Let sleeping dogs lie.
spoiler alert: i linked this
Let sleeping dogs lie.
The transition from Carr to RichRod should always be eligible for discussion. It's important to know your history.
There's knowing your history, and then there's beating a dead horse. At this point does it even matter what Lloyd and Rich did and didn't do? Neither of them are affiliated with the team anymore, and with the exception of a few players, nobody had Rich for more than 2 years as a coach. He's gone, Lloyd's gone, let's put the discussion away
in light of the fact that Rich Rodriguez got a raw deal and Lloyd Carr is still viewed as this can't do no wrong all-around great guy by many people. Carr, along with others, undermined Rodriguez from the get-go. Yes Rodriguez played a role in his own undoing by his inability to forge a decent defense but let's be fair to him; he certainly did not get any support from Carr. Personally, this story does not surprise me. Carr always struck me as a stubborn, crabby old geezer who did things only his way and if you disagreed with him, called him out, you were a dead man walkin'.
in light of the fact that Rich Rodriguez got a raw deal
Wait, it's a fact that Rodriguez got a raw deal? You may believe that, but others among us feel that he was not the right guy for the job and that Hoke is a much better fit.
I think it's interesting that you kind of shrug off the fact (and it is a fact) that Rodriguez fielded three of the worst defenses in school history. What kind of "support" could Carr have offered to remedy that?
Wait, it's a fact that Rodriguez got a raw deal? You may believe that, but others among us feel that he was not the right guy for the job and that Hoke is a much better fit.
I think that both are true; RichRod got a raw deal and at the same time was a bad fit (and thus Hoke is a better fit).
Rich may have gotten a raw deal with certain things...cough...Free Press...cough....and not with other things (coach not winning enough games and getting fired isn't a raw deal, it's the business). We don't now for a fact Rich couldn't have been a good fit here. We don't know when and how Lloyd supported him (did he recommend him for the job? didn't he?). Or whoat level constitutes lack thereof. We can guess there wasn't full support...just like we can guess that some of the things Rich is alleged to do didn't really elicit a lot of supporful feelings.
The only thing that the OP put out there that was true was his last sentence...because they're his feelings. And that's what most of this stuff is about, just doing the same blanket thing they're accusing others of. Didn't like Carr...most likely because they didn't win the amount of games he thought they should (re: all of them). Complained regularly to friends, co-workers, on the radio. Got his wish when he left. Found out things could get a lot worse. But no, couldn't have been wrong about Carr all that time....or how much better things would be with some young innovator! So all the problems of the next three years...yeah, must have been someone else's fault! In fact, it was STILL Carr's fault...not any of the coaches who were, you know, coaching the games and stuff. My perceptions and expectations were always right and anything that shows I might have been in error..well, it a conspiracy dagnabbit.
The only thing that the OP put out there that was true was his last sentence...because they're his feelings.
And then you follow with insults and mad ramblings as if it is a "true" representation of the OPs "feelings."
And there are a lot of people motivated by that. Maybe not this poster. But I never said my opinion was fact, the way he takes other people's opinion and declares them so.
I find that funny because when Hoke was announced as coach 90% of mgoblog was up in arms about it being a bad hire, and what a joke it was
Don't let facts get in the way of a good mudslinging thread.
That's because Brian didn't like him, and a lot of people take their lead from him. Most other sites were pro-Hoke from the outset. Personally, he won me over with the initial press conference.
Wait, you had doubts and then Hoke's introductory conference won you over? Please, tell me more... I've never heard that sentiment expressed anywhere before...
It might not be a fact that RichRod got a raw deal but your arrogant comment about how many people felt he was not the right guy for the job right from the start does support that argument some. If he had been given a chance by those that didn't think he was the right guy then things might have been different.
For the record, I wanted him to, and thought that he would succeed. I also agree that it was time for him to go.
You are completely misrepresenting what I said. What I meant was that many of us now believe, with the benefit of hindsight, that he was not the right guy for the job. When he was here, I cheered for him to succeed. It was brutal watching us go 15-22 those years, and when he was fired, I agreed with it. But I didn't want him to fail. I would have loved to have seen him succeed.
Anyhow, I'm still trying to understand how Rodriguez would have become a better defensive coach if he just had more "support" from Carr. Unless Carr hypnotized him into hiring GERG and then making him run the 3-3-5, I don't see how the two are connected.
That's weird, Carr always struck me as a steadfast character who gave a great deal to the university and city of Ann Arbor, and helped mold such ideal citizens as Charles Woodson and Dhani Jones. Seems to me that Bo was a lot more stubborn and crabby than Carr. Would you call him an old geezer?
There are a lot of Carr supporters on this blog but I certainly am not one of them. As far as coaching goes, he was good and steady but not great, Michigan's Mack Brown. He and his staff recruited really well and with the recruits that Michigan was getting should have been in the hunt for the National Championship year in and year out. The problem is that Carr's coaching was too conservative and utterly predictable. Let me guess.....run...run...pass on 3rd and 5? Every now and then he "spiced things up" with...wait...WOW THE DOUBLE REVERSE......insanity!!!!! The main reason why Michigan was good under Carr is because the elite recruits, the talent that was there, carried the team for at least 8-10 wins per season. It certainly wasn't Carr's coaching provess/playbook. Many times Michigan should have won the game because they simply had the bette athletes on the field but our staff was flat out outcoaches (i.e. Appalachian State). Make some f'ing adjustements.....umm...umm..duhh. He was a stubborn dinosaur. He learned from Bo and was unable, or unwilling, to adapt to the newer, faster version of the game.
In addition to his vanilla offense, I did not find him to be a personable/pleasant person. He avoided reporters and, at times, when asked/challenged by a reporter he was right down rude...crabby, grumpy.
Your assessment of his coaching is a perfectly valid opinion. You're calling him out for being grumpy with reporters though?? Have you heard the some of the questions and repeat questions and rephrased rehashed questions they ask? There's a reason there are so many blowups by coaches in press conferences. If I was a coach I would probably intentionally give them the shortest answers possible and if they asked me the same question someone already asked I'd point to the other guy and say "ask him."
I think Carr had his weaknesses as a coach (specifically his generally risk-averse tendencies) but I don't think it's fair to chide him for not being in national-championship contention on a regular basis. Let's not forget that he won us our only national title in the past 60 years. And really, given what's transpired recently, I don't think we should turn up our noses at the fact that he had 13 winning seasons in 13 years.
Also, the idea that Bo was stodgy and unwilling to adapt with the times does not jibe with the evidence. Compare the offenses we ran with Dennis Franklin and Rich Leach with what we ran with Harbaugh.
I think he had a "steadfast character," but he was also a competitive, crabby coach who has a lot of pride. I was and still am a Rich Rod supporter in that I hope he does well at Arizona. I believe he was given a raw deal and that most likely Carr was probably the opposite of helpful and gracious at times.
However, I don't really begrudge Carr all that much. Very few people are truly black and white. There is usually more gray and complexity to everyone. Although I think what Carr did was probably wrong, it is time to move on with Hoke and the future of the MIchigan program.
*EDIT: I believe Rich Rod was given a "raw deal" from some of the Michigan old school hardliners, but I still thought Rich Rod had to go by the end of this tenure. GERG and the defense ensured his demise.
Carr had to abide by what his boss Martin wanted, despite it being program changing. He could say to Martin that he'd not be in favor of hiring RR, but if Martin insisted, then Carr would have had to resume and recruit RR, which is exactly what he did.
Now, on to the transfers....OF COURSE he'll sign off on them....Do you want to be a program so crappy that you have to resort to artificial means of retention? It would have been against the better part of decency, to try to hold them against their will.. It was a fact that the new program would not be a good fit for several players.
Give Carr a break on this.
HOWEVER..... When he continued to lose consistently to Tressel, he should have been replaced with Tressel's right hand man....yep.... D'Antonio at Cincinnati... akin to Bo/Woody... so we couldn't beat Tressel, then get someone who could (granted we didn't know at the time he was cheating). I don't know if thats on the AD or who...
The one thing you can finger Carr for is for staying on two more years at the request of Martin, and/or having NOTHING to say, of a replacement..... though Hoke would've been nice, eh?
Whoa - you wanted us to hire Dantonio? No thanks.
I'm pretty sure VDog here is a Spartan troll, so yeah makes sense he would suggest Dantonio
I think Lloyd prioritized his people above The Team (at least in the end). My view, sucks for us, but Lloyd's is not a wrong approach.
If Lloyd advised Mallet, Weinke, Arrington, Mannigham, et al to make the best decisions for them, that is OK. All of those decisions were the right ones for those players. Adrian and Mario's stocks were not going to be higher than they were post-Cap One Bowl. Mallet fared better at Arkansas, and Wienke was not going to be a fit / had better odds of being successful at Iowa.
As far as I can tell from 3 and Out, the Mallet rumors and story, this story, etc., Lloyd actually helped get Rich Rod the interview ... so he seemed to be interested in Rich as a candidate. Then at some point that went south. I am betting when Rich fired all of Lloyd's people (which by all reports happened in a less than respectful way). And Lloyd did very little to support Rich publicly after that.
The key there is a Rich did not handle the letting go of Lloyd's people the right way (nor did he field a defense or special teams the right way), and Lloyd did look out for his peoples interests ahead of the team's and did not publicly support Rich. BOTH points of view are true.
I have yet to see proof that Lloyd actively undermined the team beyond simply taking care of his people. So, I give him a pass, though - based in my version of Bo values - I feel awkward about it.
Rich did not inherit the best situation, which did erode his base and make his situation harder. However, he never fielded a fully competent team, and I had no reason to believe defense or special teams would get any better. So I give Rich a fail, with well wishes moving forward at Arizona.
