signs of being a Michigan defense. I like Martin, Demens, and Roh, but I don't see much else that gets me excited. The secondary, while young, never showed any improvement, not even a glimpse. As long as Ray Vinopal and Jordan Kovacs start, this won't be a Michigan defense. It won't be good enough for the Big Ten. Today, they looked lost out there, and that scares me, cause this should have been the game, four weeks to prepare, your defensive and head coaches jobs are on the line, and you look --- lost, confused, and out of postion... I can't take that, I'm sorry. Like I said, like I am sure so many other people, I thought RichRod taking over, the offense would change, and I think we all know the conditioning would change, but never in my wildest dreams would I ever think that a Michigan defense could be ranked dead last in the Big Ten, not to mention amongst the worse in the nation. I see defensive bodies, but not a couple of five star blue chippers, which is what this defense needs, along with so much more ... and wow, I didn't even bring up the special teams, but, well... I don't know. I hate being negative, but I hate losing more. All the offensive signs, by the way, that this offense has shown glimpses of, we're against weak competition... Sad to say, against top tier teams, this offense didn't show much of anything. We have to admit this isn't working.
It sucks to say it, but... We need to move on.
Agree the defense and special teams are a total nightmare and one that we've all unfortunately had to live through. That said after watching the Rose Bowl tonight, I don't think we need 5 star recruits to have a Michigan defense again. Sure it would help, but TCU shut down Wisconsin with a bevy of 2 and 3* guys. This gives me hope that with a good d-coordinator that a true-freshman like Ray Vinopal could develop into a Tank Carder. I realize it will take a miracle, but it's not completely beyond the realm of possibility and that gives me at least an optimistic glint of hope.
We're close to something really good I think.
Did you watch today's game? Keep in mind that we had a month to prepare for it.
Offense cannot play against a good defense.
Special teams are a debacle, not just kicking.
Defense if the worst in program history
Keep in mind dropped passes, a true sophmore QB and the lack of a viable run game outside of Denard.
........as our HC. If he is named the coach, then fine, I will support him. But I believe even without JH that there are many better coaches out there that UM could have.
I understand everybody has different opinions on Hoke, but we need to trust DB. I'll support whatever he decides because he wants to win worse than we do. As painful as today was, it was worse for him, I'm sure. I wouldnt want to be the AD right now.
You could call Gruden, but he wouldn't take the job. Hoke would. Fans underestimate just how difficult it is to get a coach to leave what he's doing and move hundreds of miles away to Ann Arbor. A guy like Harbaugh coming is like winning the lottery - most schools couldn't dream of landing a coach of his caliber.
Hoke is well thought-of in Michigan circles. He produced some excellent D-linemen. If he hadn't left for Ball State, he'd have probably become our DC after Herrmann left. As it was, he turned around BSU - it took a little longer than we may have liked, but he did it. And he seems to be turning SDSU into a quality program as well. Yeah, he wouldn't be a candidate if he hadn't coached here, but that's the point - he has worked here, so he's familiar with the school, the program, and its challenges and strengths. He knows what fans/alumni expect. He wouldn't be caught off-guard by things like the #1 jersey. Does this mean we should hire him now? Well . . . I would probably still say no, because I'd like to see where he can take SDSU, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of waiting. There are rumblings that the braintrust really likes him.
Yes, Yes, and Yes, except JH may still say No. That's the whole point of this thread.
This whole #1 jersey thing, for starters, is a self-serving bunch of crap put out by this drunk SUV-driving, pass-dropping, taunting, can't-play-in-cleveland, "I'm on the committee to fire RR" moron on the Jets. Forget it. No one made that big a deal out of it before him. It is the freaking Anthony Carter jersey.
For those of you who don't recall Braylon Edwards asked for the AC #1 jersey early in his career at Michigan only to be told NO by LC. He did eventually get it later on but only after shamelessly pleading.
Can we please stop with this nonsense?
I half-agree with your point re persuading top coaches to move to AA. With the NFL guys, yes, that would take some real snake-oil. They're used to a certain big-city lifestyle.
But with college coaches, I do think M remains a very desirable job -- one of the top 10 or so in the NCAA. The team is struggling, yes. It will require some heavy lifting. And, not least, the money ain't quite the same (though that may change somewhat). But still. Michigan is a huge "brand." It gets the most national exposure (after ND); it has the biggest stadium, terrific facilities, and a still-great tradition and reputation. And it's not as if the program has been in some endless death-spiral. It's only been a few years.
Any good coach thinks of himself as more than up to any job, if given the right resources and opportunities. Michigan affords huge advantages over most other programs. The Michigan name will automatically get him in the door, at least, with many or most top recruits. M is a pretty easy sell when the program is stable and on a winning track.
