he was a "player"! RR and GERG must agree. Johnson looks like a GREAT pickup! To his coach, if your out there thank you!
Carvin Johnson Starting in the Scondary. Devin Gardner likely won't redshirt.
The hybrid position is the Spur, correct?
I'd also like to know who got displaced.
EDIT: Never mind -- the Rivals article says Gordon.
He's taking the place of Thomas Gordon/Floyd Simmons/Mike Williams/Josh Furman at Spur.
That's not so good for Furman, who I thought was going to be a beast. Although if he can beat out that many people for the spot - yay. He's gotta be at least servicable, righit? Right?
Furman is raw. I think he played RB and DE in high school. Someone feel free to correct me.
So Furman is all of the sudden not a "beast" because he didn't pick up a starting spot after only 3 weeks of practice. You have some pretty high expectations...
Ever think Johnson was just more physically developed coming in? I make it a habit not to write off 17-18 year old athletes before they even start their first semester of school.
but I make it a habit to snort coke off the shoulder blades of gorgeous escorts. I guess not all habits are created equal.
Josh Furman spent most of his time on defense rushing the passer. Going from being a pass rusher to covering Martavious Odoms-like slot receivers isn't going to happen overnight.
Thomas Gordon was the front-runner for this position for all of spring and most of fall camp.
EDIT: Beaten by like 4 people. Sheesh. It's definitely a Monday.
The Spur is an overhang type OLB, while the Bandit is the true hybrid player. I don't think we'll see the Spur drop back and play a deep safety, but I do think we'll see it from the Bandit.
That said, it is schematically possible to drop either Spur or Bandit back.
do you have a link to the depthchart?
This is the best I have found for a link so far.
Site isn't working for me. Maybe it's overloaded?
Where can I actually find the updated Depth Chart?
Michigan Football tweets:
RT @LarryLage: Rodriguez says he doesn't know if all 3 QBs will play in opener, but Gardner will not redshirt: "Devin is going to play"
If that's accurate, then I have to eat all my words about how RR will not play DG unless disaster happens. I don't understand it myself, because RR also just said he won't burn a redshirt just to give snaps at garbage time.
It also indicates that RR's assessment of the potential of TF and DR is not tremendously optimistic.
What it really means is, "Why deal solely in gold when you've also got platinum?"
I think that should read "TF or DR". He was going to redshirt him as long has he had two viable options at QB. If one of those goes away, he no longer has a viable back up. My guess is that this is a combination of Tate not improving as much as he should and Devin improving way more than anyone expected.
Tate was one of the top players at the "Beanie bowl". I'm more concerned about Denard's performance against a real D that isn't playing vanilla than I am about Tate. When Denard shows me he can be a viable passer in real game situations I will feel much more comfortable with him. I believe his HS completion % was around 47% and that won't make it in D1 football.
If DG is as good as the hype and we believe him to be he won't stay for five years so why RS him.
I didn't assume anything. The last part was a guess based on what we have seen/heard lately. But, my point was that DG not getting redshirted does not mean that both of our QBs are playing horribly. It likely only means one is and that DG is playing better than that one.
If DG is as good as the hype and we believe him to be he won't stay for five years so why RS him.
This is why I don't think it is a good idea to redshirt DG. I think he will be a great QB and will eventually pass DR and TF by their senior years anyways which I think means that he wouldn't stay for a 5th year.
Don't you think all the chatter about him being on the hotseat changes his strategy just a little? It's being demanded that he win now, so he can't really be worrying about the 2014 team anymore. That's what I get from it. Of course, if his job security is solidified before they burn the redshirt, maybe he'll reconsider.
If Devin Gardner provides *any* opportunity for the team to win then he need not redshirt. The End.
How long do the coaches have to decide on whether or not to redshirt a kid? Is it possible that Gardner doesn't play, unless absolutely necessary, and is redshirted later in the year?
understanding a player cannot play at all in order to be redshirted...
A redshirt isn't burnt until you play a kid, there's no like paperwork that has to be filed prior to games.
You can play up to like 15% of the games and still be redshirted. I'm not exactly sure, but it's like a game and a half into the season.
Stop spreading wrong information. One snap = redshirt burned. Unless it's a medical redshirt.
I believe you are thinking of the medical redshirt rules, certain % of plays before a certain point in the season and one can still qualify for a medical redshirt if injured in like game 4 or something.
I don't think the percentage of plays matters. It's how many games you appear in (and when).