Then again, I am a fierce pragmatist.
I disagree until we hear from Carr or someone who knows what he did.
If you're waiting for Carr to speak out on this stuff, you may be waiting for a long time.
Yeah because being part of a ceremonial coin flip clearly means he's involved with how the team is run on a daily basis.
And you say I don't know what I'm talking about
when you need it??? Someone post it, please!!!
If Lloyd was so against hiring Rich Rodriguez, shouldnt he get bones for being kind of right?
Ya, but then there are conflicting reports about Carr being the guy who reached out to RR and was one of the individuals who seemed to be spearheading not only the RR interview but possibly the hire. Carr seemed gun-ho about the hire and then reneged on his interest in RR.
On the note of the story, it isn't really that big of a deal. From the kid's story it seems Carr was just saying that his style would be better at Iowa then under a spread at Michigan with RR. As people below have noted, it seems like he was just offering his unbiased opinion on where the kid's style of play would fit best. Maybe he should have suggested the kid contact RR and his offensive staff, but we really don't know cause the kid only relates one small slice of the story. Until more to a story emerges, I am going back to salivating about the Bama game.
...he was "gung-ho" about hiring RichRod. Gun-ho is the .22 caliber pistol a prostitute keeps in her boot.
I think that would actually be a Ho-Gun. Then a "Gun-Ho" would be a Ho who only has sex in exchange for guns? Or with guys that own guns? Or with guns?
In any case, it seems like a more fun topic to debate than whether or not Lloyd Carr steered this kid to Iowa. Even if we could use a more consistant punter right now.
Too bad they weren't invented in time to protect SMU-area hookers back in the 70's when allegedly CJK5H. Could have altered the course of alleged history...
According to three and out, Carr was the one who first asked rich rod to interview for the Job
There are also conflicting reports based on the article in the HTTV (re: the signing transfer papers incident.)
I'm willing to just move on.
I'm honestly so past this crap.
Let's focus on now. It's 2012 and Michigan is preseason top-10, off a BCS win and an 11-2 season.
I dread these topics not because of the pain of thinking about a beloved former coach doing something that would make me think less of him, but rather coming here and seeing all this bullshit, with people arguing over utter nonsense.
We have a great team now, with some fantastic student-athletes, extremely dedicated coaches, and great support staff. Let's focus on that, on Bama (which is only 10 days away) and on the season.
THANK YOU!! I agree!
Wait a minute... If I remember correctly, Weinke decommitted before Rodriguez was even hired. I call BS.
Weinke decommitted on or about 12/17/2007 and RR was introduced as the new Michigan coach on 12/17/2007. Lloyd knowing that he accepted the job was likely 1-2 days prior.
Weinke decommitted on the 15th. Best that I can tell, RR was probably informally hired that same day. We know that it took a few days for it to all come together, so LC could have let Weinke know when RR first started getting serious consideration.
*I don't think that LC necessarily did this, nor do I think it's a big deal. I'm just pointing out that the dates aren't necessarily a reason that the story is incorrect.
The article quotes Weinke as saying so, unless people here want to call him a liar, the story is true.
Having said that, I'm over it as well and don't want to make a big deal of it.
It was ther right move (for Wienke) anyway. Not a fit for RR and allowed an extra roster spot and scholly for him to use.
There's one quote from Wienke, but he doesn't include what questions he asked Carr, and it's possible the conversation was different than Wienke remembers. Then again, he was one part of a two-way conversation, and I definitely wasn't present.
Whether Carr did this or not, will that really change anyones view on him? I know I've had my opinion on Carr more or less set for years, and this isn't a bombshell that's about to change anything.
some idiots on this board want to hate on Carr because he put the kid's future ahead of the school landing a commit or two? Good coaches commit to kids just as the kids commit to coaches. The Michigan program didn't hinge on a commit or two, especially if they didn't fit the incoming system all that well.
The Carr hatred on this board is illogical and immature. The U of M AND the community are both better off because of him.
EDIT: Not sure Justin's post was the one I wanted to respond to, since I think we mostly agree w/respect to this thread.
I don't hate Carr. In fact, I was sad to see him retire, and there are a lot of things I loved about him. He didn't seem to care that much whether people praised him or not. He cared for his players. He won the MNC. He pwnd Ohio for many years. He quoted from literature, read history, and had his players read a word from the dictionary any time they came to his office. He put up with the media, but they didn't control him.
Having said that, I know virtually nothing about what happened between Carr & RR. While it is water past the dam, I don't think that means it shouldn't be out there. Wanting to know more about what Carr did or didn't do does not equal hating Carr. I don't want haiography, I want history. If Carr wasn't in control of his team, if his players didn't work out adequately off season, if there was rampant drug use under his watch, if he sabatoged RR, yes, I want to know about it.
I'm equivocal towards the Carr era. He did, and I believe still does, a lot of great things for the university. He also had his fair share of shortcomings.
I haven't seen it brought up from this perspective, though. Which is, what if he was doing Rich Rod a favor?
What if he was trying to not saddle RR with a 6'-5" pocket passer in his first incoming class. Instead, persuade the kid to go to Iowa, then let RR use the scholarship on a spread option QB of his liking in his first class.
He was probably trying to do right by both the new coach and the recruit. I think he did it well.
by telling Denard that he should transfer so that Hoke can bring in a pro-style QB in his first class.
Transferring comes with a much greater cost to the athlete than switiching commitments.
Shenanigans allegedly occurred derp four years ago derp returning to the Present thank you.
Assuming what Wienker says is true...
On the one hand there is "The Team" and doing things for the program. On the other hand there is not screwing kids over and lying to them about their future in the system. Was Carr supposed to tell the kid "Oh no, don't worry you'll do just fine."? Had he done that, the kid would have likely ended up as the third head on the Threet/Sheridan monster. An unhappy head that gets the hell beat of out it and transfers a year later.
A player Carr had been recruiting came to Carr because he trusted Carr and asked for his advice. Carr gave his honest view and that was 'look elsewhere'. I'd have been angrier to find out Carr was lying and abusing the trust the recruits were putting in him.
I still think the better response would be, "talk to Rich Rod and see what you think". I know they had a relationship and all, but the ideal response, IMO, would be to direct questions to RR directly and see how good his answers were.
It's also possible he told Carr that he wouldn't be signing with Michigan under any circumstances, and asked where he thought he might fit in elsewhere.
It all depends on what the kid asked really. He could have talked to RR and been asking Carr for a second opinion as a trusted figure.
Personally, given Wienke managed to removed himself entirely from the QB depth chart and is a three way battle for punter, I have to wonder if Carr was already regretting accepting Wienke's verbal based on Wienke's senior year. So the moment Wienke had a concern, Carr's response was "Yes, yes, decommit, the spread is bad!". Figuring it was better for Wienke to go to a lesser program and it freed up a spot for a RR guy.
For all we know, Carr called RR and said "Hey we have this pro style QB who is getting cold feet. Do you want me to nudge him out the door and free up a spot for you?". RR of course would have been confident in his ability to recruit so he likely would have said yes.
Basically its all about the lens you view Carr through. Unless you had a whole series of wireless mics in Schembechler Hall everything is lacking in context. No one knows what Carr and RR said about Wienke and the like, if there mutual agreements on how to encourage round pegs to go find round holes and the like.
if RR had a problem with Carr's actions. If he did, we're talking about something vastly different than giving Wienke a best opinion on a second option or helping RR with scholarship numbers by steering a recruit he didn't really want elsewhere. The theories in your post (and mine above) don't really get into that situation, so I don't see an issue with any of those scenarios, since RR would have been anywhere from actively involved or passivley okay with Carr's advice. So, in short, fine by me as long as RR was okay with it all.
... we don't know the whole story. However, Carr advising players/recruits that they might be better off somewhere else doesn't sit well with me, regardless of any reason any of you can conjure up.
Carr called RR during the coaching search and suggested to him that he consider the Michigan opening.....
Exerpt from Three and Out:
On Friday, December 7, and again on Monday, December 10, Bill Martin, Mary Sue Coleman and Les Miles talked on a conference call. Both conversations were simple and pleasant. During the second call, Coleman said she could not hire Miles without meeting him first, and asked Miles to meet her and Martin in Miami, where Miles had already scheduled a recruiting trip. Miles replied that he could not do any face-to-face meeting until after the national title game. Miles let them know both times, however, that, "If you want me, then after the bowl game, I will be your coach. I just can't do anything before that. [But] I would never say no to Michigan."
But, incredibly, just a few hours after both calls, word had leaked to the media, then started popping up on the blogs, and quickly traveled down to Baton Rouge. Miles was, understandably, upset -- and effectively boxed in.
That night, in what will likely come as a surprise to most fans, West Virginia head coach Rich Rodriguez -- whose Mountaineers had blown their own chance at the national title game when a 4-7 Pittsburgh team upset them 13-9 -- received a call from Michigan head coach Lloyd Carr. Rodriguez recalled they talked for ten or fifteen minutes.
"It was a very positive call," Rodriguez remembered. "He was definitely encouraging me to think about it."
That next day, the first person to encourage Bill Martin to think about Rich Rodriguez was none other than Lloyd Carr. (Carr did not respond to requests for an interview.)
That night, Bill Martin -- tipped off by Lloyd Carr -- called Rodriguez at his home to inquire about his interest in the Michigan job. Both sides were noncommittal but intrigued. Almost exactly a year after Rodriguez had turned down Alabama, he found himself flirting with the Michigan job. Six days later, on Monday, December 17, 2007, Bill Martin introduced Rich Rodriguez as Michigan's next coach.
Why endorse RR taking over a group of guys who's skillset wasn't necessarily condusive to his success, and then advise players that they might want to head elsewhere after he takes the job?
