Article on Rivals... not paywall...
no, YOU'RE off topic
Article on Rivals... not paywall...
How does Spath think we got Rich Rod in the first place? Hint, it wasn't by waiting until after he coached his bowl game.
The more universal the stupidity of this becomes, the more it seems he's cutting off his nose to spite his face. "Rich deserves to enjoy coaching in the bowl game he's earned"? How much does Rich look like he's enjoying anything right now?
Coaches coach, and if they do a good job, a better offer comes around. To use Bo...Bo left Miami for Michigan before there were 8 billion bowls to go to. Playing by the rules gets you Tommy Amaker when others are snatching up the Pitinos of the world. Or whatever defensive coordinator while the Shannon types are being hired up.
Brandon can't get away from an interview, it seems. I wonder how available he's going to be to answer the line of questions of either "You kept Rich, but left him dangling for a month, hurting recruiting, and probably hurting his loyalty to you....for what, exactly? (Because you needed a bowl game to decide, decisive dude?)" OR "OK, WHY did you fire Rich...? What did you see that you didn't like, since it's not all wins and loses...and what does X coach bring in that he didn't?"
But I wonder if anyone asks him the tough questions that he doesn't listen to BEFORE he comes to a decision, after he's done it.
in my humble and absolutely speculative opinion backed by zero facts I believe he is waiting for one of two reasons:
1. He wants to see what RR can do with a reasonably healthy team and 30 days to prepare for a game against what is considered a better foe. If RR brings the team out smoking a-la WVU in the Sugar Bowl a few years ago he stays. But depending on the performance of the defense he may be mandated to take out all the defensive assistants and start over with the cavaet that RR keeps his hands off that side of the ball. If they lay a collective Wisconsin/OSU sized egg RR is gone. This is my theory btw.......
2. He has Harbauagh already lined up and in his back pocket but is waiting for the bowl game to announce. Regardless of outcome he can claim he game RR his word to wait until season was over to evaluate and he then he did. And RR will come out short regardless of the outcome of the game itself and Jim comes in.
I've hired and fired people over the past 30 years of my corporate life and the more I look at the situation the more I am convinced it's one of the two scenerios above.
I think your #2 is the correct answer. IMO, he has someone lined up ready to go. Don't know who it is, but that's what I think is happening.
no one knows the importance of recruiting better than brandon and to bring RR back after the damage done to his recruiting prowess in the last few weeks would be a poor choice
he's gotta have harbaugh locked up and is merely trying to avoid a debacle like last time and a last minute mega offer from stanford, the 49ers, etc.
the 1.5 million dollars saved by waiting until 1-1-11
No small chunk of change for a public university in one of the most economically troubled states in the country
$1.5 million saved is nice for any college, but can we stop using this as a reason or partial reason for the delay in DB decision. If the University is worried about this money then the AD has bigger problems to worry about.
The AD stated it has a projected suplus of $16million for this year. IMHO, DB is not considering this money. The money is a small sprinkle on top and bears no part in the decision.
BTW, I didn't neg your comment. I am curious why so many people keep bringing up the money issue.
Because it supports their tenuous hypothesis.
Scenario #2 is far more logical and if correct then it has to be Harbaugh; any other choice would be ridiculous. The fact that JH has not been a prominent factor in the numerous major coaching searches is strong evidence that he knows where he is going in January. It's either the NFL or A-Squared and all of DB's actions point to the latter. Hope I'm wrong but will be all in for Harbaugh if it comes to pass.
If (2) is correct, I believe "corporate double-speak," and not "integrity," more aptly describes the conduct. How can a performance review take place in good faith once a replacement is already lined up? Doesn't that mean that he merely gave lip service to his promise to wait until after the season to "evaluate" if he already had a replacement picked?
If #2 is what transpires then I would agree with you but I think he's going #1. I truly believe he has not made a decision yet and is waiting to see what RR does with a month of prep time and reasonably healthy team.
I sort of see a combination of the two situations. Michigan might win the bowl game handily (although we haven't seen that against any BCS teams except UConn this year) and then DB will be in the awkward position of firing RR two days later because Harbaugh is already lined up. Can you imagine getting fired after a three TD victory?
Be prepared for the drama.
He may well have waited until the end of the regular season, but for obvious reasons can't make the move before the bowls wrap up.
If DB has someone lined up, there is a good chance RR also has plans in motion already.
I want him back, with a revamped D and a return to domination...
And he really hasn't decided after a full regular season (+ 2 more), and needs that one game to decide after all his behind the scenes observation, I question if he is the guy who should be making the decision if it's all based on one game. If he's not sure, decides to fire, and THEN looks for a new coach, isn't that a worse clusterfuck than 2007 then? What if Harbaugh or whoever is going to the 49ers at that point? Or if Rich is staying, he pissed away recruiting and trust because he's indecisive.
