evenyoubrutus

September 30th, 2014 at 3:58 PM ^

I swear I will die a happy man if I never heard the word "Michigan Man" again. Do these people not understand that Bo himself WOULD NOT HAVE MET THEIR CURRENT DEFINITION OF THE TERM? And he's the guy that invented it!

Joined: 11/04/2008

MGoPoints: 178179

WolverineHistorian

September 30th, 2014 at 4:08 PM ^

It's one of those phrases that will never die, I'm afraid.  And the reason for that, I think, is because the people who are most vocal in saying it are former players.  I can't tell you how many of them kept saying how happy they were when Hoke was hired because he was a "Michigan Man."  Braylon in particular seemed to say it the most. 

I love these guys.  I grew up worshipping them.  They gave me many happy memories on the field that I will NEVER forget.  But they have got to STFU when it comes to the "Michigan Man," thing. 

Bo was a coaching hire from outside the family and over time, he became the biggest, probably most beloved Michigan man of all time.  Why is that always lost on them? 

Joined: 08/10/2009

MGoPoints: 55466

Bill in Birmingham

September 30th, 2014 at 4:14 PM ^

Agree. Would everyone, media in particular, remember that phrase was used to say that Bill Freaking Freider, the Arizona State coach would not coach Michigan in the NCAA basketball tournament? It was not Bo telling future generations that all Michigan coaches had to have a history with the program. This makes me want to eat glass. As does the thought that we could have had one of the ten best coaches in America for the past four years.

Joined: 08/30/2008

MGoPoints: 7179

funkywolve

September 30th, 2014 at 6:17 PM ^

outside of Harbaugh and Miles there isn't much of a Michigan coaching tree to pull from.  I'd be less then excited if Cameron or Loefler were the head coach.  Bo had a pretty good coaching tree but most of those guys are retired or close to retirement. Mo wasn't around long enough to develop much of a tree and Carr's coaching tree never blossomed.

Joined: 10/08/2008

MGoPoints: 20191

2427_Couzens

September 30th, 2014 at 3:59 PM ^

I'd like to have more of a source than Bruce Feldman just dropping this out there.  Even Stewart Mandel seemed incredulous about it because that info never made it out before.

Joined: 01/21/2011

MGoPoints: 536

Mon-L

September 30th, 2014 at 7:11 PM ^

Uhhhhh. Bruce Feldman might be the most credible CFB writer working today. Breaks loads of news. I would trust him over just about anyone else out there.

Because of his long form work (Meat Market and Swing Your Sword) he gets inside access that others don't. I've read pieces from him where he was inside A&M for a week, behind the scenes at Texas Tech. He's dialed in and gets places no one else does.

Stewart Mandel on the other hand is basically a column slash game report guy. I can't recall a single behind the scenes piece from him or him breaking any real stories.

Joined: 01/04/2011

MGoPoints: 315

GoBlueSimon

September 30th, 2014 at 4:01 PM ^

Dave Brandon considers this hire a success because unlike Bill Martin, he got his first choice.  Granted his first choice isn't the best choice, but it's his first choice.

Joined: 04/15/2013

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Wolverine Devotee

September 30th, 2014 at 4:02 PM ^

Fun: prior to Rich Rodrirguez, guys who had no prior connections to Michigan were 477-106-20 with 7 National Championships and 25 Big Ten Championships. 

But yeah, Michigan Man. That's the quality we need to look for. 

Joined: 06/29/2009

MGoPoints: 31528

Soulfire21

September 30th, 2014 at 4:05 PM ^

To be fair, his resume at the time was with Houston

  • 2008: 8-5
  • 2009: 10-4
  • 2010: 5-7

Yeah, in retrospect he probably would've been a good hire, but that resume doesn't inspire much more (if at all) than Hoke's.  Brandon gets a pass from me for this one.

Joined: 03/18/2010

MGoPoints: 22716

Yeoman

September 30th, 2014 at 4:18 PM ^

...had gone 10-4 and 8-5 the two years before he got there. The reason the job was available in the first place was that Art Briles had already turned the program around and was headed to greener pastures.

Sumlin wasn't a hot commodity until 2011 happened. If Brandon had hired him in 2010 there would have been no end of "why is he hiring a guy that can't even win in C-USA?"

Joined: 06/08/2011

MGoPoints: 21390

alum96

September 30th, 2014 at 5:10 PM ^

Bingo!

Art Briles had the #4 offense in America in 2007 at Houston.  And #46 defense. 