I don't buy into the "He's thinking about what's best for the player" mentality. Coaches may take this into account, but don't kid yourselves. Head coaches make decisions based on what's best for their progam (and their job security), and that's getting star recruits You don't turn away a 4 star QB beacuse you already have a 4 star committed and 3 more previously highly rated guys on your depth chart. You bring him in because depth is good for your team. Is it good for the guys who don't end up seeing the field but could start elsewhere? As a head coach, do you convince those guys to seek greener pastures (if you aren't worried about scholarship numbers)?
Carr's loyality should have been to Michigan and to the guy he reached out to consider taking over for him. The Carr influenced decommits and transfers might not have fit RR's system but they were skilled athletes who would have provided much needed depth.
And there is absolutely no way that RR says that he doesn't want one of Michigan's then current commitments with two months left before NSD and before he's even announced as the head coach. That notion is silly.
(just wanted to use 3 points in subject)
But have you read HTTV? Not because that's "right"....just because it thinks that a lot of what Bacon says is "wrong."
... that the exerpt that I quoted is inaccurate. There are other parts of the book that are certainly subjective, but this part seemed pretty black and white.
Does HTTV provide some particular evidence that suggests otherwise?
I don't want to give out a lot of their premium content, but the story M-Wolverine is talking about is pretty adamant that this call didn't happen, and that Carr wasn't involved enough to make that call.
Just haven't read completely through it. Will look into it later. Certainly curious as to the context on the rebuttal? Did it come from Carr or Martin or is it denial based on perceived plausibility? Bacon was masterful at persuading readers through inferrences and insinuations. However, this particular part was a detailed timeline based on RR's account of events. Unless the other parties involved say otherwise, I'm inclined to think that Bacon's account is closer to the truth. A phone call from Carr to RR is too important of a detail to remember incorrectly or to have misquoted.
And I'm not sure what all to believe either. Just answering the question posed, and it's definitely in the HTTV story.
But have you read HTTV? Not because that's "right"....just because it thinks that a lot of what Bacon says is "wrong."
And I don't think that's right, at all. There were a few differences, one thing where the two authors were told differently.
But you keep holding out the HTTV article as some authoritative rebuttal to Bacon, and I asked the powers that be about having an open forum/debate on that and they declined, thinking that it was not what was intended by anyone, and is not something that anyone was comfortable with.
Personally, I didn't see any big deal and no significant contradictions. The only reason that I wanted a fight, was because you seemed to be picking one. I wanted to give you the fight you were looking for. I was always confident that Bacon et al could back up what he wrote.
I got a kick out of this language - "you keep holding out the HTTV article as some authoritative rebuttal" - considering how often you refer to Three and Out as if it's some kind of holy text literally penned by God.
Whenever Carr, Brandon, or anybody else wants to do their own book, I'll be in line to buy it. And I'll be there for the author Q-and-A's.
You boys can write your own books too.
I'll never forget how Deadspin ridiculed this blog for going after Michael Rosenberg; calling us "fanboys." Who are the fanboys now?
You only see what you want to. Thus the quotation marks saying we don't really know who was right or who was wrong. I suspect a bit of both. If you don't see some flat out differences of opinions in the two works about what can and could have happened, I can't help you. You see what you want to see.
Bacon has had a lot of chance to let us know how he sourced conversations had by people who weren't talking to him, and people who were talking to him weren't a part of; or more importantly how he was embedded with the coaching staff but has no idea what was going on with the defensive staff. He's deftly dodged answering any of that stuff in a direct way. And it doesn't matter. You think this was uncovering Watergate, but it's just another sports book that will be in the bargin bin in another year. It made good press releasing it in the middle of the season, but no one who matters even cares about it anymore. I know you sleep with it under your pillow....good for you.
As for the why...I mainly ask it to tweak you because you thought that getting an advanced copy from a book signing made you some sort of insider with secret knowledge and you asked that to everyone before the book was even released knowing they couldn't have, and that somehow made you right. When most things have been shown to just be the opinions he was fed by Rich, and you've really based everything you believe off a certain point of view. Which is fine, as long as you're not fanatical about it.
on matters like the Jeff Casteel background, thanks to what came out through the book. I get it.
And when did I ever claim to be some sort of insider? I didn't.
It still doesn't make you right. And just like HTTV casts doubt on your bible, that you continue to ignore the fact that when he didn't want to leave WV for less money he didn't (Michigan) and that when he did want to leave WV for less money (Arizona) he did shows it wasn't as much about the money as you and Bacon's WV source claim as it was about not moving his family from a place he thought he was head coach in waiting and then moving when it became obvious he would NEVER be head coach. Not the money. But I know thinking otherwise would shatter the imaginary world you've created. So I'll await you spending all night looking for links in the investigative files you've created that no one will ever read but you. Have fun!
Edited: for Late night typing.
Why are you taking this book as absolute fact?
This is coming straight from Wienke, so I think this is pretty reliable. But honestly, I don't have a problem with this particular situation, as opposed to, say, Mallet . Unlike Mallet, Wienke wasn't going to help the '08 situation any, and he wasn't ever going to play in the spread-option.
If anything this provides some backstory that sheds better light on Carr. Yeah, signing blank-check transfer orders probably wasn't a cool thing to do, but this is a situation where it seems Carr could have been doing it out of genuine concern for the guys he recruited and cared about rather than a malicious intent to hamstring his successor.
Things aren't always as black-and-white as they seem. I think Carr's behavior through the transition was bad, but perhaps his motives weren't awful. Wienke certainly wouldn't have had it any better here than in Iowa City.
Plus, he saved RichRod the inevitable PR disaster which would have ensued from failing to honor the scholarship offer.
.... taking into account what's best for the player is not the top priority for head coaches at top football programs. Every coach for every relevant program would have the best 85 players in the country on scholarship if they could. Not all of those players are going to contribute, but it's not likely that a coach would be telling them to head elsewhere because it's in their best interest.
I don't doubt that Carr had some genuine concerns about the players now that he wasn't head coach. I certainly don't think he was intentionally trying to sabotage Michigan or RR. His mentality and priorities had changed.... but that doesn't make what he did right.
why? he got mallett in the first place by being honest... you want him to begin to lie? it was not a good fit, and thats what his dad asked lloyd. lloyd was being honest, as he should be.
I started to write a post about how it probably was the right move, and then I realized I just really don't give a shit.
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOHOKE!
But if Carr honestly though that as the case, doesn't that make him a good person? Lloyd likely had a relationship with Weinke, and cared about his well-being. So isn't Lloyd putting the person first a good thing here?
I know it's not the best for the program and whatever, but we bitch when coaches put the best interests of the program ahead the recruits, so how can we complain when one of our coaches does the opposite?
In the long run, the best interest of the kid IS ALSO the best interest of the program.
Should Hoke have told Devin Gardner to transfer last year? He provided much needed depth behind Denard, but he
probably arguably would be better off elsewhere.
Ask Ryan Tannehill if he would have been better off transferring from T A&M as he sat behind 2 upperclassmen and played some WR his first couple years just to get on the field. He started one year... his 5th year. #8 pick in the draft.
I see your point... but telling a kid like Tannehill, or Gardner, to stick it out and learn the system because it will pay off in the end is much preferred.
I also bet you big money that Elliott Mealer is pretty damn happy that he didn't transfer to start somewhere else the last couple years. He's going to be a UM staring offensive lineman... 4 years after first putting on the winged helmet.
Would they all have been better off somewhere else? We'll never know... but we know they wouldn't be Wolverines. So, to me, (and obviously to Gardner and Mealer) that is more important than starting somewhere else your sophomore and/or junior years.
.... is not the same as playing behind someone with the same eligibility or more. Think Keith Nichol at Oklahoma.....
Regardless, I'm sure there are also examples of players finding success after deciding to stay with programs after a coaching change and a new offensive philosophy that didn't necessarily coincide with their perceived skillset.
"Back where I come from there are men who do nothing all day but good deeds. They are called phila…er, phila…er, yes, er, Good Deed Doers. "
With that being said, Lloyd Carr is the greatest phalantropist in this University's history (If you disagree, name me another person.)
You aren't even close. Now I must say that I don't know how much money Lloyd has donated to the University and the Medical Center/Mott Childrens' Hospital. But these donations dwarf Lloyd Carr's entire personal fortune whatever it may be:
So there are three. My guess is that Bill Martin has personally donated much greater amounts to the Unversity and to the Athletic Department, than Carr. Carr can't be within the top 100 living donors to the University.
What he has been, is a tremendous fundraiser for Mott. But Lloyd Carr is not exactly a philan- uh, phila- uh, Good Deed Doer.
Nobody forces you to come here.
Section 1 gets negged because he holds the Guiness World Record for beating dead horses.
You get negged because everyone knows who you are and remembers you from the multiple times you've been banned.
Hell, judging by this thread, I thought it was "Fight Club."
I honestly don't know but a couple of well worn sayings about the The Team, The Team, The Team and Those Who Stay Will Be Champions make me think he did the wrong thing here.
Maybe Carr felt obligated to tell Weinke (who would have been a 3rd string depth-guy, at best, for his program) to look elsewhere because he knew the kid would never play (in hindsight, he should have suggested MIami Ohio or Akron).
Stories of Carr telling potential starters to leave have proven essentially untrue. But if he was telling a kid who hadn't even put on a winged helmet that he'd be a better 3rd stringer somewhere else other than UM... I can't get upset over that.
The damage to the program from this transfer is incalculable. Wienke could have filled that huge need we have at Quarterback.
I mean, c'mon, he hasn't thrown nearly as many picks in the last three years. It's not even close.