If Devin doesn't redshirt, he's probably going to play quite a bit more than we all expected, unless of course Shoelace goes all Heisman on everyone.
some player quotes on Carvin from rivals (non-paywalled):
"He's been getting interceptions, laying the wood ... he just comes to practice and does his job, makes the play and gets back up and does it again," defensive tackle Mike Martin said Monday. "He's smart. He's always around the ball. He's a young guy and a humble kid ... I've been really impressed with him this camp and he has done a great job."
Johnson is probably starting at Spur, which was Steve Brown's position last year.
I know you've said before that Brown had essentially no deep/safety responsibility last year, wouldn't it make more sense to put Kovacs at that position where he can focus on playing in the box (where he excels) or do you think the tradeoff of Johnson covering tight ends, etc. one-on-one while Kovacs takes the occasional deep responsibility a preferable setup?
If thats the case, I guess the coaches trust Kovacs not to make a soul crushing mental error that a true freshman might make.
As far as I know, Kovacs will be playing up near the line of scrimmage and not be tasked with fast players. Cam Gordon is our deep safety.
But at some point presumably the other safety is going to have some deep responsibility unless you play an eight man front every down and distance or swap him out for corner/nickle type players (which we don't have a whole lot of). It just seemed to me that Johnson would be a more natural fit for the guy with some deep responsibility (even if he does spend the majority of first and second down playing near the line of scrimmage) than Kovacs would be.
Typically, yes, the Bandit plays at the line, but there were some plays in the spring game (mostly unbalanced receivers) where the CB plays at the line and the Bandit plays the deep/curl route zones.
We don't run this particular defense, but I've talked to a couple coaches who have said that you should put your best overall athlete at Spur. He has to cover and tackle on a regular basis. So it makes sense that Steve Brown would have played Spur last year, and it makes sense that Josh Furman - an excellent athlete but who is raw - would play there, too. I'm not convinced that Johnson is our best athlete, but he has a good combination of skills and he also seems to have good football instincts.
I'm not a huge fan of Kovacs' ability, but it makes sense for him to play Bandit instead. Hopefully he can keep mental mistakes to a minimum and position himself correctly, because he doesn't have the athleticism to make up for mental mistakes.
Everything points to Johnson being a stud and a great pick-up by the staff. If he starts as a true freshman and it helps us win I am all for it.
The writing was on the wall with Hagerup I believe everybody and their grandmother knew Hagerup would be replacing the space emperor.
In regards to DG I am just holding out hope that, he doesnt play and can save that redshirt. If we need him to win games though that's what's important.
Anyone have a depth chart!? /s
Thanks but I was kidding due to the two other exact posts...haha
sure went down the chart
Thats the speculative depth chart that was discussed days ago, thats not official.
Not sure If i scream...YYYYEEEESSSS, a recruit that will be better then advertised or NNNOOOOOOO, a true freshman who wan't anticipated to play starting.
I agreed with your sentiment until I got to wan't.
should start to go over work before sending...
I remember when reading all the hype and info about Carvin in the past year, I kept thinking he seemed like the type of player that could step in early, he seemed to have the intelligence to pick up a defense and play well early on. I just hope this is because Carvin outplayed Thomas Gordon/et all and not because everyone else struggled so much it's come down to a "well lets see if this works" type thing.
...RR has to pull out all the stops and win this year (8 or 9 wins minimally) or his tenure is over. Therefore, redshirting talent like Gardner isn't in the cards, unless DRob and Tate perform exceptionally well. Just my opinion, but I think it's "all hands on deck" time for RR and the Michigan program.
For some reason, I really like that saying.
What about if it's your deck?
and whose hands?
These are the most $%!& assumptions we can make. Play on the field and direction of recruiting will be heavily considered. If we make a bowl, beat one or two of our rivals and don't get blown out by anyone I would think DB will bring RR back. We would be bringing back all but one starter on O and one or two on D. RR deserves a chance to coach them next year unless this season blows up in his face.
Let the kids play!
Put the best players on the field, freshman or not. Might not be ideal, but whomever can makes plays should be out there.
Hope Carvin does Stevie Brown proud at the Hybrid.
A couple years ago that statement wouldn't have made sense. Tip of the hat to GERG and Brown both. Best of luck to Carvin.
Good Luck Carvin. Tip of the hat to GERG...Wag of the finger to Edsell.
that asked that Carvin Johnson be the next Charles Woodson in terms of Freshman success.
CJ is going to prove these people (and a lot of others)wrong:
Even happier that he might be a true safety prospect. But no big offers scares me a little. Yes we all know Pat White was a nobody and RR turned him into a giant killer of a QB but could we please wait until we are out of the running for some of the higher rated options before we start taking fliers on low rated small offer recruits.