If #2, that may be reasonable, but don't go claiming it was out of integrity, or there being a right way to do things. It's just stalling, pure and simple, and not based on any higher ethic.
Only if he follows scenerio #1, fires RR and doesnt have a replacement lined up. Which I do not believe he'd do. It is not beyond the relm of possibility that he has reached out to JH and confirmed his interest but has told he is not ready to offer him the job yet.
At the beginning of the season virtually all of us said 7 wins would get RR year 4. They only reason we (and DB too I believe) is waiting is due to he nature of the 5 losses. Which is why I don't think it's a slam dunk decision either way.
And unlike others here I do think a person sticking to their word is a mark of integrity. We may not like it.....heck we may not even agree with it (I posted myself earlier this year a plea to DB to publicly support RR after the Purdue game).....but he said what he would do and he's following through on that committment.
While I agree that this is generally correct, sometimes when what you are sticking to turns out to be more harmful in the end, flexibility is the higher road. I can swear left and right that I am not wearing pants to work tomorrow - but going in to the office sans trousers is not the mark of integrety. I'm curious what Rich would say candidly if you asked him about this wait, but I don't think it would be "I sure am glad that Dave is stalling on this."
What are you, Peter Griffin? Classic!
But is already lining up replacements, that's hardly acting on good faith. And I don't know how many coaches would be open to "yeah, if my coach doesn't work out, you want to come coach us?" Either you want the guy or you don't.
I don't know that virtually all of anybody said that. A lot around here may have thought it was probably. But that was 7-5, not 7 wins. If you had said 7-6, I bet a lot of people would have cringed at the idea that would automatically mean a return. Going back into the summer, most said that it was hard to put a W-L total on it, because it depended on how it went. 7-5, or even 6-6, with wins over MSU and OSU? Bring him on back! 7-5, getting throttled by those teams...? Well....
And sticking to your word is usually integrity. As long as it's not a cover for you to be doing other stuff. Is it integrity of what was said, or just a timetable to arrange a new coach?
And in any regard, he didn't swear on his life that he would do things this way, no matter what happened. Picking a time to evaluate a coach isn't moral, it's arbitrary. And inflexibility to not change things due to changing circumstances isn't moral either...it's just stupid and/or stubborn. Backing up a throw away statement isn't everything. If Rich had punched a player at the end of the OSU game, would it be integrity to say "well, I said we'd judge at the end of the season, so I'm going to wait...because I gave my word". No, of course not, because circumstances have changed, and what is right would have changed.
So he's either leaving a coach and recruits out to dry, which isn't integrity in my book....or he's making plans to get rid of him, which might be the right plan, and the right thing to do, but it's not something done under the guise of integrity. It may just be prudent.
You and i will have to agree to disagree on this issue. I have no issue whatsoever with DB taking one more game to make a very important decision to not only the program but to RR as well but you seem to think that he should've already made up his mind.
As far as win totals go refer back to my original post. I said the Bowl game was in essence a one game audition for RR's job. Win it and he's 8-5, not 7-5. Lose it and he's probably gone so 7-6 would not be good enough to stay. IMO anyways.
I am not thrilled about losing potential recruits over the delay but view it as an acceptable risk. I also believe which ever way this falls some recruits will switch their verbals for the good and some for the bad so I don't place the recruit's need to know that highly. No recruit has been left out to dry because no recruit has to sign and actually commit yet with NSD still over a month away from the Bowl game. If this discussion was taking place nearer to NSD I would agree with you but it's not.
I also don't have an issue with reaching out to a prospective replacement to gauge interest - even if he hasn't reached a final decision yet. I can tell you that if that is what DB is doing it he is not alone in that tactic. If Harbaugh said no, for example, RR might have a longer leash. If Harbaugh said yes (and I'm assuming CC for the sake of arguement only) then DB has options. But he may not pursue the option depending on the results of the game.
And let's be serious on the integrity issue. OBVIOUSLY if RR committed a major breach like punching someone (or forgetting his pants as another poster suggested) he would be terminated immediately. In the business world that is referred to as "for cause" dismissl and nobody would argue the need for him to be gone. See Mike Leach last year for a reminder of how that works when you want a coach gone and don't want to pay a buy-out.
The good news is that we are now less than three weeks from finding out which of us is correct on his issue. And because DB isn't talking that will be the soonest either of us find out.
Not sure where to put this reply, but you have had most of the insightful responses on this thread so I will do it here. I agree with you and think it's #1. DB probably is close to making up his mind but he had some data points that he wants answered. The last 2 losses and the way we lost probably delayed this decision more than he would have liked.
I would think that if Harbaugh had this job in his pocket, would he not want to get here ASAP and start getting recruits and his team ready for next year. Why would he wait till after the Orange Bowl. Although, it would be great for the Stanford kids, he will start behind for next year.
