Can a non "guru" coach succeed?

Submitted by massblue on

It appears that successful coaches are so-called gurus in one aspect of the team.  Some are offensive gurus such as Urban, while some are defensive gurus such Saban.  Is there any successful program where the coach is not really good in one aspect of the football?  By the way, this seems to be more of a case in college football than in NFL where there are many so-called CEO coaches (e.g., Harbaugh brothers).

In case of UM it seems that both Bo and Carr where the CEO types while RR was the guru.  Hoke is obviously the former.

KC Wolve

November 11th, 2013 at 9:39 AM ^

I actually just had this conversation. You obviously can, but I would def prefer my coach being an "expert" at something. Being clap hands guy is great if your OC and DC are studs, but even then, you only have stud OC and DC for a few years before they get hired away and you are left with clap hands guy.

Schembo

November 11th, 2013 at 9:20 AM ^

It really just depends on how good your coordinators are.  In the case of Hoke,  he needs to be a strong leader, the face of the program and an excellent recruiter.  All of those things he does really well.

turd ferguson

November 11th, 2013 at 9:50 AM ^

I totally agree with this.  In fact, if I were sketching out my ideal coach, I think he'd be a great leader, teacher/mentor, face of the program, and recruiter who makes good in-game decisions (e.g., has a good sense of when to go on 4th down)... and one who's able to hire great coordinators and willing to let them do their jobs.  Obviously we have coaching issues on the offensive side that need to be resolved, but aside from that, I think Hoke's close to my best case scenario.  The fact that he loves the institution and won't leave only helps.

jblaze

November 11th, 2013 at 9:28 AM ^

The problem is that you need to pay assistants very well and give them a lot of credit, so that they don't jump ship.

The other issue is that you have 3 chefs in the kitchen, which may be better than 1, if they are all on the same page.

I also think saban's coaching ability is exaggerated. His recruiting is unbelievable, I mean Dee Hart doesn't play there and would have started at M as a freshman.

Trebor

November 11th, 2013 at 10:25 AM ^

With the amount of money the program is raking in? Of course they could - if a school like Clemson can afford to keep Chad Morris on at $1.3 million a year, there's no reason why Michigan, with an operating budget much larger, can't similarly afford a top-tier OC.

Continuity is another question, but plenty of schools have handled coach/coordinator turnover without significant issues. Hire the position coaches in a smart manner and you have an easy pool of candidates already familiar with the system to plug and play.

jmblue

November 11th, 2013 at 5:45 PM ^

His recruiting is unbelievable, I mean Dee Hart doesn't play there and would have started at M as a freshman.
I agree that Saban's recruiting is fantastic, but how do we know that Hart wasn't just overrated? This year he has 53 rushing yards on 17 carries (3.1 avg), and that's behind Bama's line.

EnoughAlready

November 11th, 2013 at 9:34 AM ^

Was Tressel a guru?  Bob Stoops?  Harbaugh at Stanford?  Is Dantonio?  (Sure, there's hatred for him.  But he has MSU playing at its highest level...ever?)  Was Carroll a guru?  Seems to me there are plenty of examples...

swan flu

November 11th, 2013 at 9:45 AM ^

I think there's a confounding variable here. Where do head coaches come from? The ranks of coordinators. Usually successful coordinators get head coach positions. To be a successful coordinator, you almost gave to be a "guru." There is no leadership coordinator

GoBlueInNYC

November 11th, 2013 at 9:51 AM ^

I know you said "usually," but I think it's worth pointing out that Hoke was never a coordinator. He's a defensive guy, but his career path was to take small school head coaching jobs and work his way up that way.

Personally, I don't know enough about a lot of coaches' backgrounds to know off the top of my head which ones are former coordinators v. Mack Brown style CEO coaches.

Shaun

November 11th, 2013 at 10:21 AM ^

It should also be noted that, while not typical, Urban Meyer, a "guru" HC, was never a coordinator either. He went from WR coach at ND to HC at Bowling Green.

It may have actually allowed him and his staff to be a bit more creative. They got to create their own offense by bringing together various concepts from around the country that they liked, and they got to experiment with it at BG, where losing was the norm, the risk was somewhat low, and Urban didn't have anyone above him questioning the experimental (at the time) offense.

 

angry byrne

November 11th, 2013 at 11:53 AM ^

Also:  Dabo Swinney at Clemson was never a coordinator, he was a s&c coach, then a WR coach at Clemson before becoming head coach.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, but there's a few to add to the discussion.  Both Jones and Swinney have obviously had success where they've been.  (Yes, I know Tennessee isn't good this year, but it's only Jone's first).

bighouse22

November 11th, 2013 at 12:39 PM ^

Les Miles was OC at Oklahoma State before he eventually became their head coach.

Pete Carroll was both an OC and DC at points in his college coaching career before he took over at USC.

Mack Brown was an OC at both Iowa State and Oklahoma during his coaching career.

Gary Pinkel (Missouri) was the OC for Washington.