I was just about to say the same thing. When I think of Wienke running the spread, well, I can barely control myself.
Sounds like he gave a kid good, sound advice...
I think a lot of the Carr hate comes from either a misunderstanding or difference of opinion regarding Carr's priorities. I always had the sense that the student-athletes' well being was more important to Carr that virtually everything else - including Michigan's football record. He wasn't going to ruin a kid's career (or life) just because doing so made Michigan slightly more likely to win football games. That's my impression, at least, and it's the view that I'd like to think I'd have as a head coach.
On the other hand, If you believe that Carr's obligation is to put Michigan before everything else, then he comes across as a traitor when he's looking out for people at the expense of the Michigan football program.
Just because someone thinks they were doing the right thing doesn't mean it is the correct or proper thing to do. Carr can try to help all he wants, but influencing personnell decisions before the next guy is introduced as the coach is not a good practice. It isn't so much this decision that irks me, it's the thought of him doing this with others that has me questioning the decision. It isn't as though he just drifted off quietly into his retirement. He took a job in the athletic department. His advice to recruits should have stopped the minute he announced he would be retiring at the end of the season.
story could cut both ways. At that point in time I think Carr was still on board with RR and even had been the one to suggest him. The "transfer papers" event could have been more motivational than degrading, more like "I don't want to hear anything about it, either you are in or you are out, and if you are out, don't let the door hit you on the way out." The incident is ambiguous at the very least.
Could be. After the bowl game against Florida, in the locker room Carr told his players something like, "Now go and finish what you started, and graduate." (It's probably somewhere on Youtube.) It sounded to me like a challenge to stick it out through the transition. I don't know why Bacon didn't mention this speech at all in the book.
Why's everyone hating on Carr? Even if he did advise them they'd have more success in a pro style, what's the big deal? He was being honest....
You should probably mention that Carr was right about Weinke having a better shot at starting at quarterback there. What good would his advice be if it was always "you should go to Michigan." Would he have started over Threet in 2008? Or even Sheridan? Maybe, but I can't think he would have made a very big difference that season to us. Meanwhile he would have been a total wrong fit unless his head coach was fired.
What is this 2008 you speak of? Who is Threet and Sheridan?
Bring out your dead horses!
Bring out your dead horses!
Kudos to Carr for being honest and giving a recruit good advice.
The article didn't say Carr encouraged him to transfer, but rather gave him good advice. He might have made his mind up before he talked to Carr.
If Wienke had played ANY other position besides QB I'd be the first one to be critical of Carr over his seeming betryal of Michigan to serve his personal agenda. Ok wait....not the first, that would be Section 1 obviously but I'd be right up there in the thread.
But a pro-style QB? He'd never play or contribute and unles he flipped to D and tackled people he wasnt going to help Rich anyways.
Section 1 response in 5, 4....
Sorry to disappoint -- I don't see the big deal.
I was never much of a Carr-hater. And I don't see that there is sufficient detail in this fluff-profile about Wienke, to make any grand judgments about Carr.
It is always Carr's prerogative to address stories about him; tell his side of the story, and answer questions. Write a book. I'd welcome it. I'd have a few questions for him. And they wouldn't necessarily be any kind of a cross-examination.
But here's my question for the MGoBoard: Why did this post get a massive neg-bang? What did the OP do, or say, that was so terrible? He found, far afield from the usual Michigan news media, an article that mentioned Carr in some significant aspect. And he posted it. Don't you appreciate that? The way that a community can self-aggregate news? What exactly was wrong with the OP?
Carr's crime was looking out for the best interests of his players and recruits over the interests of the incoming administration, which is forgivable in my opinion, even respectable if not a bit mis-guided. If you praise Hoke for creating a "family atmosphere" and being a straight shooter with the player's interests in mind you can't turn right around and complain that Carr should have convinced player's to stay in a less than ideal situation for a couple more W's.
Besides, we got Denard and Iowa got a punter, so things worked out.
Would you be defending RR had he convinced all his recruits to go elsewhere?
in mind, such as a much better fit elsewhere with the new staff coming in.
Doing the right thing fits every situation.
That's quite the expansion of scope. Carr gave solicited advice to one recruit (that we know of) that he'd be a better fit somewhere else. He also allegedly stated he wouldn't stand in the way of anyone transferring, which while not sending a great message, isn't the same as convincing everyone to go elsewhere.
While I understand the point, can you imagine the outrage if Denard and Gardner both transferred and then told a reporter they talked to RichRod who said Oregon was still running their type of offense and they should probably transfer there because Hoke won't run an offense to utilize their talents? I'm guessing the sentiment wouldn't be "RichRod was just looking out for their best interest as a run-first quarterback....what a good guy."
I admit the fact that Lloyd's guy is now a bench riding punter type substance makes it easier to forgive than would be the case with a Heisman hopeful whom we've all come to know and love over three seasons. However, it has nothing to do with favoring Carr over RR. In the end, what's right is right, and coaches looking out for their players is generally a good thing.
speaking of Denard fitting into a west coast offense.
I agree completely. While I may disagree with LC on this (Rodriguez would have created a system to use most of these guys if they were good football players), I understand his intentions and if I remove myself from being a Michigan fan (one who's been irritated by Coach Carr since midway through his career) I can't fault him for looking out for a kid's best interest.
And it clearly worked out as Wienke is now a punter at Iowa.
The season starts in 10 days!!!
Does this mean the season really starts in 20 days?
35 posts in and no Section 1?
Why people continue to post this junk is beyond me.
if everyone praising Carr's advice would have the same conclusion if it came out that RR lobbied Denard, Molk, Gallon, Smith, Dileo and others ill-suited for the new offense to transfer to another team in the league that runs a spread?
I realize we are talking about starters vs. a backup but the logic still holds - you could make a strong case that these players' talents would be put to better use at another school. My opinion is that Carr should not have been involved in the decisionmaking process and should have referred all questions to the new coach.
Transferring and committing are two different things.
How many transfers did Carr approve?
John U Bacon (the guy with actual access) would disagree with you on that point.
Carr didn't sign anyone's transfer papers.
...to a blow hard. I believe I will recommend my friends stay away from a blog run by somebody who can't be honest and reasonable.
Good day to you.
that what he's saying isn't actually true?
Magnus has said throughout this thread that Carr should have been honest with Wienke and told him to go to Iowa. Magnus then argues the only other thing Carr could have done was to lie to the kid or send him into RR's sales pitch.
That is wrong and he is lying to himself if he doesn't see that Carr screwed up by not deflecting the question. Carr had another path and he failed to take it.
Carr screwed up and Magnus is not man enough to admit it.
As for the transfers, the word of Bacon goes much further than an anonymous poster on a website. Magnus may be playing games with "signing" transfers vs. "recommending" them vs. "approving" them or whatever. He has already shown himself to be a Carr apologist to a fault, so who would you believe?
And, the crappy thing about this whole thread is I really like Carr A LOT. I am a Carr fan. I guess that's why I get offended when other Carr supporters make us look bad by taking overzealous/indefensible positions.
Just because "you" see other choices, doesn't mean everyone does.
But what he said was "Carr didn't sign anyone's transfer papers." And he didn't. That's just fact. Because no one transferred while Lloyd was still coach. Some did after Rich was coach, but Rich signed those, not Lloyd. Did he say he would? Bacon thinks so. But even he isn't sure how it was said. And frankly, Bacon has been shown to get a lot of "facts" wrong, and confuse them with "opinions"...most of which he got from Rich, so he wasn't exactly doing an unbiased report either. And then you have guys like Craig Ross saying "Bacon is wrong, that didn't happen."
Who do you believe? Frankly, I'm not sure I believe any of them. You've picked people you want to believe. And that's fine. But it doesn't make it fact.
What is "Fact" is what Magnus stated- that Carr didn't sign anyone's papers, and if all anyone wanted was for a player to talk to Rich, Rich and the players who did leave each had that chance, because Rich signed off on them leaving. As for recruits, this story doesn't make it clear at all if Lloyd said in good faith "this probably isn't the place for you...Iowa might fit you better" or if the kid said "I don't think I'm going to Michigan...what would you recommend?" And he said "Iowa would fit you well."
You see brushing off questions from someone who has trusted you as the smart idea. Others see it as dishonest in and of itself. Doesn't make either wrong.
The only person who doesn't seem to be able to "man up" about right or wrong is the one who thinks what they believe is truth and what everyone else believes is dishonest.
...considers not answering a question to be dishonest.
"You see brushing off questions from someone who has trusted you as the smart idea. Others see it as dishonest in and of itself. Doesn't make either wrong."
If you are talking about "true to one's inner feelings" or something other than honesty, you may be getting to whether Carr had a moral obligation to this HS kid or something. You would be hard-pressed to argue he did.
There is no reasonable way to argue that deflecting that question was "dishonest." It is not a matter of opinion.
If you spend months creating a relationship, telling a kid to listen about what I have to say to do with your future, trust me to look out for you, and let me be your dad away from home, then you get a call and are asked "what do you think I should do?" and give a "no comment" that's intellectually dishonest. "Listen to me then, but I don't know what you should do now?" Either you care about a kid and want to be straight with him, or you're a hypocrite. Saying it's an absolute is silly.
Agreed. Some people put relationships and honesty ahead of school colors or allegiances. I like that.
You're right. I can't be honest and reasonable because I said that Lloyd Carr didn't sign anyone's transfer papers, when the fact is that he didn't sign anyone's transfer papers.
If your friends are dumb enough to believe you, then I'm not really worried about them visiting my site. I'll just have to argue with them over there, anyway.
People would have been equally pissed if it came out that RR told current spreadlike commits or near commits to drop M and go elsewhere in the Big Ten...they would not be praising his straightforward helpful nature as many are doing with Carr here.