I am not bashing on the kid but to not be rated at this point of the season might say something about his top end ability. Here's hoping that we still land the Knights, Grimes, and Christians of this class because lets face it, Michigan needs help now and can't wait for "projects" to mature.
November 3, 2009
Seems a bit strange to accept a commitment from him at this time. We're not in absolute crunch mode, but we're pretty darn close. I know the offer isn't new, but I feel maybe we should have waited till after the OSU weekend when we might know more from Cullen, Knight, etc.
It's not that these guys will be scared away, but if we can take more talented DB's, I'd prefer it. With Avery, Talbott, and now Johnson we have three "meh" DB prospects. I'm all for filling up the backfield, but do we need to take this many fliers? Or are they fliers at all?
I'm not good at evaluating talent, and if we can dig up some video on this guy, I'd defer to someone like Magnus to provide a little insight.
November 3, 2009
Meaning I'm indifferent.
I remember reading that Johnson was a shy kid and didn't hit the summer camp circuit, which hurt his rankings immeasurably. Michigan (Fred Jackson) found out about him first, and LSU was showing interest late but by then he was solid Blue. Watch the Beanie Bowl Countdown to Kickoff. He blitzes in the end zone, #13. It's one play, but it's clear the kid can MOVE.
seeing if this changes anything.
What is this "November 3, 2009" thing all about?
...he was too subtle. Hint: at that time, Carvin was not highly regarded.
To be honest, my treacherous fingers still want to type "Calvin." Then again, I can barely type my own name.
What a bunch of complete bs this re-hashing of Carvin Johnson's status to Rivals on November 3, 2009 is...
This adds nothing to discussion of his current status as a potential starter on the defense or related to his development as a player.
Apparently, the 3 Star Mafia treatment is Hotel California status around here? How god damn ridiculous. Let's be happy the kid is developing as described earlier in the thread by one Mike Martin.
Dude, the only time in the past several months I have read the words "3 star mafia" is when you bring them up complaining about some potential appearance that never occcurs, or about some mistaken appearance that never happened (here). YOU are essentially the 3 star Mafia on this board. It will only die if you let it.
Interesting. I was just watching the Countdown video from Saturday last night (i.e. the video with the scrimage highlights) and noticed that Carvin Johnson was just flying around the field in several of the clips. I'm really excited to see what he can do!
I just re-watched that video after hearing this news and noticed just how much better Johnson looks now - he suddenly looks so much bigger, stronger, faster than he looked the other day.
Seriously, last night I saw a play on the Countdown to Kickoff vid, saw somebody flying around and thought, 'who the *%#$ is that?' Replayed it, froze the frame, #13 C. Johnson. Glad to know Rich Rod and I see eye to eye.
I'm sure Rich Rod is glad you agree with him as well.
I'm reading what you've said as some type of sarcasm aimed at what I wrote, but if you would read carefully what I wrote you would see that I said that I was watching the video last night (i.e. before this news came out). I was just commenting on it because it was one of the first times I've seen a play he's made featured in any of the videos this month and then the next day this news comes out. I definitely was not saying that I heard this news, then went back and re-watched the video and then posted what I wrote. Since I had not seen any film of him from this spring before yesterday it would be kind of hard for him to look bigger, stronger and faster than he did the other day...
No, your post just sparked the idea for my post. It was more of a topical reply rather than a critical or complimentary reply. Maybe I am sarcastic too often. But no /s.
Ah, ok, I apologize then. I'm far too sarcastic myself, so I usually read other people's comments that way. Sorry about that.
It is interesting how this came out, though. Who ever is editing these Countdown videos seems to be on the same page with the coaches on quietly leaking out information on position races or camp performance. There have been several instances now where the video comes out highlighting plays from certain players and then later that day there is big news about those players in press conferences. The same can be said about players that have been noticeably absent from the Countdown videos.
Yeah, it makes you wonder about the process from the editing room to the website - I would think that while the video team has some general guidelines from the RR as to what is allowed in the final video, RR or a coach has to give the final approval of each video. But if that is the case, it seems the coaching staff are more concerned with giving the fans something to be happy about (thus the overlap with what we see and camp performers) and perhaps even using it as a tool to push the kids (perform well and you will be an internet star for a day), than with giving away any secrets about who might start. Which makes sense in the current atmosphere.
Yeah, there does seem something to it. Not sure which of those reasons it would be for, but I'm not complaining about it!
In annarbor.com's season preview from yesterday, there was a quote from Denard that I thought was telling:
Asked about Gardner’s progress this summer, his competitor Denard Robinson said, “Pssh, he’ll play.” Robinson paused, and his eyes opened as wide as saucers. “He’s a player. He’s a player.”
