Carr, Woodson & Brady

Submitted by massblue on

Two interesting and somewhat related pieces on these three Michigan men.  The openning senstence of the first one made me think how great the 1997-1999 teams were (Link):

Arguably the two greatest players at their respective positions in NFL history both played for Lloyd Carr at Michigan.

If you add Steve Hutchinson, then you have 3 future Hall of Fame members on those teams.  By the way, who was the talent evaluator back then?  He was great.

 

The second piece makes the case that Woodson has had the best football career ever (Link) 

 

When you think about the annals of football history, there are a few names that come to mind about some of the greatest of all-time. Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Deion Sanders, Tom Brady, Jim Brown and more all immediately spring to mind when it comes to those who have broken the mold in the NFL, but who has had the greatest career out of them all? For my money a strong case could be made for Charles Woodson, who announced that at the end of this NFL season he will retire after 18 NFL seasons.
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Mr. Yost

December 27th, 2015 at 12:57 PM ^

I think it's in reference to the comment above that asks if he's a first ballot HOFer. I had the same reaction...made me cringe. Are we going to ask if Kobe or LeBron are first ballot HOFers? If you can ask the question "is he the greatest ever?" Then yea...any person in that discussion is going into the Hall on the first ballot. To even ask is almost disrespectful.

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Commie_High96

December 27th, 2015 at 1:56 PM ^

If I was starting a NFL team with a 22 year old Woodson or a 22 year old Brady, knowing what I know now, I'd take Brady every single time. If I was starting a college team comparing their college careers, knowing what I know now, I'd take Woodson. Carr had a great first 5 years, but should have retired the minute teams started adopting the Spread, which he could never figure out

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Gr1mlock

December 28th, 2015 at 5:40 PM ^

Obvious first ballot guy.  Better question: Is Woodson the best/most succesful Heismen winner at the NFL level ever?  Other reasonable contenders (in chronological order): Doak Walker, Paul Hornung, Roger Staubach, OJ Simpson, Tony Dorsett, Earl Campbell, Marcus Allen, Tim Brown, Barry Sanders.  

 

I'm not sure you can automatically say yes, but he has a very compelling argument.  

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youn2948

December 28th, 2015 at 10:41 AM ^

I could only think of him when they were talking about longevity in the position, and he wasn't deathly afraid of contact like Deoin Sanders.

The day Darrell Green finally retired was the day I game up on rooting for any NFL teams and just stuck to watching ex UM players in the NFL(Which sadly the # even declined as of late).

Stuck with home town rams, ex home town Lions, what am I going to do when/if Brady every retires?  Madden teams with made up/user created UM players/drafted out of my aging NCAA 14?

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Prince Lover

December 27th, 2015 at 12:40 PM ^

I was in school when he played. If he retires, that means I'm really old, not just old. But he did have an amazing football life. Not amazing at all is he's for ever a Wolverine!

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Lie-Cheat-Steal

December 27th, 2015 at 2:36 PM ^

Was the best man to man cover corner ever.  Absolutely shut down elite receivers like had never been done before or since.

Woodson is the greatest all around secondary player ever.  Early in his career his man coverage abilities were elite, just not quite Dion elite.  However, was an exceptional tackler, allowing him to help in the run game as well as play hybrid positions, then eventually transition to safety.  

He could rush the passer, play cover corner, stop the run, and play deep safety all at an elite level.  He was exceptional at everything you could ever ask a player in the secondary to do, whereas Dion was the best ever at just one function of the secondary.

I don't really think it's close between Charles and Dion.  To me, the other Woodson, Rod, is actually the closest to Chuck in terms of greatness.

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DanDiego1999

December 27th, 2015 at 1:25 PM ^

Could a case also be made for greatest offensive guard of all time, Steve Hutchinson (who played in that same time period)?  He was definitely the greatest NFL guard of his era...  If so, that makes an incredible period of Michigan football even more special, and I feel privileged to have been a student from 1995-2000

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Clarence Boddicker

December 27th, 2015 at 1:30 PM ^

Woodson has got to be on the GOAT shortlist. To dominate the way he did on both sides of the ball on college, and the length and success of that career in the pros. Greatest football player of all time? Yes.

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Jasper

December 27th, 2015 at 1:36 PM ^

OP asks: "By the way, who was the talent evaluator back then?"

Not that it matters too much, but for two of the three cases it was Gary Moeller (at least at the top).

Lloyd had the recruiting machine humming after that, though. It's hard to remember, but Michigan was once considered a top five producer of NFL talent. Hopefully it will get back there.