I think DB and RR will have a long discussion about the team, especially the D. This conversation will probably determine if RR will be the coach. IMHO.
You should always express your opinion. I do and I know I can be wrong often.
Initially, I thought the same. DB has seen 12 games already, one extra shouldn't matter. But, again I go back to Harbaugh. Does DB let Jim dictate terms to him before he officially takes the job. Maybe Harbaugh really wants to coach the kids in the bowl game, but is that more important than his future job. This team still needs alot of work for next year. I would think JH would want to get a early start and work on his future team rather than win a bowl game with his former team.
I have explained where I stand on this issue too many times to do it again but I will put this forward for debate:
Apparently, DB has had this timeline since the start of the season. He continues to tell eveyone with a mic that this has been his timeline since the start of the season and he isn't changing it now.
If this is true then neither your #1 or #2 are correct. The timeline is what it is because DB said it would be that way at the start of the season and has to stick to his word....
Seriously, how absurd is that? If he is being honest, he has not lined up a new coach, has not decided to keep the current one and will not do so until after January 1st. This is the only way DB is showing integrity and not flat out throwing up a smoke screen.
I have all sorts of problems with how this has all transpired, not the least of which is why the heck he made his timeline public. He could have avoided all of this by simply telling RR what the timeline was.
Honestly, what would be wrong with DB telling the media at the start of the season:
RR is the coach of the UofM football team and as such has the full support of the Athletic Department. The Uof M has had a football program for more than 100 years and during that time we have evaluated many coaches. We will evaluate RR in the same manner as we did his predecessors, and if RR status as HC changes the media will be made aware. Any further questions on this topic at this or any future press conference/ interview will result in the immediate termination of said press conference/interview.
I think one of the biggest mistakes was making that timeline public. Time will tell if sticking to that timeline was a mistake as well. Again, if JH come in right after his bowl game the timeline makes sense, but also suggests that sticking to it had nothing to do with integrity. If RR is retained the timeline makes absolutely no sense, but DB's integrity would still be intact.
This is a mess, no two ways about it.
I have read your opinion before and I agree, setting a timeline was a bad idea. I was taught that you never give specifics when answering a general question. You don't want to corner yourself in. Fine, he gave the timeline, he can still change it. IMHO, if he thought his timeline was hurting the program, I would think he would change it. I know I would, and just claimed I have seen enough to make up my mind.
Which is why I said, I think he is close to a decision and the last 2 games raised doubts. To be honest, if he has doubts, I wouldn't be thrilled but I can understand it. This is a huge decision with the direction of the program at stake.
If the only reason for the wait is for JH, I will be really upset. I think JH is a good coach but you don't allow employees to dictate terms before they even start working for you. I will also be upset that JH didn't come here right away to start building his program. Yeah, I know it's a month, but we can use all the time to build for the future.
Caveat : When i say dictate terms, I mean more of the when he will start work than money
If my post seemed like it was directed as a disagreement with yours, it was actually in response to the guy who said there could be two reasons for the delay.
I was in agreement with you and my main point was that if DB is to be believed (and I am not saying he shouldn't be believed) he has had thie timeline since the beginning of the year, so he never had any intention of searching for coaches or evaluating RR until after the bowl game, which seems pretty absurd to me.
If DB is doing anything right now (which I think he should be) in the realm of evaluating or searching for a new coach, he already is going against what he said he would be doing when he set forth his timeline, so all this integrity talk is a little silly IMHE.
If he isn't doing anything right now in the realm of searching for a HC or evaluating our current one and hasn't adjusted this timeline somewhat, he has integrity, but is not the excellent AD everyone wants to make him out to be because circustances are definitely changing on a daily basis.
A good leader/CEO/AD can recognize when he has made a mistake, and knows it doesn't make him a bad leader to adjust his plan of action. It makes him a smart leader and one who can adapt to changing circumstances.
No worries and no need to say sorry. I agree with you, especially the last paragraph. With the new formats, it's hard to tell sometimes who is responding to whom.
Maybe I want to believe that DB has a master plan and all of his experience will come to a conclusion that none of us really gave much credence to.
I am not hoping for a coaching change, but if he is set to make one, I want the best guy and don't want it to be JH or bust. At this point, I just want to program to continue to move forward whether its JH, RR or someone else. It seems like we are in limbo which doesn't help the program.
if it was #2 wouldnt there be leaks coming out every where? Especially from harbaughs camp? or even the Athletic Department?
DB has more problems then just this coaching evaluation issue....
Harbaugh and Brandon are said to be good friends. If true, they presumably had each other's phone number long before all this happened - and thus wouldn't need to deal through intermediaries.
This is the first time I've heard that JH and DB are good friends. I don't find it hard to believe. But I've just never heard it said before. If true, it makes it unlikely RR has a chance.