Finally, don't discount the ego factor. Places like TCU, Boise State, and Utah remain backwaters. Most fans still don't know jack about those teams. Coaches want recognition and exposure and branding. They want to show what they can do on the biggest stage. Granted, some may stay loyal to their current perches; some, like Schiano, may hold out for some other pie-in-the-sky job. But most are careerists. They want the big-ticket programs. I think many would love nothing more than to be the guy who brings M back to greatness.
It's because we don't have time for a coaching search and because everyone knows Hoke would jump at the opportunity
People, please. Here's a thought exercise I suggested to another person yesterday:
If we were just now saying goodbye to Lloyd after three years of eight wins, would Brady Hoke even be in the conversation?
He's 52 (not young) and has a handful of good seasons to his credit in the minor leagues of college football. He's not Urban Meyer in 2001 (for example). Far from it.
He did not "turn around" Ball State. He had a single good season there.
- - -
Here's what happening: People are starting to panic. They're desperate (understandably) to get rid of Rodriguez and they'll take *anything* (e.g., a coach who is, based on the evidence, second-tier at best) in his place.
Michigan, its alumns, and its fans are capable of better thinking. Let's see it.
Hoke is not the answer. I would think (hope) he would be near the bottom of the list.
I simply cannot believe a rational person would rather have Brady Hoke as head coach over Rich Rodriguez. Unless that someone is a columnist for a Detroit paper trying to stir up shit.
Give me RR and a new DC who can bring in some of his own position coaches over Hoke any day of the week.
was the lack of improvement over the season. Yes, there were a lot of freshman on defense, but by the end of the year, they were essentially guys who had started 10 games. There was no perceptible improvement. Perhaps you can blame GERG, but who hired him -- and retained him.
Bookmark this thread folks. We play SDSU next year as the fourth game of the season. If Hoke is still the coach, I expect many of the incredibly close-minded arguments here to be reconsidered.
As a Blue Hair ('84 was the year of my graduation, not birth) I feel like the most compelling reason for Hoke is the mobilization of the alumni base.
A lot of boosters I know have taken to sitting on their hands. I know everyone likes to toss out the claim we're sabotaging RR, but I haven't really seen evidence of that. What I have seen a lot of though is simply sending off a check and nothing more.
Recruits, or more often their advisers/parents, will reach out to alumni groups and ask us about Michigan. The campus, the academics, social life, etc. You'll get worried mothers asking us things like "Will my 300 pound, 5 Star offensive line recruit be safe in Ann Arbor?" (Answer: Yes, unless the owners of the all you can eat places band together to take him out.). These people can pick up that a lot of the alums aren't enthralled by RR. I've never heard anyone say anything bad about him to the adviser or parent of a recruit, but I've heard a lot of people give bland, stock answers that don't get anyone excited.
Hiring in a Carr assistant and marketing him as a one of Lloyd's boys returning home would mobilize a lot of people. His coaching record doesn't impress anyone, but the the alums moving in lockstep behind him might mean something.
Nothing against RR, but after tOSU, the Bowl, the sanctions, the lawsuits over the condo deal (a big issue for many blue hairs) I just don't think you can get the alumni base all in for him at this point. It's just the reality of the situation.
Hoke would be a decent hire if we were in Florida's position - to simply pass the torch. Unfortunately we are in a Miami position where we need someone to turn the program around. That requires a guy with an established name in my opinion. Hoke would not be the best fit given the current state of the football program in my opinion. I will be estatic if we get harbaugh and very disappointed if not.
Harbaugh knows the M community is now, for the most part, dying for his to come. He loves Michigan. This we know. He doesn't need the M offer as a bargaining chip, since he'll likely have multiple fat NFL offers. Something tells me that, if he were disinclined toward the M job, he would have somehow let that be known already. I don't see why he'd want to set-up his alma mater (and David Brandon, whom he knows) for huge disappointment. That would serve nobody's interests, including his own.
He's given about all of the indication that he's interested that he can.
"I'll only talk about the job I have now"
"We haven't even discussed it"
"maybe he mis-spoke"
No coach want to create distractions for his team about to play a BCS bowl, and given our recent coaching hire fiasco DB probably contacted him directly and wants to keep it all airtight until it's released. Really, there isn't much else he could say. All signs certainly seem to point in his direction, though I was hoping for a different resolution myself.
+1 for your signature, that's tremendous.
Just my opinion but if we weren't willing to give JH a chance back when we were hiring a new coach 3 years ago because there weren't established enough coming out of SanDiego State then why would we choose Hoke coming out of the same situation over JH (saying he wants to be in AA)