People make it out like Sumlin took over a 2-10 team, installed a magic offense and his genius was apparent.  He continued Briles system and the defense sucked - it dropped from #46 in Briles last year to #100 the next year. 

His 2nd year at Houston the defense was #111 in the country.  The 3rd year #103

We were coming off Rich Rod where we had a top 25 type offense and no defense.  Sumlin looked exactly the same as Rich Rod on paper.  And Rich Rod was toxic at that point.  Sumlin STILL struggles with defense at A&M even with all the talent he can get there.  His defense was #109 in the country last year!

Joined: 04/28/2012

MGoPoints: 82417

Yeoman

September 30th, 2014 at 5:19 PM ^

You need to take raw stats with a grain of salt when somebody's running an extreme tempo. But even tempo-adjusted, Sumlin's defenses have been horrible. If I remember right he's only been in the top half of the country one season out of 7, and that was his first year at A&M.

It really shouldn't be that hard to get your SEC recruits to perform in the top half of FBS.

Joined: 06/08/2011

MGoPoints: 21390

Space Coyote

September 30th, 2014 at 4:34 PM ^

My guy at the time was Charlie Strong, but I liked Sumlin as an up-and-comer and the fact that he had a nice multiple offense at Oklahoma that utilized spread schemes within a pro-style architecture.

That said, Sumlin basically took over a pretty strong Art Briles (Current Baylor HC) Houston program. Briles went 34-28 in five years at Houston, 18-8 in his last two. Sumlin pretty much held serve until the 2011 season (was 23-16 pre-2011).

Now, Sumlin has done well at aTm, but like all successful coaches he's also had some luck he may or may not have had at Michigan. As the 2nd biggest school in Texas, he then took aTm to the best conference that all the kids want to play in at the same time UT was wasting away more talent than Michigan has. He lucked in on Johnny Football because Oregon took another pretty good QB. With Johnny Football, his recruiting really took off.

Now, he ain't coming to Michigan any time soon, though no one would deny he'd be a great hire if by some miricle he did. He has connections to the midwest. He's a Purdue Grad (played LB) and coached seven seasons in the B1G between Minny (WR, QB) and Purdue (WR) before moving onto aTm to be their OC (we're he'd probably be seen as average to above average. In a weird career move after the aTm staff was fired he became the ST/TEs coach at OU and moved up from there.

But yeah, the resume doesn't necessarily jump out immediately for a 2010 hire.

Joined: 06/18/2009

MGoPoints: 38962

FreddieMercuryHayes

September 30th, 2014 at 4:16 PM ^

I mean, it's not the best resume at that time.  But geez, Hoke's included 5 of his 8 seasons having 5 wins or less, took him 6 seasons to get a double digit win, and a total record of 47-50.  If Sumlin's was thin, Hoke's was thinner.  And Sumlin was also an established ass kicking OC at Oklahoma before Houston. 

And at the end of the day, ADs are judged by their decisions being correct.  It may not be fair, but their job is to be correct in their hire.  And Brandon's was certainly not that.

Joined: 12/29/2010

MGoPoints: 40860

Yeoman

September 30th, 2014 at 4:37 PM ^

...I completely agree with any decision not to hire someone whose primary credential was "ass-kicking OC".

What was broken and needed fixing was the defense and there was absolutely no reason at the time  to think Sumlin was the man for the job. And there still isn't: A&M's defense last year was #87 in dFEI, right there between Western Michigan and Bowling Green. His last year at Houston they were #55, between FIU and San Jose State. In 2010, the relevant year for the topic in hand, they were #96.

And I'm picking out his best teams, and using a tempo-adjusted stat.

We had that already. Sumlin for RR would have meant asking Denard to run an Air Raid and leaving the defense as is. What sane person would have jumped at that?

Joined: 06/08/2011

MGoPoints: 21390

mjv

September 30th, 2014 at 4:55 PM ^

Can we stop with the defense under RR being thrown around without the note that RR only had $250k per year for his DC?  

The defense got fixed under Hoke because he had $750k to hire one of the best DCs around in Mattison.  

$250k = GERG

$750k = Mattison

That GERG was the DC in 2010 was entirely Brandon's fault. 

I hate Brandon more than just about anyone else, but I will give him credit for giving Hoke the budget to hire Mattison.  It is just about the only thing that Dave has done to the benefit of the football team.

Now why Borges was getting paid $600k+, I can't figure that out.

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 3656

Yeoman

September 30th, 2014 at 5:12 PM ^

...but they'd never, ever, come anywhere close to 109th out of 120 on defense. And the DCs that were here under RR never came close to that anywhere else either. Shafer's done OK since he left. Even Robinson was able to get Texas turned around last year on that side of the ball.