I think that Brandon has seen what Michigan can do with a healthy team.. they've rocketed out to 5 and 6 straight wins when healthy. The problem is, the season doesn't take place with 5 week byes. The team is forced to play as they are, and the bowl game (just like early season games) is just not probative of how Michigan will play in October and November.
No, the problem is we don't play in the MAC the whole season. When shit got real we all saw what happened. That needs to change one way or another next year.
EDIT: Dismisses the effect of injuries compeletly, it played a role, but it was certainly not the cause of what transpired.
The worst injury we suffered was probably Woolfolk's, and that happened before the season started. To attribute the 2-5 finish to the season to injuries is a real stretch. We suffered probably an average number of games lost to injury. Purdue and PSU were in considerably worse shape injury-wise than we were.
if it was #2 wouldnt there be leaks coming out every where? Especially from harbaughs camp? or even the Athletic Department?
Regarding #2, what happens if we house Mississippi State? Like, 3 touchdown win, and then Brandon fires him? That would look terrible.
And Joe Dumars looked awful in 2003 when he fired Rick Carlisle after reaching the conference finals. If you don't think your coach is the right guy, long-term, a game or two shouldn't sway you.
Edit: I read this wrong.. sorry
He is giving Harbaugh time to decide.
Or 4, he is just keeping RR's feet to the fire to see what he produces. He's testing his metal.
if RR is kept on board, DB is communicating that coach may have one last chance in DB's eyes, to get the ship righted and moving in the right direction quickly. How better to get this message across to the "guy" then making him sweat it out a little. This make sure RR evaluates the significant "big picture" changes, ASAP, if he wants this to be a long term gig. No guessing, no 2 or 3 year plan now, to fix the problems at hand. Make the changes now that make significant improvements next year, or else..... That is a big boy, big business, power move if I ever saw one....
It's like DB saying: "I am the Boss Bitches, the Boss....."
I've stayed out of these CC threads as much as possible, but I think your two scenarios are the correct ones and of those two I definitely lean toward the latter. Too much emphasis is being placed on "earning" a bowl game.
From the little bit I've heard DB speak, he really thinks RR has earned the privilege of coaching his kids in a bowl game before being shown the door. At the same time JH wants to coach his kids in a bowl game before departing. In both cases it fits into the team as family concept instead of the Saban-esque money over morals philosophy.
If JH is the guy and we go back to a traditional offense under his leadership I would like to see Scot Loeffler come back. With the coaching change in Florida I think that is possible.
The only scenario which will salvage this pending disaster is if in fact he has Harbaugh committed. RR recruits then will NOT be as important to the program since assuredly Harbaugh has a few recruits in line who may switch to Michigan.
Any other scenario will be come off as an ego trip for Brandon. Making the entire coaching staff twist in the wind and God like Brandon offers them a reprieve for one year will not play well with anyone particularly RR and staff.
IN my view, Brandon is not that callous or self centered. Harbaugh is on board. Notice there has been no announcements from Stanford that he signed the extension offered to him.
Harbaugh will not coach in the NFL for one BIG reason. He NEEDS to be the boss when it comes to his football team. In the NFL that isn't going to happen.
Dave Brandon = Integrity
We've known it for a while. The rest of the football world is just finding out.
that this is the reason that Brandon is waiting, and Spath doesn't even try to offer any.
Integrity-- I like it.
Integrity? I believe integrity for me would be for Brandon to support his coach and tell the world, that at Michigan a coach gets to see at least one of his recruiting classes graduate. A Michigan coach gets evaluated on what his players do as seniors, like that State team, that Buckeye team or or or ....any good team.
You're pretty clearly implying that to fire RR would display a lack of integrity. I don't think that's fair. Brandon did not hire RR. He may never have wanted him here in the first place. This is an important factor to note. Brandon never made any kind of public commitment to RR, other than to say that he'd be coaching here "this season." He gave him a season to show what he could do, much like Bill Martin gave Brian Ellerbe (who was hired by Martin's predecessor) a year. Martin concluded after that season that Ellerbe did not fit his vision for the program; whether RR fits Brandon's remains to be seen.
...DB was involved in the process. If he didn't want RR, he was obviously outnumbered - but I don't think that's the case.
He was on the search committee, which recommended Les Miles. As far as we know, he had nothing to do with hiring RR - that was all Bill Martin.
You're pretty clearly implying that to fire RR would display a lack of integrity.
Um...no and not even close. What i said was that firing him NOW would be a lack of integrity if he gave the man his word he'd wait until the season ends to evaluate his body of work. I can understand (if not agree with) his decision to smoke RR if we stink it up in the Gator Bowl. I know actually following through with one's word is for the most part a novel part of humanity's acient past but there's a segment of us who actually place a high value on honoring a committment.
Even if it makes things difficult. Actually especially if it makes things difficult.
I was replying to Bluerock's post, directly above mine.