Also, didn't Carr allegedy offer to help current players transfer when RR was announced? Not too sure people would have been happy about RR doing the same.
Smart people wouldn't have been upset with Rodriguez. Only the same or equally dumb people who are upset about this Carr/Wienke thing.
And yes, he did "allegedly" help current players transfer; but this year's HTTV article by Craig Ross proves (or claims to prove) otherwise.
people would be very calm and supportive if RR managed to cause Michigan to lose Denard to a transfer to Illinois or something after RR's departure. This is beyond delusional.
Who said anything about transfers? Wienke was in the fall of his high school senior year, and he had yet to sign a NLI.
There's a difference between signing transfer papers and telling a high schooler to verbally commit to another school. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
But what about if RR had told Dee Hart to sign with someone else . . . (I mean before his brief commitment)
Hart may not be Hoke's ideal running back, but most everyone here (not just the stupid people) would have put a hit on RR's life if he'd done that.
For the record, I don't have a problem with Lloyd giving a kid the most honest advice he could when asked, but I don't doubt for a second how pasionate people are about recruiting either.
If my above RR-HArt scenario had ever happened, it would look an awful lot like West Virginia around here.
....how do we know he DIDN'T do that? We did have some decommits from that class. Some were even players more suited for the spread. Rich just might have done that, if they asked him. And if so, particularly at this point...so what? Of course, there is the difference in logic in asking a guy with a storied career who's retiring at a place and a guy who just got fired for advice, so it probably didn't happen. But if it did...if he said "you're too small to be a MANBALL lineman...go to Oregon"....so what.
We don't know, but since there is absolutely 0 evidence that RR ever steered a comit to go to another school, nor even an off hand remark by a player or former recruit so I have no reason to think he ever did. The only related evidence of his actions during the RR-Hoke transition was to urge current players to give the new staff a chance. I don't care if people dislike RR because of his record, but baseless speculation is just that.
I just thought it was interesting how the two ex coaches are percieved by the fanbase (particularly this blog). There are a lot of people in this thread claiming that Carr is just being an upstanding guy by advising a top recruit to seek another program during the coaching transition and I don't think for a second that RR would be given the same consideration.
Just theoretical masturbation really.
Whether Carr or Rodriguez encouraged kids to think through their decisions thoroughly, only an unreasonable person would be upset. Good for Carr if he told Wienke he'd be better off elsewhere. Good for Rodriguez if he told Kevin Sousa he'd be better off elsewhere, too.
I think Hart is a different story. Running backs can be successful just about anywhere, whether they're large or small. If Rodriguez told him to go elsewhere with any certainty, that would be disingenuous.
I just think random speculation is random speculation. But the better question is why you keep coming here. You say you don't like it here. You've been banned at least twice. No one likes you here. (Which is saying a lot). I'm guessing even your family is not that fond of you if you're as negative around them as you are around here. What IS the mentality behind a troll?
At least Magnus still loves me.
EDIT: yes I know M-Wolverine was replying to a deleted troll poster, but damnit Mods! now it looks like I'm the troll!
so I plussed it back up.
Besides what you said was reasonable. Now it probably looks less like you're a troll, and that I'm just a mean dick.
But then, most probably already think that anyway, so no harm on my end.
I don't want you to look like a dick for appearing to over-react when you didn't.
So all i can do is offer you this e-hug as thanks.
[w a i t]
Hart may not be Hoke's ideal running back, but most everyone here (not just the stupid people) would have put a hit on RR's life if he'd done that.
And you know this how?
It amazes me that there are people out there so eager to defend the internet honor of a fired coach that they're perfectly willing to trash our own fanbase in the process.
I know this because a day doesn't go by here without some idiot with an acount created in the last 12 months spoting off about how RR "ran off" Ryan Mallet. (present company excluded)
and you think I should give obsessed fans who are bloodthirsty about the tiniest scrap of recruiting news the benefit of the doubt regarding RR (hypothetically) encouraging a recruit to go elsewhere?
Do you remember Boren transfering?
A virtual prayer vigil discussing whether Denard would stay?
EVERY recruiting saga where our heartstings are toyed with by 17yr old recruits? (even 3*s)
Thats not "trashing a fanbase" it's observing human nature. (and for the record, the "stupid people" was related to Magnus' "smart people" quote.)
The fanbase had turned on RR (for mostly good reason), after the Gator Bowl fiasco virtually evryone was calling for him to be fired. . and you think the fans wouldn't mind him steering a recruit to someone else? I'm sorry about my earlier comparison to West Virginia . . . it would have been worse.
You seem to think I'm a pro RR defender? I'm not, I was damn glad he was fired; but this has nothing to do with defending him, just noting how fickle (and apparently polarizing) Michigan fanhood is.
This shouldn't be that surprising or insulting.
Regardless how many transferred papers Carr signed, he offered help to his playes who wants to transfer, and that's enough to me. Denard did not transfer, but RR never lobbied him and offered any advise.
Who did RR force his offense on? You make it sound like he inherited a boat load of talent and ruined it all. The cupboard was as bare as could be when he got here. I don't have the stats but I would venture over 90% of the offensive production graduated, went pro early, or transferred.
Threat, Sheridan, Minor were all backups at best. The entire offensive line? Did I miss the part where Jake Long came back? That offense was gouge nowhere no matter the scheme.
Michigan switched to a zone blocking scheme in 2006 to take advantage of Hart's ability to read holes. While zone blocking obviously has many variants and different techniques, can be taught very differently, the entire offensive line had been instructed in the ideas used in Rodriguez's offense for two years when he took over.
Threet, bless his soul for trying as hard as he did, could not hit an open receiver to save his life! He still had trouble getting consistent playing time at ASU and was eventually benched before he quit football because of concussion problems. Yeah, we definitely would have beat Toledo by running I form off tackles but at what cost - another season of implementing his offense is lost?
Just to clarify:
We never found out how good Minor could be because of injury.
I'm pretty sure Nick Sheridan was maxed out, but there's really no way to know.
Steven Threet, as has been noted, had a wildly mediocre season at Arizona State (17 TDs, 16 INTS) two years ago as a junior...in a spread passing offense.
I'm fairly certain that Rodriguez figured that he would have 4-5 years at Michigan at the very least and wanted to implement his system immediately on offense so that said players could be peaking by 2011-2012. If this was the case, he was pretty much correct, as the things that seemed to hinder the offense most were youth at QB and a woefully inept defense.
I think its a fair assumption to make that the offensive output we saw against Nebraska and Ohio State would have been the norm throughout the season had Rodriguez had a second year Denard and a healthy Fitz. But who knows.
Okay, but once again:
Minor was hurt for much of 2008 and 2009.
Sheridan was not very good (not his fault, he was never supposed to play major minutes)
Threet proved later that he was around average.
Our top receiver going into that year was Mathews. He was hurt.
You want there to be some level of talent or experience in 2008 and 2009 that doesn't exist that would have allowed you to make sense.
Now if Mallett, Arrington and Manningham stayed, Minor and Mathews were healthy all season and we went 3-9 because Rodriguez was running Mallett 10-15 times a game, I would be with you on Rodriguez being an inflexible one trick pony on offense. But that's not how it happened. We had a really bad offense - not so much due to talent but inexperience - that only got worse with injury. You can say what you want about the defense, but blaming on Rodriguez for wanting to implement his biggest key to success on day one to prepare for the future is not being a "bad coach" in this situation, its being realistic.
Let's make this a valid, fair comparison to 2008's offense.
If this were the case, the three best experienced players on paper for the defense would have never shown up.
So Martin goes pro, RVB enters the draft and hopes to get picked up and Demens transfers to Pitt.
Then, during the season, JT Floyd is hurt for most of it, as well as Craig Roh.
Does the 2011 defense perform at the same level that it did this year? Because that would be a real comparison.
Also, the 2011 defense was not a bare cupboard. This is the fundmental mistake of the RR-bashers: They don't understand the difference that a year or two makes in college sports.
Its much easier to implement, say freshman Blake Countess into the secondary when you have guys who have loads of experience such as Kovacs, Woolfolk, Floyd and Avery. In comparison, this would have been like Threet having a solid, not spectactular line of Juniors blocking for him. Its much easier to fit in a few freshmen in your front seven when you have Seniors Martin and Van Bergen and Juniors Demens and Roh. It would have been like having two freshmen wideouts with a veteran quarterback and a veteran running back who were not hurt.
Once again, your comparison is not valid. There was not the necessary talent or experience in 2008's offense. The 2011 defense had plenty of both (and yes, a great defensive coaching staff).
Right, so now because you're wrong you're going to play it like I somehow made a bunch of outrageous claims and then pick and choose anecdotes that you think fit your narrative.
Read back: All I'm claiming is that there wasn't much to be done with the 2008 offense at that with the injuries, things went from bad to worse. If you want to blame Rodriguez for the defenses and the losses because of that defense, then sure, I'm on board. But acting like there was some road to success with what happened in 2008 is ridiculous. I don't think you can judge him as a "bad coach" as you're doing based on his decision to implement his offense from day one.
Also, didn't I post that that we had a great defensive coaching staff in 2011? I'm just saying that if the 2011 defense had had similar losses in personnel that the 2008 offense did before and during the season, things would not have been the same. No coaching staff could have taken a 2011 Michigan defense without Martin, Roh, RVB, Demens and Floyd and made it a winner. Simple as that.
No need to get so upset because you're not making valid comparisons.
Michigan's 3rd string offensive talent should have been able to beat Toledo in 2008. Do you mean that our 1st string offensive talent should've beaten Appalachi State in 2007?
How do you prove this?