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charblue.

December 27th, 2015 at 4:49 PM ^

who actually played together nn the 1997 team is as divergent as it could possibly be. Woodson played as a freshman alongside Ty Law. Hutchinson was a freshman on a dynamic offensive line that featured other Michigan greats. And Tom Brady was just a backup until he emerged in a battle with Drew Henson as Michigan's starting quarterback.

The Brady recruitment to Michigan is an interesting story but never forget that he was never really sought after by any school and Michigan only picked up on him after his dad sent a highlight tape to the school. He had many ups and downs at Michigan, lost some games he should never have lost. But also demonstrated the absolute will to win and competitive spirt that drives him to this day. He had two years of PT at Michigan, enough to standout as a great player. He was a remarkale talent, but an even greater competitor, clearly in the Harbaugh school of will and competition.

I would say that Woodson had the greatest skill among those guys and combined it with complete understanding of his position and role on defense.

Michigan has had many great offensive linemen over time. Bo inherited two All=Americans in Reggie McKenzie and Dan Dierdorf. Both are NFL HOF themselves. So Hutchinson and the linemates who played with him at Michigan carried on tradition of Oline excellence during their time.

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Lie-Cheat-Steal

December 27th, 2015 at 2:36 PM ^

But he is no Woodson.  He is a very versatile defender and elite athlete that can play multiple positions, but his coverage abilities are nowhere near those of Woodson.

He is probably a better RB than Woodson was when he played in HS and probably a better return man on special teams, but as an all around player in the secondary it's not a fair comparison.

Woodson was essentially Jabrill and Jourdan Lewis combined into one player.

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Cali Wolverine

December 27th, 2015 at 2:49 PM ^

Michigan fans. He was a good college QB, I saw one of his best games in person when he beat Alabama in Miami to win the BCS Orange Bowl against Alabama. But Brady became a great QB in the NFL. Woodson on the other hand was an amazing college player and NFL player. While Brady may go down as the GOAT at the QB position in the NFL, Woodson to me is the GOAT Michigan player I have ever seen. Heisman, College Championship, Super Bowl Ring.

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kgh10

December 27th, 2015 at 3:29 PM ^

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. I think the revisionist history usually occurs in an opposite fashion, those who want to say Brady was shit at Michigan, which he wasn't. Was he a Heisman contender? No, but he was a very very good QB and leader of the teams he piloted without question.

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WolverineHistorian

December 27th, 2015 at 3:35 PM ^

Fair comment.

1998 Tom Brady made me want to pull my hair out at times. It was especially a rough start out of the gate.

1999 Tom Brady was worlds better and was the comeback king but not exactly what you would call a superstar like Woodson. And his mobility? John Navarre could easily destroy him in a race.

It was a pleasant surprise to see what Brady became in the NFL. Any Michigan fan who expected him to have even a third of the success he's had would be lying.



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Lie-Cheat-Steal

December 27th, 2015 at 3:35 PM ^

Due to the Henson - Brady debacle/mismanagement Brady never real got a fair shake at UM.  Carr completely mismanaged the QB situation that year and with the talent on that roster, no way we shoud have lost to Illinois, and the MSU game was shit when Henson was in.

As many have suggested, the talent that came through the program from 93 - 2000 was incredible, but this is also why Lloyd gets a lot of criticism as many felt he was doing less with more by playing overly conservative football.  I'll always adore Lloyd for 97 and being a great ambassador for the program as well as an intellectual who ran a clean program...but similar to Mack Brown at Texas, he had enough talent during those years to be in contention for more than one national title.

Hopefully Harbaugh will return us to such an elite talent base, and adding in is passion and gameday strategy, we could be in for an amazing run.

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stephenrjking

December 27th, 2015 at 3:55 PM ^

Speaking of revisionist history.... I thought Carr did a pretty good job. Henson came in as an uber-prospect with serious Baseball potential and lots of talent that was realized on the field. Maybe Michigan beats MSU if Brady is in the entire game, but maybe not. Henson did hit that bomb TD before the offense stalled in the second half, but regardless, remember two things: 1. Carr offenses were famous for mediocrity in tight games until late deficits forced the passing game to open up, something Brady benefitted from in that game; 2. That MSU team was really good and was a tough beat for Michigan in any context that year. As for the Illinois game, that loss was a perfect storm of disaster in the second half that had nothing at at all to do with Drew Henson. Suggesting that the QB rotation had anything to do with it is inaccurate. In truth, the Illinois game was the traditional, annual head-scratching Lloyd Carr loss. Nothing more, nothing less.

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