Good thing he's #1 on the depth chart, beacause we all know how Carvin feels about being #2...
slight PANIC regarding DG. We need some separation between the QBs. We know RR wouldn't throw in DG just for garbage time so it means 1 or both of our soph QBs isn't getting it done, most likely. There is always the chance that DG is just insanely good and ready to take over but I'm not so sure...
1) Devin's definitely going to be in the mix for the starting role next year, so it's in the team's best interest to get him meaningful experience now.
2) Devin's got a very good chance to be taking snaps in the League in four years regardless of eligilibility status, so we might as well play him while we have him.
Why is it always that people think Robinson and Forcier need to be playing bad for Gardner to get talk about playing time? Seems very possible to me that our second year guys are very good and Gardner just picked things up faster and is very good as well. Is that too unlikely?
Do you honestly believe that DG would be here for FIVE years? If the kid is as good as everyone believes it's four years max so why redshirt?
redshirt players unless its necessary to burn them (i.e., the secondary, injuries, etc.). I hear your point about DG likely not being here all 5 years, but that's speculative, especially with a rookie salary cap going in.
Scenario 1 - Burn redshirt. Get him some game experience, though likely nothing of major consequence, then let him compete on a little higher level for playing time in 2011-12. Could be gone after 2012 and a solid Junior year. In any event must be gone after 13.
Scenario 2 - Redshirt. He is available 2011-2013 for sure. Create more separation between our talented QBs. Have a decent chance at a 5th year senior year in 2014, where he should be a monster.
I'll take 2, but that's just me. I also think scenario 1 would create transfer or position switch possibilities for the other 2 QBs.
Unless I'm mistaken scenario 2 is off a bit, if he redshirted this year he could still leave after the 2012 season, if he so chose.
You mean gems like these?
Tim: "My point is that we can't be scraping the bottom of the barrel for S recruits when we're a strong leader for a couple big-time (at least much bigger than Johnson) S/CB rospects in Cullen Christian and Rashad Knight, to go along with a couple more true CB possibilities."
"As you can see, Johnson is a COMPLETE STUD that the recruiting services ABSOLUTELY LOVE and have even HEARD OF. One of the few snippets out there on him comes from his coach..."
waste a year on DG if he wasn't going to play often, he's obviously played well enough to get into the mix as a contributor. And he's clearly been working. With Denard starting and Tate now working in all areas, we've an embarassment of riches at QB.
We're still stacked until '13
Good for Carvin if this is true, he's been a likable recruit all along. Since we had limited info. on this spot anyway, don't know how to feel. Trust the coaches that he's the best
The stadium must be very loud on Sat. to give this D some help
I thought we would hear if he made the grades in summer school today?
He is on the depth chart. I would expect that mean's the coaches think he will play.
he takes his test tuesday
Can you imagine what this place would've been like back when Chad Henne started at QB for the first time? Freeek outttttt...
It's footbaw week. Be happy and just look forward to Saturday!
It wouldn't have been that bad. Henne was a stud out of high school with a pretty veteran team. Plus, there was a question as to whether or not Gutierrez would be healthy, remember?
This site was in its infancy, but the message boards elsewhere blew up when word leaked out a day or so beforehand that Henne would start. It was not known at the time that Gutierrez was injured. That was revealed later. People were in absolute disbelief that Gutz, who had been groomed to be Navarre's replacement for two years, could have lost his job.
If DG isn't starting, why do you want him to back-up and spot play? The kid should either be starting or red shirting, IMO.
Love Carvin. I like that Rich Rod will play the best player regardless of age. That's one thing that Lloyd Carr drove me crazy with. I still think Furman will be a stud. He is a freak athlete.
I look at DG like this, if he plays early, not due to DR and TF issues, the coaching staff probably feels like he could be starting at some point. I would see that as a sign of his ability, which IMO is a good thing. But if it's late in the season then the shit has hit the fan and we should all duck.
There's a reason why DG probably won't redshirt, and no one knows the reasons more than the coaches do. The coaches are around him everyday, and they know alot more than we do. And as fans, I'm certain we'll look back and know why he didn't get a redshirt. But until then..we enjoy the ride.
a lot of the ratings and offers are based on "measurables" and "athleticism," which people and scouts automatically equate to "potential." but the fact is that some guys are just flat out players. every testimony i recall regarding carvin's on-the-field abilities have been positive. hes not gonna be the freak athlete that stevie brown was, but that doesnt mean that he cant excel on the field. keep in mind there are plenty of players with great measureables (see brandon herron) who dont contribute all that much. ill take someone who can read the field, anticipate the play, and put himself in the right position to make the stop, over a player with raw athleticism anyday. but these are abilities that tend to be overlooked, in favor of the measureables, at recruitment time. im not saying this kid is a superstar, im just saying it is very possible for him to defy the ratings.
on RR's part? By not naming a true starter at QB, that keeps UConn guessing and forces them to potentially prepare for 3 people and not hone in one just one. Just a thought.