Nick Saban was the DC for the Cleveland Browns under Bill Belechick

Bobby Bowden was OC at West Virginia prior to Florida State.

There are two notable exceptions to this standard:

Jim Harbaugh - Played QB in College and the Pro's so he would have had a deep understanding of how he wanted to run an offense going in, but no coordinator responsibilities prior to 1st head coaching stint.  Transformational Personality Though.

Urban Meyer - Innovative (spread offense & aggressive attacks on both sides of the ball) and strong/demanding personality, but no Coordinator history.

joeyb

November 11th, 2013 at 9:50 AM ^

Logically, the issue with having a guru for a coach is that you are tied to that system. If the system fails or begins to fail, you have to go through an entire regime change. Having a CEO for head coach allows you to potentially hire gurus as coordinators and change out just that piece if it begins to fail. The downside is that gurus can then leave for hc jobs elsewhere a la Gus Malzahn.

Brown Bear

November 11th, 2013 at 9:53 AM ^

Les Miles, Mack Brown, Nick Saban(he's a great coach but I've never heard him described as a guru), Jim Tressel, Jim Harbaugh and whoever is Stanford's current coach. Gurus as you put it aren't everywhere and are more of a rarity. Good coach doesn't have to be a specialty type coach.

Don

November 11th, 2013 at 9:54 AM ^

I won't claim that there aren't holes to be poked in this way of looking at coaching styles; for example, guys like Bill Snyder or Don James don't seem to fit any of these categories in an obvious way. I do believe all coaches are in reality a combination of styles or personality types, but I also think most have a dominant type. I'd be interested to read your collective criticisms and comments regardless.

In college football, I think there are four distinct personality types that characterize most coaches. All coaches display mixtures of these traits, but each coach has a dominant characteristic.

A. Demanding taskmaster—aggressive, military-style, devoted to extremely rigorous work regimen, details and execution, but not necessarily innovators; frequently an asshole; doesn't give a shit if you like them, but demands that you respect them. Knows exactly who they are and what they want, and will not let anybody stand in their way; frequently hired to revive foundering program; generally place supreme emphasis on stout defense; Woody Hayes, Fielding Yost, Bear Bryant, Darrel Royal, Tom Coughlin (coached at BC), Nick Saban, Jim Harbaugh, Barry Alvarez, Mark Dantonio

B. Innovator—thinking, cerebral, or creative in developing offensive, or less-frequently, defensive schemes; doesn't give a shit if you like them, but demands that you be a thinker too. Does not tolerate dullards or the mistake-prone. Generally an outside hire; Fritz Crisler, early Rich Rodriguez, Urban Meyer, Mike Leach, Brian Kelly, Chip Kelly, Paul Brown, early Steve Spurrier, early Bob Stoops, Bill Walsh, Emory Bellard; (maybe even Frank Beamer if you include special teams); sometimes reputation for genius is entirely undeserved (Charlie Weis) or is at best ill-suited to the college game

C. Program manager—Frequent inside hires as replacement for iconic coaches; bureaucratic stewardship; generally bland, unassuming public demeanor in contrast to predecessors; always says "the right things" in public; not generally innovators but can be very successful in the right conditions and with good instincts in choosing assistants; very attentive to program reputation and tradition; normally very loyal to assistants and players; Tom Osborne, Frank Solich, Earle Bruce, Fred Akers, Kirk Ferentz, Bret Bielema, Bob Davie, John Robinson

D. Player's coach—Prizes relationships with players and enjoys being seen as one of them; frequently inspirational, sometimes innovative, strong recruiter; occasionally tolerant if not encouraging of player misbehavior on and off the field; Barry Switzer, Jimmy Johnson, Pete Carroll, Les Miles

........................

Bo Schembechler's legendarily fiery, aggressive and combative personality (Bo could be a real dick if you weren't on his side) was coupled with extremely high standards for production and a tremendous grasp of fundamental details, and the result was what came to define Michigan football for the vast majority of us growing up. Bo was major part A

Gary Moeller was fundamentally different in personality from Bo (at least outwardly) but he was a thinking offensive innovator who put together some high-powered offenses that were among the nation's best, and got a Heisman for one his guys in the bargain. Combination of B and C.

RR was an offensive innovator with much of the same fire and intensity as Bo, but unfortunately he almost completely lacked Bo's ability to discern and hire great assistant coaches, especially on the defensive side. That was crippling, since RR also played surprisingly little role in the defensive side of the game himself, another huge contrast to Bo. Combination of B and A

Lloyd Carr was thoughtful, reflective, and cautious—frequently maddeningly so—but he was extremely intense nonetheless, and when his back was to the wall, was able to throw his natural caution to the wind and let the dogs out, so to speak. That's why most of the great comebacks in Michigan football history happened under his watch, and also why he was able to break with tradition and give a significant offensive role to his best defensive player, leading to another Heisman and a national title. Extremely devoted to the tradition and reputation of Michigan. Strong part C

Which brings us to Hoke in terms of football personality. Fiery, aggressive, or combative demanding asshole taskmaster chewing players or assistants out either in practice or on the sidelines? Nope. Cerebral offensive or defensive innovator whose ideas and theories are copied by other coaches? Nope. 