And how do you prove that Michigan's talent in 2007 wasn't greater in degree over Appy State than Michigan's talent in 2008 over Toledo?
Michigan in 2007 was beaten by the same things it always got beat by: A dangerous who didn't have lead injections in his feet.
Now you're just going from crazy to insane.
Mouton, a senior, went pro and Ezeh, a senior, tried to go pro. So no I am not making invalid comparisons. But let's use your reasoning in this case! So by your logic I guess we should have had Chad Henne in 2008? Hell, why didn't Henne, Hart and Long come back! No wonder Rodriguez got fired! He couldn't keep that kind of talent around!
I'm comparing Roh and Floyd to losing Mathews and Minor for extended time on an already weak unit. You're granting extra years to seniors who were graduating.
And for the record, I never said another coach couldn't have done better than 3-9 with that team. Had Hoke come in in 2008 and encountered the same talent that started day one against Utah, encountered the same injuries, but uses his more pro-style offense, does Michigan go 5-7? 6-6? 7-5? I mean really, what games are we making cases for winning? Utah possibly, but Utah was a much better team than us. Toledo sure. Northwestern? Purdue? But do we beat Wisconsin with Hoke? It was never going to be a good year. Rodriguez was setting things up for the future and cutting his losses in what was going to be a disappointing year. Hoke or another coach might have gotten a couple more wins, but we weren't going for a couple more wins, we were going for an overhaul of the system, namely the offense. It didn't work the way it was supposed to, but in its own way, by year 4 it did work.
People just got upset it didn't go as smoothly as they wanted it to (You know, how life tends to work?).
I realize we are talking about starters vs. a backup but the logic still holds - you could make a strong case that these players' talents would be put to better use at another school.
A strong case? Denard, Molk and Gallon did fine last year, and I don't think Smith would have beaten out Toussaint in any system, spread or otherwise. Maybe you could make a case for Dileo, but there we're talking about a guy who was totally under the radar and who hardly played when Rodriguez was here.
Who's to say Mallet wouldn't have been fine if he stayed. You are assuming everyone who transferred or flipped wouldn't have fit in RRs scheme.
Actually, I said nothing about Mallett or Rodriguez. I have no idea how he would have done.
Though RR did not help himself with Mallett due to the public hardon he displayed for Pryor during the recruiting process.
in the pro style offense doesn't mean that they could have done much better elsewhere. In 2010 Denard did historic things that no one had ever done before in the history of CFB. Presumably, he could have done the same or better in a similar system in subsequent years.
Denard threw more touchdown passes, and rushed for more TDs, under Borges than he did under Rodriguez/Magee. He also wasn't run into the ground physically, like he was by the end of the 2010 season. Not to mention that the team won four more games than it did in 2010. I doubt he regrets a thing.
The blind devotion to Carr is getting borderline Ohio St/Tressel levels.
Not even close to being an applicable analogy.
Did you just seriousily compare a guy who gave decades of his life to Michigan (many of them in a secondary role) and picked up the pieces post Moeller firing to a guy who bailed out of college football to avoid a show cause? If only we could still negbomb.
No I compared two guys who were allegedly "just tryin to protect kids."
Technically, you compared the fan's devotion to the coaches, not the coaches themselves.
As both fan bases jab assumed the coach had no ill intent and was just looking out for their kids.
RicRod sucked and failed. He was in charge, not Carr, not the Free Press, so he needed to coach and couldn't.
Great analogy for anyone that had any comprehension level above 3rd grade. I remember Carr would meet with a handicap kid at the donut shop in Dexter just to be nice. I was not a big Carr fan because the games were boring, but we won. He was a great coach and is a great person.
I'm sure you have your arizona hat on now.
Anyone who believes Lloyd Carr did anything to harm the school or football program is woefully uninformed.
I think he harmed the football program - including the kids he recruited - by not speaking out against the Free Press and by not giving some sort of statement about coaching transitions to the media after the first Rodriguez season.
I think that everything you need to know about Coach Carr - that he is a somewhat bitter old man about how he was treated by fans and the media during his time at Michigan - is summed up by his statements prior to the season about last year's team. He stated he thought they were too small to compete for the Big Ten title. For a man who doesn't say much and pretty much clamped up during 2008-10, this pretty much summed it up for me about what he thought about Rodriguez, the spread and the players brought in after he left: Not real Michigan football players. Of course, he was proven wrong by this past year's team equalling his second best record ever at 11-2 (and of course beating Ohio, which he found to be near impossible during the second half of his career), but there he was, grinning at the Sugar Bowl coin flip. Since he didn't seem to care when the Detroit media was tearing away at the team and everyone was screaming that they were the worst team(s) ever (I'm sure that got tiring to the players, so it would have been nice if a respected member of the Michigan family stepped in and at least defended them) I would have preferred him watching from home.
I think the biggest problem with Carr is some people hold him to a standard very few coaches reach when he wasn't quite there. There wasn't anything that stood out about him. He didn't have Bo's personality, Woody's fire, an iconic look like Bear Bryant and he didn't have the winning percentage to triumph over his lack of uniqueness to make him a legend. He was just a solid coach who inherited a talented team that won the 1997 national championship and then just past that seemed to underachieve with the best talent in the Big Ten year after year afterwards.
He's not a bad person, and he's done many wonderful things, but in regards to the football program, he's not Saint Carr, as some of our posters would have you believe. But that's just my opinion.
To move on. Can I?
...but it is true that CRAIG JAMES ALLEGEDLY KILLED 5 HOOKERS AT SMU
Lloyd Carr was a hall of fame coach. Rich Rod gave us the first violtions in our football program's history.
Lloyd Carr isn't a Hall of Fame coach anymore? When did this happen?
Who cares at this point. It's done and we've moved on. The season is upon us and the excitement has returned. Enjoy it while it's here.
1. Carr would have been an asshole if he told Wienke that he should have stayed, when Carr certainly knew that Wienke wouldn't fit.
2. We shouldn't be upset about this, because if Wienke had come to Michigan, he probably would have transferred or quit the team by now. He would have sat the bench for the Rodriguez years, and by now, the best he could possibly be would be a second string QB behind Denard.
So...much ado about nothing. It's a non-factor. Good for Carr, who was honest with the kid he was recruiting.
Or he could have put his ego aside and suggested the kid speak to RR.
The ends doesn't justify the means. Had this kid gone on to win 2 Heismans everyone here would be singing a different tune.
How do you know he didn't encourage Wienke to speak to RR?
And regardless of whether he suggested that or not, a coach should give a kid his honest opinion instead of thinking "You should transfer" but saying "Well, listen to Rodriguez's sales pitch."
Carr was honest, and some of you people wanted him to be sleazy and encourage the kid to make a bad decision. Yeesh.
How is saying, "I don't know what Coach Rodriguez plans to do, it would probably be best if you spoke to him to see how you'd fit in his system," encouraging the kid to make a bad choice? I would say that I encouraging him to get all the info to make an informed decision.
....Carr is not the kid's father and he should have deflected that question to someone else. There is a big difference between what Carr did:
1. "You should probably go to Iowa"
2. "As much as I would like, I don't feel comfortable giving you advice on that. You should talk with your coach/dad."
3. "Listen to RichRod."
Carr screwed up. He is human. Stop going to such effort to defend his clear errors. It makes you seem unreasonable and beholden to him or something.
...but not the only way. First, let me say:I agree with you that it is a "non-factor and no one should be upset by it at all.
However, here is another equally reasonable interpretation:
1. Carr offerred Weinke as a QB. He thought he was good enough to play QB for Michigan. Carr sent the kid to play for another Big Ten team and potentially set Michigan up to face a kid Carr thought would be a pretty good QB.
2. Carr didn't have to lie. He could have just not responded. Wienke had other people to listen to and Carr could have just said "firgure it out for yourself" or "I don't feel comfortable giving you advice about where to go now that I am no longer coach."
I agree with you that it is a "non-factor and no one should be upset by it. I just think it is mroe reasonable to acknowledge Carr didn't handle it well even though he was a good coach and good guy. In the end, no harm , no foul....move along.
I can't think of many reasons that I would advise any student to go to Iowa instead of Michigan, no matter who coaches the football teams.
Degree wise that's true, but if playing time was a serious factor in his recruitment, it was obviously the right move, regardless of how he developed since then.
Actually, it seems to me that he had as much reason to hope for PT as anyone, especially if it was already known that Mallett was transferring. Not in a pro-style offense maybe, but playing time nonetheless. It doesn't seem like the custom of a man who was proud of being an educator first to tell a kid that his chance of playing was not good- that he should give up and go elsewhere. (And did he not know about Shaun King?) For instance, what would have been his advice to a discouraged young Tom Brady when he was far down the depth chart? I suggest that maybe Coach Carr was influenced by mixed emotions, understandably so, and may have given him some guidance that he would not have appreciated as much had Gary Moeller given it to Scott Dreisbach. Do unto others, etc.
Carr should have convinced Coach Rodriguez to switch schools
On so many levels.... Let's just let this be for the history books
He was honest with recruits and they wouldn't have played with Rich Rod. It also freed up scholarship for the offensive genius (genius outside top 25 opponents, which is all WVU played). What is the problem with bring honest Urban? Rich Rod drove our program into the ground. Three and out was Bacon kissing RichRod's ass for letting him follow him around. I was a huge Rich Rod fan, but I realized I was wrong, and some haven't. Koombayah singing RichRod sucked!
a crap about this. I number myself among them.
Still don't care. Live in the now.
Wow that did work out amazing! RichRod fans #weberetarded
If Carr really did this, he was doing both Weinke AND Rodriguez a favor. Rodriguez would NEVER have recruited Weinke.
would you have the same opinion if RR advised Denard to transfer.