Can't wait for Saturday!
I'm sure there is some gamesmanship at play, but if it's all out disinformation....you're (RR) doing it wrong. It's probably a bad idea to straight up say that player X will play unless you are 99% sure he is going to play. I'm guessing that would hurt morale among all the QBs, confuse Devin, etc.
UNLESS THEY ARE ALL IN ON IT! IT'S ANOTHER CLEVER PLOY!
OK mystery solved.
he isn't telling the starting QB he has the first snap till Friday evening.
Id like to see carvin and marvin dominating out there together. Saw both of them in that clip from the beanie bowl making some nice plays, and marvin destroying that guy on the PR
One thing we can all be happy about in terms of the QB battle is that RR and Co. are showing that they take a back seat to no one in terms of developing a dual threat QB. Both Gardner's and Robinson's developemnt are evidence of that. Though playmaking in actual games is the true test, It does seem that Pat White was no outlier.
more stud QB's the next two years, I say if DG's ready then play him. We are going to start reloading again in AA, and there will be other great options by 2014 when DG is gone. (He hasn't even taken a single snap yet, so don't start putting him in the draft after his junior year - yet.)
There must be loopholes. I know that B.J. Daniels for USF played in the opening game during garbage time his first year and still redshirted.
He must have applied for a medical redshirt. If you are injured during the first 3-4 weeks of the season and aren't physically able to play the rest of the year, you can apply for a medical redshirt. "Regular" redshirts are automatic for anyone who never plays.
I think both Denard and Tate can be more than competent as Big Ten QBs. If Devin Gardner is pushing them for playing time, that is a great sign. And besides, you can't teach someone to be a 6'4" gazelle.
playing this year. None. We basically have 2 co-starters in Tate and Denard and yet we are going to find snaps for a true freshman who has big problems making reads? I just don't get it.
This may be (definitely is?) oversimplifying, but if at any point during the season Gardner gives the team a better chance to win, I see playing him as a positive. I'd love for him to have an extra year to develop but if burning a year means more wins this year, I'm okay with it. i realize how shortsighted that is, but such is college football.
Carvin was always one of my favorite players from the class...glad to see he is panning out.
Will Campbell...just shake my head. God, I hope he puts it together.
As for DG...I assume RRod will only play him if we need him. If Tate Or Denard light it up, he could still redshirt. That said, let us admit...DG is the future. Maybe the future will arrive sooner than we all realized?
I still don't see him playing this year because Denard and Tate will be over him. He should probably get a redshirt after the year is over because he wouldn't have had any playing time.
How big is this dude?
For some reason, I can't reply to your comment above. But which prospect are you talking about when you say that you're not good at evaluating talent? Something weird is going on with this thread, and I can't figure it out...
I was looking at this earlier; something happened with that post. I can't tell what (no access to server-side scripting, obviously) but it looks like an HTML element was not properly attributed its closing tag, causing things to go haywire.
There's a few tags that have been commented out as well, notably with relation to voting on those items. Either somebody is exploiting the (very generous) permissions granted to the body of commenters' posts, or Drupal flat out screwed up in publishing that comment.
Edit: on closer inspection the aforementioned tags are meant to be commented out. The problem appears to originate in mgolf4's post - it looks like he tried to include something with his post but I can't tell what (unfortunately this is all post-processing HTML). It could be his signature, or something he attempted to copy/paste into the edit-box.
Yeah sorry about the confusion, I tried to copy and paste old comments from CJ's original "Hello:" post. I even previewed the post before I sent it and it seemed fine so I went through with it. Sorry about that.
I originally thought that Gardner HAD to redshirt, but reading many of the comments has caused me to reconsider. I think the fact that Gardner would probably be gone after 4 years anyway (like Vince Young) means we might as well use him now. I even think he will get meaningful snaps, not just garbage time. He is a head taller than the other two QBs, and with Barwis is probably turning into (an even bigger) beast.
Maybe one of the expert diarists could look into rates for going pro after junior year for redshirted players vs. true juniors.
I'm imagining Gardner in a Tebow-like role as a change of pace, with Tate or Denard as Chris Leak. If Gardner isn't going to redshirt, I think it means that only one of Tate/Denard will eventually settle into the starter role, and the other will hardly play.