Dave Brandon didn't force those guys to run a 3-3-5 that they'd never run before.

Dave Brandon didn't host a defensive staff meeting to prepare for a game and not invite the DC. The kneecapping of Scott Shafer was the work of one man, and it wasn't David Brandon.

Joined: 06/08/2011

MGoPoints: 21390

trustBlue

September 30th, 2014 at 8:36 PM ^

The thing you seem to be conveniently ignoring is that Hoke's resume was based on turnarounds of terrible football teams and being an nationally elite recruiter (the later part at least has continued to be true).  Hoke didnt walk into a school coming off a string of winning seasons. At Ball State, Hoke inherited a program that hadnt had a winning season since 1996. The team slogged through mediocitry for the the first 3-4 season under Hoke until 2008 when he led the team to a 12-0 regular season, and the first Top 25 ranking in history of the program. Hoke then went to SDSU, Hoke where he inherited a program that was  2-10 the prior year. The next year they went 4-8 and the following year they went 9-4, their first 9 win season since 1977.

Even though his overall record was basically .500, all his teams had shown massive improvement under his leadership.  Its the same reason that nobody complains about the fact that Jim Harbaugh's FBS coaching record is barely above .500 or that his first three seasons at Stanford were 4-8, 5-7 and 8-5.  

Unlike Sumlin, Hoke had proven himself a two different programs, neither of which he had inherited much of anything to work with.  If you are telling me that it would of looked at both resumes and picked the guy whose only HC experience was 3 years in the C-USA where inherited a 10-4 team and took them to 5-7 -- I'm gonna have to call bullshit.  

Joined: 04/14/2014

MGoPoints: 8169

trustBlue

October 1st, 2014 at 3:38 AM ^

1.  This was resume vs resume comparison of Hoke vs. Sumlin, not Hoke vs. Harbaugh -- not sure why you felt the need to go there.

2.  Like I said, Jim's FBS record is slightly above .500.  U of San Diego an FCS (formerly 1-AA) private catholic school with an total enrollment of 4904 students. He did not win a "national championshp" (LOL) - he won the Pioneer League Confrence Championhip - a Conference of exclusively non-scholarship athletes, where he went up against such stalwart programs as Marist College (enrollment 4200) and Stetson University (enrollment 2200).

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League

3. At lot of the credit for Jim's the turnaround at Stanford was undoubtedly due to the fact he convinced the school to lower the admissions standards for football players when Jim arrived. Stanford has HUGE built in recruiting advantages (academic reputation, gorgeous campus and location, Pac-12 membership, located in #1 or #2 state for recruiting), but was always held back by the fact that its football players had to meet the same academic admission criteria as its regular student body - harder get into than many Ivy League schools. As you might imagine the sheer number of human beings that have BOTH the physical abilities to play major Pac 12 football while ALSO having an IQ somewhere around Bill Gates is astronomically low. 

This notably changed when Jim arrived, which is what allowed Stanford to go after players like Jibril Peppers, Malik McDowell, DaShawn Hand and others - kids who are genuinely smart, hard working kids and who probably did relatively well in class, but probably not in the ELITE. top %0.5-1% of students academically, which make up Stanford's normal student body.  (Before you feel the need to go there - no I dont know for a fact that any of these kids are not straight A students with to 1% SAT scores, but like I said - the odds are astronomically low).

Jim has gone on to prove his ample coaching ability with his success in the NFL, but people are taking the data that we learned about Harbaugh of Sumlin afterward (Harbaugh in NFL, Sumlin 11-2 at Houston and success at A&M) and trying to pretend that their fairly meager resumes prior to that somehow screamed "can't miss future elite coach".  They absolutely did not.

4.  "Great coaches don't take a lifetime to do it.  Bo?  Immediately."

Stop it.  Art Briles went 7-6, 3-8, 6-6 his first three years at Houston, then 4-8, 4-8, 7-6 his first three years at Baylor.  Great coach or no? I could do this all day.  

Joined: 04/14/2014

MGoPoints: 8169

Knight

September 30th, 2014 at 4:17 PM ^

You have to remember that this was before his success at A&M and he just had a poor season the previous year at Houston. He was pretty highly regarded but not like he is now. Also there was the whole "another spread offense" concern. Although his was more pass oriented than Rich Rod's, the argument some had was a pass focused spread offense would not be as effective in the Big Ten/inconsistent northern climate. It is easy to look back and say that Sumlin should have been the choice, but it is not like he was clearly the best option available at the time. 

Joined: 09/16/2010

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