Carr was no Bo When it came to "The Team!" I'm just glad he's retired and we have Hoke. Under Hoke "The Team" mentality is BACK.
I love how anyone who isn't praising Carr is being negged for trolling or flaming. Why have an open forum if you just want everyone to agree with you?
You're being negged because you bring no actual information or cogent points to the debate. As evidenced by your Tressel/Carr comments that first got people negging you. At this point you're either being delibrately dense or trolling. Why have a voting function on this open forum if we can't use it?
If you'll note, justingoblue and myself exchanged comments on how Carr should have handled it. We're both at 5 score for those comments right now since we were civil and I think both of us had a fair point (I even upvoted him). There is no blind personality cult voting as a bloc, but the board is intolerant of those who don't back their arguments up with logic or links. It's even less tolerant of voting related gripes.
So I'm supposed to believe that because two long time posters got upvoted, that the system works? Now who's being dense? Certain posters on here could reply with, "my hamsters name is Charlie." and it would get upvoted.
my hamsters name is Charlie
I rest my case.
It wasn't the punctuation that was getting him negged.
My apologies I'm replying from my iPod at work.
So it must be something else.
Though it does seem like you latch onto some topic every two weeks or so and get bombed for it. Might want to work on your delivery.
I usually only post on things I feel strongly on, which would probably explain the lack of tact.
I was going to fix it, but had to run and put Charlie back in his hutch.
hopefully it was posted as fast as I read it.
Also, good to know even more about your family!
He speaketh and Creation!
Also please explain how the majority of Michigan fans defending Carr saying he did no wrong, is not comparable to the OSU fan base saying Trasel did no wrong? Wether or not you believe one was right and one was wrong the quickness in which the fan base defends their old coach is comparable.
Tressel: Lied (in breach of his employment contract and NCAA rules) to keep current players elegible. Tressel admitted lying, was fired by his employer and censured by the NCAA for his actions.
Carr: At absolute worst, advised an ill-fitting committ to look elsewhere for playing time without permission of the current head coach (who would have, under pretty much any circumstances, never extended an offer in the first place and was honoring a past offer). For this he was...later thanked by the recruit in question and nothing has been said by former Michigan coaches.
Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit. I didn't compare Carr to Tressel, I compared how the two fan bases defend them to no end.
Try to keep up.
Since when is perception not supposed to be based on actions? Let me take this to an extreme example: let's say Tressel murders a puppy. If the Ohio fanbase still claim he's a great guy, they're delusional, because great guys don't murder puppies. On the other hand, let's say a little kid really wants a puppy, but the puppy in question is a German Shepherd that needs a lot of room to exercise, and the kids parents live in a small apartment. Lloyd Carr tells the animal shelter, "let's find a different home for this particular puppy". The kid might be sad until he finds another, different, puppy, but the puppy is happier with another family on a farm.
His actions here are defensible, even when taken in the worst possible context; Tressel's are not.
Also, I think this is my first ever MGoAnalogy using puppies.
Using your analogy, let's say Tressel claims he killed said puppy because he felt one of his players was in danger. Of course his fan base would believe him, just the same as Carrs fan base believes him.
What you're missing here is the degree of seriousness between the two. Going back to what actually happened, Tressel repeatedly lied in breach of contract. The worst thing Carr is alleged to have done on this thread is steer a recruit away from Michigan without the backing of the head coach at Michigan. One of those things can leave you as a man worth looking up to, and one doesn't.
If we all turn on the news tomorrow, and they're reporting that Carr had lied to keep Henne, Long and Manningham elegible for the 2006 Ohio game, he would be ripped into shreds on here, assuming the information was credible. There has been plenty of Carr criticism on MGoBlog, from Brian on down, but this isn't something to get hung up on, especially compared to Tatgate.
I am in no capacity comparing the severity of what Tressel did to what Carr did. However, According to Bacon, Carr did much more than (allegedly) steer a single recruit to Iowa; he offered to sign transfer papers for his players before RR ever got to campus. I understand the respect and admiration for Carr, but I feel like Michigan fans overlook that fact.
that's fine. I still think Carr deserves the respect he gets, especially when taking a look at guys like Tressel, Paterno, Kelly, Petrino, ect. who all had scandals related to integrity issues. I might think Lloyd went about things the wrong way, but I think he's always been honest and tried to do things the way he felt was best.
Ok. Let's assume this is fact--that Carr offerred to sign transfer papers before RR ever got to campus. Bacon reports this based on what players told him. But guess what's missing? The context. Those using this as evidence of Carr's treachery seem to assume that this offer was made with suggestions that they should transfer and not stick around to see what RR is all about. But what if the offer was prompted by players grumbling about a new coach and Carr told them, "stick around, talk to the new coach before you make a decision, but if any of you are such pu$$ies you can't man up and talk to the new coach before making a decision, come by my office, and I'll gladly sign.
Same offer, two completely different motives. Since Carr didn't sign any of the transfer offers, it really seems doubful he was actively working to push players away before RR set foot on campus.
Yeah but Carr had integrity and didn't break any NCAA rules, therefore defending him isn't blindly illogical. It has nothing to do with reading comprehension, rather it has everything to do with whether the person's character is worth defending without serious bias.
Right or wrong, both coaches claimed and believed they had their players best interests in mind. You just see it differently because you have Maize and Blue glasses on.
I'll use a real life example. I have NEVER read a single nice thing about Gene Smith here, just lots of terrible things. That said I had the pleasure of meeting him and his wife last year at the Big Ten Championship. Gene was one of the nicest guys I have wet met, even though my belter and I were wearing all Michigan gear. He invited us to come to Columbus this year to watch the game with him and his wife.
You perceive him to be a terrible man because he represents OSU, I know this to be false.
Your Gene Smith analogy has nothing to do with this conversation, he gets a bad rep for being poor at his job, not for being perceived as a bad person...
The Tressel and Carr comparisons are apples to oranges in every way. Tressel might have had the interests of his players in mind, but he also had winning a championship on his mind (having said involved players gave him the best chance to win.) Carr thought that a player might have been a square peg in a round hole once RR was hired so he advised him to maybe look elsewhere.
I honestly don't think you can be this dense, sure there are some here who praise Carr, but there are also plenty who dislike Carr for the way the RR years went down. You are getting negged because you don't seem to grasp the discussion and continue to bring it back to OSU's fanbase vs UM's fanbase when it comes to defending recent coaches.
I will just smile and nod at this point.
You sound like that ignoramus who is on the afternoon show on WTKA on Thursday, Dan from Pinckney.
Get over it already. Get off this board and stop spreading your idiocy if you can't face the fact your lovechild rr was a failure of a coach here.
Seriously. Why are people still giving a shit about him?
It's two weeks away from the season with a REAL coaching staff and a team fresh off a BCS win, and people like you are still whining like it's 2010.
You make it sound like a bunch of fans on an internet forum may somehow cause bad things to happen this season if they discuss the past.
Feel free to keep your head buried in the sand if you cant face the fact that Carr did damage to the program. I never said RR didn't fail. It is extremely possible that had Carr supported him, he still would have failed. But only an "ignoramous" would insist that Carr advising kids to choose other schools and signing off on transfers would help Michigan win football games.
I don't want to live here anymore.
Because during the RR era everybody was thinking "Man, if only we had John Wienke as our qb!"
RichRod ass kiss story.
Anyone know if the practice tonight at Ford field will be open to the public?
both knew we had Threat and Sheridan already. There was no way he could have ran the spread option attack better than those two. Case closed!
Who cares! It wouldn't have even mattered. Replace Sheridan/Threet with Weinke and you have the same result. Pocket passers running the ball with Navarre like mobility. Now kindly Get OFF my Lawn!
We don't need any more of this stuff now. We're on the verge of a huge game and a new season - let it go.
Lloyd Carr looks out for the kids first. This kid was a better fit at Iowa since they run a pro offense. Besides Rodriguez isn't exactly a coach I'd want one of my kids to play for. His former players rarely speak positive about him. I think he's a selfish asshole.
Just think, he could have advised him to go to Iowa and play running back. Gasp!
And the "If Carr had clearly reccomended RR for the Michigan job and was the first person toe contact him, why didn't he support him?" Lets go back into the text of the obviously biased Jon U Bacon himself.
How were Lloyds assistants and staffers dealt with again?? Sitting in a hallway for hours on end awaiting their appointment to beg for a job that the new guy has already made it clear you're not going to get??
Did we miss reading this crucial part of the book? Does anyone not see that this is the moment when the Carr/RR relationship soured? You have more than a couple dozen people who have been a part of your program for years, they have become more than assistants/coordinators/trainers etc. to you, they are like family. When the new guy handles them as poorly as RR did the seeds of discontent were sewn. Every one of those Carr people, when they ran into Lloyd about town, had nothing but hatred for the way they were treated and ol Lloyd got to relive it with them over and over.
Ask yourself how Lloyd would have treated the outgoing staff if he was the new guy?? After all having met the man myself and knowing a couple guys who played under him the one thing that is most often refrained about Lloyd is the word "class". Something the rube from the former Hatfield territory knew to little about.
Bitch about Debord, bitch about undeachieving on the field with talent to do better, bitch about his ultra conservative playcalling and I've got no beef. However to assign such petty adjectives as "self centered, egotistical, crabby, jealous etc." to the man you need to show me where, in our 20+ years of having him a part of the Michigan program and having forged relationships with countless hundreds of kids, he has established a reputation for any of these adjectives? I just don't see it.
Conversely, what reputation had RR forged for himself in WV?? In a trial the chorus of character witnesses for Lloyd would be around the block, with very few that I know of who would testify to the contrary. I don't think it would take long to find somebody anxious to sing about how RR screwed them over on a real estate deal or whatever.