Bland, unassuming public demeanor, always saying "the right things" in public, very attentive to program reputation and tradition, very loyal to assistants and players? Bingo.

I think Hoke is a mixture of heavy C with the best elements of D. The big question is whether Hoke is able to assemble a top-notch staff. If he can, he can be very successful. If he doesn't, he won't last.

Don

November 11th, 2013 at 10:46 AM ^

I posted it in another thread in the wake of the MSU game, but it was kind of buried so I doubt if many people read it. It's stuff that's been rattling around in my head for quite a while.

I've been wondering if there's room for a fifth category—something like "Dry Technician/Efficiency Expert" — that might account for guys like Bill Snyder or Don James.

Indiana Blue

November 11th, 2013 at 10:09 AM ^

that leads me to think that the current staff is "top notch".  Recruiting is HUGE and I doubt anyone is going to argue against Hoke and others responsibile for recruiting are not doing a "top notch" job.  

However, Game Day is another story ... a very, very sad indictment of a bad fit for our offensive personnel.

Go Blue! 

animalfarm84

November 11th, 2013 at 10:48 AM ^

I think Hoke on game day is actually quite good.  If we assume that his main responsibility, as a CEO-type HC, is to make in game strategic decisions like FG/Punt/go for it, my sense is that he makes the correct call most of the time.  I haven't seen a rigorous analysis of his in-game calls measured against what advanced stats say he should do, but he's definitely not an annoying, ultra-conservative, punt-from-the-opponent's-35-on-4th-and-1 type coach.

If you pair Hoke with an OL coach that gets the OL to actually block somebody and an OC that reliably calls a good game, I would be more than happy with that.  

BuckiFan

November 11th, 2013 at 11:48 AM ^

The question I have about Hoke is will he demand excellence of his coordinators. Sure Alabama pays huge money to keep Smart around, but do you think for a moment Saban would not cut him loose (in less than flattering fashion) if he Kirby started to slip? Urban's assistants run a bit scared ... see Fickell interview with FAU.

reshp1

November 11th, 2013 at 9:58 AM ^

You said yourself most coaches are only guru's on one side of the ball and have to rely on someone else on the other side and it works fine for lots of teams. There's no real reason it can't work on both sides, as long as whatever is lost in the head coach's schematic contributions are made up for in player development and recruiting on both sides of the ball.

Shaun

November 11th, 2013 at 10:02 AM ^

Even if you do get elite coordinators, you then have to contend with the fact that most great coordinators eventually want to become head coaches. There are exceptions, sure, but in most cases, if you hire a staff of elite coaches, you have to find a replacement for them every few years as they move up the ladder.

This means that your team is good, which is great, but if your head coach isn't the one with the system and the intricate knowledge to implement it, then you are going to have to struggle with a lot of turnover when you lose your great assistants.

If your HC is the "guru" and the one calling the shots, the loss of great coordinators still hurts, but shouldn't be as crippling to the program, as it at least still has the "keeper of the system" on staff.

Schembo

November 11th, 2013 at 10:33 AM ^

I can see that being the case for a program built around a specific offensive philosophy like the spread, but I don't think there's as much of an impact when a defensive coordinator leaves.  I think most DC's run similar base packages and make their living off successfully scouting opponents and making week to week and in-game adjustments.

MI Expat NY

November 11th, 2013 at 10:02 AM ^

I think it's getting tougher to be elite as a CEO type coach.  In the past, when offenses and defense weren't all that advanced, your head coach simply had to get the best players and then be a motivator and things would work out.  These days, with the advancements and huge variety of sytems, just lining up and being more talented than those across the ball doesn't cut it. You have to be able to at least play the coaching matchup to a draw to be truly successful.  

Obviously a CEO type coach can still win, he just needs to have great coordinators on both sides.  Easier said than done.  It's much, much easier when you are a great coordinator and you just need to find one other.  There might also be something to the idea that a CEO type coach is taking one of the limited number of coaches out of the planning process.  A guru head coach supported by a coordinator combining to game plan is probably better than a head coach simply leaving it to his coordinator to put things together.  

Another way to look at things, in the current AP top 10 only Dabo Swinney and maybe Gary Pinkel (I'm not really sure if he's the guy on offense, though he was a longtime OC under Don James before becoming a head coach) would be considered CEO type coaches.  

MI Expat NY

November 11th, 2013 at 12:54 PM ^

Since I think it's getting harder to be the CEO style head coach and still be elite, it's absolutely relevant that Mack Brown's teams have been raging disappointments the past few years. 

Mack Brown is an interesting coach, he's drastically reshaped his offense to match his personnel with Vince Young and then with Colt McCoy.  That and his decision to can Manny Diaz shows what you need to do to be successful as a CEO style coach: constantly adapt and be willing to cut loose underperforming coaches.  We'll see if Hoke has similar abilitites.