You are what you spend 20 years being, not what some outsider can twist one incident into making you appear to be.
to someone like, uh, you. But...
Firing all of the former assistants, despite the wishes of the hiring athletic director is not new. A guy named Bo Schembechler did it -- he kept two of Bump Elliott's staff, despite a firm request from Don Canham. And Bump Elliott remained staunchly supportive of Bo despite that.
And if you had read Three and Out carefully, you'd have known that Bill Martin raised the same issue with Rodriguez (keeping the assistants), only to have been schooled by a remarkably together Mary Sue Coleman who said firmly, "Bill, you can't ask him to do that..."
The rest of your garbage was so dumb and insulting it was painful to read.
Clearly you missed the point. How were they fired?? Did Bo have Elliots guys waiting in a hallway talking amongst themselves while they awaited the executioner?? I don't know firsthand but something tells me that's not how it happened.
I have been terminated or layed off or downsized 2X in my life of over 40yrs. Once it was handled with dignity, compassion and understanding. Once it was not. My opinion of those respective companies reflects this.
BTW, you're welcome everyone. I got him in here!! and with nothing more than "dumb and insulting garbage".
and that speaks volume to me on RR's character. For those who defend Carr and diss RR, just think about what if Denard is not our QB right now.
I don't get why people are butthurt over this. I'm sure Rodriguez shed no tears.
he was right. Iowa was a better fit for Wienke. If a HS kid asks that kind of question under that circumstance, Carr probably should have defferred any response. But, once he chose to respond, there was only one appropriate answer.
Was no better than our other options... Done with this story.
I don't care about this era anymore. I think it would be better if we all just put it into the past.
I'm done commenting on this.
11-2 and fresh off a BCS bowl win and shit like this is being discussed as if it is relevant to today.
with the OP. I'm just glad he stopped posting about PSU.
agreed.. had DR not been here and UM had gone 6-6 or 7-5, would we be saying that BH was a great fit. On the other hand, had RR gone 11-2. People would be saying he was great fit. Lets be real with each other. WE LOVE A WINNER.. PERIOD! The question will be if BH goes 7-5 (Very possible) this year with a senior lead team, which RR never got, will people still be as excited for him. Same thing happened to LC. When he was beating OSU every year, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, he lost like 3 years in a row and people wanted his head. Everyone one wanted an offense that was more exciting and put numbers on the board. In comes RR. Two losing seasons, and everybody wants to go back to the same offense that was run with LC. As a fan base, we are satisfied with losing 2 games every year. As an alum and a fan, I am not satisfied with that. I want NC!! not B1G or legends divisions, I want NC! I was willing to have a few disappointing years in order to get there. Had they been willing shell out the money for a defensive coordinator during RR time as they did with BH, I guarantee the defense would be better. I think we will be back in the same old 9-3, 10-2 from now on, which is fine by most standards, just not mine.
It amazes be that the "die hard" ("die hard" is quite the understated term in this case) Rich Rod fans' only complaint about Carr is that he is personally responsible for RR's failure because he "allegedly" decided to let his recruits transfer. (No I didn't forget the arguement that the AD's office, former player, and the rest of the United States of America we also the Reason for RR failure.) Somehow this delusion extends to making Carr out to be a bad guy. But as many players and local AA fans that are close to the program have testified, Lloyd was a man of integrity and "players" coach...just like Bo, Mo, and Hoke.
Even if he did approve the transfers and advise a QB to go elsewhere we don't know why. Three and out never inverviewed him. Know one can really say for sure. But many, knowing the man, know that he did it for his players. He put the kids first. Am I the only one who's first response (when reading about Carr's recommending Iowa to a Pro QB and allowing his recruits to transfer) is that this was the highest integrity and most honorable thing to do.
RR could still recruit them. He had a great record coming in. If he wanted the kids, if they fit the new offense, and if the kids felt a personal fit they could have all stayed. To believe otherwise you have to believe that Lloyd was a bitter old man, wanted RR to fail, didn't care that Michigan might go through some tough years. But that would be just as delusional as blaming Carr for RR's failure.
The only other thing we don't know if what happened in the meeting between RR and Lloyd that "some believe" made him change his mind about trusting RR with his. And clearly, Lloyd isn't going to tell why he changed his mind about RR.
simply disgusted with what he did.
he would have had Mallet guy turned out pretty good against better D's than the Big Ten, Adrian Arrington for a senior year since he owed everything to Lloyd for letting him back on the team, Mario Manningham who unless I am completely lost today had 1 year left. Plus the other guys who left cause the system was not for them or whatever reasons. So yeah blame it on Bill Martin who had no one on the roster to fit the new scheme waited 8 years if felt like to replace a guy who we all knew stayed for Hart, Henne, and Long and all the other seniors. Lloyd did not like Rich Rod cause he hated Miles and Miles choice after turning us down was none other than Richie Rod.
Lloyd Carr and I cried watching the men in maize and blue carrying him off the field after beating the Gators in a game way closer than the real score told. Now Lloys is my homeboy no question and can never do wrong in my mind or eyes. And for all the so called bad things he did for Rich and the incoming recruits well damnit he had the right to do that. One last thing I have also heard Mr. Lloyd Carr tried retiring a few years before like 3 or 5 in that range because he had an illness or just found he he was ill, not life threatning but I think Parkinsons ( dont kill me if that part is wrong. He was told he was not aloud and they begged him to stay cause he was the face of the University of Michigan and there was not a coach in waiting or an ex- michigan ready. So if that is true and he did stay 5 more years I am pretty sure he can do what he wants end of story. So basically the guy did some things Bo couldnt do and never did in 8 less years as a coach with stiffer competition and less scholarships, Bo could get all the players just to keep them from other teams. I also kinda feel us U of M fans are spoiled and 9 or 10 win season all day and night, top5 recruiting classes regularly and Big Ten Titles and BCS games every other year, and most wanted him out and thank God for Hoke cause he is savin g all of us from the old saying it isn't always greener on the other side.
First, Hoke owe a lot of his success in his first season to the fact that Denard stayed.
Let's get some facts straight.
1. The vast majority of the fans got very tired of Carr towards the end of his career, because his ability to beat Tressel.
2. The horror, the horror, the horror
3. RR was abolutely a star at the time he was hired, who was offerred the Alabama job as well.
4. Carr didn't give RR any support from the moment RR was hired, and offerred to sign off transfer forms before RR was able to meet the team.
5. RR is responsible for his own demise at M but he brought in majority of the key offensive players on the current team, including, Denard, if not the most popular player in M history, is very close to be the most popular player in M history.
6. When RR exited, he could have done what Carr has done, advised some of his players and recruits, especially, say Denard and Gardner to transfer, for the exactly the same reason that Carr argued, bad fit to a pro-style offense. RR didn't not do it even he was no longer affiliated with the university and even he exited not on a good term. RR is a classy guy that Carr is not.
Craig James also killed five hookers...
It's in the past. Can we please stop talking about what Carr allegedly did or didn't do during the RR years?
... A train to Bolivia.
Actually, can I get an update on who RR is recruiting? Because I don't give a flip about that either.
Thankfully David Brandon came to his senses and shitcanned Lloyd's ass right out of that fake ass job Bill Martin gave him.
If you were the parent of that kid and your son's career was going to be ruined because of a change is system, wouldn't you want Carr, the coach who recruited him, to tell him the truth?
Suppose Carr comes back to coach. Are you going to take this against him and not let your kid play for him? I am more inclined to have my son play for him.
sounds like lloyd carr was being honest with this particular student athlete.
i'm ok with that.
My impression of this thread:
I do not know enough information to pass judgment. It is an interesting detail.
So what's the over/under on total posts for this thread by noon tomorrow?
I say 350.
Under, the ritual combat has been performed many times and there are fewer angles to explore.
I remember when Carr retired and the search was hot and heavy and I heard the name 'Hoke'. I rolled my eyes. So I lack any credibility to render an opinion at this or any other time when it comes to this topic.
The mid and late 90s were some of the best defenses. I think the pressure of winning put Carr under stress later in his coaching career but overall he was a great HC.
I know Carr did not want Miles to get the HC job! This may be the reason he jumped at RR. He may have taken the firing of his staff too personally. The new HC gets to pick his staff. Unfortunately, RR did not manage to fit his assistant coaches on defense. I was surprised Casteel did not follow him to Michigan.
RR tried but I think he went too quick to the spread without spread offensive players. Then the defense fell apart on him due to poor coaching IMO! Hoke and his OC were smart enough to incorporate enough of the spread to have a successful offense. Plus Greg was a great pickup and was a much better coach than anyone RR could get.
I was an RR supporter and wanted to give him 4 years to turn the football program around, but during the '09 and '10 season, seeing how the defense never jelled, finally convinced me that RR was not the complete HC for Michigan.
I'm glad we have coach Hoke! Given the tough schedule and a slight lack of depth in some areas, I will not get too upset if we lose 4 or 5 games this season. Though, I'm predicting we'll go 9-3 and win the B1G!
it took about 3 years on Nebraska fan boards for the wounds to heal and everybody moved on rehashing Bill Callahan. So you're only looking at about 2013 for this sort of discussion to end.
But did anyone ever really embrace Callahan?
and many bought into the "our offense is stale and old fashioned and we need to make major changes" meme. And as things unraveled on the field and cherished win records were snapped, Big Red fans bickered and split into factions.
Main reason I started visiting your board originally was watching in horrified fascination as the same situation repeated here. It was so similar on so many levels it was downright creepy and like living the whole thing again, but I couldn't avert my eyes.
Judging from last season, you guys won't have long to put it behind you.
To Frank Solich.